MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Rakesh
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

sankum wrote:The advantage of US fighters is that in case of war with China and heavy attrition of IAF fighters take place then in service US fighters can be transferred to India which IAF pilots are trained to operate.
In practice we will be in US camp.
Saar, I have heard that argument before. All three US contenders in the MMRCA contest are among the top tier in the 4th+ generation fighters. Top tier being in the radar and sensors. Attrition will occur in any conflict, but to have "heavy" attrition would mean one of three things;

1) Either the pilots are not properly trained on the platform
2) The platform is not technologically superior to the Chinese counterparts.
3) Or the platform itself is faulty

None of this can occur in a conflict vis-a-viv the Chinese. Nothing presently in the PLAAF can prevail over the F-21, the F-18 Block III or the F-15EX which will cause heavy attrition of these platforms.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by brar_w »

nachiket wrote:If there was some Quid Pro Quo agreed to for BECA, I hope we get some Growlers for a dedicated EW squadron instead of wasting money on the F-15EX. The Growler offers a capability which is extremely useful in the modern aerial battlefield and is very tough to get from other sources. The F-15EX offers little that some additional Rafales and a thorough upgrade of the MKI cannot.
Looking at the nations who have bought or offered the Growler (you have Australia, which is a 5-eyes member and now a Growler program partner (its signed on to both NGJ-MB and will do the same on LB as a full program partner and not just a customer), Germany is a NATO member and close enough for you to give them your tactical nuclear weapons and Finland which is also a historic partner and operator of advanced US weaponry) and the sensitivity of the system in general, it would be rather surprising if the Pentagon and the US Navy doesn't object given the presence and continued purchase of Russian IADS systems by the MOD. I think given that dynamic, some of the higher end technology will just be not be on offer so unless there is enough of a political inertia to overrule these things then it is unlikely to materialize. Having said that, the question is moot because the IAF requirement is for an MRCA while the Growler system is primarily a SEAD/DEAD asset.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

V_Raman wrote:India will only get silver bullets for foreign fighters from now on - what is that one? We have Rafale as the spear silver buller. What is our DPSA silver bullet?
Su-30MKI armed with BrahMos or Rafale armed with SCALP for high value targets.

There is nothing else in the IAF inventory that can do what the Rambha or Katrina can do.

With the Super Sukhoi upgrade, the Rambha will become even more potent.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by V_Raman »

but the super30 upgrade seems to be a mirage - nothing seems to have moved on that front. Russian tech seems to be in stasis on what might be a decent super30 upgrade - AESA/sensors and they may not allow India/3rd parties to deep upgrade it! I fear that su-30 MKI might become a dead end.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

The upgrade plan is moving ahead. I will leave it at that.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by nachiket »

V_Raman wrote:India will only get silver bullets for foreign fighters from now on - what is that one? We have Rafale as the spear silver buller. What is our DPSA silver bullet?
The Rafale is a very capable long range strike aircraft. The best we have right now. The MKI is no slouch when it comes to strike as well, especially as more and more indigenous PGM's are integrated on it. But the fleet needs a comprehensive MLU. Unfortunately, the content of the upgrade is not finalized yet and money is tight (and that won't be helped if we spend a whole lot on yet another new foreign fighter).
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by nachiket »

brar_w wrote: Looking at the nations who have bought or offered the Growler (you have Australia, which is a 5-eyes member and now a Growler program partner (its signed on to both NGJ-MB and will do the same on LB as a full program partner and not just a customer), Germany is a NATO member and close enough for you to give them your tactical nuclear weapons and Finland which is also a historic partner and operator of advanced US weaponry) and the sensitivity of the system in general, it would be rather surprising if the Pentagon and the US Navy doesn't object given the presence and continued purchase of Russian IADS systems by the MOD. I think given that dynamic, some of the higher end technology will just be not be on offer so unless there is enough of a political inertia to overrule these things then it is unlikely to materialize. Having said that, the question is moot because the IAF requirement is for an MRCA while the Growler system is primarily a SEAD/DEAD asset.
I wasn't talking about getting Growlers for this new MRCA boondoggle. This thing needs to be scrapped altogether IMO. But if the BECA deal came with some unavoidable QPQ agreement that we will buy American jets, then we should insist on Growlers. If the US won't sell those for security reasons then no deal. They either sell the cutting edge stuff or nothing at all. There is no other US aircraft that makes any sense for the IAF to buy, except perhaps the F-35 which is even more out of the question. We really do not have money to waste on more expensive assets in tiny numbers when bread and butter acquisitions like the Tejas Mk1A are still pending along with the Su-30 upgrade.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by LakshmanPST »

If at all India has no choice but to buy some US jet or the other, I feel it is better to take 36 F/A 18s for Navy, instead of meddling with the Air Force...
If I'm not wrong, IAF has a specific plan for building squadron strength... It would be better to not force fit a new jet into their plans...
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by V_Raman »

I agree that F-18 is the best choice - engine commonality with LCA family of fighters. It can participate in any theater with advanced sensors/weaponry - added bonus. But will it work for Vik or IAC-1?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

V_Raman wrote:I agree that F-18 is the best choice - engine commonality with LCA family of fighters. It can participate in any theater with advanced sensors/weaponry - added bonus. But will it work for Vik or IAC-1?
As per Boeing, the F-18 can operate from IAC-1. No reason to doubt that.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

nachiket wrote:I wasn't talking about getting Growlers for this new MRCA boondoggle. This thing needs to be scrapped altogether IMO. But if the BECA deal came with some unavoidable QPQ agreement that we will buy American jets, then we should insist on Growlers. If the US won't sell those for security reasons then no deal. They either sell the cutting edge stuff or nothing at all. There is no other US aircraft that makes any sense for the IAF to buy, except perhaps the F-35 which is even more out of the question. We really do not have money to waste on more expensive assets in tiny numbers when bread and butter acquisitions like the Tejas Mk1A are still pending along with the Su-30 upgrade.
+108.

An MRO facility for the F404/F414 engine would also be nice.

Will go a long way for the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A and Tejas Mk2.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by sankum »

The MiG-29k 42 nos can serve up to 2032 till TEDBF takes over and the requirement is reduced to only 20 Super Hornet/Rafales to be capable of operating from IAC 1. It is required for only 3.5 years of 2022-32 time period when both carriers will be operational.

It is better to buy F varient of Super Hornet so as to be used for training role also and TEDBF requirement will reduce from 100 to 80 if 20 SuperHornet is bought.

Maybe wired for future Growler role.
Last edited by Rakesh on 30 Oct 2020 02:08, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged all three posts into one
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by V_Raman »

We really think tedbf can come in 12 years from now - 2032 - I don’t think so. We have not built mk1a yet. We have mwf to build as well. This is a twin engined fighter and a clean sheet design. I think 2035 is optimistic to before 2040 being realistic.

If the navy was serious - they would ask for mwf based carrier fighter. If LCA navy can be done - then mwf navy can be done too.

I am not advocating any foreign fighters. But 2032 is fan-boyish territory.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cain Marko »

V_Raman wrote:but the super30 upgrade seems to be a mirage - nothing seems to have moved on that front. Russian tech seems to be in stasis on what might be a decent super30 upgrade - AESA/sensors and they may not allow India/3rd parties to deep upgrade it! I fear that su-30 MKI might become a dead end.
The Russian upgrade path of the Su-30SM is very promising - and probably not too expensive. Basically all Su-35 technologies - engine, radar, sensors. Should make the MKI very, very potent with some of those VLRAAMs. But it would be nice to have an AESA instead.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by V_Raman »

I think we are on the cusp of a revolution in warfare with UAVs -> 2040s -> we will well and truly be in UCAV and Swarm territory - technology is maturing very very fast in that area. We better shape up - we dont even have the capability to manufacture basic loitering drones - like the ones used in Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict. We have a good enough domestic fighter in Mk1, Mk1A, and MWF to fill the numbers till 2040 - fully productionize by end of this decade and roll out. We should intensely focus on UAVs.

Maybe work with Boeing to convert one of Tejas Mk1s to a drone like QF-16 :twisted: 8)
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Philip »

F-18s can't operate from our 2 current carriers because of lift sizes. There are enough aircraft for both carriers right now and no 3rd. CV is on the horizon,why buy the aircraft now for something that will even if decided upon today,will arrive post- 2030?!

The ROP of Tejas and performance will determine the MMRCA buy.The intense US pressure to buy either of its aging beauties ,which were discarded by the IAF earlier, is complicating a clean decision.Adding yet another type to the IAF's fleet,most unwise from every angle. The emergency extra 12 MKIs and 21 MIG-29s to plug the increasing holes in the force was very prudent. We wait for the decision for the extra 80+ MK-1As in Dec.,but here again it's a leap of faith as the 1A still hasn't flown.

Eventually, the IAF may be forced to order more MKIs,29s,whatever LCAs can be built and an extra sqd. of Rafales, a combined total of 6+sqds., which will cost half the price of acquiring 120 of a new type,as all the training infra,support infra,weaponry,simulators,etc., are already in service leading too substantial cost reductions. A slew of indigenous weaponry is being perfected from Aastra BVR AAMs to smart LR PGMs,anti-radar ASMs,which is intended to be common to almost every type.The only AAM that we can't integrate with Ru aircraft is the Meteor BVR AAM,though Ru AAMs have been integrated onto M2Ks as seen in some pics posted. Another firang US fighter will only add to the missile menagerie and defeat the mantra of self-sufficiency.This policy does not apply to other US aircraft and weaponry purchased like P-8Is,C-130Js, LW 155mm howitzers,etc., stillinproduction and where the infra is in place for support,trg.,weaponry, etc. Extra 155mm BAe howitzers are sorely reqd. for the Himalayan front,a second tranche should be immediately ordered at if poss. the same prices as the first order in still in the pipeline.

This may be the best way forward, acquiring extra aircraft in small affordable tranches other than the Rafales which may cost around $2.5.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cain Marko »

V_Raman wrote:I think we are on the cusp of a revolution in warfare with UAVs -> 2040s -> we will well and truly be in UCAV and Swarm territory - technology is maturing very very fast in that area. We better shape up - we dont even have the capability to manufacture basic loitering drones - like the ones used in Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict. We have a good enough domestic fighter in Mk1, Mk1A, and MWF to fill the numbers till 2040 - fully productionize by end of this decade and roll out. We should intensely focus on UAVs.

Maybe work with Boeing to convert one of Tejas Mk1s to a drone like QF-16 :twisted: 8)
At the same time, radar and ammo tech is evolving too, and fast. We are already seeing GaN based AESA, which will have exceptional resolution and even tinyish targets will not escape their eyes. With airburst munitions like Oerlikon's AHEAD, smallish UAVs will find it hard to get through. The cat and mouse game continues....
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by V_Raman »

Fair - you are also making my point. Invest in those - develop such techs to get UAVs and counter UAVs.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Aditya_V »

One more coffin in MRCA F 16 21 Deal. IF UAE is getting 50 F-35's and 18 drones , then it would foolish to invest in new F-16's with related weapons and training etc etc...

https://apnews.com/article/bahrain-isra ... 33c9fcf610

I think in a few years down the line we will probably get 2-3 squadrons worth of F-35's.

The numbers will have to come from LCA MK-1, 1A, MWF, TEDBF etc.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by rajsunder »

V_Raman wrote:We really think tedbf can come in 12 years from now - 2032 - I don’t think so. We have not built mk1a yet. We have mwf to build as well. This is a twin engined fighter and a clean sheet design. I think 2035 is optimistic to before 2040 being realistic.

If the navy was serious - they would ask for mwf based carrier fighter. If LCA navy can be done - then mwf navy can be done too.

I am not advocating any foreign fighters. But 2032 is fan-boyish territory.
First of all its not a new design, they will have to work on the following for including twin engines instead of one

redesigning the fuselage to include 2 engines
redesign the wing structure for higher wing loads and change in aerodynamics due to canards
work on new control laws
new landing gear

much of this work has been done twice over , once for LCA where we learnt it the hard way and the second time for NLCA. Its just a repeat of the same work. I will not be surprised if we have a flying TEDBF by 2026/27. The MK2 version of TEDBF will be as good as a naval AMCA except on the stealth part.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/133 ... 85857?s=20 ---> Unsurprisingly, the Ladakh standoff & current India-China border flashpoints get their own slide in Saab's briefing today on the Gripen-E pitch to the IAF.

Image
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 58305?s=20 ---> Do read a pilot’s perspective (in VAYU) on flying the MiG-35 multirole light fighter, MiG's flagship. Chief Pilot of MiG Corporation, Hero of Russia Mikhail Belyaev talks about attributes of the MiG-35 & his impressions of flying 'one of the most modern Russian combat aircraft'.

Image

Image
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/13 ... 63488?s=20 ---> Despite Covid, top global defence companies head to AeroIndia, venue sold out. All top global and Indian companies taking part at show. Only exception is Sweden's Saab (which initially booked space but pulled out). Focus on export products on offer.

https://twitter.com/nileshjrane/status/ ... 74371?s=20 ---> The Gripen lobby in India finally losing steam..? Though bad news for those looking for free Cap. LOL.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 67520?s=20 ---> Best news ever, if this happens. Gripen was thoroughly unsuited for the IAF's needs and in direct competition with the LCA.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/13479 ... 90498?s=20 ---> Gripen-E is not a bad choice. But proliferating Saab's equipment on both sides of a hot border would be rather unwise.

https://twitter.com/nileshjrane/status/ ... 17440?s=20 ---> We will have to junk most of our equipment if that is the criteria, now that the second border has also become hot. Just saying. Cons of too much dependance on imports.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/13481 ... 73442?s=20 ---> Two ends in the spectrum of mil equip importers. Israel, Brazil, Japan, Korea, Sing, SA etc. Now even Ausie & Turkey. They contribute towards tech rev. Other end is Saudi, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Nigeria etc. The differences are obvious. Where in the spectrum should we be?

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 91842?s=20 ---> Well, if we get the Gripen E, the case for the MWF becomes that much weaker. IMHO, best we double down on the LCA, LCA++, and get a few more Rafales and close the MMRCA contest.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

On Rafale and deadly Panther choppers, India gets a huge offer from France
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 6-amp.html
10 Jan 2021
India and France have decided to intensify defence cooperation with Paris offering to shift 100% assembly line for Panther medium utility helicopters as well as 70% of the assembly line for Rafale fighters under “Make in India” rubric with full transfer of technology, people familiar with the matter said on Saturday.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Indranil »

This is an offer?!!!
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Joke onlee. This should be an outright rejection from the Indian side.

There is no need for a foreign helicopter, when ALH and LUH are there. I do not see what the Panther is honestly going to offer.

And as for the Rafale, 70% is hilarious. They keep the engine and other IP (30%), but will allow us to do screwdrivergiri on the remaining 70%.

Cancel that MRCA contest. It is a joke.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by hemant_sai »

We need 100+ fighters from outside to fill the gaps in this decade. By end of this decade, we will be truly on track with desi production and quality of fighters.
Instead of going for the best n costly affair which is also more elusive, mig 29 with full rights to customise on MWF path - not ToT . These new mig29 should be paired with GE 414 engines and Uttam if possible else just UPG versions are good enough to give us some relief till 2035.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

We do not need to license produce any new foreign 4th (or even 5th generation) fighter. Too long, too complicated and too much of a headache. The only fighter India needs to make is the Tejas Mk1A and then the Tejas Mk2 for the IAF. That's it. Nothing else. The only way to cancel the MMRCA contest is by ordering the Tejas Mk1 and Tejas Mk2 in numbers. I have said this before and I will say this again - the Mk1A is going to revolutionize the IAF. The Tejas has gone way beyond in being just a mere MiG-21 replacement.

Everything the Rafale does today, the Tejas Mk2 will do. And that is not from me, but from a number of IAF personnel. The first person that comes to mind is Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar (retd), the former AOC-in-C, Western Air Command, Indian Air Force and Tejas test pilot.

Another 2 - 3 squadrons more of the Rafale - via direct purchase from France - will make the investments at Hasimara and Ambala worth it. But nothing beyond that.

Unfortunately, too long, too complicated and too much of a headache is what India will likely end up doing. Really sad state of affairs.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by sankum »

Just buy 54 nos(3sq)Rafales in 2022-27 timeperiod for $8b. From 2027 Tejas mk2 @ 24/ year + Tejas mk1a/LIFT @ 20/ year till 2030 will give us 42 sq.
2030
Su 30 14sq
Rafale 5sq
Mig29 4sq
Jaguar 4sq
Mirage 2000 3sq
Tejas mk1/a 6 sq
Tejas LIFT 2sq
Tejas mk2 4sq

Total 42 sq.
Just give additional order for Tejas LIFT for 2 sq in 2028-30 timeperiod.

In 2030-35 6sq Tejas mk2 @24/year + 2sq AMCA mk1 @8/ year for total of 8sq to replace 2sq Jaguar+ 3sq Mig29+ 1sq Mirage 2000+ 2sq Su30 to maintain 42 sq.

In 2035-40 timeperiod 5sq AMCA mk2 @20/year will replace 2sq Mirage 2000+ 2sq Jaguar,+ 1sq mig 29 to maintain 42 sq.
Last edited by sankum on 12 Jan 2021 02:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by hemant_sai »

It is easy to put that buy 3sqd in 8bn - 1st 3 sqd will cost more than 9 bn but not 8bn for sure.
2nd - govt is definitely not ready to get into any Rafale trouble so even if such proposal gets nod it will take years to finalize and if doesn't happen by 2022, no way it will happen till 2024 due to elections.

And yes we are putting optimistic figures of desi production.

Corona happened in 2020. Rafale 36 emergency was done in 2015. What stopped govt to go for another 36 before 2020?

I am sure if IAF remains firm on Rafale, it won't get it before 2024 and there are less chances after that provided we make good progress on SAMs n UCAVs.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by hemant_sai »

I am just bit realistic. Even if Mk1A contract for 200 planes is signed this month, can we get them all by 2027? Of course not by all means.

If we sign for 120 mig29 UPG by Jun this year, there are more chances we will get those by 2027.
If we don't want licence built here, order all as fly away made in Russia. It will be even cheaper.

Rafale deal for another 36 is not going to happen this year n neither next year. Plus 36 will cost almost double the deal of 120 mig29s.
We do need numbers and planes before 2027.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

No Hemant, that will not happen. Let us examine your own timeline that you have indicated above.

If a deal for 120 MiG-29UPG is signed this year, the first batch will not arrive before 2024. It takes three years from contract signature to arrival of first batch. And to have a 120 aircraft order completed by 2027 (three years from 2024), one is looking at a delivery schedule of 40 aircraft per year. There is no way, Mikoyan, HAL or even a private player is going to churn out 40 birds each year. Not going to happen. The 21 MiG-29s that have been requested for (and awaiting CCS clearance) will also take three years from contract signature. They will arrive only by 2024, if the deal is signed today. Three years is the industry standard.

And same will be true for Rafale as well. The line at Merignac, France can churn out 33 birds a year. However Dassault does only 11 per year, because that is the bare minimum required to keep the line active. Any increase in delivery schedule will also require the customer to pay for that. A follow on deal for 36 - 54 aircraft, will see the first batch arrive only by 2024. Same was true with the first Rafale deal. Signed in Sept 2016 and delivery occurred in Sept 2019. Exactly three years. And arrival date (July 2020) is different from delivery date (Sept 2019).
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by sankum »

I am keeping the weapon package Indian for the $8 b figure to be paid in 2022-27 @$1.6b per year though the delivery will be after a gap.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by hemant_sai »

Does anyone knows why mwf delivery timelines are projected from 2028?
There is no mention of any mwf contract getting signed by 2025?
Development n Certification activities are expected to finish by 2026.
Practically estimates for mwf deliveries cannot be before 2030.
So when we count for sqdns by 2030, it is better to not include MWF sqdns.
Since same lines of Mk1A will be used for MWF so we cannot even expect for additional sadns of Mk1A as that will further delay MWF production.

So we don't have choice but to import so that there are some parallel deliveries from 2024-2030.
I am biased towards sufficient numbers than going for the best. By 2024 we will be having our own stand off weapons so at least attack capability will be matched with Rafale to better extent.
And our EW capability will also mature to sufficient level.

These rejuvenated Migs alone will be sufficient for western adversary. All other platforms can be focused on eastern front.

This will not be valid only if we are planning to eliminate western threat before 2025.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Aditya_V »

The same argument killed the the Marut, I will repeat we cannot win any large scale war with a majority of foreign weapons. Even in 1971 had to stop air raids on PAF airbases since SU-7B ran out of 3 drop tanks etc.

You need a domestic ecosystem of suppliers to win wars and have strategic security.

Only in our country given the local suppliers , Capex and help in future programmes we want domestic supplies to cheaper than imports, in other countries unless the Life cycle costs of imports is say 25% of Domestic alternative, they will go for domestic alternative.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by LakshmanPST »

As per B S Dhanoa ji, 42 squadrons requirement of IAF is for full spectrum of operations in a 2-front war... With current strength, IAF can carry out full spectrum of operations on one front while defending the 2nd front...
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By 2028, this will be the squadron strength of IAF--->
14 sqdns - Su30MKI
4 sqdns - MIG29
3 sqdns - Mirage 2000
6 sqdns - Tejas Mk1/1A
2 sqdns - Rafale
4 sqdns - Jaguars
2 sqdns - MMRCA or Additional Rafale

That is 35 squadrons...
35 squadrons is more than the current 30 squadrons and is pretty good strength & manageable for IAF...

The next major retirement of jets is coming only around 2035 when MIG29s, Mirage 2000s and remaining Jaguars retire...
Tejas Mk2 is the replacement for these jets...
Even if Contract signing happens in 2028 instead of 2026, we will see the first jets coming out starting 2031 and by 2035, the production rate will stabilize and peak...
Infact, we will already be having 2-3 squadrons of MWF by 2035, increasing the squadron strength even more... And I have not even considered AMCA which will be in production by then...

So, I don't see a need to procure 120 MIG29s...
Considering each jet to cost 50 Million dollars, 120 MIG 29s will cost atleast 6 Billion dollars and if we add associated weapons, upgrades etc., it will be atleast 10-12 Billion Dollars for a jet that does not have any future...
It will be just waste of precious money...
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The only immediate need I see is 83 Mk1A and 2-3 more squadrons of Rafale...
Once these procurements are done, IAF will get some air...
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by hemant_sai »

:) I agree to @Laxman ji and I am more than happy to scrap 100+ Mig29 suggestion.
For 2 sqdns of firang addition via MMRCA/G-to-G, I hope IAF sets strict timeline of MAR-2022 for contract signing with MoD.

But if it is just 2 sqdns to care for - I would still go for Mig29s and use all the savings towards accelerating indigenous projects and infra.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

There is no need for any more MiG-29s, than the ones in service + the 21 being acquired. The Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 are the future of the IAF.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Philip »

Not add another 120 29s,raise the total no. to 120 UPGs which will give 6 sqds. They're cheap at only $40M a pop given the cost mentioned for the 21 extras. The Tejas Mk1/1A no. should be around 200 built on extra lines as the Bisons too will be retiring in this decade. Hundreds of legacy MIGs of various types have/are retiring.Only large nos. of Tejas can cost-effectively replace them.
Remember that around 200MKIs must also be upgraded to SS std.,all BMos capable with 150KM AAMs ASTRA-ER ,etc.and the BMos AWACS killer AAM too. A few extra sqds. of SS MKIs , 29s and increased LCA nos. will negate the need for another firang type and the money saved invested in AMCA which has a more promising future than than a TE Tejas being a 5th. gen.fighter.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Why Indian Air Force wants to rush Rafale Fighters into front line service
https://guardingindia.com/india/why-ind ... e-service/
14 Jan 2021
“In terms of whether we go in for more Rafale or multirole fighter aircraft, it will be an open competition, as it is currently planned. We have received the RFI (Request for Information) responses. So this entire subject is under discussion and debate. And when this situation and the picture becomes clear and we finalize the way forward, we will share with you,” Bhadauria said in an address to the media at the beginning of this month.
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