MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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ldev
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ldev »

KSingh wrote:
asbchakri wrote:https://theprint.in/defence/french-dass ... plit/98262

.........
Asked what happens to the subsequent need for the IAF, the sources said that a follow-on order will be placed to the joint venture and this deal would be in Indian currency.
Around and around the circus goes

20 years ago- MMRCA 126= 18 off the shelf and 108 made in india (majority of work share done by HAL)

2015-2022 ‘MRFA’=18 off the shelf and 96 made via SPM in india with a partner of OEM’s choice

2022- MRFA 2.0= 18 off the shelf and 36 made via buy (global), make in India route

Forgetting that it’s almost inconceivable that any foreign OEM would want to go to the cost of creating such expensive production infrastructure in india for so few units one has to wonder what the actual goal is here. Getting fighter jets doesn’t seem to be- they’ve had 20+ years to get just ~100 fighters and have not made any progress whatsoever. This is beyond lunacy
I think it will happen this time around. The Russia Ukraine slugfest and political uncertainty associated with it has taken the old standby SU-30 paradigm -fill up with additional SU-30 orders when faced with a squadron shortfall -out of the equation. So a new standby (insurance policy) is needed, local assembly line included, to account for any delays in the development and induction of the Tejas Mk 2 as well as AMCA. This new aircraft will act as the filler and if there are substantial delays in the Tejas Mk 2 and AMCA, I would say that the ultimate order will be more than 114 planes. Notably, after the first 54 aircraft, additional orders will be placed with the JV in Indian rupees, very similar to SU-30 orders placed with HAL.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

nash wrote:Late CDS Rawat suggested the Staggered approach in case of MRFA which is in sync with the article by Snehesh Alex Philip.
Most likely a G2G deal for both MRFA and MRCBF.
That is where they are leading towards. But the GOI will soon realize that doing screwdrivergiri on small orders (18 off the shelf + 36 assembly + 57 later) will be exorbitantly expensive and not viable. The only way this line will be feasible is if Dassault opens a second line (in India) with confirmed international Rafale orders (Indonesia and UAE). There is no indication that is going to happen.

In light of that, it makes no financial sense for India to pay for a line that Dassault will charge an arm and a leg to assemble just 36 aircraft. And that is something that India will not pay. So something is definitely in the works (in the background). The leaks that are spilling out in the media (split the order of 114 into two OR that 114 is still on the cards) alludes to the fact that some backroom negotiations are going on. What exactly that is, remains unknown and will only be revealed when appropriate.

There is another (and crucial to the IAF's MRFA deal) issue that is awaiting completion ---> the navy's MRCBF competition. If Dassault wins (IMVHO it will be unlikely) then it gives a huge impetus to the IAF's MRFA competition and would make the assembly line more viable. The greater the number of airframes, cheaper will be the overall cost of the deal, because that cost will be spread out over that many number of airframes. Plus the GOI would prefer to work with just one contractor, rather than two. And yes Bala, I am aware you will catch me on this contradiction :)

The problem with the Rafale M is that in a number of key areas, the F-18SH just outshines her. The biggest advantage are those 8 twin seater F-18Fs that are carrier compatible. That is a huge advantage for Boeing. Eight airframes - out of a tiny fleet of 26 - is a huge bonus to any naval air arm. A technical win for the Rafale M would be interesting, because it would be nice to know on what measures the Navy found her superior over the Rhino. I am not seeing many.

But there is a dark horse supporter for the Rafale M. The new CDS might be from the IAF. The official GOI gazette notification - just posted that in the CDS thread - appears that it might be an air force officer. We all know how much the IAF finds the Rhino lacking. The IAF will not touch that bird with a hundred foot barge pole. Even Boeing is aware of this fact. Thus Boeing is bringing in the F-15EX.

But if the new CDS is indeed an IAF officer, then it is likely game over. Even Snehesh Alex Philip's article is stating that the IAF is pleased with the Rafale. This should come as no surprise to anyone, as the IAF has long been impressed with French maal. The way the system is set up is that the CDS has the final say in any procurement. So he will recommend X platform and the Govt will adopt that recommendation. And the CDS will make that recommendation with full support of the Navy. There will be no disagreement. The meagre CAPEX that the IAF gets annually makes it unlikely for any other platform other than the Rafale.

And unlike the IAF's MiG-29 and the IN's MiG-29 fleets, the Rafale C and the Rafale M are just cosmetically different. They are virtually identical to each other, barring the strengthened undercarriage and the arrestor hook in the Rafale M. The aircraft is easily workable in the IAF.

But weirder things have happened in Indian military procurement. A Dassault win is not guaranteed by any measure. Rafale is politically radioactive for the GOI. Interesting times ahead...
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:And this is just what the French do, the US is even more intrusive and tech is even less transferable and yet some are clamoring for F-18/21/15?
The folks clamoring for F-18/21/15 have a valid reason (in their eyes) for that.

Nothing screams "I-am-firmly-in-the-American-Camp..." like operating a US-built fighter.

When we look at American allies the world over (South Asia, South East Asia, Western Europe, Middle East) almost everyone - if not all - operate an American-built fighter. India - on the other hand - despite being labelled as a strategic partner by the United States has yet to bite and thus the clamoring. And American-built fighters have tremendous advantages like access to the largest array of air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry. But those advantages also come in with similarly negative outcomes.

The "clamoring folks" on BRF (to quote the Johnson Treatment) use ---> "...a mixture of persuasion, badgering, flattery, threats, reminders of past favors and future advantages." All those strategies were adopted by them. Every strategy under the sun. Nothing stuck. What surprises me is why these folks come to BRF to convince us SDREs. We are close/narrow minded after all :lol:

The wet dreams (at night) of US-built fighters in IAF and IN roundels flying alongside their USAF and USN counterparts is too exciting a prospect. Damn that Nehru & Modi and their non-alignment & multi-polar alignment strategies. Buy American and Be Eternally Happy! India operating an American-built fighter is the psychological fulfillment of the only reality these folks know. Pax Americana must endure.

I don't have a crystal ball to predict the future, but India could finally cave in one day. Who Knows!

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... VdXXy8g_Bg ---> US Congressman Austin Scott says he is very concerned about India's demand for technology transfer of US equipment to Indian companies.

See this video KSingh. Watch the entire thing ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7887&p=2552632#p2552632

The hilarity of the interviewer. She tried her level best to get Jaishankar to choose between Russia/China and the US. He did not bite. America has yet to graduate from the "You-Are-Either-With-Us-Or-You-Are-Against-Us" strategy. But the world is not black and white.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:
nash wrote:Late CDS Rawat suggested the Staggered approach in case of MRFA which is in sync with the article by Snehesh Alex Philip.
Most likely a G2G deal for both MRFA and MRCBF.
That is where they are leading towards....
What disturbs me is how EUM isn’t even mentioned in these large procurement projects, that’s a burden the Indian military will have to accept for the next 30+ years with a new system. All these systems they want to to bring online in the coming decades will have to either be separated or compliant to Western EUM

What really irks is that import crowd says that imports are a means to make less reliant on foreign whims when the exact opposite is the case

Just order 57 Rafales and close the story of imported fighters in IAF for good. What is this MMRCA 3.0 farce for?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

MMRCA 3.0 farce is to avoid a single vendor situation. Same reason with the MRCBF competition. Procurement rules do not permit single vendor purchases. Everything has to go through a competition. This time around, the wait will be with the MRCBF contest. That is the one to watch. Decision will be known by the end of this year. Ordering 57 Rafales off the shelf - for IAF - will open up a new can of worms.

But IF Dassault wins (and that is a big IF) fair and square in the MRCBF contest, it will blow the air right out of the opposition in India. At that point, the political leverage that the GOI will have, will be sizeable. Makes it more palatable - to sell to the public - on the idea of 57 (or whatever number) Rafales for the IAF.

Don't pay attention to the import crowd. Enjoy their posts with popcorn :)
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote:MMRCA 3.0 farce is to avoid a single vendor situation. Same reason with the MRCBF competition. Procurement rules do not permit single vendor purchases. Everything has to go through a competition. This time around, the wait will be with the MRCBF contest. That is the one to watch. Decision will be known by the end of this year. Ordering 57 Rafales off the shelf - for IAF - will open up a new can of worms.

But IF Dassault wins (and that is a big IF) fair and square in the MRCBF contest, it will blow the air right out of the opposition in India. At that point, the political leverage that the GOI will have, will be sizeable. Makes it more palatable - to sell to the public - on the idea of 57 (or whatever number) Rafales for the IAF.

Don't pay attention to the import crowd. Enjoy their posts with popcorn :)
There was already a competition. And the Rafale won it, on the basis of which the G2G deal for 36 was signed. I don't think without the Rafale being selected in the original MRCA, the G2G deal would have been possible. Why can't that justification be used now for what is essentially a follow on order? What was the point of that decade long process then and what is the guarantee the next one will not be a similar decade long boondoggle with nothing to show for it in the end?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:MMRCA 3.0 farce is to avoid a single vendor situation. Same reason with the MRCBF competition. Procurement rules do not permit single vendor purchases. Everything has to go through a competition. This time around, the wait will be with the MRCBF contest. That is the one to watch. Decision will be known by the end of this year. Ordering 57 Rafales off the shelf - for IAF - will open up a new can of worms.

But IF Dassault wins (and that is a big IF) fair and square in the MRCBF contest, it will blow the air right out of the opposition in India. At that point, the political leverage that the GOI will have, will be sizeable. Makes it more palatable - to sell to the public - on the idea of 57 (or whatever number) Rafales for the IAF.

Don't pay attention to the import crowd. Enjoy their posts with popcorn :)
As mentioned above the Rafale was already selected UNDER THE UPA government in an transparent process, if the GoI with a 100+ seat majority with China at the gates cannot take the decision for their national interest then I want nothing to do with them. What was ever proven with the Rafale accusations? Not a thing. Not really a shred of evidence, it didn’t cost even a single vote even.

I can understand the need for a competition for MRCBF- in fact it’s sensible to do so given the issues present with Vikrant/Rafale potentially so that Dassualt pull out all the stops.

But even entertaining the idea that they’ll order another MMRCA with Rafale already in service honestly gives me a headache in sheer frustration. $2billion in ISE and bases that can each support 2 Rafale squadrons for what? In the interim at least order another 2 Rafale squadrons off the shelf as IAF numbers are in freefall.

GoI has potentially blown it as now Rafale production seems
Backed up until late 2020s
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

nachiket wrote:There was already a competition. And the Rafale won it, on the basis of which the G2G deal for 36 was signed. I don't think without the Rafale being selected in the original MRCA, the G2G deal would have been possible. Why can't that justification be used now for what is essentially a follow on order? What was the point of that decade long process then and what is the guarantee the next one will not be a similar decade long boondoggle with nothing to show for it in the end?
You can't use that justification, as of YET.

The problem lies with the fact that the MoD has put out a RFI for 'X' number of 4th generation MRFA. Every contestant under the sun has stepped into the fray. But the IAF can eliminate them all, with the exception of two birds ---> Rafale F3R(I) and F-15EX. Those are the only two serious contenders. The rest are just not going to cut it with the IAF. But the contest is public. On what basis can the Govt just announce that MRFA is being cancelled and we are going ahead with Dassault? All the OEMs will raise a hue and cry. And we all know the end result of that.

The politically safer route is let the contest play out. This is why the decision in the MRCBF contest is crucial. The IAF will not accept the F-18SH and will be wary to touch the F-15EX (due to fear of sanctions). But technically, the F-15EX is more than a match for the Rafale F3R(I). However the Eagle-II's Achilles heel lies in the OPEX. But even that would have been affordable, if the IAF did not field a fleet of 260+ Su-30MKIs (another OPEX guzzler). But if Dassault wins in the MRCBF contest, then the GOI has more political wiggle room to open negotiations with Dassault for a sizeable order (26 + 57 = 83 aircraft).

One aircraft for multiple services. You cannot use F-15EX on an aircraft carrier. But to be fair, you cannot use Rafale C on an aircraft carrier either. However, seeing the threat scenario at present...the greater need for fighter aircraft lies with the air force and not the navy. Easier to slot Rafale M with Rafale C in the North and North East. Same weaponry, same radar, same sensors....it is the same plane! Boeing cannot make that claim with the F-18SH and F-15EX. They are two different beasts.

So if Dassault wins the MRCBF, then the argument that can be put forth is acquiring 114 (or 57) MRFA is time consuming and acquisitions of aircraft presently in service is the best path ahead. Also, while technically superior (in areas) to the Rafale F3R(I), the F-15EX is no VLO fighter. It is not a game changer like the F-35. There is nothing of significance that the F-15EX can do, that will negate what the Rafale F3R(I) is capable of in the Indian scenario. So even in that respect, Rafale has the upper hand.

The problem is if the F-18SH gains the upper hand in the MRCBF contest, then the MRFA contest will play out to its conclusion. And in that scenario, the F-15EX could likely end up as the technically superior aircraft. And if that happens, it will result in a repetition of the MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 acquisitions of the 1980s. The IAF will not be able to afford 114 Rafales and will certainly not be able to afford 114 F-15EXs either. So then a truncated order of 36 - 54 F-15EXs will be ordered.

But neither fleet (Rafale or F-15EX) will live up to their full potential in the IAF, just like the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29. And the money invested in the first Rafale deal will go to waste and that will be the real Rafale scam. And the Damocles sword will always be hanging over the IAF's head with the F-15EX. Good luck doing any desi jugaad on her. Everything will have to come from Uncle Sam.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:As mentioned above the Rafale was already selected UNDER THE UPA government in an transparent process, if the GoI with a 100+ seat majority with China at the gates cannot take the decision for their national interest then I want nothing to do with them. What was ever proven with the Rafale accusations? Not a thing. Not really a shred of evidence, it didn’t cost even a single vote even.
Everywhere in the world, this paradigm holds true ---> It does not matter what you believe, it only matters what you can prove.

In India, especially with defence deals, the reverse is true ---> ---> It does not matter what you can prove, it only matters what you believe.

The Rafale was cleared TWICE by the Supreme Court of India. Still RaGa claims that the Rafale was a scam. Because now it is a matter of personal prestige. He cannot be proven wrong. Every opposition party in India is claiming that the Rafale is a scam. This is one of many issues that they will continually fan into 2024. It is in their political interest to do.

Acquiring additional Rafales are politically radioactive, so the GoI has to tread really carefully. One small misstep and it will be blown way out of proportion. And when political committees and the legal system gets involved, then forget getting anything.
KSingh wrote:I can understand the need for a competition for MRCBF- in fact it’s sensible to do so given the issues present with Vikrant/Rafale potentially so that Dassualt pull out all the stops.

But even entertaining the idea that they’ll order another MMRCA with Rafale already in service honestly gives me a headache in sheer frustration. $2billion in ISE and bases that can each support 2 Rafale squadrons for what? In the interim at least order another 2 Rafale squadrons off the shelf as IAF numbers are in freefall.
To order 2 additional Rafale squadrons in the interm, will result in the cancellation of the MRFA contest. What convincing argument is there to justify this purchase? You, me and everyone on this forum is well aware of the IAF's squadron shortage.

But to the average Indian taxpayer back home, he/she is largely clueless about this shortage. They only thing that registers is SCAM. That is the only tangible that they understand. Whether the scam is real or fake is inconsequential. But there is a scam. Dal Mein Kuch To Kaala Hai.

And the Indian taxpayer is also the Indian voter. They decide on who will form the govt in 2024. So everything is a political calculation by this Govt (or for that matter any Govt) ---> If I purchase additional Rafales now, will it hurt me politically in 2024 or will it not?

As frustrating as that can be, it is how the system is. All we can do is hope that this Govt sees the wisdom and does not repeat the past mistakes.
KSingh wrote:GoI has potentially blown it as now Rafale production seems. Backed up until late 2020s.
That should not be a worry, if a second line is opened in India. That will likely happen, based on the recent reports.

Regardless of whichever MRFA chosen, it will not solve the squadron shortage though. That is a joke.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by konaseema »

The easy and the best possible option without the farce of a competition would be to order 1-2 squadrons of Tejas Mk1 and 4 additional squadrons of Tejas Mk1A or a combination of 4 additional squadrons of Mk1A & increase the number of squadrons of Mk2 to around 12. Negotiate a local manufacturing of GE 404 / 414 engines for future proofing and constant supply of spares or else order 200 odd engines of each type and spares for the next 10-15 years. No more war fighting with fighters of foreign OEMs. No need to fear the non-existent opposition and left leaning media outlets.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by konaseema »

Does anyone remember if there was a follow on order clause inserted with the initial Rafale purchase? That might the best / last option before we all perform the antim sanskar for the MRFA contest.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

konaseema wrote:Does anyone remember if there was a follow on order clause inserted with the initial Rafale purchase? That might the best / last option before we all perform the antim sanskar for the MRFA contest.
No such clause AFAIK.

In hindsight, not a good decision. But hindsight is always 20/20.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Anujan »

All the yelling about "SCAM" did not stick with the Indian voter. RaGa is going to yell "SCAM" for everything.

Fortunately he also has a tendency to put his foot in the mouth often. Like how he claimed that Tamil Nadu and Uttarpradesh had "negotiated peace" during 1947!! (Hint: There was no Tamil Nadu in 1947*). And also recently complained that our diplomats listen too much to Government of India and not much to foreign governments :shock:

Even last time around Media/Defence types and others supported GOI for G2G procurement of Rafale (no middleman, no nonsense). So I am hoping this time it flies.

It would be better if we work out a comprehensive technology partnership with France as part of the deal: In the domain of Subs, Tanks, Jet Engines and Fighter Aircraft and MRO for all those.


* There was "madras presidency" which included all peninsular states. Then in 1950 there was "madras state" which included karnataka and andhra coastal regions, which was re-organized in 1956, and that madras state was renamed as tamil nadu in 1969, we dont expect idiots to know this nuances)
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by konaseema »

I think it is going to be an agonizing wait for all of us and that will be there for few more years. MRFA if it ever happens, may happen post 2024 May general elections. By then a few things could have happened already. Both Tejas Mk1 & Mk2 would have flown already or Mk2 would be doing taxi trials. In which case, the IAF will then have to answer more questions to justify on why not they order more of the Tejas variants. That said, we are seeing more evidence in the recent orders, that this govt means business when it comes to its commitment towards Atmanirbar in the defense purchases. So with the Indian govt ready to play the waiting game, I see the push towards spending on Indian made defense equipment gathering steam and momentum. So I am already having my pipe dream of 18 to 22 Squadrons of different Tejas variants by 2035, laced with Astra, Rudram, SAAW & Brahmos NG in its pylons. It is a long wait my friends, a long wait.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by wig »

IAF’s Make in India fighter jet project takes wings, around 100 aircraft to be built at home
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2022-06-12
12 June 2022
Top government sources told India Today that the Aatmanirbhar push will, for the first time, see Indian currency being used to make payments for almost 70 per cent cost of the project.

“The plan is to build 96 planes in India for which payments for 36 would be made partially in Indian and partially in foreign currency. For the last 60 aircraft, the payments would be made in Indian currency only,” they said.

The IAF has plans of buying 114 planes, which would be used for augmenting its combat capabilities and replacing its outgoing fleet of MiG series planes. The first 18 aircraft in the project would be imported from the home base of a foreign vendor chosen after conducting limited trials of aircraft in competition. Companies like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, MIG, Dassault and Saab are in the race for the project which is expected to be completed in three years.

The IAF first floated the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender to procure 126 new combat jets from foreign OEMs in 2007. It was proposed to continue building upon the capabilities and keeping the sanctioned strength of combat jets as the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, a planned indigenous replacement for the IAF’s aging fleet, needed more time to be able to fill the gaps.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

* So 18 (one unit) directly from OEM
* Then 36 (two units) - partially in Indian currency and partially in Dollar, Euro, Krona or Rubles currency.
* Then 60 (three plus units) - in full Indian currency
* Decision is *EXPECTED* to be completed in three years :lol:

Round and round the merry go round we go...
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by arvin »

Hmm....Indian currency....Looks like offset clause includes giving work to Nashik printing press.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by SSridhar »

IAF plans to build 96 new fighter jets domestically in bid to boost 'Make in India' - ANI
Amid a big push for the Aatmanirbhar Bharat scheme by the PM Narendra Modi-led government, the Indian Air Force is planning to acquire 114 Indian Air Force fighter jets of which 96 would be built in India, and rest 18 would be imported from the foreign vendor chosen for the project.

The Indian Air Force has plans of acquiring 114 Multirole Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) under 'Buy Global and Make in India' scheme under which Indian companies would be allowed to partner with a foreign vendor.

"Recently, the Indian Air Force held meetings with the foreign vendors and asked them about the way they would carry out the Make in India project," government sources told ANI.

As per the plan, after the initial 18 aircraft are imported, the next 36 aircraft would be manufactured within the country and the payments would be made partially in foreign currency and Indian currency, the sources said.

The last 60 aircraft would be the main responsibility of the Indian partner and the government would make payments only in Indian currency
, the sources said.

The payment in Indian currency would help the vendors to achieve the over 60 per cent 'Make-in-India' content in the project, the sources said.

Global aircraft manufacturers including Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Saab, MiG, Irkut Corporation and Dassault Aviation are expected to participate in the tender.

The Indian Air Force has to rely heavily on these 114 fighter jets for maintaining its superiority over the neighboring rivals Pakistan and China.

The 36 Rafale aircraft procured under emergency orders helped immensely in maintaining an edge over the Chinese during the Ladakh crisis which started in 2020 but the numbers are not enough and more such capability would be required by it.

The force has already placed orders for 83 of the LCA Mk 1A aircraft but it still requires a higher number of capable aircraft as a large number of MiG series planes have either been phased out or are on their last legs.

The fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft project is moving ahead at a satisfactory pace but it will take a lot of time to be able to be inducted in an operational role.

The IAF is also looking for a cost-effective solution for its fighter jet requirement as it wants a plane that is low on operational cost and gives more capability to the service, the sources said.

The IAF is highly satisfied with the operational availability of the Rafale fighter jets and wants similar capability in its future aircraft.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ldev »

wig wrote:IAF’s Make in India fighter jet project takes wings, around 100 aircraft to be built at home
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2022-06-12
12 June 2022

“The plan is to build 96 planes in India for which payments for 36 would be made partially in Indian and partially in foreign currency. For the last 60 aircraft, the payments would be made in Indian currency only,” they said.
From an industrial manufacturing standpoint I think Boeing has a better than even chance here, given how the sourcing is structured. It will require the chosen vendor to establish substantial operations in India. Boeing already has a huge presence in India with 3000+ employees, sources more than USD 1 billion of parts and components per annum from India for it's global operations and has a large support operation for the C-17, P-8 and Chinook fleets. It has experience in managing the Indian rupee to foreign exchange exposure of such operations which will be vital given the fact that the bulk of this fighter purchase will have a rupee component. None of the other competitors have anything close to Boeing's scale of operations in India. Also both of Boeing's potential offerings, the F-15 and F-18 are for all practical purposes winding up their US assembly lines which can be transplanted to India over the next 2-4 years. For all other competitors, new and therefore costlier assembly lines will have to be established in India.

Our sourcing from India is at approximately $1 billion today: Salil Gupte, President, Boeing India
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote:* So 18 (one unit) directly from OEM
* Then 36 (two units) - partially in Indian currency and partially in Dollar, Euro, Krona or Rubles currency.
* Then 60 (three plus units) - in full Indian currency
* Decision is *EXPECTED* to be completed in three years :lol:

Round and round the merry go round we go...
We are doing everything in our power to lose the next war by going round and round with this program.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by bala »

IAF plans to build 96 fighter jets in India under Rs 1.5 lakh cr for 114 combat aircraft

https://infra.economictimes.indiatimes. ... t/92169406

13 June, 2022
New Delhi: Amid a big push for the Aatmanirbhar Bharat scheme by the PM Narendra Modi-led government, the Indian Air Force is planning to acquire 114 fighter jets of which 96 would be built in India, and rest 18 would be imported from the foreign vendor chosen for the project. The Indian Air Force has plans of acquiring 114 Multirole Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) under 'Buy Global and Make in India' scheme under which Indian companies would be allowed to partner with a foreign vendor." Recently, the Indian Air Force held meetings with the foreign vendors and asked them about the way they would carry out the Make in India project," government sources told.

As per the plan, after the initial 18 aircraft are imported, the next 36 aircraft would be manufactured within the country and the payments would be made partially in foreign currency and Indian currency, the sources said. The last 60 aircraft would be the main responsibility of the Indian partner and the government would make payments only in Indian currency, the sources said. The payment in Indian currency would help the vendors to achieve the over 60 per cent 'Make-in-India' content in the project, the sources said.Global aircraft manufacturers including Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Saab, MiG, Irkut Corporation and Dassault Aviation are expected to participate in the tender.

The Indian Air Force has to rely heavily on these 114 fighter jets for maintaining its superiority over the neighboring rivals Pakistan and China.The 36 Rafale aircraft procured under emergency orders helped immensely in maintaining an edge over the Chinese during the Ladakh crisis which started in 2020 but the numbers are not enough and more such capability would be required by it.The force has already placed orders for 83 of the LCA Mk 1A aircraft but it still requires a higher number of capable aircraft as a large number of MiG series planes have either been phased out or are on their last legs. The fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft project is moving ahead at a satisfactory pace but it will take a lot of time to be able to be inducted in an operational role. The IAF is also looking for a cost-effective solution for its fighter jet requirement as it wants a plane that is low on operational cost and gives more capability to the service, the sources said. The IAF is highly satisfied with the operational availability of the Rafale fighter jets and wants similar capability in its future aircraft.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ramana »

Every day it looks like the import lobby is sitting inside IAF as its chief.
Have not seen such overt and vocal import lobby earlier times.
VRC will go down after PC Lal* as the most successful spoiler of Military Integration.
Tried level best to undercut Theater Commands, pushes for over-the-top MRFA which will break budgets and introduce 3X lifetime costs.
Same IAF did not buy Hammer bombs when they chose Rafale.
Gen Rawat had to recommend those purchases or India would have hanger queens.
In the 1990s IAF bought Paveway bombs from the UK and didn't even try to integrate them on planes till Kargil War was upon us.
We saw those hushed articles claiming credit for doing that during the war while any normal air force would do it before.

*PCL did his damndest to ensure no CDS after the 1971 war by poisoning the well with nonsense about Gen JN Chaudhri.
After the Kutch attack war was there for everyone to see except for IAF and IN.
And Delhi was leaking like a sieve and secrecy was paramount.
The plans were between Defence Minster Chavan and Gen Chaudhri right after Kutch.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by S_Madhukar »

The number of “plans” that are produced would make us #2 airforce already. What are these guys doing, playing DCS? And why does our media give out so many exact numbers. Meanwhile Eleven will park exactly same number in Hotan and ink will not even have dried on our “planned” planes
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Karan M »

ramana wrote:Every day it looks like the import lobby is sitting inside IAF as its chief.
Have not seen such overt and vocal import lobby earlier times.
VRC will go down after PC Lal* as the most successful spoiler of Military Integration.
Tried level best to undercut Theater Commands, pushes for over-the-top MRFA which will break budgets and introduce 3X lifetime costs.
Same IAF did not buy Hammer bombs when they chose Rafale.
Gen Rawat had to recommend those purchases or India would have hanger queens.
In the 1990s IAF bought Paveway bombs from the UK and didn't even try to integrate them on planes till Kargil War was upon us.
We saw those hushed articles claiming credit for doing that during the war while any normal air force would do it before.

*PCL did his damndest to ensure no CDS after the 1971 war by poisoning the well with nonsense about Gen JN Chaudhri.
After the Kutch attack war was there for everyone to see except for IAF and IN.
And Delhi was leaking like a sieve and secrecy was paramount.
The plans were between Defence Minster Chavan and Gen Chaudhri right after Kutch.
I still cant understand why IAF is persisting with this absurd MRFA proposal which is simply unaffordable?! Is someone inside MOD leading them up the garden path by saying they have a valid case?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by basant »

MRFA is an urgent necessity as Mk2 is expected to fly in 2023. We heard the expression, 'give a dog a bad name and hang him'. Now we don't even want it to take birth. I have for long felt that Mk1A would be adequate given the time and other constraints as a Mig-21+Jaguar replacement. It is even more so odd that Mk1A is not deemed adequate for Pak just when a Mig-21 knocked out F-16 in a real battle.

A couple of Rafale squadrons and upgrade of Su 30 MKIs to Super Sukhoi standard should be fine till AMCA arrives. However, Su 30 MKI's upgrade plans do not seem to have any sense of urgency that was otherwise expected.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ramana »

basant 83 Mk1A will be built
And the 40 Mk1 will get upgraded eventually to Mk1A standard.
MK2 is needed to bring in design improvements. It will be an M2k class plane.
These will be about 200 to replace the Jaguars etc.
about 270 Su-30MKI also will be upgraded.
And along with the AMCA is coming up.
I don't see any role for MRFA except to line the pockets of the few.
Who we don't know?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Karan M wrote:I still cant understand why IAF is persisting with this absurd MRFA proposal which is simply unaffordable?! Is someone inside MOD leading them up the garden path by saying they have a valid case?
The answer to that is in the bolded red part below. I don't believe it is someone (or some people) in the MoD, but rather it is Air HQ itself.

Air HQ wants MoD to believe that they need these 114 phoren jets to maintain air superiority over China / Pakistan. The fallacy in that statement is what happens if war breaks out in a few years (when MRFA contract will not even have been signed)? Does Air HQ believes that they will not be able to maintain air superiority as there will not be (forget 114) even one MRFA at that time? Because this is what they are claiming.

They believe 114 MRFA is valid and they will do everything in their power to get it.

The bolded part is green (if true) will rule out the F-15EX. The F-15EX will be inexpensive (compared to Rafale F4) to acquire, but the OPEX is high. They want 114 Rafales. That is what they want. If that yardstick is applied in the MRFA contest, the F-15EX will not make the cut. Otherwise, the IAF will have to retire (or at least a good number of them) the Rambha fleet. The oldest Rambha is barely 20 years old, as No 20 Lightnings was re-raised in Sept 2002 at Lohegaon AFS.
bala wrote:IAF plans to build 96 fighter jets in India under Rs 1.5 lakh cr for 114 combat aircraft

https://infra.economictimes.indiatimes. ... t/92169406

13 June, 2022
The Indian Air Force has to rely heavily on these 114 fighter jets for maintaining its superiority over the neighboring rivals Pakistan and China.

....

The IAF is also looking for a cost-effective solution for its fighter jet requirement as it wants a plane that is low on operational cost and gives more capability to the service, the sources said. The IAF is highly satisfied with the operational availability of the Rafale fighter jets and wants similar capability in its future aircraft.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by konaseema »

As we get closer to the D-day of the Tejas Mk1A & Tejas Mk2 first flight, we will continue to see these hit jobs. As long as the BJP government is in the office, I am confident that the order for Tejas Mk2 will be placed. Hence at the end of the day, as long as MRFA is not detrimental on the number of Tejas Mk2 being ordered and the Indian Govt can afford both in numbers (114 of MRFA & 180+ of Tejas Mk2), there is no need to be worried. The key is to order them in smaller lots (MRFA) so that we don't have to be in a similar position to replace them in 3 decades time all at once. I would be very happy if we purchase 3-4 additional of Rafale and fill in the rest of the numbers with additional Tejas Mk1A & Mk2.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by LakshmanPST »

I'm reading these articles about new iteration of the MRFA Tender... One thing I observed is that these new articles are claiming that only 5 contendors are in place... Gripen, Rafale, F21, F/A18 and F15...
Wonder what happened to MIG35, Su35 and Typhoon...
If indeed only these five jets are in contention, the saving grace will be that the technical downselection process will be faster...
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by bala »

We are talking about $20B for acquisition of the Videshi Birds and I am guessing another $20B will be spent on men/material/chai-biscoot/cheese-wine/videshi sight-seeing trips/training/maintenance over the lifetime, sub kuch gaya $40B on videshi maal, which could have been used to prop up desi maal. Every import is causing money to be burned elsewhere and not in India. And if there is no war then we can Brag about the very best Birds used by the force.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ArjunPandit »

ramana wrote:basant 83 Mk1A will be built
And the 40 Mk1 will get upgraded eventually to Mk1A standard.
MK2 is needed to bring in design improvements. It will be an M2k class plane.
These will be about 200 to replace the Jaguars etc.
about 270 Su-30MKI also will be upgraded.
And along with the AMCA is coming up.
I don't see any role for MRFA except to line the pockets of the few.
Who we don't know?
my CT is that we are doing this just to keep everyone guessing..if GOI wanted a deal..it would have been taken up like rafale was with french..htey just want to keep people busy with their agenda..one of the 48 laws of power is keep a semblance of old order..that's what is being done by this govt..every day this deal is not signed we get closer to Mk2...imagine when prototypes of mk2 are flying a hard question would be asked why not mk2..and why not more of mk1a..the only answer those folks would have is an engine...so it would boil down to a fully imported (make in india) vs a made in india just without engine..the answer is pretty clear to me..the only thing that can play spoilsport now is an early war..
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Pratyush »

Unless the PRC is rock sure of it's logistics capacity against India, a war will not happen. So even that threat is not real in the near future.

The Mk2 is the only solution. No more imports.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

LakshmanPST wrote:I'm reading these articles about new iteration of the MRFA Tender... One thing I observed is that these new articles are claiming that only 5 contendors are in place... Gripen, Rafale, F21, F/A18 and F15...
Wonder what happened to MIG35, Su35 and Typhoon...
If indeed only these five jets are in contention, the saving grace will be that the technical downselection process will be faster...
The Russian aircraft not being considered is understandable, seeing the war in Ukraine.

The Typhoon omission could be a mistake by the press reporter, as Eurofighter should still very much be in the game. It would be surprising if they pulled out or they were eliminated by the MoD already.

However, the only two serious contenders are Rafale and F-15EX. The F-21, Gripen E, Typhoon and F-18SH will not make the cut.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4280#p2553763

^^^ Addressing some of the claims from the article (click on link above)...

1) A possible MRFA contract by the end of this summer or early fall will be a shocker. The MRFA contest has only released a RFI to date. If true, which is highly doubtful, it will be the fastest acquisition of any military program in the history of Independent India.

2) The claim that the French plane is more suitable to Indian needs refers to the idea of how the French will look the other way, when the IAF does her desi jugaad on the Rafale. There is already talk of integrating BrahMos-NG on the Rafale. Expect Astra Mk2, SFDR, etc to also come along. That is a clear shot across the bow towards the American offerings i.e. F-15EX, F-18SH and F-21.

3) Replacing the Jaguar and MiG-29 fleets (and even Mirage 2000) with 114 MRFA + 36 Rafales is Air HQ's plan with this contest. While that fleet is around 10 units, the 114 MRFA will be 6+ units which will be combined with the 2 Rafale units presently in service. That will be 8+ units to replace the 10 units. That is the entire medium weight fleet of the Indian Air Force. The heavy weight component is the Su-30MKI and the light weight component is the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A.

4) The Russian offerings are obvious duds. Nothing will happen on that front.

5) Even the French author believes that the Gripen E will be similar in capability to the Tejas Mk2. Therefore Gripen E brings nothing to the table. The only plus that the Gripen E offers is the reliability of the aircraft plus the turbofan that powers her. But then again, the Tejas Mk2 offers the exact same thing. So Gripen E will not come.

6a) The claims made by the French author (with regards to the American offerings) are IMVHO stretching the truth. I am specifically referring to the F-15EX here. If she is too new, not well known enough and not yet used operationally....then so is the Rafale F4. I do understand the Rafale F4 is an iterative improvement over the Rafale F3R, but then again so is the F-15EX. But this is what the French author believes. He is 100% correct about the F-18SH though. I have heard that from a number of IAF pilots. They just don't think the Super Hornet is an effective air force fighter.

6b) That line in the article - about not profiting off the Dassault Rafale M - is a clear indication that the IAF wants the IN to acquire the Rafale M. The IAF believes the IN will benefit from fleet commonality with the IAF, plus the screwdrivergiri cost of the Rafale M from the Indian line. More aircraft acquired will result in a lower unit cost. Like stated before, for the first time in military aviation history, you have an air force eagerly pushing for a naval air arm as long as it is the Rafale. And that is very interesting, because air forces hate naval air arms and aircraft carriers.

The IN, on the other hand, has pushed back on that assertion and wants to acquire a platform independent of what the IAF is doing. This is a 180 reversal from Admiral Karambir Singh's statement that the IN will select whatever platform the IAF acquires. Acquiring the F-18SH will make the entire strike component of India's Naval Air Arm of US origin. The combination of the P-8I + the MH-60R + the Sea Guardian UAV and the F-18SH will be lethal, both operationally (positive) and geopolitically (negative). One of the rumours I have heard is that the latter is a worrisome scenario for the IN, because if sanctions are applied in the future...the entire naval air arm could be crippled in one fatal strike.

To the Rafale M's credit, the January 2022 naval air trials of the Rafale M at SBTF in Goa was not the first time she was examined by the IN. The Navy has been eying this bird for a very long time (15+ years if I am not mistaken). One former naval chief (when he was serving) even got a ride on a Rafale B. Below is Admiral Arun Prakash's view of the F-18SH and Rafale. This interview was post the technical downselect of MMRCA 1.0 that occurred on 27 April 2011;

MMRCA, Admiral Arun Prakash analysis of Indian military procurements
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/07/ ... is-of.html
11 July 2011
Having flown both the F/A-18 and the Rafale, I can say that while the former would certainly have met all the IAF requirements competently and economically, the breathtaking performance of the latter leaves one in no doubt that it is a “generation-next” machine. The Eurofighter Typhoon, by all accounts, is equally impressive.
Admiral Arun Prakash (retd) with a Dassault Rafale at Istres-Le Tubé Air Base in 2005.

Image
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:3) Replacing the Jaguar and MiG-29 fleets (and even Mirage 2000) with 114 MRFA + 36 Rafales is Air HQ's plan with this contest. While that fleet is around 10 units, the 114 MRFA will be 6+ units which will be combined with the 2 Rafale units presently in service. That will be 8+ units to replace the 10 units. That is the entire medium weight fleet of the Indian Air Force. The heavy weight component is the Su-30MKI and the light weight component is the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A.
8 MRFA units + 12 Su-30MKI units + 6 Tejas Mk1/Mk1A units = 26 squadrons. So short of 16 squadrons to reach the magic number of 42.

If you add 10 Tejas Mk2 units to that total, it will bring it up to 36, so still six short. The plan is for seven AMCA units to join in the future.

This is the math that Air HQ has gamed out.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Prasad »

There is the unmanned component that is a big ?
Will our UCAV and loyal wingman programs be mature enough for induction by 2030?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Prasad wrote:There is the unmanned component that is a big ?
Will our UCAV and loyal wingman programs be mature enough for induction by 2030?
Those assets will not feature in the 42 number. That is above and beyond 42.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by la.khan »

How about a compromise, sort of half way through (channelizing late Manohar Parrikar)? IN requires 57 jets while IAF wants 114 jets.

Why can't we have 111 Rafale jets manufactured in India, open a new line with a private sector partner? 57 Rafale M jets for IN, 54 Rafale C jets for IAF. IAF already has 2 squadrons of Rafale C in the inventory. Add 2-3 more squadrons of the same for IAF. There is broad agreement that 36 jets of Rafale is too measly to make any impact. IAF needs 2 more squadrons of Rafale. As for the IN, they need 57 jets, whether direct import or locally built.

So, why not club both the orders and ask Dassault to open a new line with a private partner (Tatas/Adanis/Ambanis/Mahindras/L&T/Godrej/whoever)? GoI pays Indian partner(s) in INR, have 111 jets delivered over 6-7 years, manufactured in India. Atma nirbhar Bharat. IAF & IN get what they want. More importantly, there is space/budget for 150+ Tejas MK2s. No?

Will this work?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by LakshmanPST »

There are many sensible options that will work...
But the decisions at MOD are a mix of Armed Forces' requirements, Armed Forces' fantasies, honest Bureaucrats following rules to save their a$$es, dishonest bureaucrats using rules to stall things, Govt.'s political situation, Lobbies' backdoor games and a host of other things...
Everyone knows that the logical thing to do is order 2-3 squadrons of Rafales directly and cancel this Tender...
But won't happen until some strong jhatka hits them to push some sense...
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Mort Walker »

I’ll bet some variation of this thread will exist in 2027, the 30th year of BRF, and we’ll still be talking about foreign combat aircraft acquisition.
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