MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Barath »

There is also the possibility of adding 26 naval Rafales
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by sankum »

Prudent decision to cut MRFA to 57 nos. Now IAF will have to go for 9 sq Tejas mk2 by 2035 to reach 42 sq.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Pratyush »

The LCA because it's an indigenous product. Can be ordered in numbers and will be a net addition to the Indian economy as well.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Prem Kumar »

Rakesh wrote:Nihat Saar, remember this line?

"We must have 114 MRFA. There is no Plan B."
Rakesh: did someone actually say that??

Though the BW news item is music to our ears, it still talks about

1) Local-manufacturing once the G2G deal is siged
2) A global competition

I hope the stupidity stops and neither of the above happen. Modi & RNS can visit France, ink the paper, announce a direct purchase and be done with this tamasha. Its too much to expect sense from the services leadership, sadly. They seem to live in their own Matrix.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ks_sachin »

Yes. I think the current Air Chief or the previous one.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:Rakesh: did someone actually say that??
Oh yes. Absolutely. Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne actually said that. See below. The cheek of him to mention this publicly.

IAF Chief Sounds First Anxious Note On MMRCA
https://www.livefistdefence.com/iaf-chi ... s-note-on/
04 Oct 2013
We have no back-up plan. We need to get the deal going, or we’ll face a big shortfall of fighters in the 2017-22 period,” said Browne at his annual press conference ahead of Air Force Day on October 8. “The deal has to work. There’s no other option.”
This was for 126 MMRCA. ACM Browne was also instrumental in stifling the HTT-40 BTA (Basic Trainer Aircraft) program. His successor - Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha - took MMRCA to stratospheric levels. See below...

India needs 200-250 Rafales to maintain edge: Arup Raha
https://www.livemint.com/Politics/hHJn9 ... -Raha.html
28 Dec 2016

126 was only the first batch. Another 63 more were to be acquired. That is 189 aircraft. That was the initial plan. But ACM Raha wanted 200 - 250 of these birds. You know the irony in that statement from ACM Raha? Even France does not operate that many Rafales. If Air HQ had its way, India was ready to operate more Rafales than even France! ACM Raha's successor - ACM Dhanoa - continued with the MRFA boondoggle. 114 MRFA must come or the sky will fall on our head!

It took a war in Ukraine for these guys to finally see the light. Or perhaps it is the GOI/MoD that finally put their foot down to this nonsense. But think how scary this situation is. Imagine, instead of Ukraine...this war was on our soil. I don't even want to fathom that. It sends shivers down my spine to think the horse blinders these senior military leaders have.

ACM Dhanoa's successor came like a breath of fresh air. ACM Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria also mentioned that the 114 MRFA program is ongoing, but there was a greater push with the Tejas program. And there is a reason for that. ACM Bhadauria Sir is unique among IAF pilots. He is one of only five pilots - in the ENTIRE history of the Indian Air Force since 1932 - to earn three coveted qualifications ---> Qualified Flying Instructor (QFI), Experimental Test Pilot (ETP) and TACDE (Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment) graduate.

There have been thousands of pilots since 1932 that have earned their flying wings with the IAF and many are QFIs or ETPs or TACDE graduates, but only five have earned all three qualifications in the IAF. And he is one of those five. And believe me, it is NOT easy to earn even one of these qualifications. But to have three qualifications, you have to think way beyond the top of your game. It is this VERY experience of his that made him realize that the Tejas program has tremendous value. He was able to exploit both the program and the aircraft. He was closely involved with the Tejas program since her inception. So he clearly understood the Tejas' capability.

ACM Bhadauria's professional competitor - for the office of Chief of Air Staff - Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar is another gem. Nambi Sir was the back up pilot on 04 Jan 2001 - the date of the first flight of Tejas TD-1. If anything happened to Wing Commander Rajiv Kothiyal on that day, it would have been Nambi Sir who would have taken TD-1 to the skies. As a side note, Nambi Sir was the pilot who successfully bombed Tiger Hill in Kargil 1999. A top notch Mirage 2000 pilot, he too was closely involved with the Tejas program. He has full faith in the program and is one of the few ardent supporters - in the Indian Air Force - of the Tejas Mk2.

But ACM Bhadauria's successor - ACM VR Chaudhari - dreams of 114 MRFA when he goes to sleep and wakes up with 114 MRFA on his lips. All previous Air Chiefs - from ACM Raha onwards - have flown the Tejas Mk1. He has yet to. But he got time to fly the Japanese F2 in Japan, but has not found a single moment - since he took over as Air Chief - to fly the Tejas Mk1. It is amazing.

Don't get me wrong. None of these Air Chiefs are traitors or betrayers of the country. They know their service in and out and they are very loyal to their service. If you fly with them, they have got your back. But that is where it ends. The problem is the insular nature of the services. They live only within their bubble of the Indian Air Force. They are unable to see (or just refuse to) issues like affordability and self reliance. They could care less about minor quibbles like that.

You have to understand that these guys are all fighter jocks. They live and breathe 9G, super maneuverability, missile racks, precision guided weaponry, uber powerful turbofans and all the other technical wizardry that comes with modern fighter aircraft. After nearly four decades of doing only that day in and day out, they are unable to see the bigger picture. Their only job is to safe guard the skies of India and take the fight to the enemy. And they do that job damn well. But Self Reliance, Investing within the Nation, Supporting Local Programs are alien and foreign concepts to them. The Army and Navy are no different.

But deny the services a capability (nuclear powered ballistic missile submarines) and see how quickly the services, the bureaucracy and the Govt of the day all rally together and churn out a platform. That is one of the many problems present with the acquisition process - the choice.

Sorry for the long reply.
Prem Kumar wrote:Though the BW news item is music to our ears, it still talks about

1) Local-manufacturing once the G2G deal is siged
2) A global competition

I hope the stupidity stops and neither of the above happen. Modi & RNS can visit France, ink the paper, announce a direct purchase and be done with this tamasha. Its too much to expect sense from the services leadership, sadly. They seem to live in their own Matrix.
1 and 2 are continuation of the foolishness. No OEM is going to transfer a line for 57 aircraft. It is not financially feasible for them.

So more back and forth delays. And Air HQ will continue to hold out on the Tejas, while waiting for the mythical unicorn called MRFA.

After MRFA comes in the year 2250, then we can induct Tejas. Atmanirbhar Bharat.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by bala »

Rakesh wrote:No OEM is going to transfer a line for 57 aircraft. It is not financially feasible for them.
Admiralji, the above gyan is kinda different than what you argued sometime ago. You said that anyone would do it for the sake of order and they will make it up by charging more. However, I am with you on the above quote. Jigs, training, complete new manufacturing process (without revealing their own know-how) takes an enormous amount of money.

Can anyone list the advantage Rafale (other than availability now) has over the 2 engine MCA version of HAL.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

bala, for 114 aircraft they will. But for 57 they will not. For the sake of a financially viable order, the OEM will agree. There has to be profit in it for them. When the OEM says no to 57, what will the IAF do then? All the OEMs in the contest have said that they need a minimum 100 aircraft order to transfer a line.

HAL can afford to do a paltry order of 40 Tejas Mk1, because it is a PSU. None of the OEMs are PSUs. Therein lies the difference.

There is no two engine MCA version, so discussing Rafale's addvantages is a moot point.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by nachiket »

Now that the number is dropped by half this multi-vendor MRFA makes even less sense. Just drop the pretense and do a G2G deal with Dassault for 3 more Rafale squadrons. There won't be a single officer in the IAF who would recommend procuring an entirely new type for just 3 squadrons when we already just did that with the Rafale. We made a huge mistake back in the day when the IAF was refused a 126 aircraft deal for the M2k and a multi-vendor boondoggle was forced on them. I hope for heaven's sake we stop this nonsense at least now.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by konaseema »

If I were to place a bet, I will place it for a G2G off the shelf 57 Rafale + Infra at Gwalior or a 3rd base + 57 HAL Tejas Mk1A split !!!
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ks_sachin »

konaseema wrote:If I were to place a bet, I will place it for a G2G off the shelf 57 Rafale + Infra at Gwalior or a 3rd base + 57 HAL Tejas Mk1A split !!!
Mr Konaseema ghee and shakkar comes to mind.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Prem Kumar »

konaseema wrote:If I were to place a bet, I will place it for a G2G off the shelf 57 Rafale + Infra at Gwalior or a 3rd base + 57 HAL Tejas Mk1A split !!!
Hope what you say comes to pass, but the IAF is likely to demand a 1:1 replacement of a similar type of aircraft. That would be the Tejas-Mk2
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

nachiket wrote:Now that the number is dropped by half this multi-vendor MRFA makes even less sense. Just drop the pretense and do a G2G deal with Dassault for 3 more Rafale squadrons. There won't be a single officer in the IAF who would recommend procuring an entirely new type for just 3 squadrons when we already just did that with the Rafale. We made a huge mistake back in the day when the IAF was refused a 126 aircraft deal for the M2k and a multi-vendor boondoggle was forced on them. I hope for heaven's sake we stop this nonsense at least now.
The new tender for 57 aircraft is due to come out by the end of the year.

The IN's decision - between F-18SH and Rafale M - is also due by the end of the year.

So the wait will continue. The new MRFA tender is likely just to keep the other OEMs in the game. The end goal is to not have a single vendor situation. Then everything will have to be rebooted. You surely know Saar, how our MoD works :)

By the end of the year, depending on how the naval contest pans out, it should be a G2G deal for three more Rafale squadrons (54 aircraft) for the IAF. If the navy chooses Rafale M, then it gives the GOI a little bit leverage to squeeze some other goodies in the deal. Otherwise the IAF will go at it alone with additional Rafale C/Bs and the Navy with the F-18SH Block III.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Ganesh_S »

Am i the only one here who thinks missing out on 126 m2k was a blessing in disguise... considering the exorbitant cost of upgrades? also perhaps at the cost of few su30 squadrons. Also why do we need more mki's when we haven't even laid out concrete plans for upgrading existing ones?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Ganesh_S »

126 m2k's then would have scuttled mk2's now. These airframes would have lasted till 2050 perhaps.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Ganesh_S wrote:Am i the only one here who thinks missing out on 126 m2k was a blessing in disguise... considering the exorbitant cost of upgrades? also perhaps at the cost of few su30 squadrons. Also why do we need more mki's when we haven't even laid out concrete plans for upgrading existing ones?
Calculate the cost of assembling 126 Mirage 2000s (Dash 5+ upgrade) from the 2001 proposal or from the 80s-era proposal of 150 Mirage 2000Hs. Both would have been cheaper than 36 (+ possibly 57 more) Rafales. More airframes and cost would be cheaper. Also factor in present inflation. The best part - no need for 36 Rafales, 126 MMRCAs or 114 MRFAs. Even with the exorbitant upgrade cost, it would have been cheaper than inducting a brand new type in 2020 - Rafale F3R(I).

The 36 Rafale deal cost close to US $9 billion. An additional 57 Rafales will be around the same, because there is no ISE upgrades or base infrastructure (simulators, tools, etc) to factor in. But that will be close to $20 billion for 93 birds. Thus the 1980s proposal or the 2001 proposal would have been cheaper for the country. That was the logical thing to do, but we don't like to do logical things.

Around ten (50 in service now + 126 or 150) Mirage 2000 units would have allowed the developers in the Tejas program to further refine the aircraft, to the IAF's exacting operational requirements. None of this tamasha of We-Have-Accepted-Tejas-With-X-Number-Of-Concessions. There would have been no dramatic squadron shortage that we have now either. The number of Su-30MKI units would also be well under 10. The firepower capability of the IAF would have been dramatically better. The list goes on...

But there is a human cost here, that we are overlooking. Had either the 1980s or the 2001 proposal gone through, a number of the pilots who died in various MiG-21, MiG-23 and quite possibly even MiG-27 crashes - over the past 3+ decades - would likely all be alive today. Many pilots lives are lost because they refuse to eject out of the plane, over a populated area. By the time they get to a safe area, it is too late to eject. We lost three experienced Bison pilots just last year alone. Easily avoidable. One of those three pilots was CO of TACDE.

These pilots have wives, children and parents who will never see them (on this earth) ever again. If I went to these families and told them that the cancellation of 126 or 150 Mirage 2000s was a blessing in disguise, I will get slapped across my face and told to get out of their home. Heads in multiple Govts, in the bureaucracy and in the IAF need to roll for this malaise. But the sad reality is not a single one will. These families will bear this loss forever and alone. The void that is caused by their loss is heart breaking. The self reliance slogan is nice to say when it is not your father, brother, uncle or husband in that cockpit. We ignore the human element at our own peril.

We still have not learned our lesson. Additional Mk1s can be ordered, but every excuse is given in the book i.e. Mk1A order is there, HAL assembly lines are full with 83 Mk1A order, 114 (now 57) MRFA needs to be fulfilled, etc. An additional Tejas assembly line will cost around $250 - $300 million. The cost of 57 MRFA will be around $10 billion. Just saying....
Ganesh_S wrote:126 m2k's then would have scuttled mk2's now. These airframes would have lasted till 2050 perhaps.
The math of 126 Mirage 2000s (7 units) would not be enough to reach 42 squadrons. The Tejas Mk2 would still be very necessary and that too in large numbers.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Adrija »

I am not sure if it would politically feasible for even this Govt to order additional 36 Rafales- the political storm would be quite severe, not to mention the backlog in delivery from France's end. So most likely the government will sit it out and wait for the IAF top brass to finally come to their senses and double down on Tejas (in all its variants)

One can only hope
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Pratyush »

Every now and then, I try to visualise the operations scenario for the IAF. To see if what they are looking for actually makes sense.

Time and time again I reach a conclusion that the IAF needs to grow to at least 120 combat squadrons by 2045 -50 time frame.

But Indian strategic community can't seem to visualise the IAF going beyond 42 squadrons by that time.

The PRC by then with large sized airforce with relatively large number of 5 &5+ generation combat aircraft coupled with nearly 1000 late 4gen aircraft. Coupled with force multipliers and 6 to 8 aircraft carriers and supporting battle groups will be able to militarily achieve any goals set by the political leadership.

It seems that we are destined to be chasing after multiple foreign types perpetually. While not being able to make up our minds about what the future is going to be.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:
Time and time again I reach a conclusion that the IAF needs to grow to at least 120 combat squadrons by 2045 -50 time frame.

B
On what is this conclusion based Pratyush if I may ask.

Also does this take into account the overall defence budget and the needs to the other arms?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Pratyush »

1) the absolute strength of the PRC armed forces.

2) the increase in budgetary allocations on account of increasing GDP.

3) the seperate services have to be upgraded seperately. The army has to be maintained in size but the technological upgrades have to be done. As does the navy. If the navy doesn't become a 4 to 6 full size aircraft carriers force. Then the airforce will have to become a 150 + squadrons force.

The rational for this is as follows.

The PRC will by that time would have a fighter force of over 2500+ aircraft. With approximately 300 tankers and 30+ AEW platforms. This is a force that can slice through anything accept a force that is at its own level.

If someone is going to tell you that an IADS with be able to handle the PRC. The IADS gets taken apart every time by any reasonably competent adversary.

The PRC navy will have anywhere between 6 to 8 carriers. Along with 50 to 60 attack submarines. Both nuke and diesel electric.
Along with 150 frigates and destroyers.

The Indian navy has to grow seperately from the IAF.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ks_sachin »

We don’t have that drive so there…
The forces know this…
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:bala, for 114 aircraft they will. But for 57 they will not. .
There is the possiblity that the Navy and iaf numbers will be combined into a total of 80 birds... Might make it easier for tot?

However I do feel that the Navy order will go to the Boeing chaps.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote:There is the possiblity that the Navy and iaf numbers will be combined into a total of 80 birds... Might make it easier for tot?

However I do feel that the Navy order will go to the Boeing chaps.
There will be no TOT and there will be no financially feasible line for 57 or even 80 birds.

All the OEMs have made it amply clear that they require a minimum 100 aircraft order to transfer a line.

Perhaps the new tender will state, instead of a line, send the aircraft in as SKD or CKD kits. Then just assemble the pieces together at the base. Just like they did with the MiG-29s in the 80s and the first batch of Su-30s in the 1990s. That will be called TOT & manufacture in India and no one will be the wiser. So problem solved :)
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cybaru »

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:bala, for 114 aircraft they will. But for 57 they will not. .
There is the possiblity that the Navy and iaf numbers will be combined into a total of 80 birds... Might make it easier for tot?

However I do feel that the Navy order will go to the Boeing chaps.
What value does ToT add man? Nothing new.. Own parts / components for the line.. that is more valuable than anything else.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Cybaru wrote:What value does ToT add man? Nothing new.. Own parts / components for the line.. that is more valuable than anything else.
Deep ToT Sirjee. Deep!

A misunderstood term that has hoodwinked over a billion people in India.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:
Cybaru wrote:What value does ToT add man? Nothing new.. Own parts / components for the line.. that is more valuable than anything else.
Deep ToT Sirjee. Deep!
A misunderstood term that has hoodwinked over a billion people in India.
:rotfl: So long as it is deep. laang screwdriver always better than short one because it can do deep work.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cain Marko »

Cybaru wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:
There is the possiblity that the Navy and iaf numbers will be combined into a total of 80 birds... Might make it easier for tot?

However I do feel that the Navy order will go to the Boeing chaps.
What value does ToT add man? Nothing new.. Own parts / components for the line.. that is more valuable than anything else.
Cyji, not at all supporting such ToT based boondoggles - just thinking out loud about the possible order numbers where OEM might actually agree to set up lines. IMVHO - off the shelf purchases would save desh huge amounts of time and money. But gobermand is always thinking of tot and Make in India (or should it be Screw in India?)
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by kit »

Pratyush wrote:1) the absolute strength of the PRC armed forces.

The PRC navy will have anywhere between 6 to 8 carriers. Along with 50 to 60 attack submarines. Both nuke and diesel electric.
Along with 150 frigates and destroyers.

The Indian navy has to grow seperately from the IAF.
OT but BRF should keenly watch a remilitarising Japan that has shed its pacifist posture

China will need to commit forces SE Asia and Pacific
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ldev »

FWIW, today's Financial Express

IAF to vault Multi Role Fighter Aircraft Program under Buy Global, Make India; 114 Aircraft in the pipeline intact
IAF’s mega $20 billion Multi Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) project is under the debate again. On the criticality of depleting number of squadrons and against the lurking threats from the Northern and Western adversaries, the MRFA is under consideration to be placed on fast track under the ‘Buy Global, Make in India’, proposing a shift from strategic partnership model. While as a matter of fact, the number of combat aircraft which is originally marked for the acquisition remains—114. As assessed, there is no plan to reduce the number of aircraft under MRFA.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cyrano »

Article in French press. Please use your browser translate:
http://www.opex360.com/2022/06/03/linde ... hnologies/
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by NRao »

Cyrano wrote:Article in French press. Please use your browser translate:
http://www.opex360.com/2022/06/03/linde ... hnologies/
Ha.
India ties carrier-based fighter purchase to deal on major tech transfers
Says the title.

Boy, I can see parts of the US Congress do a repeat of Jan 6. They coined "Semitic", "Pagan", "Kufir", and most recently "Hindutva" to manage peoples. Now I bet they will use "Atmanirbhar" in a similar fashion - to manage Indian armed forces. : )
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by basant »

French Dassault vs US Boeing — Mega fighter deal for IAF & Indian Navy could be split
Sources in the Indian defence and security establishment said that instead of acquiring 114 fighters in one go, as was planned earlier, the government is looking at going in for an initial order of 54 aircraft for the IAF.

This would involve 18 fighters being bought off-the-shelf from the foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) and 36 being built in India through a joint venture under Make In India.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by nash »

Late CDS Rawat suggested the Staggered approach in case of MRFA which is in sync with the article by Snehesh Alex Philip.
Most likely a G2G deal for both MRFA and MRCBF.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

This is the story with Scorpenes and will be the same for ALL high end imports ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6905&start=1520#p2552266

ANY official of the GoI advocating that these horrifically expensive import projects with license assembly will actually transfer tech to India or help with domestic projects should immediately be stripped of their credentials and cast out

And this is just what the French do, the US is even more intrusive and tech is even less transferable and yet some are clamoring for F-18/21/15?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by NRao »

< Post Edited >

Mod Note: Please stick to topic thread.
Last edited by Rakesh on 06 Jun 2022 19:06, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: < Post Edited >
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:This is the story with Scorpenes ...
KSingh, good points.

Just a humble request to kindly stick to topic thread. It creates a cascading effect with other posters (I had to edit the post above this one) who then reply to that post. This same link and article has been posted in the Project 75I thread by another poster ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6905&start=1520#p2552266

I have edited your post with the link. Please check.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:
KSingh wrote:This is the story with Scorpenes ...
KSingh, good points.

Just a humble request to kindly stick to topic thread. It creates a cascading effect with other posters (I had to edit the post above this one) who then reply to that post. This same link and article has been posted in the Project 75I thread by another poster ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6905&start=1520#p2552266

I have edited your post with the link. Please check.
Thanks for your work.

But IMHO my original post wasn’t off topic and has a direct link to the MRFA/MMRCA saga given the procurement mechanism (buy and make global) and arguments for (to facilitate ToT and build up Indian industry ) are almost identical between P75 and MMRCA/MRFA.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:Thanks for your work.

But IMHO my original post wasn’t off topic and has a direct link to the MRFA/MMRCA saga given the procurement mechanism (buy and make global) and arguments for (to facilitate ToT and build up Indian industry ) are almost identical between P75 and MMRCA/MRFA.
I did see that links and the points you raised. I am in full agreement with you.

The issue lies with posters seeing your post on the P-75I in the MRCA thread and then posting news articles related to that, which is what happened. From there, other posters will latch on to that article and then the thread gets derailed. So it is best to just post the link of the news article or tweet from that particular thread. If no one has posted that tweet or news item, then feel free to post that in that relevant thread.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by asbchakri »

https://theprint.in/defence/french-dass ... plit/98262

New Delhi: The Narendra Modi government is looking at splitting the mega deal for 114 Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) into two separate orders, even as the Navy pursues its own fighter aircraft acquisition programme, ThePrint has learnt.

Sources in the Indian defence and security establishment said that instead of acquiring 114 fighters in one go, as was planned earlier, the government is looking at going in for an initial order of 54 aircraft for the IAF.

This would involve 18 fighters being bought off-the-shelf from the foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) and 36 being built in India through a joint venture under Make In India.

This would be an order that will be placed with the foreign OEM directly.

Asked what happens to the subsequent need for the IAF, the sources said that a follow-on order will be placed to the joint venture and this deal would be in Indian currency.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

asbchakri wrote:https://theprint.in/defence/french-dass ... plit/98262

New Delhi: The Narendra Modi government is looking at splitting the mega deal for 114 Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) into two separate orders, even as the Navy pursues its own fighter aircraft acquisition programme, ThePrint has learnt.

Sources in the Indian defence and security establishment said that instead of acquiring 114 fighters in one go, as was planned earlier, the government is looking at going in for an initial order of 54 aircraft for the IAF.

This would involve 18 fighters being bought off-the-shelf from the foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) and 36 being built in India through a joint venture under Make In India.

This would be an order that will be placed with the foreign OEM directly.

Asked what happens to the subsequent need for the IAF, the sources said that a follow-on order will be placed to the joint venture and this deal would be in Indian currency.
Around and around the circus goes

20 years ago- MMRCA 126= 18 off the shelf and 108 made in india (majority of work share done by HAL)

2015-2022 ‘MRFA’=18 off the shelf and 96 made via SPM in india with a partner of OEM’s choice

2022- MRFA 2.0= 18 off the shelf and 36 made via buy (global), make in India route

Forgetting that it’s almost inconceivable that any foreign OEM would want to go to the cost of creating such expensive production infrastructure in india for so few units one has to wonder what the actual goal is here. Getting fighter jets doesn’t seem to be- they’ve had 20+ years to get just ~100 fighters and have not made any progress whatsoever. This is beyond lunacy
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