MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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ldev
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ldev »

KSingh wrote:Firstly we have NO idea about the solution(s) Dassualt has offered to be compatible with Vikrant, ............
My bad. According to IDRW LINK
Dassault's solution was NOT a detachable wing, but removal of the wingtip missile rails every time the plane had to use the elevator. The other factor favoring Boeing, according to IDRW is that the TEDBF will use GE-414 engines (initially??) and hence commonality with the GE-414 engines with the Super Hornet....a reduction in spares since only one engine type is onboard. And lastly, price, as with with a low production run to date of only 46 examples of the Dassault Marine worldwide, the price is higher than the Rafale F3R acquired by the IAF.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:
kit wrote: :lol:
@ kit....look below.

Indian Navy to go for govt-to-govt deal with US or France for fighter planes
https://theprint.in/defence/indian-navy ... s/1025631/
05 July 2022
The sources, however, refused to divulge how Rafale and Super Hornets have performed and only said that both aircraft are “decent”. The final report is likely to give more details of both aircraft.
https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> Indian Navy has completed trials for deck-based fighters F/A-18SH of Boeing and Rafale-M of Dassault Aviation. "Trials of Rafale & Boeing F-18 have been done to prove their capability of operating from aircraft carriers. Our aim is indigenisation. We have a twin-engine deck-based fighter aircraft plan, but it will take some time," Vice Admiral SN Ghormade. A report is awaited, after which the case will be taken up. It will be an inter-governmental agreement.

Indeed Admiral.

There seems another hypothesized scenario. Deploying possible Indian F18s off American aircraft carriers :roll:
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Thakur_B »

Pratyush wrote:Meanwhile the KF21 has just made its first flight.
Someone at MoD must be sacked for not sending the Koreans an RFP for MRCA for they have sent it to everyone under the sun.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:There seems another hypothesized scenario. Deploying possible Indian F18s off American aircraft carriers :roll:
Kit, the Rafale M is fully compatible with the US Navy's Nimitz Class aircraft carriers. They have been for well over a decade, if not longer. If the Rafale M wins, the Indian Navy can comfortably operate her from Nimitz Class aircraft carriers and even the French Navy's Charles De Gaulle. But as you indicated, hypothetical scenarios. But the capability does exist.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

ldev wrote:
KSingh wrote:Firstly we have NO idea about the solution(s) Dassualt has offered to be compatible with Vikrant, ............
My bad. According to IDRW LINK
Dassault's solution was NOT a detachable wing, but removal of the wingtip missile rails every time the plane had to use the elevator. The other factor favoring Boeing, according to IDRW is that the TEDBF will use GE-414 engines (initially??) and hence commonality with the GE-414 engines with the Super Hornet....a reduction in spares since only one engine type is onboard. And lastly, price, as with with a low production run to date of only 46 examples of the Dassault Marine worldwide, the price is higher than the Rafale F3R acquired by the IAF.
Commonality in engine for TEDBF and SH is definitely a plus but everything else is not really in SH’s favour. Rafale-M is something like 95% in common with the Rafale B/C so it’s not 46 but 250++ (with nearly 100 on order)

Even if the unit cost is marginally higher, add on much much higher fixed costs for SH over Rafale and there’s not much chance Boeing have a cheaper package. French are just much better integrated in India than US is and it only seems to be deepening
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Pratyush »

Thakur_B wrote:
Someone at MoD must be sacked for not sending the Koreans an RFP for MRCA for they have sent it to everyone under the sun.
And the Chinese :((
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ldev »

KSingh wrote:Commonality in engine for TEDBF and SH is definitely a plus but everything else is not really in SH’s favour. Rafale-M is something like 95% in common with the Rafale B/C so it’s not 46 but 250++ (with nearly 100 on order)
Only Dassault and operators will know the true degree of commonality. According to Dassault, as of December 31, 2021, a total of 239 Rafale fighters have been delivered since production began of which 48 are carrier based Rafales.
KSingh wrote: French are just much better integrated in India than US is and it only seems to be deepening
Given the not yet settled dispute between France and Germany over work share and IP rights for the in development FCAS project, I think that France is looking at hedging it's bets for funding that project. One of the reports is that France is looking at India providing some of the development funding for FCAS, supposedly on the engine side, with India getting :| engine TOT....(that holy grail of TOT) which India is always after. In this case it will be TOT for the AMCA engines which will succeed the GE-414 in later versions of the AMCA. With Germany, the French position on FCAS has been that Dassault will be the sole lead contractor as opposed to a JV between Dassault representing France and Airbus representing Germany. Also the French position has been that all critical work will be done at French facilities and German technicians will travel to work in French facilities and France will retain IP rights for the developed product. Germany has balked at this and I do not know how close to resolution this dispute is. But if reports about France trying to rope in Indian funding for the FCAS engine are correct, it means that they are developing a fall back funding option with India in case there is no compromise with Germany. There was talk of them trying to rope in the UAE as well for funding but that appears to have fallen through. The big question if of course what will be the level of "TOT" that India gets in return. Will it be such that it will enable India to iteratively develop other engines on it's own. Or will be just transfer of manufacturing technology like with the Russians and the SU-30's Al-31 engines and a dead end in terms of further development.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

ldev wrote:
KSingh wrote:Commonality in engine for TEDBF and SH is definitely a plus but everything else is not really in SH’s favour. Rafale-M is something like 95% in common with the Rafale B/C so it’s not 46 but 250++ (with nearly 100 on order)
Only Dassault and operators will know the true degree of commonality. According to Dassault, as of December 31, 2021, a total of 239 Rafale fighters have been delivered since production began of which 48 are carrier based Rafales.
KSingh wrote: French are just much better integrated in India than US is and it only seems to be deepening
Given the not yet settled dispute between France and Germany over work share and IP rights for the in development FCAS project, I think that France is looking at hedging it's bets for funding that project. One of the reports is that France is looking at India providing some of the development funding for FCAS, supposedly on the engine side, with India getting :| engine TOT....(that holy grail of TOT) which India is always after. In this case it will be TOT for the AMCA engines which will succeed the GE-414 in later versions of the AMCA. With Germany, the French position on FCAS has been that Dassault will be the sole lead contractor as opposed to a JV between Dassault representing France and Airbus representing Germany. Also the French position has been that all critical work will be done at French facilities and German technicians will travel to work in French facilities and France will retain IP rights for the developed product. Germany has balked at this and I do not know how close to resolution this dispute is. But if reports about France trying to rope in Indian funding for the FCAS engine are correct, it means that they are developing a fall back funding option with India in case there is no compromise with Germany. There was talk of them trying to rope in the UAE as well for funding but that appears to have fallen through. The big question if of course what will be the level of "TOT" that India gets in return. Will it be such that it will enable India to iteratively develop other engines on it's own. Or will be just transfer of manufacturing technology like with the Russians and the SU-30's Al-31 engines and a dead end in terms of further development.
One has to accept a long time ago that there are no free lunches so all this talk by IAF of MRFA being the gateway to future technologies is utter utter nonsense and they know it.

I haven’t seen the reporting you’re speaking of, it makes sense although nothing I have read has mentioned a link between the 125KN engine JV india and France are in talks over and FCAS. Either way it’s really not an issue for me, india needs a >110KN engine for AMCA (maybe for LCA and TEDBF too down the road) so going the JV route that’ll give india workshare and a degree of IP is FAR preferable to simply buying off the shelf from a GE or PW. AMCA is expected in 100+ units, over the span of an aircraft it will go through 3-5 engine changes, that is 600-1000 engines. The F135 engine costs ~$20m per engine, these are eye watering sums over the course of the AMCA’s life and before you even factor in dropping that engine into other types in india.


So if Safran wants a few billion upfront that is MORE than a cost worth paying, I just hope the typical penny pinching and or ‘there’s no rush’ babu speed doesn’t cost a once in a generation opportunity again.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ldev »

^^^France is not ready to share IP with Germany which will put up tens of billions of Euros over the life of the FCAS project and a fellow NATO member. That is the root cause of the FCAS dispute. What makes you think that France will share any IP at all with India, for a couple of billion Euros for an uprated Snecma M88 derivative for the AMCA? License manufacturing yes, that they will agree to, even if they call it TOT, similar to the AL-31FP line where key raw materials continued to come in from Russia. But in reality genuinely transferring/selling IP is a bridge to far, no country will do it. The difference is that the US does not play these semantic games, as far as they are concerned, there is no TOT on engine technology, it is licence manufacturing, take it all leave it.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Khalsa »

Rakesh wrote:
KSingh wrote: On the 29K front; the more I think about it the more I’m certain it’s not feasible in the slightest, they will have to serve for the next 15 years easily from Vikky (maybe Vikrant also if/when MRCBF fails to deliver anything to IN). And these will be 15 hard years from carriers and at coastal bases, they are still relatively new and struggling deeply. Another 15+ years of battering won’t leave them in any position to be handed over to another force. This is before we factor in inevitable airframe losses
Khalsa-ji, the MiG-29K will not go to the IAF. It will stay with the IN and will continue to serve on the Vikramaditya.

The new airwing (Rafale-M or F-18SH) will serve on the Vikrant. The MiG-29K/KUB fleet will be retired in the early 2030s.

KSingh is correct.
Admiral sir... I am going to show my complete 101 when I ask this.
Both the F-18 and Rafale can operate off Vikramaditya ?

Yes yes I know what you are saying. Bloody Khalsa ... have you not been following the silly counter questioning on the Naval thread.
I have and I know the answer for Vikrant but just want to know if F-18 fits in the Vikramaditya or not saar.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Khalsa wrote:Admiral sir... I am going to show my complete 101 when I ask this.
Both the F-18 and Rafale can operate off Vikramaditya ?

Yes yes I know what you are saying. Bloody Khalsa ... have you not been following the silly counter questioning on the Naval thread.
I have and I know the answer for Vikrant but just want to know if F-18 fits in the Vikramaditya or not saar.
INS Vikramaditya will reportedly be out of commission for the next couple of months (at least) due to the recent fire on-board.

Boeing claims that the F-18 can fit on INS Vikramaditya, but that is a moot point. Her fleet availability is very poor. So the IN realistically will have only one aircraft carrier - the Vikrant - which will be commissioned next month (Aug 15). But it will take another one year before she can be operationally deployed. A lot more qualifications need to be done.

The Vikrant will operate the MiG-29K/KUB till the first batch of the future MRCBF (either the Rafale M or the F-18SH) arrive. It is best to not factor INS Vikramaditya into any calculation. She just completed a refit, caught fire (during a refit trial) and is now back in port (out of operational use) for the next little while.

It is Vikrant all the way. She will hold the fort, till the next aircraft carrier arrives. This mess could have been avoided if the IN just focused on a follow-on vessel to the Vikrant. They had ample time in the previous decade to lay the keel. But their stubborn insistence on a CATOBAR vessel has now resulted in just one viable aircraft carrier.

The MoD refused to release the funds for the CATOBAR vessel, but the IN kept on insisting. They are still at it! :) This tamasha has been going on for a good 7+ years. Persistence in the face of constant rejection.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by SRajesh »

^^Rakeshji
If the RM is not forceful enough to control the The Three Chiefs(given no CDS), then shouldn't PM intervene (bash some heads if need be)
Stop all the tamasha's going around
Does the country have to bear the brunt of spill over effects of: The Three Tops/Malai Express/Phoren Maal/Brochuritis.
If things spill past December, the government wont sign anything given the election year and things have to wait until 2024/25??
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Rsatchi wrote:^^Rakeshji
If the RM is not forceful enough to control the The Three Chiefs (given no CDS), then shouldn't PM intervene (bash some heads if need be)
Stop all the tamasha's going around
Does the country have to bear the brunt of spill over effects of: The Three Tops/Malai Express/Phoren Maal/Brochuritis.
If things spill past December, the government wont sign anything given the election year and things have to wait until 2024/25??
Saar, no -ji for me please.

The PMO needs to step in, but then is managing the Ministry of Defence the only job that the PMO has?

South Block is filled with the tentacles of the import lobby. Many have agendas to push and strings to pull. Defence is a Ministry in which a ridiculous sum of unaccounted money can be made under the table, as long as one is careful to watch their back. The guys who are in this business have been doing it for decades. They are old hands and are experts in the field. And it goes across the spectrum - politicians, the babus, defence reporters, uniformed personnel, the peon and probably even the chaiwallah who serves the tea at South Block.

It is a miracle how India manages to purchase what it does. When one deal is sanctioned, the ones who are in the opposite import lobby will work to actively kill the deal. See the brouhaha over the 36 Rafale deal. How did N Ram from the newspaper The Hindu, manage to get his hands on a cropped MoD report, with notes from the DG-Air and others in the MoD? It was used to great effect by Rahul Gandhi, till the MoD published the entire page with then Raksha Mantri Manohar Parrikar's note. During the MMRCA 1.0 episode, a hard file copy was lying on a roadside in New Delhi. It does not take a genius to figure out who is leaking this info. Sometimes the information in these files are extremely sensitive and is detrimental to the security of the nation, when leaked.

Many of the RMs are clueless in matters of national security. They are politicians, not soldiers. You honestly cannot expect them to. In the past, in Congress-led governments, they were forced to toe the supreme leader. VP Singh pushed back on that bokwas and thus we had the Bofors Scandal. George Fernandes tried his level best, but his utopia got the better of him and he was eventually swallowed up by the big blue whale (the import lobby) in the Ministry of Defence. When you are naïve like George, the import lobby can smell (like hyenas) that fear and then they will eat you alive i.e. Tehelka Scandal. That scandal gave George cold feet over the 126 Mirage 2000-5 deal and thus we had MMRCA 1.0, Single Engine Fighter contest and now the MRFA contest.

The only guy who surfed his way through the MoD was AK Antony (Mr Teflon). Nothing stuck on him, because he refused to sanction anything of consequence or significance. His USP was I-am-Mr-Honest, but that honesty of his was an unmitigated disaster for which India is still paying the price. Antony was famous for only guarding the furniture at South Block. The only effective Raksha Mantri we had (in recent times) was Manohar Parrikar, for which we today have the HTT-40 program, the Tejas Mk1A program, etc. But then he went back to Goa at the first opportunity of becoming the CM there. But then he unfortunately died soon after.

India needs a Manohar Parrikar, with the erudition of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw (Mr No Nonsense) and the wily General VK Singh (Mr Take No Prisoners), as he is a former Para Cdo. We saw glimpses of that in General Bipin Rawat, but then he too died an untimely death. India needs an individual with brass balls to survive and navigate the hallowed halls of the MoD as Raksha Mantri. Rajnath Singh is a capable administrator, but I think he is playing it safe. General Elections are coming up in 2024 and 2023 is crucial. The one thing that can sink a government is the hint of scandal and the MoD is ripe to foster that environment.

But don't get despondent. India will come out of this. Not easy, but someone has to do it. Kudos to this present Govt to have made the progress it has. But a lot more needs to be done. The first step is appointing the next CDS. I am at a loss of words as to the reason for the delay. But see how the opposition in India is largely silent over this issue of delay. Because the CDS is detrimental to their own political well being. See how deep the tentacles are and how deep the rot is.

P.S. I know this will never pass muster in any Government in India, but sticking my neck out and making this suggestion ---> next CDS should also be the (Additional or Assistant) Defence Minister. So have a civilian rubber stamp for oversight, but have the CDS make all the important decisions in matters of procurement. To avoid the political storm that will come, the Govt is not required to give the CDS the title, but the CDS needs the powers of a Defence Minister. The main focus should be on Self Reliance. The armed forces are long overdue to show some ownership and take responsibility. They need to shed the behaviour of "I-am-only-the-end-user". The services need to treat DRDO, ADA, HAL and other PSUs as an extension of themselves and not as some independent government entity.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

Khalsa wrote:
Rakesh wrote: Khalsa-ji, the MiG-29K will not go to the IAF. It will stay with the IN and will continue to serve on the Vikramaditya.

The new airwing (Rafale-M or F-18SH) will serve on the Vikrant. The MiG-29K/KUB fleet will be retired in the early 2030s.

KSingh is correct.
Admiral sir... I am going to show my complete 101 when I ask this.
Both the F-18 and Rafale can operate off Vikramaditya ?

Yes yes I know what you are saying. Bloody Khalsa ... have you not been following the silly counter questioning on the Naval thread.
I have and I know the answer for Vikrant but just want to know if F-18 fits in the Vikramaditya or not saar.
I don’t care what Boeing’s briefings to the media say, there’s no way the SH can fit in the lifts of the Vikaramaditya. The SH only just fits on the Vikrants lifts with the use of a specially designed jig. The Vikaramaditya’s deck lifts likely limit the SH by length and width


https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... 3RdwpE5wkQ
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:P.S. I know this will never pass muster in any Government in India, but sticking my neck out and making this suggestion ---> next CDS should also be the (Additional or Assistant) Defence Minister. So have a civilian rubber stamp for oversight, but have the CDS make all the important decisions in matters of procurement. To avoid the political storm that will come, the Govt is not required to give the CDS the title, but the CDS needs the powers of a Defence Minister. The main focus should be on Self Reliance. The armed forces are long overdue to show some ownership and take responsibility. They need to shed the behaviour of "I-am-only-the-end-user". The services need to treat DRDO, ADA, HAL and other PSUs as an extension of themselves and not as some independent government entity.
Why not VKS? Seems the right man for the job given his experience in and out of uniform?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by SRajesh »

Can he be appointed as CDS after such a long gap in military service??
And more importantly will the services accept Gen VKS's appointment??
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Kakkaji »

Rsatchi wrote:Can he be appointed as CDS after such a long gap in military service??
And more importantly will the services accept Gen VKS's appointment??
At least he should be appointed Minister of State in the Defence Ministry right away. He has been wasted in the Ministries he has been appointed to for the last eight years.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/FighterPiloting/sta ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> South African Air Force Gripen-C/Ds have been grounded for last 7 months due to shortage of funds to maintain these aircraft. An indicator how expensive these aircraft are to operate & maintain. Tejas will probably cost a fraction of it, for op-maintenance.

SAAF Gripens grounded
https://aviationnews.eu/news/2021/12/sa ... -grounded/
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/FighterPiloting/sta ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> South African Air Force Gripen-C/Ds have been grounded for last 7 months due to shortage of funds to maintain these aircraft. An indicator how expensive these aircraft are to operate & maintain. Tejas will probably cost a fraction of it, for op-maintenance.

SAAF Gripens grounded
https://aviationnews.eu/news/2021/12/sa ... -grounded/
Why would we assume the LCA is cheaper? It uses the same engine and Gripen is made in far larger numbers so economies of scale would assume otherwise.

This is more to do with the shoestring budgets these part time AFs are run on as they don’t really have a credible aerial threat to be worried about.

+ more indication that the PLAAF forcing IAF to use up life of their 2 engine birds is not only taking out service life but also costing mammoth OPEX hence a further indication they need capable single engine (indigenous) fighters by the 100s yet here we are…..
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:Selected OEM for multi-role fighter aircraft programme will have to ensure tech transfer: Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 491639.cms
27 June 2022
This is to make it palatable to the MoD for this import.
So far how much offset has Rafale provided?
The contract was for 50% of the value of 36 jets deal.
Early on it was 33%.
IAF will say it's MoD problem. We did a technical selection!

Anyway, when are these aircraft supposed to be inducted?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:Challenging Rafale – IAF’s “Top Officials” Shortlist Only Aircraft That Can Outflank Dassault Jets To Win India’s MRFA Deal
https://eurasiantimes.com/challenging-r ... raft-mrfa/
27 June 2022
A question arises about which type of fighter jet the Indian Air Force requires, whether a multi-role fighter-bomber or an air-superiority fighter. The answer to this question is that India wants to acquire 114 medium-sized multi-role fighters under the MMRCA 2.0, which typically eliminates F-15EX and Su-35 fighter jets, both of which are air-superiority fighters. Now, four fighters remain in contention, Rafale, Gripen, F-21, and Eurofighter.

Air Vice Marshal Suryakant Chafekar (Retd) opined that the best choice for India is Rafale as the country has undergone an in-depth selection process and already has 36 Rafale jets. Maintaining the same type of jets in inventory is better for maintenance and spares. This typically rules out Eurofighter Typhoons. In my earlier analysis, we ruled out Saab Gripens. Despite being fantastic jets, there is no place for them in the Indian Air force as the country is acquiring indigenous LCA Tejas which are similar (even better in many aspects) to Gripens.

The Indian Air Force has been offered a new fighter aircraft, the F21, by Lockheed Martin. The F21’s development place stands in the form of a new Indian plant built by the local Tata Advanced Systems in conjunction with Lockheed Martin. These are the contenders for the deal led by Dassault Rafale, but things could go the other way very quickly if India is offered participation in the F- 35 program by the United States.

However, the US has never offered F-35s to India. An ex-fighter pilot, who wished to remain anonymous, told The EurAsian Times that India shouldn’t pick the former if given a choice between F-21 and F-35. “The F-21 and F-35 are two different generations and incomparable. The F-21 is an upgrade of the F-16. India should not opt for a glorified F-16 by another name. We shot one down from a MiG-21 :lol: ,” he noted.

Lt Colonet JS Sodhi (Retd) told The EurAsian Times that the US had not offered its F-35 fighter jets to India. He added, “However, given the aggressive stance being taken by China in expanding its footprints in the Indo-Pacific region lately and the applause India got in the recently concluded Quad summit in Tokyo on May 24, the US, you never know, might change its decision.

Anil Khosla, Former Vice Chief, IAF, told The EurAsian Times, "Why will any country part (on being asked about F-35) with its latest technology and if they do, there has to be a hidden agenda – maybe join the western camp. Going by history and past record – would it be prudent to rely on one camp? India could go for it if offered at an affordable cost, with no strings attached and considerable transfer of technology, Khosla said. Despite criticism, the final battle could be between F-21 and Rafale given that the US is unlikely to share its F-35 technology with India. Dassault should be the clear winner, unless the US manages to pull another trick from its bag, as it did in the case of Australia with the AUKUS deal.
and

viewtopic.php?p=2555150#p2555150
the first part or phase of MRFA will involve the procurement of 54 foreign jets under the Buy Global (Manufacture in India) category of the Defence Acquisition Procedure (DAP), with the contract being awarded to a foreign OEM. Of these, 18 will be procured in a flyaway condition from the OEM while 36 will be manufactured in India by a local partner selected by the OEM. This partner will be from the private sector.

The IAF is pushing for an early Acceptance of Necessity (AON) for Phase-I from the Defence Acquisition Council, and aims at issuing an RFP by the end of 2022.

Part-II of MRFA is not yet a programme but a concept, :mrgreen: sources disclosed. It involves procurement of 60 jets from the Indian production partner selected by the OEM for Part-I. The Part-II procurement model will be Buy Indian, with the Indian production agency being the prime for the issuance of contract.

“Part-II is a concept which may translate into a programme after seven-or-eight years,” official sources said, acknowledging the uncertainty and ambiguity which such a time lag could impose on the project.

The IAF has bounced the revised plan off global OEMs interested in the acquisition. Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the US, Dassault of France, the Eurofighter consortium of Europe, Saab of Sweden and Sukhoi and MiG of Russia are in the IAF’s selection pool which involves eight fighter aircraft types.

OEMs which BW Businessworld spoke with have taken a dim view. “There’s no certainty of Phase-II. Which means that costs of setting up an assembly line in India will have to be amortized over just 54 aircraft (instead of 114), only 36 of which will be manufactured in India. This will push up costs significantly and make the MRFA very expensive for India,” said a senior executive of an OEM. “Business assurance is only from Phase-I, and we need to rework our business case for 54 fighters instead of 114,” he elaborated.

The other significant shift in the MRFA programme is the rejection of the Strategic Partnership (SP) Model by the IAF. “This is mainly on account of the unsatisfactory experience in the abortive Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) programme, and the Project 75 (I) submarine project under the SP Model,” official sources explained. :rotfl:

NUH crashed after prolonged indecision by the Government on whether or not to allow the public sector in a model intended to create an alternate private sector complex in end-to-end manufacturing of a military platform. In Project 75(I), deep reservations were expressed by OEMs on fulfilling deep Transfer of Technology requirements to the Indian Strategic Partner and their relegation as junior associates in the programme.
NUH crashed as it was a 'guided' single vendor scam by the procurement folks to ensure Russian helicopters.
Even retired admirals pitched for it by demanding blade folding into small hangers!

Sorry for not having read this report earlier.
The IAF 114 MRFA plan is to buy this F-21 somehow.
All the pieces are here: Already designed plane F-21, 18 flyaway planes rotting in the Arizona desert, the rest of the 54 assembled by the local vendor (hint TASL), and then 60 ordered from the local vendor.
MoD put kabash with the need to consider twin engines which allows already selected Rafale.


Some things to understand adding a new plane in quantity adds 10K crores to the annual budget for maintaining a separate line for the aircraft. Who will pay for this?


If you look at the timeline the planes will be inducted by 2030 unless the 18 sitting in Arizona get sent Fed EX.
So MRFA is a revised F-16.
Last edited by ramana on 05 Sep 2022 08:49, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited by ramana.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by BenG »

I feel there is a lack of contingency planning and forethought when acquiring combat aircraft. They let Su30 production line go idle to make space for 126 mmrca. When 126 mmrca was abandoned and 36 Rafales order was made, a 30 Su-30 order could have been done to keep the production line churning till Tejas mk2 or MRFA line was set up. They are wasting existing production capacity. A new production line will cost a lot of money and 2-3 years of time atleast. At the current flyaway cost of Rafale, the overhead costs of setting up a new production line will make any local manufacture(60% value) like the original mmrca plan a non-starter. If we pursue 114 MRFA disregarding cost and industrial participation with ACM mindset, going by previous MMRCA time-line (Aug2007 to Apr2011), the aircraft will be selected by 2027. Production of 114 MRCA is not going to start before 2030. Tejas mk2 according to Ajay Shukla will start production by 2030 which essentially renders MRFA mute.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Barath »

The Su 30 production line was possibly a decade or two behind the state of the art - witness the comments in wikileaks. Ideally, india would have had the su 30 upgrade technically qualified and used that line as an upgrade line instead ..

The MMRCA 2.0 after all was uncertain..

In any case manufacturing neefs to be upgraded
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Sorry for not having read this report earlier.
The IAF 114 MRFA plan is to buy this F-21 somehow.
All the pieces are here: Already designed plane F-21, 18 flyaway planes rotting in the Arizona desert, the rest of the 54 assembled by the local vendor (hint TASL), and then 60 ordered from the local vendor.
MoD put kabash with the need to consider twin engines which allows already selected Rafale.

Some things to understand adding a new plane in quantity adds 10K crores to the annual budget for maintaining a separate line for the aircraft. Who will pay for this?

If you look at the timeline the planes will be inducted by 2030 unless the 18 sitting in Arizona get sent Fed EX.
So MRFA is a revised F-16.
Ramana-ji, which eighteen F-16s are sitting where in an Arizona desert? Are you referring to the 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group at Davis-Monthan AFB? With the tens of billions being spent on this contract, the MoD will be unlikely to take used or in-storage airframes as part of the 114 MRFA contract. If LM does win the contract, it will have to be 18 brand new, fly away airframes. Secondly, no contestant in the MRFA competition will be able to address the squadron shortage and that includes the American contestants. The multiple variables at play will just not permit the IAF to absorb a large number of MRFAs in a single year.

Thirdly, what ever aircraft selected in the MRFA contestwill have to beat the Rafale and not on cost alone. The technical parameters of the competitors would have to outshine the Rafale, not just match it or be marginally better. No one else - Gripen E, MiG-35, F-21, Eurofighter Typhoon or F-18SH - is a game changer over the Rafale F3R(I). The only contestant that foots that bill is the F-15EX, but the Eagle II will be exorbitantly expensive to acquire and maintain.

It does not make any financial sense to purchase another fighter that matches or is just barely better than the Rafale F3R(I) in some areas. But I will state the obvious --> Inexplainable procurement policies are the hallmark and cornerstone of India's defence acquisitions. So it is not out of the realm of possibility that such an acquisition could occur. The famous example of that is the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 purchases in the 1980s.

IMVHO, the only way the Americans can win the MRFA contest is by offering the F-35. On cost and capability, she is ahead of the Rafale. But the fancy cornish hen will not arrive due to the S-400, unless LM has figured out a workaround to have both platforms be operated by one nation.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ramana »

Biden announced $450M sustainment for Paki F-16s.
Very much needed for flood relief.


This means the end of F-21 for MRFA.

Ab MRFA ka khya hoa! Khya hoga!
In Mughal-e-Azam refrain!
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ramana »

If I was in PMO even F-18s.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by kit »

ramana wrote:Biden announced $450M sustainment for Paki F-16s.
Very much needed for flood relief.
Is there a link for this.

I was wondering at what the quid pro quo for the pakis would be for "sustaining" uke.war effort

Paki deep state kicking out IK after Russia visit makes sense as well.

As usual geopolitics is key.

F18s will not happen
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

As predicted, the MMRCA/MRFA contest is slowly transitioning to 5th generation platforms. Get ready for Su-57, Su-75, F-35, KF-21, etc to join the contest. Let the circus continue :lol:

Too late and too expensive for any 4th generation platforms to join now, apart from the Rafale F4 which is a 4.5+ generation aircraft. Get two more Rafale squadrons for the IAF and end this tamasha once in for all.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... bha6_wNGUQ ---> IAF is considering 4.5 or 5th gen combat aircraft under MRFA - IAF Chief
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by RajaRudra »

Rakesh wrote:As predicted, the MMRCA/MRFA contest is slowly transitioning to 5th generation platforms. Get ready for Su-57, Su-75, F-35, KF-21, etc to join the contest. Let the circus continue :lol:

Too late and too expensive for any 4th generation platforms to join now, apart from the Rafale F4 which is a 4.5+ generation aircraft. Get two more Rafale squadrons for the IAF and end this tamasha once in for all.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... bha6_wNGUQ ---> IAF is considering 4.5 or 5th gen combat aircraft under MRFA - IAF Chief
We will be having the brochures of all available system and possibly the selection test results of all possible (high, low, sea level, night, day, evening, hot and high, cool and low, etc.) Now, after getting all possible numbers, imagining the RFQ that is going to come out of IAF to HAL/ADA for their next 5th gen airplane :D
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Vips »

So new winter/summer trials for all the fresh entrants. Imagine the number of new bureaucrats that can be trained in the fine art of reading fancy brochures and developing pot-bellies by eating all those free samosa's. :)
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:As predicted, the MMRCA/MRFA contest is slowly transitioning to 5th generation platforms. Get ready for Su-57, Su-75, F-35, KF-21, etc to join the contest. Let the circus continue :lol:

Too late and too expensive for any 4th generation platforms to join now, apart from the Rafale F4 which is a 4.5+ generation aircraft. Get two more Rafale squadrons for the IAF and end this tamasha once in for all.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... bha6_wNGUQ ---> IAF is considering 4.5 or 5th gen combat aircraft under MRFA - IAF Chief
I am getting more and more concerned with the Indian military’s leadership. They seem overtly compromised now, no matter what changes on the fiscal or geopolitical front they cling to these mega import deals that are almost certainly never going to frutify. I genuinely hope IB and R&AW are keeping an eye on these guys and making sure these efforts are being pursued purely out of naivety and incompetence

As it stands IAF is position MRFA to kill off/severely dent both LCA MK.2 and now AMCA too

As always the ultimate shame rests with GoI and ultimately PMO that lets this farce play out whilst simultaneously screaming pit self reliance.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:As predicted, the MMRCA/MRFA contest is slowly transitioning to 5th generation platforms. Get ready for Su-57, Su-75, F-35, KF-21, etc to join the contest. Let the circus continue :lol:

Too late and too expensive for any 4th generation platforms to join now, apart from the Rafale F4 which is a 4.5+ generation aircraft. Get two more Rafale squadrons for the IAF and end this tamasha once in for all.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... bha6_wNGUQ ---> IAF is considering 4.5 or 5th gen combat aircraft under MRFA - IAF Chief
rather it is the fine art of keeping geopolitical powers engaged with India. Let the games begin :mrgreen:
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Pratyush »

Nah, this is going to be the F35 at the expense of the AMCA. As the jazia payment to Khan.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

kit wrote:
Rakesh wrote:As predicted, the MMRCA/MRFA contest is slowly transitioning to 5th generation platforms. Get ready for Su-57, Su-75, F-35, KF-21, etc to join the contest. Let the circus continue :lol:

Too late and too expensive for any 4th generation platforms to join now, apart from the Rafale F4 which is a 4.5+ generation aircraft. Get two more Rafale squadrons for the IAF and end this tamasha once in for all.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... bha6_wNGUQ ---> IAF is considering 4.5 or 5th gen combat aircraft under MRFA - IAF Chief
rather it is the fine art of keeping geopolitical powers engaged with India. Let the games begin :mrgreen:
I’ve seen this mentioned a lot but it doesn’t make sense anymore. Maybe in the case of Russia or maybe 40 years ago but today bilateral trade between india and the US is >$150USD annually with the expectation it will be almost $1 trillion within 15 years . A 20-30bn deal (once) is a drop in the bucket

More likely a lot of lobbyists in Delhi are offering nice ‘golden parachutes’
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

If we do end up with the F-35, it will be a FACO (Final Assembly & Check Out) line...just like in Japan (https://www.f35.com/f35/global-enterprise/japan.html) and Italy (https://www.f35.com/f35/global-enterprise/italy.html)

Our MoD will call it ToT, but there will be no ToT. I wonder how they are going to circumvent the S-400 platform.

F-35 will spell doom for our AMCA program. Influential American Senators in the Foreign Relations Committee dislike Atmanirbhar Bharat.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by kit »

lets not be so pessimistic :) ..now who does not like chai biskoot sessions other than our babus with an occasional foreign junket all stretched out to kingdom come :rotfl:
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

kit wrote:lets not be so pessimistic :) ..now who does not like chai biskoot sessions other than our babus with an occasional foreign junket all stretched out to kingdom come :rotfl:
That’s all well and good but the issue is the IAF is factoring in the 6 squadrons of MRFA into their 2030+ force so either

1) there will be an even larger squadron shortfall come 2035 (they say with 6 MRFA SQNs they’ll get to ~35 SQNs vs 42 sanctioned strength)

2) for every MRFA they are not considering an LCA MK.2/AMCA

Their constant ‘we are shopping’ approach has real world consequences and sooner or later this will catch up to them (~200 jets are retiring by the mid 2030s and all they have in order is 83 MK1A but they haven’t even plugged the gaps from the MIG 21/23/27 retirements of the last decade).
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:If we do end up with the F-35, it will be a FACO (Final Assembly & Check Out) line...just like in Japan (https://www.f35.com/f35/global-enterprise/japan.html) and Italy (https://www.f35.com/f35/global-enterprise/italy.html)

Our MoD will call it ToT, but there will be no ToT. I wonder how they are going to circumvent the S-400 platform.

F-35 will spell doom for our AMCA program. Influential American Senators in the Foreign Relations Committee dislike Atmanirbhar Bharat.
Good luck getting that done in india. MMRCA was a total nightmare to negotiate and never worked out given complex workshare commitments. Now you want the US to give their contemporary systems to a non-NATO partner with S400 and that too to assemble in India? Just to be in a position to receive that offer will take 10+ years of negotiations

Then add on Indian babudom- it took 8 years just to finalise the C295 deal, this isn’t cutting edge offensive platforms.


I simply don’t think india can ever traverse something as complicated as a MRFA/F35 buy, the system isn’t dynamic enough for it
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cain Marko »

The f35 makes more sense for the navy since it has a naval version, and will make it more China centric, which should help sell it to Congress. Iaf should stick with more rafale.
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