MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 May 2020 21:22

Manish_Sharma wrote:
somdev wrote:Indira Gandhi forced Soviet jets upon India for her own selfish reasons

Are you claiming that USA was ready to sell f16 to Bharat in 70s when usa gave f16s to Porkistan, but Indira deliberately refused to take f16s?

Somdev, do you have a source to back up that claim?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vivek K » 07 May 2020 21:36

In those days (pre-1971) US was trying to block Indian purchases from France and Russia and make India buy the British Lightning. So there was no other fighter available. But I would like to see if the materials and learn about the Mig purchase.

Every a/c purchased has helped one politician or the other. IAF needs to learn to stand their ground ultimately and not bow down before these snakes.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 May 2020 21:44

Somdev, since you brought up the topic of the Israeli Mirages which evolved into Nesher and Kfir, can you please also advise on the Lavi program?

Why did the Lavi program not succeed as the Nesher and Kfir programs did?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 May 2020 21:45

somdev wrote:Forget about everything we were forced to believe. Israel is a pariah state because of excessive mollycoddling with PLO and Arafat clan!

Now you are trolling Sir. This is your first and last warning.

I have banned you for a month for making this statement.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 07 May 2020 23:55

Karan M wrote:
somdev wrote:
Karanji agreed ... all valid points. Structural reinforcement from the ground up to increase number of hours, or additional tanks, maneuvering factors all very valid. But there is also commonality and evolution to F35s. Also, India will never become an aggressor force even against Pakistan. We will continue with our defense posturing and a few standoff strikes. So operationally how much of agility is required is a question mark.


This is a very very dangerous assumption to make. What you are saying is we really don't need top of the line aircraft as we will never go to war against Pak. How do we know? Was Kargil not a limited war? What if it had escalated? Second, the assumption that even stand-off strikes will not precipitate an air war and a BVR fight where agility counts for as much as EW in order to rapidly avoid incoming ordinance.

Additionally, this assertion can become a self fulfilling prophecy. If we never have our forces equipped to a level where we can easily overwhelm the pakis then the option of escalation to a full conflict after a Pulwama or 26/11 like provocation is permanently off the table. This will embolden the pakis even more into continuing such attacks, knowing that our options are limited to artillery duels on the LoC or at the most Balakot style limited attacks once in a blue moon.

This goes beyond just the AF and leads to questions like "Why do we need tanks if we're never going to use them?" type questions floating around.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 08 May 2020 00:26

Karan M wrote:
Kartik wrote:Whatever anyone wants to say, the F-16 is and will continue to remain a great fighter into the coming decades as well. For me, from a cost vs capability POV, the F-21 was right next to the Rafale. Rafale being costlier to acquire and with higher operating costs and costlier weapons.

From the Paki POV, it would have been a morale breaker to see the latest and most advanced F-16 variant in IAF colors when it isn't available to them and even if it was, they cannot afford it in any meaningful numbers.

All of which is now seemingly moot, given that the MRCA will most likely be canned or just continue to meander meaninglessly without ever resulting in a contract.


If the US offers a great deal you might still see it in the IAF.


If at all the RFP was released, I have no doubt that the F-21 would be one of the most competitive offerings in terms of price and capability.

I somehow doubt that it will happen though, Karan. Can't see how anything can be offered by the US until a RFP is released and all other contenders get the same set of requirements to meet. And that RFP release and response itself will be dragged out for years.

My guess is a follow-on order for 36 more Rafale fighters sometime in 2024 or so, and that could well be it for fighter imports.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_Sharma » 08 May 2020 08:48

somdev wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:
Are you claiming that USA was ready to sell f16 to Bharat in 70s when usa gave f16s to Porkistan, but Indira deliberately refused to take f16s?


No I am not claiming that. USA was a pariah for Congress as they were on payrolls of Soviets. Israel went for Mirages, license built them, evolved Nesher, Kfir. They managed to induce a domestic ecosystem for aerospace components. We ran the production line for Soviet factories!


No you are wrong.

Bharat was pariah for usa.

USA chose Dictatorial commie China over Bharat to make it production factory of west. If usa wanted they could have chosen Bharat over china but usa didn't.

Even now they want to control and colonise us by cismoa lemoa etc. and sell us weapon platform so they 3control us by threatening to sanction us.

LCA Tejas is late because USA sanctioned us in 1998, our Seaking Helicopters were grounded as its parts that were coming from usa were sanctioned.

Even now in case there's war with porkis c17s, c130s, chinooks, p8i et al will be grounded by USA sanctions.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 09 May 2020 01:43

nachiket wrote:
Karan M wrote:
This is a very very dangerous assumption to make. What you are saying is we really don't need top of the line aircraft as we will never go to war against Pak. How do we know? Was Kargil not a limited war? What if it had escalated? Second, the assumption that even stand-off strikes will not precipitate an air war and a BVR fight where agility counts for as much as EW in order to rapidly avoid incoming ordinance.

Additionally, this assertion can become a self fulfilling prophecy. If we never have our forces equipped to a level where we can easily overwhelm the pakis then the option of escalation to a full conflict after a Pulwama or 26/11 like provocation is permanently off the table. This will embolden the pakis even more into continuing such attacks, knowing that our options are limited to artillery duels on the LoC or at the most Balakot style limited attacks once in a blue moon.

This goes beyond just the AF and leads to questions like "Why do we need tanks if we're never going to use them?" type questions floating around.


Precisely. I agree we can't buy uber expensive gold plated gear, but we can't lock ourselves into stuff that may not meet our requirements, just because we won't go to war anyways.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 09 May 2020 01:45

Kartik wrote:
Karan M wrote:
If the US offers a great deal you might still see it in the IAF.


If at all the RFP was released, I have no doubt that the F-21 would be one of the most competitive offerings in terms of price and capability.

I somehow doubt that it will happen though, Karan. Can't see how anything can be offered by the US until a RFP is released and all other contenders get the same set of requirements to meet. And that RFP release and response itself will be dragged out for years.

My guess is a follow-on order for 36 more Rafale fighters sometime in 2024 or so, and that could well be it for fighter imports.


No money, no honey. On a combat capability level, the airframe, sensors may be behind those on the Rafale in some ways, but the true USP of the F-16 is the amount of weapons, and mission kits it comes with. From AAMs, to LGBs, to SDBs to ARMs, to AShMs.. IMHO that's what makes it really potent.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 May 2020 03:17

karan cant we do the same with Mk1? or even Mk1A. I know you could argue that F16 is ready and and Tejas is not..but with each passing day the case against F16 is growing stronger if you ask me..the production line will close soon if it hasnt already ...we would be less at the mercy of US than we are today..i do see some benefit in managing (and not appeasing) trump for the broader benefit such as trade deal..or discounted prices (expecting it through a real estate agent who prides on art of making a deal is too much though). Net net i do not see a military case for F16, but strong political case i think there may be a better value in F18 if it can be made to work on our carriers..growler production has restarted..if things can be worked out that may be a more potent platform to our needs and can bring what we dont have right now and will not be having for a foreseeable future..

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 09 May 2020 05:18

Karan M wrote:
Kartik wrote:
If at all the RFP was released, I have no doubt that the F-21 would be one of the most competitive offerings in terms of price and capability.

I somehow doubt that it will happen though, Karan. Can't see how anything can be offered by the US until a RFP is released and all other contenders get the same set of requirements to meet. And that RFP release and response itself will be dragged out for years.

My guess is a follow-on order for 36 more Rafale fighters sometime in 2024 or so, and that could well be it for fighter imports.


No money, no honey. On a combat capability level, the airframe, sensors may be behind those on the Rafale in some ways, but the true USP of the F-16 is the amount of weapons, and mission kits it comes with. From AAMs, to LGBs, to SDBs to ARMs, to AShMs.. IMHO that's what makes it really potent.


Yes no doubt the Rafale stands above the F-16 in terms of it's airframe and FCS and possibly even sensors.

But the F-16 Block 70 is no slouch by any means and nearly every fighter pilot interview I've read or heard (and I'm talking of several), has pilots only talking good about the F-16's capabilties in the air. As I recall, even a Rafale pilot stated that it was the F-16 that he found to be a good surprise. This would've been in close combat DACT. A F-21 with the newer gen AESA, sensors and updated cockpit MFDs is only going to be better.

As you rightly said, the sheer number of weapons that it brings to the table, and at much more affordable prices than what the French do, is it's USP. That and it's price point both on acquisition costs and life cycle costs which make it the most affordable of the MRCA contenders while being nearly the most effective.

BRF is biased against the F-16 and I know why, but I can tell you that if tomorrow PAF was to get 36 F-16Vs, it would be a very uncomfortable feeling.

Hushkit Rafale interview
Which aircraft have you flown DACT against?
“Against F-16, against Typhoon, against Super Hornets. Against Harrier. Against Alpha Jet. Against Mirage 2000.”

…which was the most challenging?
“The F-16 is pretty cool. Typhoon is a joke, very easy to shoot. F-16 actually was a good surprise actually, I found it to be a pretty good aircraft. I think the most challenging was the F-16, it’s a pretty small jet so it’s easy to lose sight of it. So I think that was the big one.
The Harrier can really turn around pretty fast, so you have to play it very close so you have to be careful with that. And with the Alpha Jet don’t go into a slow fight with it. It can manoeuvre and do some rolls at pretty low speed, some barrel rolls at pretty low speeds so you really want to pay attention. You can easily be tricked at low speed by an Alpha Jet. So you want to keep your energy high.”

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 09 May 2020 07:11

I am not saying the F-16V is a slouch. But a Su-30 even today, with a proper SPJ EW suite + Astra against the Viper with APG-83 + AIM-120 C7/8 has a good chance. Against the Rafale with Meteor, its severely disadvantaged.

The Rafale pilot above is of course going to slag the Typhoon, but frankly, it can kill the Rafale as much as the Rafale claims to have the advantage. He was merely using the right tactics, i.e. a dash from low level and trying to get the EF by surprise. Qn is what would happen if they mixed tactics. It too has Meteor, and once Captor-E arrives, all bets are off about claiming the low signature of the Rafale and Spectra would be sufficient to still deny a BVR shot.

In short, I don't think 36 F-16V's in PAFs hand would change the equation.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby TushS » 10 May 2020 14:50

Karan M wrote:No money, no honey. On a combat capability level, the airframe, sensors may be behind those on the Rafale in some ways, but the true USP of the F-16 is the amount of weapons, and mission kits it comes with. From AAMs, to LGBs, to SDBs to ARMs, to AShMs.. IMHO that's what makes it really potent.


I think armaments should be a secondary concern. Sooner or later Rafale will get ample varieties of armaments and mission kits but the F-16/21 would be having less scope to further enhance its sensors and avionics.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Pratyush » 10 May 2020 18:01

Manish_Sharma wrote:
somdev wrote:Indira Gandhi forced Soviet jets upon India for her own selfish reasons


Are you claiming that USA was ready to sell f16 to Bharat in 70s when usa gave f16s to Porkistan, but Indira deliberately refused to take f16s?


If India was in not in soviet orbit, would the US still have relations with TSP??

Things are more complicated but not that complicated.

What about the refusal to pay for the development of the HF 24 engines.

Migs were never the first choice of the IAF the F 104 was.

The USA assisted India inspite of not not being allied with India in 62. Imposed sanctions on TSP in 65. Yet it supported TSP in 71. why?

Emotions may be satisfying, but don't reflect the complete picture.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Nihat » 10 May 2020 18:11

Given the level of fiscal impact we are going through on account of the Chinese virus, I seriously doubt MRCA will go through. With every passing day it's looking more and more unlikely.

There might be a silver lining or an opportunity, given the user perspective to finally push for more rafale and lca.

One can certainly hope

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Larry Walker » 10 May 2020 19:10

CDS asking to increase domestic content in LCA - I am assuming this is clearest sign of LCA Mk2 ending up as MMRCA

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 11 May 2020 08:03

Acquisition of Sov. aircraft and weaponry from the '60s onwards were entirely due to two factors.
Firstly,the refusal of western nations to give India what it wanted.
The US even refused modest A-4 Skyhawks for the Vikrant.Pakistan,a CENTO member was its favourite and in the '65 war, the west were rooting for Pak, and pushed for a ceasefire only when we were on the point of taking Lahore.Lowly little Gnats
ccame from Britain,no subs which we asked for so Mrs. G,Tthe second factor turned to Moscow.

Mrs.G's excellent feel for diplomacy saw her reach out to Moscow and the Soviets responded in full.MIG-21s,SU-7s,T-54/55s and PT-76 tanks, Foxtrot subs,Osa missile boats,etc., all came at friendship prices and licence manufacture too. That eqpt. enabled us to dismember Pak in '71.

Today Pak has learnt its lessons well and is using China as we did
Moscow earlier,as its main source of milware. At low cost,Pak is rapidly building up all arms of its forces especially its navy.New DDGs,FFGs,8+8 new subs,plus a range of naval missiles, will make the PN a formidable foe especially its sub force.
The GOI is being very myopic in not giving a higher share of the def. budget to the IN which is rapidly being outnumbered by the growth of both the PLAN and PN.

In the air,thanks to grand theft,the Chins have acquired the very latest western tech. for the PLAAF.Stealth fighters and 4+ gen aircraft ,clones of the SU-27/30 are being churned out in large number,to the extent that China feels confident that it can defeat the US in the S.China Sea/ Indo-China Sea.

The MMRCA 2.0 was started primarily to offest the excruciating delay of Tejas,both in performance and production. But typically,our great babus screwed up the initial plan to acquire only a light SE fighter.By now had it not been interfered with,thanks to alleged Yanqui pressure, we would've had in service at least 2 sqds. of the Gripen .Gripen radars ,engines and other key components could've also been used in Tejas,shortening development and production time.Once again the mixing up of light,med. and heavy fighters has begun another pointless exercise which will end in total disaster.Aircraft like the F-15SE,SU-35 which weren't in the running last time are in the race with the nags who were " also-rans" in the last race!
Fortunately CV has saved us."Pockets are empty, the cupboard is bare and the GOI has no money to spare",pardon the rhyme, but this acute financial depression may enlighten the princes of babudom and their political masters of the way forward.

I was reading recently a review of the Series 2.0 of this comedy.Some interesting facts,plus other historical input. .It was Mrs.G. who wanted the M2K not the IAF initially,as she saw the lessons of the Falkland War and western eqpt. success. Both M2Ks and MIG-29s were acquired to counter Paki F-16s.The IAF again didn't want the SU-30, but thanks to the foresight of the ACM of the day,was pushed through. The delay in acquiring the Rafale by the Modi govt. ,should've been done when they first took over, is attributed by some to the heavy lobbying by Yankee-Doodle,wanting to scupper the Rafale choice. Babus and politicos also fondly imagine that if they haggle and haggle over prices,they would fall,instead ended up paying more for less as we did with the Rafale.Just 36 birds for around $8B+, when the original costs were for around 120 for about $10B.Furthermore,no TOT has come with it. We have still not developed and put into production the Kaveri engine,a debacle that still sucks out funds into its sinking bank.

HAL have for decades been very patchy absorbing fiirang tech.The IAF for decades have been p*ssed off with HAL's production rate and quality.Old-timers recall how no two MIG-21s were alike on delivery! LCA production as HAL jogs along, will mean 8 years to build around 120 Tejas birds. A 4th-gen bird flying in the skies filled with 5th-gen aircraft and drones.Another comparison is the way China builds,using the " dumpling" method.Building as many as possible fast,then upgrading with the next batch as is being done with Paki JF-17s.making the latest avatars decent bumchums with their F-16s. We want our bird to fly with everything including the kitchen sink in current tech. So Tejas is obese and slow on the draw waiting for a more powerful engine,the HF-24 redux! We lost the plot long ago as it was intended to be a straightforward MIG-21 replacement not a pocket M2K.

Balakot has brought out certain truths. Modern air battles between matching foes begins at the BVR phase.Larger aircraft carrying more powerful radars and EW/ ECM eqpt. get first bite at the cherry. Once the BVR phase has ended,its the WVR AAMs and dogfighting pilot and aircraft ability.Here smaller aircraft without matching BVR capability will lose out to larger birds with more powerful radar/detecting ability plus their larger payloads. The IAF would be better served by acquiring extra numbers of frontline aircraft already in service,heavy,med. and light,all types upgraded, pursuing Tejas' success to the max at relentless speed,than acquiring yet another type for the IAF's aviary.

As they say,the first time in history an event ends in tragedy,the second time it repeats itself as farce!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 11 May 2020 22:38

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 58912?s=20 ---> You’ve got to be kidding me! Dozens of laboratories and facilities, 100s of patents, 10,000s of engineers, scores of sub-systems all created as a result of the LCA project without even talking of the actual LCA platform. All for under $3 billion or about two F-21 squadrons.

Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby abhik » 11 May 2020 22:55

Why two squadrons F-21? Why not say 0.8 Rafael?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 11 May 2020 22:58

You will have to ask him. Click on the link above though...nice back-and-forth.

My guess would be that he believes (and I agree with him) the F-21 is a waste of money. May be a nice plane, but it does not represent good value for India. Nothing of value will India get from such a contract with Lockheed Martin. The same is true for all the other contestants in the MMRCA contest.

If with $3 billion, India was able to achieve this much (as illustrated in the picture above)...imagine what would happen if India invested $20 billion (minimum cost of MMRCA 2.0 contest) of FOREX in these and other labs in the country?

You get what you pay for. Invest in your own MIC and not someone else's.

Ghar ki Murgi Daal Barabar

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 12 May 2020 00:25

Karan M wrote:No money, no honey. On a combat capability level, the airframe, sensors may be behind those on the Rafale in some ways, but the true USP of the F-16 is the amount of weapons, and mission kits it comes with. From AAMs, to LGBs, to SDBs to ARMs, to AShMs.. IMHO that's what makes it really potent.

On the flipside all these weapons will have to be bought new for a rather large amount. There are few weapons currently available with the IAF that the F-16 can use. And almost none of the new ones can be used by any other aircraft in IAF service.

To be fair, the Rafale has the same problem, except for whatever weapons it can share with the M2k.

We know exactly what will happen if the F-16 is bought. The cost of all the armaments will be so enormous that we will buy a relatively tiny quantity of each and will have to think 100 times about using them. Not to mention the ever present sword of damocles in the form of the US govt. shutting off spares/arms sales in the event of a conflict.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Larry Walker » 12 May 2020 01:18

abhik wrote:Why two squadrons F-21? Why not say 0.8 Rafael?


Maybe because the capabilities created are up to the level of designing and manufacturing F-21 capability aircraft and Rafale is a generation ahead currently for which these labs don't have the capability ??

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vivek K » 12 May 2020 01:59

Great find Admiral saar! Very well put. Compare this to the investment in the Rafale and the M2K - no learning benefit nor any technical enhancement locally.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Indranil » 12 May 2020 05:17

Larry Walker wrote:Maybe because the capabilities created are up to the level of designing and manufacturing F-21 capability aircraft and Rafale is a generation ahead currently for which these labs don't have the capability ??

Can you list out a design and manufacturing technique used in F-21 which doesn't exist on the LCA?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 12 May 2020 05:30

Indranil wrote:
Larry Walker wrote:Maybe because the capabilities created are up to the level of designing and manufacturing F-21 capability aircraft and Rafale is a generation ahead currently for which these labs don't have the capability ??

Can you list out a design and manufacturing technique used in F-21 which doesn't exist on the LCA?


I can point out one- the single piece frameless polycarbonate-acrylic canopy. We'll need it for the AMCA.

But the rest of the airplane uses manufacturing techniques that are already used on the Tejas. No big manufacturing tech gain there to be had with the F-21.

Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 12 May 2020 06:20

TushS wrote:
Karan M wrote:No money, no honey. On a combat capability level, the airframe, sensors may be behind those on the Rafale in some ways, but the true USP of the F-16 is the amount of weapons, and mission kits it comes with. From AAMs, to LGBs, to SDBs to ARMs, to AShMs.. IMHO that's what makes it really potent.


I think armaments should be a secondary concern. Sooner or later Rafale will get ample varieties of armaments and mission kits but the F-16/21 would be having less scope to further enhance its sensors and avionics.


Entire point of the MMRCA was to rapidly boost extant IAF capabilities. Different matter as to what actually occurred.

We will eventually have a tremendous amount of local capability deployed on the Flankers and Tejas for instance, but it will take time.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Khalsa » 12 May 2020 15:10

Rakesh wrote:Ghar ki Murgi Daal Barabar



Sat_Bachan !!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Larry Walker » 12 May 2020 15:55

Indranil wrote:
Larry Walker wrote:Maybe because the capabilities created are up to the level of designing and manufacturing F-21 capability aircraft and Rafale is a generation ahead currently for which these labs don't have the capability ??

Can you list out a design and manufacturing technique used in F-21 which doesn't exist on the LCA?


Other way round. I am saying our technology and manufacturing capabilities are at par with that of F-21, but we have some distance to cover to come upto Rafale stds. Hence the comparision that money spent in buying a couple of squadrons of F-21 types if invested in domestic RnD will give us capability to manufacture that level of aircrafts.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Indranil » 12 May 2020 21:06

Kartik wrote:
Indranil wrote:Can you list out a design and manufacturing technique used in F-21 which doesn't exist on the LCA?


I can point out one- the single piece frameless polycarbonate-acrylic canopy. We'll need it for the AMCA.

But the rest of the airplane uses manufacturing techniques that are already used on the Tejas. No big manufacturing tech gain there to be had with the F-21.

F-35 did not go for it. Neither did the PAKFA or the J-20.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby abhik » 12 May 2020 21:13

^^^
IMO folks have spent a little too much time ogling at Rafale's brochures, I'm yet to understand what unobtanium tech it has. And anyway we are not getting any "ToT" for it.

Added: The full scale of MRCA v1.5 (i.e. 36 Rafale) boondoggle will become very apparent with in the next 10 years i think.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 12 May 2020 21:26

abhik wrote:^^^
IMO folks have spent a little too much time ogling at Rafale's brochures, I'm yet to understand what unobtanium tech it has. And anyway we are not getting any "ToT" for it.

Added: The full scale of MRCA v1.5 (i.e. 36 Rafale) boondoggle will become very apparent with in the next 10 years i think.

Please use quotes when replying to someone's post. Easier to follow the flow of discussion. Please edit your post.

There was never any ToT on the Rafale. There was only going to be ToP (Transfer of Production). That stipulation was there in MMRCA 1.0, in the SEF contest, but not in the 36 Rafale contract. No manufacturer is going to hand us their crown jewels (Single Crystal Blade, GaN foundry, etc).

ToT is an erroneous term fabricated by the MoD in North Block to publish in their annual brochure the stellar work the Indian aviation industry is doing. India licensed produced the MiG-21, the MiG-27, the Su-30MKI, the Jaguar, etc. What has India learned from ToP? A Su-30MKI made in India costs more than getting it from Russia. But publishing in the annual MoD achievement brochure - about Rambha production - makes good press.

A few years back, the Babus claimed that the AL-31FP turbofan is now being produced from the raw material stage. If so, why has Kaveri not achieved success? There is a world of a difference between production and manufacturing.

MMRCA 2.0 will be the same story, despite the few on BRF who claim that purchasing an American bird (F-15, F-16 or F-18) will magically transform India's aviation industry. These folks are pulling the same stunt that the OEMs pull on the MoD in North Block.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 12 May 2020 21:34

What India has learnt from the Tejas program (~35 aircraft to date) is far more valuable than license producing the hundreds of MiG-21s, MiG-27s, Su-30MKIs and Jaguars.

And the Tejas program will be far more valuable than license producing 114 F-21s or F-15EX or F-18E/F or Rafale or Eurofighter or Gripen E or MiG-35 or Su-35.

There is a world of a difference between production (screwdrivergiri) and manufacturing (the Tejas program). How could Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2, TEDBF, ORCA, TEJEX exist if there was no Tejas TD (Technology Demonstrator)?

It is the Tejas program that causes so much takleef to the few on BRF who argue for MMRCA contract. Some gems from their previous posts over the years;

* Not selecting an American bird in the MMRCA contest will result in shutting down all the Joint Working Committees (i.e. JETJWG) between India and the US.
* Tejas was a valiant effort, but the program should be shut down and invest energies directly to the AMCA program.
* Go in for the cheapest and widely produced fourth generation fighter i.e. F-16.
* Purchasing F-16 is India's down payment for engine tech from the US.
* What will Tejas do against PAF F-16s or against Chinese J-20s?
* Tejas Mk2 will never come.

The last one causes the greatest burnol and heartburn. Arrival of Mk2 will spell the end of MMRCA 2.0

When one strategy fails, then switch-and-bait to another ---> American Exceptionalism, Job Creation, American Industry, Rolling other sectors of the Economy, Strategic Alignment with America, Chinese Threat....the list goes on. Have seen it all.

And heaven forbid, if you ask these Tier 1 industry experts on BRF any probing questions. You will be labelled as being dense and narrow minded. Salvation for India's aviation industry can only come from America. We SDRE Indians obviously cannot do it ourselves.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 May 2020 22:05

^^i have lost count of which time i am seeing such post in my brf lifetime....the only good thing that gives me peace is everytime the case for tejas gets stronger...this time it is much stronger than the 2008 case when the MMRCA saga was in full flow....as i have said earlier that it is like an ekta kapoor serial which refuses to end...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 12 May 2020 23:41

Totally agree with Rakesh 's views.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nam » 13 May 2020 00:19

Larry Walker wrote:Other way round. I am saying our technology and manufacturing capabilities are at par with that of F-21, but we have some distance to cover to come upto Rafale stds. Hence the comparision that money spent in buying a couple of squadrons of F-21 types if invested in domestic RnD will give us capability to manufacture that level of aircrafts.


The thing is, if LCA is build with absolutely no removable panels, it will look super smooth, like plastic. The reason being you just need to create a single piece of composite structure, with no absolutely no rivets on the surface.

Needless to say this is not a practical proposition. Rafale lose super smooth because 1) they have managed to reduce the number of access panel 2) they do lot of surface smoothing by hand before every sortie.

The first is a design issue, which manufacturing cannot solve. Second one is a maintenance process of using low RCS surface paint.

Not saying we cannot learn anything from Rafale production, but we tend to think smooth finish is due to some high end manufacturing, which we SDRE cannot create.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 13 May 2020 07:37

^^^
From Broadsword archives ...

29 December 2013
“ ... Now we will implement absolute standardisation, with identical components, assemblies and panels,” explains Sridharan.

This is being done with laser scanners that ensure that a number of key points (called “locators”) on each aircraft being built is exactly where it should be. By measuring with the laser, it is ensured that the locator is within 80 microns, i.e. about one-tenth of a millimetre, of where it should be. These are international standards, used by companies like Boeing.”

1 October 2014
“On an earlier visit to the HAL’s new production line, Business Standard learned that Tejas production tolerances are as tight as 0.08 millimetres; and 0.2 millimetres for contoured (curved) parts.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Khalsa » 13 May 2020 15:53

Rakesh wrote:What India has learnt from the Tejas program (~35 aircraft to date) is far more valuable than license producing the hundreds of MiG-21s, MiG-27s, Su-30MKIs and Jaguars.


Rakesh wrote:How could Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2, TEDBF, ORCA, TEJEX exist if there was no Tejas TD (Technology Demonstrator)?


Rakesh wrote:We SDRE Indians obviously cannot do it ourselves.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 13 May 2020 19:30

One task that will save a lot of time.Select the engine for the AMCA.Evaluate 3 western,US,UK,French and one Ru engine in depth. It will have to come with TVC too. One must not hesitate to do some redesigning of the AMCA so that it has apart from stealth features, both powerful enough engines and a worthwhile package of internal weaponry. Otherwise,a $75-80M AMCA is a poorer bargainthan a $100M heavyweight stealth fighter such as the SU-57 if it can carry double AMCA's payload.Plus a heavy stealth fighter will also have a larger better radar,more endurance and combat radius withoutrefuelling.

Time to also examine the option of an SE LCA with better stealth.If we can pull it off,it will be a world beater.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 13 May 2020 20:43

Link sent to me by a dear friend.

https://twitter.com/thedewline/status/1 ... 67616?s=21 ---> In-flight software updates? That would be quite impressive.

"The end goal is for future F-16 software updates to be released on-demand and received in-flight without having to land."

Software innovations makes F-16 more capable
https://www.eglin.af.mil/News/Article-D ... e-capable/
29 April 2020

Link above is from an official USAF website. So not fake.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 13 May 2020 20:44

^^^^^
Some of the twitter responses to the tweet and link above....some are hilarious!!

https://twitter.com/Satcom_Guru/status/ ... 96576?s=20 ---> Software packages have to secured. Unbundling will likely need to be done while online. Software delivery, or staging, can be done whenever bandwidth is available. Executable software updates are usually restricted to be on-ground only. Configurable data can be changed in-flight.

https://twitter.com/aerohistorian/statu ... 01986?s=20 ---> I’m trying to imagine what software update would enable such impressive capability increase that needing to install it immediately inflight outweighs the obvious risk of crashing due to a bug or faulty installation.

https://twitter.com/SteveDaly15/status/ ... 88704?s=20 ---> Threat library for the EW system, and possible operating modes. Weapons employment parameters, and maybe evasion tactics guidance on the HUD. I can see several places updates, on the fly (sorry), could be useful.

https://twitter.com/Marc_Topaz/status/1 ... 26565?s=20 ---> And an even bigger vulnerability in that case. At least in a piloted aircraft, the pilot could sense that something isn't functioning correctly, even if it's not crashing, and shut that system off. A truly autonomous aircraft would blindly follow the new software.

https://twitter.com/Jeb_Hoge/status/126 ... 48069?s=20 ---> "Stick's shaking!"

"Oh, we enabled haptic feedback by default. Do you like it?"

https://twitter.com/darren_olivier/stat ... 46208?s=20 ---> "Crashed? What do you mean it crashed? Are you talking about the update or the plane?"

https://twitter.com/DrChrisCombs/status ... 02400?s=20 ---> There’s absolutely no way this could go wrong.....

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