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MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 17 Mar 2018 18:09

X-Post from the Rafale thread...

For folks who believe the F-18 will turn out to be a cheaper, make-do choice. At this stage, ordering any other fighter - other than the Rafale - would be the *REAL & ONLY* scam in the Rafale deal.

Pouring a bucket of ice cold water over the whole ‘Rafale scam exposed’ fiasco
http://www.opindia.com/2018/03/dassault ... es-expose/

With the significant investments made by the IAF for their Rafales, it would be truly unthinkable that the number would be capped at 36 or even 72 units. For the enormous customisation and basing costs to be justified significant follow-on orders need to be placed but there is no doubt that such orders would benefit immensely from these new conditions. The Indian Navy, in particular, is now in a strong position to take advantage of the investments made by the IAF as they could pool training costs, spares management and operational procedure. To fail to take advantage of such investments by selecting another foreign fighter for the navy or perhaps an even more unjustifiable purchase such as a foreign single-engine jet fighter would be unpalatable and a true insult to the Indian taxpayer.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 21 Mar 2018 00:29

Agree Admiral. But who will sort out Pappu and Soniaji.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 21 Mar 2018 03:32

ANALYSIS: Saab continues refining Gripen Maritime
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... me-446635/

Paper Gripen Maritime navy fighter plane is being refined further. Will benefit from the Gripen E experience, although a LOT of naval technologies need to be demonstrated and that takes effort, money and a customer.

Gripen M empty weight is (on paper) 8500 kgs and the target empty weight is 8300 kgs. Please keep these figures in mind for future debates comparing LCA Navy Mk2 with Gripen M.

Size being touted as a plus, which of course the IN won't buy since it believes that even the LCA Navy Mk2's range, payload, number of engines and size are drawbacks.

In addition to locking down a launch customer, one challenge is weight. The present Gripen M design is 500kg (1,100lb) heavier than a baseline Gripen E, which Saab documents show as having a basic mass empty weight of 8t.

"We're looking at ways of reducing that weight," says Ogilvy. "We hope to get down to no more than 300kg extra."

The extra weight stems from strengthening around the fighter's centre of gravity, where the airframe would be subjected to high levels of energy during catapult launches and arrested landings. The jet's nose-gear oleo strut has also been strengthened, with steel replacing alloy.

"The undercarriage [of Gripen M] is slightly longer and slightly bigger," he says. "Apart from that and a shrouded hook for arrest and recovery, it is exactly the same aircraft. It will do exactly the same job [as the Gripen E] in every role. When the aircraft is not on the carrier, it is part of the Gripen fleet ashore."
Last edited by Rakesh on 21 Mar 2018 05:00, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please post title and link of article when posting

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 21 Mar 2018 04:53

In addition to locking down a launch customer, one challenge is weight.


Having next to nothing in terms of the relevant experience of developing a naval fighter, or having an experienced naval operator (like a carrier possessing Navy customer) lead the program from the customer side is no small or irrelevant challenge..perhaps as big as any of the other two.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2018 06:17

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Agree Admiral. But who will sort out Pappu and Soniaji.

Saar, not to worry. Pappu has derailed the Rafale deal enough to not have the GOI order a second tranche prior to the May 2019 elections. When the elections are over - and regardless of which ever party wins - more Rafale fighters will come.

If it is the BJP that wins, it will give the Prime Minister enough political capital to go ahead with a follow on order.

If it is the Congress that wins, Pappu will open the Rafale file, find nothing and quietly close the file.

But the greatest push for a follow on Rafale deal, will come from the IAF itself and that will be hard pressed for either political party to ignore. It is one thing to evaluate an aircraft during a competition or go for a ride in France or read a glossy brochure. It is however a whole other ballgame, when you operate that platform day in and day out. The realization of the capability that the Rafale offers has cemented in with IAF planners, however the true realization will come only when the Rafale joins an active squadron.

I am posting a a breakdown of the deal below. Any logical person - unless they are biased and motivated towards another platform - will tell you there is no scam. But the Congress keeps bringing up nonsensical claims like they negotiated a cheaper deal (there was no deal in the first place, with AK Antony leaving the decision to the next govt); that Egypt and Qatar paid less for their Rafales than India (despite the fact the deal with both the other countries are night and day, compared to the Indian deal).

As per wiki chacha...

*EACH* Meteor costs £2 Million (or $2.8 million in 2018 dollars).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_(missile)

*EACH* SCALP cruise missile costs £790,000 (or $1.1 million in 2018 dollars).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_Shadow

For the Mica missile, one can refer to a price paid by India for the Mirage 2000 upgrade...

India approves Mica missile buy, but slips fighter decision
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-366605/

The reports suggested the deal values at about $1.2 billion for 450 to 500 missiles, although MBDA declined to comment on either figure. However, if accurate the buy would work out at a cost of approximately $2.7 million per round.


Image

And this is the unit price that India paid for the Rafale, compared to Egypt and Qatar. Where is the scam?

Image

To bring up depriving-HAL-of-jobs is laughable. Perhaps the Congress party got a bout of amnesia, because Dassault advised that they cannot guarantee a HAL-built Rafale and that too *ONLY* for screwdrivergiri. Also to state that DRAL (Dassault Reliance Aviation Ltd) will be building the Rafale, instead of HAL is equally laughable because all 36 Rafales are being delivered in a fly-away condition from Merignac, France.

I ask again, where is the SCAM?

Akshay-ji, none of the below is directed at you.

To BRF's import lobby - here is something to think about;

1) If Dassault has stated that they cannot guarantee a HAL-built Rafale, what do you think Boeing will do? Who is going to build the "make-do" F-18 for the IAF? If it is not HAL, will it be Tata? Will that not deprive HAL of jobs? Why is RaGA eerily silent about Tata's AH-64 Apache facility?

2) If the MoD could not afford 126 Rafales, how do you think they will afford a minimum of 100 "make-do" F-18s? The *STARTING* price of the F-18 deal is rumoured to be around $15 - $16 billion for a minimum of 100 birds. From where is the GOI expected to get $15 - $16 billion for "make-do" F-18s?

3) Apart from a follow-on Rafale deal (of two more squadrons), any other deal will only delay the re-equipping of IAF squadrons. A follow-on Rafale deal is the only solution and large scale manufacturing of the Tejas in different avatars. That is the only path forward.

Please come down to earth and realize the fallacy of your argument. For all the hype of the Indo-American strategic partnership, it is France that ultimately stole the show. That is proving a bitter pill for you to swallow and thus you folks jump at every opportunity to peddle an American bird.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 21 Mar 2018 15:03

How long must IAF wait for its new fighter?
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/opinion ... ghter.html

By General Shankar Roychowdhury (Retd) - a former Chief of Army Staff and a former member of Parliament.

Defence has never been a particularly important focus of successive governments in India, and defence procurement, no matter how urgent, has always been regarded as fodder for cynical political bargaining. Politicians of all parties have never hesitated to shoot off their mouths on military issues, which neither they nor their pretentiously-designated “high commands” have the slightest clue about.
:rotfl:
Let there be no doubt — India continues to function in a two-and-a-half front threat situation, and there are no visible signs that the situation will wind down in the foreseeable future or that India’s involvement in its near abroad region is likely to end anytime soon.

It seems the Indian Air Force will have to wait for an extended period before succour arrives. What then is the answer? Make in India?


PS: The good general is spot on reg. the political cavalier like attitude towards defence and national security.However,it would've been even better had he elaborated on the "make in India",hinting perhaps at the LCA? Here,we are all in agreement that it is abso. essential for not just the IAF but the nation and when produced in series production in quantity,will catapult us into the league of nations able to export their own fighters. Herein lies the problem and the resurrection of the MRCA req., low prod. rate of HAL<which even if as promised will accelerate to 16/yr.,will still be unable to meet the IAF's req. for numbers and capability.In this case,the only sensible solution is to built more fighters already being made at home,which are contemporary like the MKI,far cheaper than Rafales which will be impossible to manufacture in India in any qty. without laying two arms and a leg to the French and bankrupting the entire defence budget.That is the grim reality that has hit the govt. in the solar plexus. MKIs are being made with over 70% local raw material.Even new Jaguars come in at a low cost and would be ideal to take the share of the close support/GA duties which hundreds of MIGs also performed earlier apart from their primary function as interceptors.

A simple comparison of the cost of a Rafale,MKI even to SS/BMos std.,Jaguars and LCAs (MK-1A) would give us a good picture of our options.I do not know why anyone in parliament hasn't asked the GOI for these details (general budgetary costing)so that option B,C,or even D may be considered in view of the financial crunch.

By "making in India" more numbers of the three types already being built here,the IAF's numbers and capability can be well overcome,within budget without having to recourse to yet another round of excruciating evaluation and negotiations which plagues the earlier MMRCA req.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 24 Mar 2018 20:51

Belgian F-16 Replacement Program In Turmoil
http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/belgi ... am-turmoil

How LM gets gov into scandals. Just another example.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Mar 2018 21:34

If you have access to the pay section of the site, please *ONLY* post your summary. Do not cut-and-paste.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Viv S » 24 Mar 2018 22:30

SaiK wrote:Belgian F-16 Replacement Program In Turmoil
http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/belgi ... am-turmoil

How LM gets gov into scandals. Just another example.

It’s something of a manufactured “scandal”. Doesn’t involve LM. Belgium took deliveries of the F-16 between 1979 and 1985 making its current fleet about 35 years old with replacements scheduled to commence from 2022 i.e. in another five years.

Lockheed Martin informed the BAC/MoD that the aircraft airframes could be upgraded and flogged for another 6-7 years. The BAC, presumably unenthusiastic about the prospect of eventually operating 50 year old fighter jets, filed the report away. But they didn’t present it to the defence minister (who was probably otherwise aware of the possibility of keeping the aircraft operational for a few more years). Therefore... scandal, or at least a weapon for the opposition to beat the govt over the head with.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 26 Mar 2018 06:47

Rakesh wrote:For all the *HYPE* of the Indo-American strategic partnership, it is France that ultimately stole the show.

India has chosen Rafale because it is the best
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... l-5110418/

Q. The military logistics agreement that India famously signed with the US took almost 15-16 years to come through. How did France manage to pull it off in six months? Also, were you surprised by the controversy over the Rafale deal? The government here refused to share the price details of the Rafale fighters citing a secrecy pact with France. Is that true?

A. We launched the negotiations for the logistics agreement last summer and ended it weeks before President Macron’s visit. I don’t want a comparison with other countries, but it went on quite smoothly. There was strong commitment from the Indian side and the French side. The operational need for the agreement was very important, and that might be the reason why we succeeded in negotiating it in six months.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 29 Mar 2018 23:02

X-Post from an article posted by BRF Member Vips....

HAL to get Tejas key parts from private players
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 526018.cms

IAF wants to induct 201Mark 2 Tejas jets, which will have additional capabilities such as better range than the Mark 1and 1A. “The Mark 2 will have qualities like the Gripen and Mirage fighters and will be called Medium Combat Aircraft instead of LCA,” one of the officials said. The order for Mark 2 will be placed once HAL understands what all capabilities IAF wants in the aircraft.

The MoD will drag the MRCA contest, citing this clause and that clause. No *REAL* or *SIGNIFICANT* movement will occur. They will keep dragging, until a few must-have technologies (mainly the engine) gets certified and screwdrivergiri occurs. Then, the MoD will cancel this contest as well, citing cost and time issues. At the same time, there will be pressure from the IAF to order another batch of 36 - 44 Rafales citing reasons such as already operate the type, quicker and cheaper to acquire than 100 phoren birds and optimum use of base infrastructure. That will be the end of this comedy show. The IAF gamed the system beautifully. They are smart. Good for them.

The choice is between 201 Tejas Mk2s vs 100 make-do and affordable F-18s with a *STARTING* price of $15 - $16 billion.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby JayS » 30 Mar 2018 12:37

Rakesh wrote:X-Post from an article posted by BRF Member Vips....

HAL to get Tejas key parts from private players
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 526018.cms

IAF wants to induct 201Mark 2 Tejas jets, which will have additional capabilities such as better range than the Mark 1and 1A. “The Mark 2 will have qualities like the Gripen and Mirage fighters and will be called Medium Combat Aircraft instead of LCA,” one of the officials said. The order for Mark 2 will be placed once HAL understands what all capabilities IAF wants in the aircraft.

The MoD will drag the MRCA contest, citing this clause and that clause. No *REAL* or *SIGNIFICANT* movement will occur. They will keep dragging, until a few must-have technologies (mainly the engine) gets certified and screwdrivergiri occurs. Then, the MoD will cancel this contest as well, citing cost and time issues. At the same time, there will be pressure from the IAF to order another batch of 36 - 44 Rafales citing reasons such as already operate the type, quicker and cheaper to acquire than 100 phoren birds and optimum use of base infrastructure. That will be the end of this comedy show. The IAF gamed the system beautifully. They are smart. Good for them.

The choice is between 201 Tejas Mk2s vs 100 make-do and affordable F-18s with a *STARTING* price of $15 - $16 billion.


Admiral, I know you do not mean it in any bad taste, but statements like these belie the intentions with which they are made. Had IAF really known how to game the system they would have got M2Ks in first place, long time back. The system is completely dysfunctional and no one seems to know how to tame the wild horse. Even the RMs are frustrated. Even PMO seems to be struggling to make things happen.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 30 Mar 2018 12:46

Ha!Ha! LCA becomes MCA tx to the PC Suckers in babudom.How they can spin a yarn and we, the poor IAF and taxpayers get taken for a ride.

But seriously, some time ago did I not say leverage the MK-2 with stealth and shorten the time for an "AMCA"? So by the latest nomenclature, even an "LCA-MCA" with a costing of stealth paint, etc., etc. becomes the AMCA!
Amazing what juggling a few letters can achieve.But weightwise our little Tejas must become obese no? So how best can we do that?

Big,big engine like bigger bullock to draw a bigger cart with bigger load.Some stretching exercises too.Who knows, if big,big engine not to be found, perhaps 2 small, small ones will do no?
Watch this space!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Mar 2018 20:34

^ I've always thought that a twin engined LCAmk2 would be the first step to an AMCA. keep the weight below 10 tons and use the kaveri. A truly independent solution.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby sahay » 31 Mar 2018 00:22

Cain Marko wrote:^ I've always thought that a twin engined LCAmk2 would be the first step to an AMCA. keep the weight below 10 tons and use the kaveri. A truly independent solution.

That would kill any chance of Mk 2 production. Mk1/1A production will probably end around 2025-26. Mk 2 needs to be ready by then and it will have to be produced between 2026-35 for a run of 200. If Mk 2 is not ready, IAF won't wait any more, they'll buy imported jets. If we start a new twin engine design now, there is no chance that it'll be ready by 2025. Flight testing itself will take a minimum of 7 years, which means that we should have had the prototypes ready last year. The success formula for Mk 2 is to keep the airframe changes to the minimum while increasing thrust and range.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kashi » 31 Mar 2018 06:19

sahay wrote: If Mk 2 is not ready, IAF won't wait any more, they'll buy imported jets.


IAF cannot buy jets on their own. If MoD stands firm that it will be MK2 and nothing else, IAF will comply. Raksha Mantri needs to waive the danda.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 31 Mar 2018 08:56

The IAF have just 2 choices. To make up numbers they can- as many air forces around the world do who operate just a few types, buy more of the same in service, with incremental improvements.F-16 and F-18 aircraft perhaps the best examples.For the IAF this means more MKIs, to what is now being referred to as SS std., more MIG-29UG std. or the MIG-35 , in reality a MIG-29 variant.Or more Jaguars as well as upgrades for all exg. fighters.A combined total of 8-10
sqds. of these types will amount to 200 aircraft.200- 300 LCAs of various avatars will thus number 500.With the exg. 300 MKIs, 60 MIG-29UGs, 40+ upgraded M2Ks and approx. 40 Rafales, we will get a grand total of approx 950! That's leaving out all 120 MIG- 21 Bisons too.Add 2 sqds of FGFAs and you get 1000 aircraft.If LCA prod. fires well we could attain a grand total of 1200 aircraft, the 60+ sqd. req. to fight the two front war.

As all these aircraft are now being "made in India", or in the case of both MIG-29s and M2Ks, all upgrades done at home, with a high % of indigenous raw material and desi weaponry for them too, there will be NO need for purchase of any new
firang fighter other than the FGFA , which hopefully will be part of a JV.This way numbers, capability and advanced 5th- gen birds may be acquired with considerable cost savings too.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Mar 2018 13:26

sahay wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:^ I've always thought that a twin engined LCAmk2 would be the first step to an AMCA. keep the weight below 10 tons and use the kaveri. A truly independent solution.

That would kill any chance of Mk 2 production. Mk1/1A production will probably end around 2025-26. Mk 2 needs to be ready by then and it will have to be produced between 2026-35 for a run of 200. If Mk 2 is not ready, IAF won't wait any more, they'll buy imported jets. If we start a new twin engine design now, there is no chance that it'll be ready by 2025. Flight testing itself will take a minimum of 7 years, which means that we should have had the prototypes ready last year. The success formula for Mk 2 is to keep the airframe changes to the minimum while increasing thrust and range.


All good but increasing airframe size by 1.5 meter plug doesn't seem like a small change. If the Gripen NG is anything to go by even such 'minimal" changes will take a 10-12 years to productionize anyways. And then there will be a struggle to keep the weight down which will be crucial for a 10 ton engine. And then the engine will belong to a supplier they have no control over.

If the kaveri is close to the finish line even with 7.5 ton engines, it will serve for a twin engined bird the size of a Rafale.

That's why I've always felt that iaf should order more MK1 and mk1a and get the lines humming. This is the bestway to achieve your idea of minimal changes and maximum effect s via mk1a. Order 200 and move on. Should serve theintended role well enoug without complicating matters. hLet the focus move on to something bigger.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 01 Apr 2018 00:20

JayS wrote:Admiral, I know you do not mean it in any bad taste, but statements like these belie the intentions with which they are made. Had IAF really known how to game the system they would have got M2Ks in first place, long time back. The system is completely dysfunctional and no one seems to know how to tame the wild horse. Even the RMs are frustrated. Even PMO seems to be struggling to make things happen.

It is frustrating to watch the MoD hum and haw on this issue. 17+ years to induct a fighter to replace the aging MiG-21s. 17+ years where the MoD played one delay tactic after another and continue to do so. The system isn't dysfunctional, it is rotten to its inner core and the MoD is to blame for that. But it is the services that suffer as a result and in this case, the Indian Air Force. The service has an acute pilot shortage, but they will continue to operate a bird that is past her prime and put the one resource that is *SCARCE* at great risk. An air force operates what the nation can afford to give them. But in our case, we can afford a better platform...but the Babu will delay it. What does he care? He gets guaranteed pension and lifelong job security, as long as he follows the rules of babudom. There is an absolute disdain for the services in the eyes of the Babu. The Babu views armed forces personnel as beneath them. As the saying goes, The Devil does not cast out the Devil. Why would the Babu reform anything that is detrimental in diminishing his status?

Our politicians are no better either. To quote Air Marshal P K Barbora (retd) - I believe he retired as Vice Chief - When in opposition they will argue against the govt's position. When in power, they will do the exact opposite. May be the Congress party got amnesia, because they were the ones in power on 27 April 2011 (technical downselect) and 30 January 2012 (L1 downselect). Now RaGa is questioning the Rafale purchase and has the gall to state that the Congress party negotiated a cheaper deal? They had no confirmed deal in the first place, with AK Antony clearly stating that the decision will be left to the next government. If RaGa wins 2019 elections, he will find nothing wrong in the Rafale deal and then not talk about it ever again. But who suffers? The Indian Air Force.

After 70+ years of this nonsense, I am sure the services now realize there is a way to play the system. So let them play it. Why should they suffer? Where is the logic in spending $15 - $16 billion (starting price) on another fighter, when you just spent $2+ billion on Rafale base infrastructure? But MoD will do global competition and waste another decade. But when the 36 Rafales come and the IAF makes the business case (cheaper acquisition) for a follow on batch of 36 - 44 Rafales, that will be hard pressed to argue against.

From a twitter feed (from the Kaveri thread, posted by chetak)....

Bureaucrats are making a mess of everything and anything they have control over, yet they remain on commanding height. This is the tragedy of this country since the British created this relic in the nineteenth century to further their colonial interests.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Neshant » 01 Apr 2018 06:00

Put in a larger order of 250 MK1A and 250 MK2.

A really small price to pay for safeguarding the nation's airspace in the years ahead cucial for India's economic emergence.

I am willing to bet this plane will have far higher up-time than a foreign aircraft. A force of 500 planes would feel like 1500 as planes would not be sitting in hangars undergoing endless failure analysis and repairs.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Austin » 01 Apr 2018 08:31

Neshant wrote:Put in a larger order of 250 MK1A and 250 MK2.

A really small price to pay for safeguarding the nation's airspace in the years ahead cucial for India's economic emergence.

I am willing to bet this plane will have far higher up-time than a foreign aircraft. A force of 500 planes would feel like 1500 as planes would not be sitting in hangars undergoing endless failure analysis and repairs.


Can’t agree with you more , need to fix production bottle beck today

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby sahay » 01 Apr 2018 09:22

Cain Marko wrote:All good but increasing airframe size by 1.5 meter plug doesn't seem like a small change. If the Gripen NG is anything to go by even such 'minimal" changes will take a 10-12 years to productionize anyways.

It may not be a small change, but the airframe changes in Mk 2 are going to be less than Gripen E. Gripen has an extended wing span with extra hardpoints which probably required a full flight test plan. ADA can probably work out a shorter test plan with CEMILAC for Mk 2 since the plug is the only major airframe change planned.

Cain Marko wrote:That's why I've always felt that iaf should order more MK1 and mk1a and get the lines humming. This is the bestway to achieve your idea of minimal changes and maximum effect s via mk1a. Order 200 and move on.

The problem is that IAF thinks that Tejas in its current shape is not capable enough for a 300 jet order. According to Nitin Gokhale, IAF has set Mirage 2000 as the benchmark for Mk 2. ADA's current plan for Mk 2 shows a MTOW of 16.5 tons, which is quite comparable to Mirage 2000's 17 tons. As long as there are no other airframe changes requested like extra hardpoints, it should be smooth sailing compared to a twin-engine derivative.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 01 Apr 2018 09:40

There is little point in my opinion to try and stretch Tejas ,meant always as a light fighter MIG- 21 replacement in large number into becoming a medium-size capable aircraft.Its like trying to shove a size 9 foot into a size 7 shoe! If the IAF want better capability then let them choose another more capable and cost- effective platform, either med. sized or MKI/SS.

With 300- 400 MIG-21s and MIG-27s being retired, a one-for-one replacement, even a MK-1A with some incremental improvements as prod. goes along would suffice as it is a btter bet than its predecessor.Since prod. is poor, open another line asap.Even if prod. hits say 30+ a yr.In a decade's time we wops even some more for export.

Our whole approach to ghe IAF's inventory, size, type of aircraft needed is effed up in style.It is the most chaotic of the three services .The goalposts keep shifting with every season and the MOD is clueless as to how to stop it and take swift decisive dfcisions because it is militarily slightly better than an illerate.The Chins and Pakis must rolling with laughter at our own " home goal"!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Neshant » 02 Apr 2018 03:05

Austin wrote:
Neshant wrote:Put in a larger order of 250 MK1A and 250 MK2.

A really small price to pay for safeguarding the nation's airspace in the years ahead cucial for India's economic emergence.

I am willing to bet this plane will have far higher up-time than a foreign aircraft. A force of 500 planes would feel like 1500 as planes would not be sitting in hangars undergoing endless failure analysis and repairs.


Can’t agree with you more , need to fix production bottle beck today


Unfortunately by the time this is realised, years would have gone by.

Then will come the cry for a quick import of foreign planes because of critically low force levels.
2nd hand junk like the Jaguars and hangar queens like the Mig-29 will be hurriedly imported at huge costs.

This is how the aerospace industry in India has been systematically destroyed by bad decision making.

Put in the 500 plane Tejas order NOW so HAL can start scaling up right away.
Now is the time to plan the production expansion and it cannot happen without order commitments.
Every month wasted is a nail in the coffin.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 02 Apr 2018 06:16

There was a report reg. NS's forthcoming visit to Ru.They have made an offer of a sqd. Of one sqd. of MIG-29s plus extras , to meet our immediate shortage.A sensible way to go acquiring at least one more sdq. to our 67 from the OEM.Not long ago it was reported that werd were scrounging for old MIG-29s in Malaysian garbage bins!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby JayS » 02 Apr 2018 10:32

Rakesh wrote:
JayS wrote:Admiral, I know you do not mean it in any bad taste, but statements like these belie the intentions with which they are made. Had IAF really known how to game the system they would have got M2Ks in first place, long time back. The system is completely dysfunctional and no one seems to know how to tame the wild horse. Even the RMs are frustrated. Even PMO seems to be struggling to make things happen.

It is frustrating to watch the MoD hum and haw on this issue. 17+ years to induct a fighter to replace the aging MiG-21s. 17+ years where the MoD played one delay tactic after another and continue to do so. The system isn't dysfunctional, it is rotten to its inner core and the MoD is to blame for that. But it is the services that suffer as a result


The anguish is there is everyone's mind and its not only the services but entire Nation suffers in every damn field. Consider this - a proposal to start rolling over of defense budget was put forth in 2003-04 during NDA 1. Even today its not implemented. For so many years Parliamentary committee is only discussing this thing. I mean what is there to even discuss..? Its a no brainer. Some other ministries have rolling over provisions. Why can't PM take decision on this once and for all..?

I believe current Govt missed a golden opportunity to shift the paradigm in 2014. They instead chose to tinker with it to make it work somehow. I know many would say this was not possible, too much opposition would have been there, too much upheaval. But I believe Indian people would have stood behind any politician who would have shown grit to dismantle the dysfunctional system and start a new one which would be free from colonial hangover. People wanted change, people expected change. Anyway this is political issue, but in limited context to Defense, I would have loved to see a paradigm shift in the system which never came. There is sheer lack of imagination and will power to invest into self and develop indigenous capabilities.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 02 Apr 2018 12:10

I believe current Govt missed a golden opportunity to shift the paradigm in 2014. They instead chose to tinker with it to make it work somehow. I know many would say this was not possible, too much opposition would have been there, too much upheaval. But I believe Indian people would have stood behind any politician who would have shown grit to dismantle the dysfunctional system and start a new one which would be free from colonial hangover.


i totally agree.As you said,it's a "no-brainer".One of the biggst grouses I have is that even in the last lap of this govt.,the bureaucracy has not been reformed let alone tamed.Most of the delays are due to babu delays,as one report said,ill-informed MOD babus taking months over files.Terrorists in J&K fight with superior weaponry than our brave jawans. The George Fernandes medicine when he supposedly sent intransigent babus to Siachen must be meted out again.From basic infantry eqpt. to fighters,the services wait and wait and wait. The Army chief expressed his angst about the budget saying that there was nothing left after pensions,salaries.etc. for critically reqd. eqpt.We can fight only for 10 days! What chance do we have then if the Chinese launch a sustained campaign against us in the Himalayas with Pak meddling continuously in J&K?

We're losing around 5 soldiers/paras every week.That's 250-300 a yr. that's a huge amount of valuable lives.Even in the last encounter 3 jawans were martyred. Drastic times calls for drastic measures. The entire nation is behind the GOI when it comes to national security.sadly security appears to be taking a back seat to politics.There are excellent plans,but they exist mostly on paper.Let's see what NS's visit to Moscow brings with it.There are several deals with Russia decided upon a few years ago which have still not been sealed.Even picking up a sqd. of MIG-29s on the cheap from exg. Ru stock will alleviate the shortage a bit.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 04 Apr 2018 22:52

Beating the hell outta LCA delays again...the main reason:
https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-04-04

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 04 Apr 2018 23:25

Nothing new in the above. Regurgitating old news to make up a reporter's monthly quota of articles, so that he/she can get paid.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cybaru » 06 Apr 2018 01:44

The only two aircraft that fit our budget and still help us meet numbers are LCA and MKI. MKI will go through the super 30 upgrade and be as good as anything else.

1. Pick up 1 mig29 and M2k sqauadron (Like the news says)
2. order extra 60 MKI and call it a day, preferably directly the Super-30 upgrade model and capably of carrying Brahmos-Air
3. Order 54 Raffies in fly away condition to bring them to 90 and please focus on other things.

Work on making the AL-31F more reliant or work with RR (erj200) and work on a replacement for the whole fleet.

IAF has a long way to go in many many other important requirements.


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 06 Apr 2018 20:29

What about the chai biskut expenses incurred by the Babus in persuing the earlier program? CAG will i am sure mention at least some crores. :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 06 Apr 2018 20:35

We should be careful in this make in india and catch up for the past mistakes game especially when our maturity is spiking up in concurrent engineering PLM cycle. Thanks to the present gov for their streamlined thoughts but they lack deep technical and engineering mindsets to think thru the real asks.

For example Astra is done deal with IAF. Those 50 plus the next advanced version matching Fr Meteor BVR lomger range should further reduce weapons import by at least $5-10b for the next decade.

It may appear stupid.. but it clearly helps to speed up home grown initiatives and if IAF bite the bullet for 5 more years.

Once the tranche mode delivery begins, all these negative dorkness can be reduced.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2018 00:49

Posted by BRF Member ArjunPandit

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on the below, it seems more and more like Rafale again.
1. Rafale and F18 are teh only ones with any meaningful maritime role and rafale outscoring on air superiority and the RCS measures.
2. We are doing the same mistake of going by specs rather than the budget itself, unless of course this exercise is to keep people busy

Vishnu Som on Twitter for the latest fighter "competition"
https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV
So this is what the Indian Air Force ideally wants in the 110 fighters that it has issued a Request for Information (RFI) for ...
1. The proposal is to procure approximately 110 fighter aircraft (about 75% single seat and rest twin seat aircraft).
2. all weather multi-role combat aircraft which can be used for the following roles:-
(a) Air Superiority
(b) Air Defence
(c) Air to Surface Operations
(d) Reconnaissance
(e) Maritime
(f) EW missions, Buddy Refuelling etc.
3. Vendors are to define aspect and relevant radar frequency bands for calculation of Radar Cross Section as follows:
(i) Clean configuration.
(ii) Air to surface strike (2 PGMs+1 Designator Pod+2 BVRs +2xA4Ms + Ext Fuel)
(iii) Air to Air configurations (4 BVRs+2 A4Ms+Ext Fuel
4. Can the aircraft fly in excess of 10 hr with Air to Air Refuelling (AAR)? How many AAR engagements would be required to accomplish this duration of flight? Specify flight conditions.
5. Are Operational Turn Round Servicing (Op TRS) timings inclusive of rearming, refueling and replenishment in cleared Air to surface strike and Air Defence role with one team, of not more than five technicians per aircraft, with any combination of weapon / reconnaissance load?
6. Does the aircraft engine/s have capability to start at an altitude of 3300m AMSL (IRA) without any modifications/adjustments or any special starting procedure?
7. Is de-fuelling the aircraft possible from a single point without the need for extra ground support equipment?
8. Is the aircraft integrated with a NATO Standard buddy refueling pod? What is the minimum refuelling rate from this pod?
9. (a) Does the aircraft have a glass cockpit concept and does it have Multi-Functional Display (MFD) or Large Area Display (LAD) concepts?
10. Is the cockpit lighting and instrumentation NVG compatible? If yes, then up to which Gen standards?
11. (a) What is the type of communication suite provided? Does this communication suite have following capability:
(i) SATCOM
(ii) V/UHF radio
(iii) Datalink
(b) Is there a provision to integrate BFE/ BNE SDR?
12. (c) Is there a provision for integrating BFE/ BNE SDR with onboard RADAR, missile uplink, mission computer and displays?
13. Is there a provision to create codes of the secure mode specific to the IAF and the ownership of these codes should lie with IAF?
(e) Specify SATCOM interoperability and customisation possibilities.

14.Does the aircraft have an Inertial Ring Laser Gyro (RLG)/ Fibre Optic Gyro with Embedded Satellite Navigation System ? Are they dual redundant?The SNS should have dual band receiver and should be capable of receiving signals from GLONSS/Galileo/IRNSS & NAVSTAR satellites
15. Is there a provision of an integral IRST on the aircraft and is it capable of carrying a laser range finder which could be used for both air-to-air and air-to-ground applications?
16. (ii) Does the HMSD have the ability to slave all aircraft sensors to pilot(s) line of sight (LOS) and cue the pilot?
(iii) Is there a provision to record HMSD view?
17. Can the aircraft MPDS (Mission Planning and Debriefing System) system be integrated with existing unified mission planning system of IAF? Specify possibility of providing ICD and requirements for integration.
18. Is it feasible to integrate
(a) Panoramic cameras, targeting pods and EO/IR sensors for Recon Pod (Recce Pod).
(b) Laser Designator Pod (LDP).
(c) ECM and ESM pods.
(d) Buddy Refuelling pod.
(e) Stand Off Jammer
(f) Specify optional equipment that can be offered
19.Is it possible for the pilot to enter the cockpit of a prepared aircraft, strap-up and complete the aircraft start and post start procedure within 180 seconds for quick reaction air defence role?
20. (b) Is it possible to commence takeoff within 60 seconds after completing the procedure mentioned in sub-para (a), from the operational readiness posts located at runway ends?
21. What kind of Transmit/Receive (T/R) modules are used in Active Electronically Scanned Array? (AESA) radar? Is Gallium Nitride (GaN) based technology used in AESA radar?
22. Does the radar have the capability to carry out simultaneous Air to Air and Air to Surface operation?
23. What is the maximum (km) range for detecting a target with an RCS of 2 m2 with a probability of detection of 0.95? What is the Azimuth and Elevation scan zone in this case?
24. Does the EW suite of the aircraft include Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS),Aircraft Self Protection Jammer (ASPJ), Counter Measure Dispensing System (CMDS) and Low Band Jammer (LBJ)?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2018 00:55

Indian decision on F-16, F-18 could lead to fifth gen fighter jets: US official
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... l-5126116/

But, the official said, the US has not made any other offers right now. “We are not in a position to make any offers right now, but given the trajectory of the relationship, we think identifying opportunities for even closer cooperation on fighters to include some of our most advanced fighters maybe even fifth generation fighters is a natural discussion to have at some point down the road,” Felter said. “Adopting the Block 70 version of the F-16 would be a very positive step down that path (towards fifth generation),” he said. :lol:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Apr 2018 01:27

^^The questions should have also be included are
1. can they deliver planes, before 3 years?
2. How soon will the 100 planes be delivered?
3. May be Vishnu doesnt have full picture, but is MII & TOT dead? No mention of it.

On second thoughts It seems very contradicting to me that it could be rafale, If we are going for 110 planes + 36 rafales, then a single rafale deal would have made more sense as we might have gotten more ToT than two staggered deals. Also, nothing much has changed in terms of India's financial condition, either GDP growth rates (except the computation methodology twice over), so what's the point.
Could it be to
1. keep people in MoD & IAF next govt busy (if there is a different one, like MMRCA kept both busy from 2007 to the time deal was signed in 2016),
2. Fish for any offer of MII/ToT (if anything like that exists)
3. Assuage Airforce for a back up option in case Mk2 program doesnt go the way we want it to

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ashish raval » 07 Apr 2018 02:06

Rakesh wrote:Indian decision on F-16, F-18 could lead to fifth gen fighter jets: US official
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... l-5126116/

But, the official said, the US has not made any other offers right now. “We are not in a position to make any offers right now, but given the trajectory of the relationship, we think identifying opportunities for even closer cooperation on fighters to include some of our most advanced fighters maybe even fifth generation fighters is a natural discussion to have at some point down the road,” Felter said. “Adopting the Block 70 version of the F-16 would be a very positive step down that path (towards fifth generation),” he said. :lol:

Good luck with your old ford. Thank you and hope you liked chai biskoot. Better luck next time. If you want to open a f16 factory to make fighters cheaply do so but excuse IAF of old crap. Dangling carrots to country may work elsewhere but it will not work with people with 1.3 billion population.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2018 02:28

ArjunPandit: Let us remove one misconception right away - Technology of Transfer. Not coming, not gonna happen.

To answer your "first" three questions....

1. No
2. The first batch of planes will arrive three years after contract signature. As per the RFI, 15% of the planes (or 16 aircraft) will arrive in fly-away condition and the remaining 85% (or 94 aircraft) are to be screwdrivergiri-ed in India. As to when all the 100 planes will be delivered - assuming a contract is signed - it will be late into the next decade (like 2029 or later). Squadron shortage will always exist for the foreseeable future.
3. Nothing is being made in India and there will be no ToT of value. Make in India for Defence is a failure. The MII policy outlined cannot gel with reality. No OEM will do, what MII wants to achieve - self reliance.

On the issue of contradiction, let me state that this deal will never reach fruition. It will fail in negotiations, mainly due to cost. We are the masters of cheap and take pride in being so. Want the world, but will pay only in pennies. I am referring to Babus. Not an iota of thought goes into national security or addressing services' concerns.

To answer your "second" three questions....

1. My gut feeling tells me that the Govt will dilly-dally on this competition, till a few achievements are met (mainly on Tejas and Kaveri). The Babus are masters in bureaucratic delay. Cancelling the contract outright now, will have negative consequences.
2. Already answered.
3. Not a viable option, because this deal will never pan out.

By the time, negotiations are done....China (and Pak, courtesy of China) will be operating 5th generation platforms and will make this contest outdated. At that point, it will be started anew and the cycle of rebirth will continue.

Optimal solution to shore up current shortage is via;

1) Acquiring "used" MiG-29s (21 on offer from Russia) and M2K-9s.
2) Improving serviceability of present aircraft (above 75% across the board).
3) Complete upgrades of present aircraft i.e. M2K upgrade and Jaguar re-engine & Darin III upgrade.
4) Improve production times in Tejas output (via Tier 1, 2 and 3 suppliers) and invest in an additional Tejas line.
5) Continue with Mk1 production, till Mk1A is ready. The Mk1 can be converted to the Mk1A and outclasses the MiG-21.
6) Follow on order of 36 - 44 Rafales (the only realistic and cost-affordable solution).

All of the above six points *COMBINED* can be had for cheaper than $20 billion (estimated cost - low end - of this MRCA contest).

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Apr 2018 04:28

^^Completely agree with you, I had similar thoughts. What surprised me to no end is why an extra line of Tejas is not put in place, it can expedite the order of 123 and will it be too difficult to modify it to Mk2? I presume that was the original plan.
The more i read about the sqdn requirements, the more I am convinced that we need ~50+ sqdns for a twin front threat and regional capability projection.
What intrigued me was the 10 hr flight capability. What mission would require 10 hr apart from traveling to US for red flag? bombing chinese east coast?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cosmo_R » 07 Apr 2018 05:48

Groundhog day :)
10 squadrons of MiGs retiring by 2022. HAL will produce 6 LCAs per year for 1 + squadron.l The GoI just don't get it. The Chinese do. There will be a frantic letter from Modi to Trump just as there was from Nehru to JFK when the PRC attacked in 1962.

Indian pols do not understand security.


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