MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rishirishi » 03 Oct 2019 03:22

Manu wrote:
rajsunder wrote:Picking Gripen for MARCA 2.0 is like tying oneself with a ton of weight and jumping in to marina trench and hoping to surive.


Besides we should deliver a message by stringing them along and eventually dumping them :)
The role the Swedes have played post Art. 370 was not a positive one, to put it lightly.


I think the LCA and its development must be kept separate from the IAF planning. The LCA should be Viewed as an extra benefit. Personally i do not think the LCA will meet the needs for the IAF in the next 10 years. Sorry just voicing my opinion.

Gripen or F16 is the perfect replacement for the Mig-21's. They can be procured in large numbers at reasonable cost, and do have the latest technologies.

The Sweeds are very good in making planes. They were the ones who made Draken, which was ahead of its times, they came up with the canards for the Viggen, etc. Perhaps IAF could even partner with Sweden for a new fighter.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 03 Oct 2019 03:33

Rishirishi wrote:I think the LCA and its development must be kept separate from the IAF planning. The LCA should be Viewed as an extra benefit. Personally i do not think the LCA will meet the needs for the IAF in the next 10 years. Sorry just voicing my opinion.

Procurement of expensive weapon systems is not (or at least should not) be carried out based on opinions unless there are facts attached to it. So why exactly is the LCA not a good replacement for the Mig-21? Facts please.

The Sweeds are very good in making planes. They were the ones who made Draken, which was ahead of its times, they came up with the canards for the Viggen, etc. Perhaps IAF could even partner with Sweden for a new fighter.

The Swedes are so good, they offer aircraft for sale 10 years before they achieve IOC. If only HAL/ADA was allowed to pull off such stunts :lol: . Please read the posts on the previous page about the Gripen E.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby V_Raman » 03 Oct 2019 03:34

If at all we get any fighters outside of Rafale - only F18 makes sense. Otherwise, just invest more in Rafale...

Commonality of engines with LCA
Applicability to the NAVY
In service with USA for a long time with many enhancement possibilities

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Oct 2019 10:34

I somehow feel Boeing is happy, LM feels which we have ordered only C-130J's is trying to wriggle in, afterall these guys had the influence to push Boieng out of both the F-22 and the F-35, they probably have a lot clout in the US government and are pushing for these deals.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nash » 04 Oct 2019 17:23

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1180080088542580736

Livefist
@livefist
The 7 bids in for India’s 114 multirole fighter contest. Acceptance of necessity paperwork to begin soon, says IAF chief Bhadauria. We’ll have a detailed piece up soon.


Ok, seems like this MMRCA drama about to start officially.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 04 Oct 2019 19:02

nachiket wrote:The Swedes are so good, they offer aircraft for sale 10 years before they achieve IOC. If only HAL/ADA was allowed to pull off such stunts :lol: . Please read the posts on the previous page about the Gripen E.


It is quite common to offer aircraft for sale, or for nations to come in as partners, well ahead of the aircraft becoming operational. Historically, some of the largest and most successful military hardware has been developed or delivered that way. Both Singapore and Israel joined the F-35 program as an SCP just two years after the program begun its Engineering and Development effort, or more than a decade before it declared IOC with the USMC.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby RKumar » 04 Oct 2019 20:09

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1180080088542580736

Livefist
@livefist
The 7 bids in for India’s 114 multirole fighter contest. Acceptance of necessity paperwork to begin soon, says IAF chief Bhadauria. We’ll have a detailed piece up soon.


We would like to buy 114 instead of 36 Rafales :rotfl:

But he should get the credit for clearing the path for AMCA and MK2 8)

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 04 Oct 2019 23:00

Read the title of the article below and think which are the only two aircraft currently in the MRCA competition that can provide anything of value to the AMCA? Answer ----> Rafale and F-18 Super Hornet. The title of the article also means F-35, Su-57 or anything else is also out.

IAF CLOSES DOORS FOR FOREIGN 5TH GENERATION FIGHTER, COMMITS ITSELF TO INDIAN AMCA
http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?id=89 ... ndian-AMCA

"AMCA will be given priority. We will give full support. No import (of a fifth generation fighter) has been planned in the foreseeable future. AMCA will take a lot of budgetary support..Technology and weapons are the underlying requirements," he elaborated. Russia, the US and Britain have pitched their Fifth and 'Sixth' generation fighters to India. The AMCA assertion fits in with the vision that all military platforms to be acquired after the conclusion of ongoing procurement will be designed, developed and produced in India.

Every bolded word above in the quote is worth its weight in gold. So Boeing and Dassault have to step up their game, because this is it. No more phoren fighters after this MRCA contest.

Rest of the MRCA contestants are there only for eye candy and to show the "appearance" of a process.

Out of the two (F-18 and Rafale), which one is joining the IAF on 08 Oct 2019?

The questions that remain now are this --->

*What tech is there on the F-18 that will entice the IAF over the Rafale?
*What game changing capability is there on the F-18 over the Rafale?
*What can the F-18 do better - in leaps and bounds - over the Rafale?

In the above article, the Chief also mentions that 36 additional Rafales are not in the procurement plan. So it will be 114 onlee.

So who is going to get the red rose? Boeing or Dassault?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby vishvak » 04 Oct 2019 23:07

In the above article, the Chief also mentions that 36 additional Rafales are not in the procurement plan.

Hopefully not shelved but plans frozen for want of funds alongwith FGFA/Su-50 plans in some way.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 04 Oct 2019 23:32

nachiket wrote:
The Sweeds are very good in making planes. They were the ones who made Draken, which was ahead of its times, they came up with the canards for the Viggen, etc. Perhaps IAF could even partner with Sweden for a new fighter.

The Swedes are so good, they offer aircraft for sale 10 years before they achieve IOC. If only HAL/ADA was allowed to pull off such stunts :lol: . Please read the posts on the previous page about the Gripen E.


It is very disingenuous to blame Saab.

Why blame them? They are a company that needs customers to sell their jets to. They're marketing their jet, they needed a launch customer and they offered it to the IAF.

If the IAF was okay with including them in the mix and even flight evaluating Gripen D while keeping the Gripen NG's future avionics fit in its matrix, then why blame the seller? They're in the job of selling jets for their shareholders, to make a profit, not for charity or India's security.

They didn't hold a gun to any IAF officers temple and force them to include them in the MRCA mix, or to evaluate their jet, did they? The IAF could have done what the Swiss did recently in 2019- which was to refuse to evaluate the Gripen E prototype saying that it didn't represent the full capabilities that needed to be evaluated. The IAF was ok with doing test flights on the Gripen D and taking Saab's future development roadmap into account, just like Brazil was.

Brazil ended up deciding to go with the offer and wait more than 36 months to get their first jet. Because it was the most affordable of the types on offer to them. It met their needs, so they chose it and in 2021 they'll get their jets. If the IAF had selected the Gripen E then the schedule might've been rushed a bit and we may have been getting IOC jets now. Who knows?

But the point I'm making is you and others that make foreign companies seem like devils trying to rob India of its money, need to stop this. It lowers the level of discussion on this forum to childish rants. If you want to blame someone, blame the GoI and the IAF, for accepting the offers to evaluate foreign imports and dragging it out for over a decade. Those companies ended up spending several millions of dollars on the MRCA competition and ended up with nothing to show for all the effort and time invested.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby souravB » 05 Oct 2019 00:27

Rakesh wrote:--snip--
Rest of the MRCA contestants are there only for eye candy and to show the "appearance" of a process.

Out of the two (F-18 and Rafale), which one is joining the IAF on 08 Oct 2019?

The questions that remain now are this --->

*What tech is there on the F-18 that will entice the IAF over the Rafale?
*What game changing capability is there on the F-18 over the Rafale?
*What can the F-18 do better - in leaps and bounds - over the Rafale?

In the above article, the Chief also mentions that 36 additional Rafales are not in the procurement plan. So it will be 114 onlee.

So who is going to get the red rose? Boeing or Dassault?

Admiral saab, the bolded line can be not any truer. Anyways Dassault will have a huge (un)fair advantage over Boeing since all the customer specific modifications have already been paid for and they can quote a lower price during the RFP stage. If IAF goes with Boeing it'll be only because Unkil has pushed some heavy buttons.
Also (I think)MP had said something like Vision 2025 where India will not import any major platform from foreign countries after 2025. So it is a continuation of gov policy.
IMO IAF should get as many Rafales as it can as soon as possible. And in lieu ask Dassault to setup a JV production plant with some Indian player ready for production of a 5th gen fighter platform. with all the bells and whistles of microMeter fault tolerance and stuff.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 05 Oct 2019 00:51

Fully agree sourav.

It will be Rafale F4 (on white paper) versus F-18 Super Hornet Block III.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 05 Oct 2019 01:44

sometimes it is advantageous to deal with unkil, like for ex: KAI-FX project had a scratchback with JSF35, and tech share on purchase for KF-X. Now the koreans are back on track for svayam-sevak infrastructure because backed off sighting security concern.. and hey, it only takes a jiffy! for that matter, even India is likely to do so to Erdogan on FSS project of $1.4b.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 05 Oct 2019 02:10

Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa (retd) Sir stated that the IAF is *NOT* interested in the F-35. Now that statement makes perfect sense.

The IAF is investing all their energies into the AMCA. Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhaduria just came out and said it. See below.

IAF CLOSES DOORS FOR FOREIGN 5TH GENERATION FIGHTER, COMMITS ITSELF TO INDIAN AMCA
http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?id=89 ... ndian-AMCA

"AMCA will be given priority. We will give full support. No import (of a fifth generation fighter) has been planned in the foreseeable future. AMCA will take a lot of budgetary support..Technology and weapons are the underlying requirements," he elaborated.

The big news and takeaway from the press conference is undoubtedly the AMCA. The MRCA is over to the sidelines.

A great day for the country, if you ask me. The Indian Air Force has just put her faith and her combat future into a fifth generation, stealth aircraft program which is still largely on the drawing board. But the real clincher is this ---> it is an Indian aircraft.

Would Air Chief Marshal Bhaduria Sir have made this statement if there was no Tejas TD, then Tejas PV, then Tejas LSP, then Tejas Mk1 and the planned Mk1A and Mk2? We all know how exacting the IAF is when it comes to choosing any aircraft.

What a beautiful turn around for the IAF. AFAIK, it has never happened before and that too for an Indian designed aircraft. What an excellent backdrop to kick off celebrations of the 87th anniversary of the Indian Air Force on this Oct 08th! Anyone who reads the above link will undoubtedly feel a sense of pride.

Vivek, if you are reading this ---> You asked me in the Tejas Mk1 thread....when will India learn to trust her own weapons? What more proof do you need Sir, than the above?

Tejas Tejasvi Namaham - Touch the Sky with Glory!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 05 Oct 2019 03:39

Just how incredible is that!? No foreign FGFA!! And full budgetary and political support plus services technical and domain expertise is exactly what the AMCA program needed for it to succeed.

Targeting a first flight by 2025 and then entry into service 6-7 years later is doable, with the right support. Plenty of new technologies will be needed, but the Tejas Mk2/ Medium Weight Fighter could seed some of these technologies while keeping scope of work a little more limited to allow for quick induction into service.

Plus a clear commitment to induct 200 Tejas Mk2/ MWF fighters in addition to 83 Mk1As. Plus the HTT-40 will be next BTA..

A red letter day for our indigenous Aerospace industry.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby kit » 05 Oct 2019 04:09

Is there someone who can comment on the official position on the MRCA 3 ?.. is there any change in parameters, ok it's 2 engined as well to start with and that would apparently include every fighter plane out there!

My questions would be
Why is this necessary granted we have the Tejas mark 1, 1a and MCA on the horizon. Even with a new purchase that fighter would take approximately that long to finally enter service with IAF !! ., so then its not just about filling numbers, what added benefit does this bring to the service and country ? .. are we looking at particular industrial offsets / benefits or a significant-tech collaboration with the private sector ? What kind of offsets does this entail, is it worth the trouble and investment in time and money ? or finally does this involve any political change of direction .. looking at the way LM is persisting with its F21 !!!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 05 Oct 2019 04:18

Kartik wrote:. Targeting a first flight by 2025 and then entry into service 6-7 years later is doable


If this is achieved this would make it the fastest development, and dev/ops testing 5th gen program in the world, taking roughly 60% the time compared to everyone else. A more realistic timeframe is 10-12 years for EMD and dev/ops testing once the tech demonstrators transition into a production representative prototype with full mission systems and capability .If the first AMCA squadron is operational by 2035, this would be a pretty well run program assuming that the first demonstrator flies by 2023 or so.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 05 Oct 2019 06:29

Rakesh wrote:Tejas Tejasvi Namaham - Touch the Sky with Glory!


tejas tejasvI bhavet!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Oct 2019 12:51

brar_w wrote:
Kartik wrote:. Targeting a first flight by 2025 and then entry into service 6-7 years later is doable


If this is achieved this would make it the fastest development, and dev/ops testing 5th gen program in the world, taking roughly 60% the time compared to everyone else. A more realistic timeframe is 10-12 years for EMD and dev/ops testing once the tech demonstrators transition into a production representative prototype with full mission systems and capability .If the first AMCA squadron is operational by 2035, this would be a pretty well run program assuming that the first demonstrator flies by 2023 or so.

The other 5 gen programs were developed at a time when engines produced less power, AeSA radars were unheard of, obogs was completely new, 4 gen aircraft had all metal bodies etc
Tejas will have many of the technologies which had been developed only for 5th gen aircraft. So our development time will be much shorter if Tejas and MWF achieve a high rate of production.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Austin » 05 Oct 2019 13:05

AMCA has not received FSED funding yet and from the time it gets till ioc will take care minimum 14-15 years assuming there is no technology hurdles faced.

Most countries that made 5 the gen ac had made and produced dozens of types and still they took that long time.

In many cases GOI takes a call and to induct more Rafale or FGFA or Mmmrca is their call , even S-400 decision was taken during MP era and was bolt from blue types there as also C17 and Su30 in 90etc

Mmmrca has yet to get AON but mine sweeper for IN has got AON since early 2011 and no decision has gone beyond that.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 05 Oct 2019 19:25

Aditya_V wrote:
brar_w wrote:
If this is achieved this would make it the fastest development, and dev/ops testing 5th gen program in the world, taking roughly 60% the time compared to everyone else. A more realistic timeframe is 10-12 years for EMD and dev/ops testing once the tech demonstrators transition into a production representative prototype with full mission systems and capability .If the first AMCA squadron is operational by 2035, this would be a pretty well run program assuming that the first demonstrator flies by 2023 or so.

The other 5 gen programs were developed at a time when engines produced less power, AeSA radars were unheard of, obogs was completely new, 4 gen aircraft had all metal bodies etc
Tejas will have many of the technologies which had been developed only for 5th gen aircraft. So our development time will be much shorter if Tejas and MWF achieve a high rate of production.



Image

If you read my post again, you will realize that I was not referring to technology development at all. The time frame I referred to is for EMD, developmental and operational testing i.e. the post Technology Maturation and Risk Reduction time frame (under the Orange line in the graphic above). For example, ATF entered its EMD phase in 1991, flew the first EMD configuration aircraft in 1997 which started the developmental test program. Configuration development, maturation of technology in support of things like AESA radar, setting up the GaAs industrial base etc. happened prior to start of EMD as is mandated by law (or else no Milestone B in the US). First LRIP batch was ordered in 2001, and was delivered in 2003 and went straight into Operational testing (Operational testers refused to use non LRIP aircraft for OT certification) soon after that. IOC for the initial block was granted in 2005 or more than 14.5 years after the program entered its EMD phase, 8 years after an EMD configure aircraft first flew, or more than 4 years after first Low Rate Initial Production batch was sanctioned. The EMD program followed an extensive TMRR phase where technologies you mentioned were de-risked and matured so that they could be integrated. In total, the developmental test program for the F-22 involved 9 aircraft, each specially fitted and tasked with testing and validating things like flying qualities, integrated avionics, low-observable measurements, and weapons integration and deployment. Together, these 9 aircraft flew about 2500 sorties and racked up nearly 5000 hours of flying over a 6-7 year period.

The flying 757 test bed too racked up some serious flight time as well in support of all the avionics testing and sensors. The team that worked on the aircraft program had just come off of a large peak in Low Observable funding having delivered on a couple of programs, and competed on a few others. They were not novices when it came to dealing with LO/VLO requirements, static or dynamic RCS testing, Internal Weapons Bay development, integration or testing as you may be implying just by given the timeframes involved. Still some new technology needed to be developed for dynamic RCS and IR signature testing given the F-22 was supersonic and flew at much higher altitudes compared to LO/VLO aircraft of the past. Things like giant multi-spectral IR signature measurement pods needed to be developed and strapped on F-15's so that the IR signature at various bands could be measured while the aircraft was supercruising. None of the existing stuff was capable of doing this in an A2A configuration. Similarly, multi-band Radar equipped aircraft are seen chasing US stealth aircraft for dynamic RCS measurement and validation and these were extensively used in support of flight test activities as well. All this take time even when your entire test range community and industrial base had delivered on the F-117 and B-2 programs (and numerous other smaller demonstrators)!

The F-35 program entered SDD in 2001, and the first SDD configuration example flew in 2006 which kick started the developmental test program which lasted > 9,000 flights spanning more than 17,000 hours and covering nearly 67,000 test points in support of developmental testing. IOT&E on the F-35 is nearly done (live tests are almost all done with M&S activities left) but the road from first production (LRIP) aircraft to IOC was about a decade as well. The F-35 team had the benefit of delivering the only other operational fifth generation fighter program in service at the time so in many ways this was a continuation and progression of the work they were doing since the late 1980s.

The Sukhoi Design bureau was selected as the lead developer of the PAK-FA in April of 2002, and from what we hear, the first serial production batch was sanctioned a little while ago and first serially produced Su-57 is expected to be delivered by late 2019, or about 17 years later.

Bottom line is everything from developing key enabling technologies (least of which revolves around Low Observables and integrated mission systems) to integrating them into LO airframes, test beds to running developmental and operational test programs that can take multiple of 4th generation fighter program test-points is HARD and has historically taken the rest of the world a pretty long time. No matter the time-frame, there will always be "FIRSTS" for the developers, and FIRSTS for the operators and testers. This is hard stuff and takes time to develop, master, test, discover, correct, test again, validate, certify and operationalize. None of the earlier examples that I cited were teams that wanted to do this slow, take it easy, or delay for the sake of delaying. And for none of those teams involves in the EMD or SDD phases was AESA radars "unheard off", or the only reference point was 4th generation aircraft. Some had already delivered and even opertionalized Low Observable, IWB carrying strike aircraft prior to begining their EMD work on the ATF.

Here is a reasonable time-line for the AMCA if funding is approved swiftly, pace of funding is never an issue and glitches and pitfalls are minimal -

Tech Demonstrator(s) First Flight and Flight Testing - 2022-2024
Final Configuration Production Quality Aircraft Deliveries - 2026-2027
Developmental and Operational Testing - 2025 - 2035
Initial Operational Capability - Post 2035

If the MOD/IAF/AdA can get a Flying Test Bed with all the planned sensors up in the air in the next couple of years, it would be great as it will allow them to get ahead of some of these things but for all intents and purposes, the AMCA in squadron service is a post 2035 proposition though I will be more than happy to be proven wrong.

If HAL can deliver an operational MWF squadron by 2026, and an operational AMCA squadron by 2036 they would have hit it out of the park IMHO!

But from my observation standpoint (having followed 5th gen fighter programs for over two decades) there are two universal themes that keep recurring - 1) That 5th gen aircraft, integrated mission systems, performance, IWB and LO shaping, and materials is some SERIOUS hard work and the complexity and technical hurdles have consumed a lot of time of everyone that has taken on the challenge and 2) The operator community and the civilian administrators put in charge of them have almost universally underestimated the magnitude of the challenge as has been reflected in their initial estimates for both cost and schedule. Again all well intentioned folks wanting to get everything right and on time. This stuff is just hard because you are inventing in many cases and iterating on the fly.
Last edited by brar_w on 06 Oct 2019 02:02, edited 11 times in total.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Suresh S » 05 Oct 2019 19:52

I can not say for sure but my gut feel is a long term arranged marriage is about to take place between France and India. 150-200 Rafales, bigger nuke reactor help, more subs, civilian nuke reactors, helicopters, help in AMCA, Tejas Mark 2, aircraft engines...long list. NaMo does not do things by half. USA could be the bone in the kebab. Let's see what happens. Very interesting times ahead. MY money is on Rafale.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby vishvak » 05 Oct 2019 20:20

No matter the time-frame, there will always be "FIRSTS" for

And costly in case of aircrafts which is why I don't get removing calibrated instruments well put there already in first few batches (especially but not much meaning later). Gaining armaments is nice but why the hurry in in-house developed aircraft.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 06 Oct 2019 02:04

souravB wrote:Admiral saab, the bolded line can be not any truer. Anyways Dassault will have a huge (un)fair advantage over Boeing since all the customer specific modifications have already been paid for and they can quote a lower price during the RFP stage. If IAF goes with Boeing it'll be only because Unkil has pushed some heavy buttons.

Also (I think)MP had said something like Vision 2025 where India will not import any major platform from foreign countries after 2025. So it is a continuation of gov policy.

IMO IAF should get as many Rafales as it can as soon as possible. And in lieu ask Dassault to setup a JV production plant with some Indian player ready for production of a 5th gen fighter platform. with all the bells and whistles of microMeter fault tolerance and stuff.

Suresh S wrote:I can not say for sure but my gut feel is a long term arranged marriage is about to take place between France and India. 150-200 Rafales, bigger nuke reactor help, more subs, civilian nuke reactors, helicopters, help in AMCA, Tejas Mark 2, aircraft engines...long list. NaMo does not do things by half. USA could be the bone in the kebab. Let's see what happens. Very interesting times ahead. MY money is on Rafale.

With regards to the text highlighted above in red - you guys are able to read between the lines! :)

And you are both bang on right about the US - they will be the bone in the kebab onlee! India is not going to bypass Amreeka and get all of the above. Unkil will not allow it. And Unkil matters. If Unkil loses MRCA contract, expect other contracts to be awarded to them - tankers, more helicopters, etc, etc. Consolation Prize!

One thing is certain - India is still following the age old non-alignment principle onlee. Same old play, but just playing the role a lot smarter. And much to the frustration of Unkil (and to the chagrin of the American apologists on BRF). Nothing has changed from pre-Modi India to now. There is no value in "blind" partnerships with any nation and that includes my near & dear philanthropic friends from La France! Vive La France! :mrgreen: If you do not play ball, we will go play ball with someone else! Past transactions are no indication of fealty to any nation. India must chart her own destiny.

But do not take my word for it. See what Indian Foreign Minister S Jaishankar says below. Every word he says is music to my ears :)

Kashmir''s intractable challenge had to be met: Jaishankar
https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscroll ... ar/1632657
02 October 2019

"In this different era, there will be convergence with many but congruence with none. Finding common points to engage with as many power centres will characterize diplomacy at its highest level. For this reason, India finds it perfectly natural to engage a Chinese leader at Wuhan, the Russian one at Sochi and then go on to do the ''2+2'' meeting of Foreign and Defence Ministers with the United States.

"At the G-20 in Buenos Aires last year, it engaged back to back, in fact this year as well, in two trilaterals: US-Japan-India as well as Russia-India-China. The country that fares the best is the one which has least problems with its peer group and the broadest acceptance beyond.

"For a number of reasons, the game has now become one of positioning and optimizing. The reality is that India either reaches out in as many directions as possible and maximizes its gains or takes a more defensive approach of avoiding engagement. This is not just about greater ambition; it is also about not living in yesterday. In this intensely competitive world, India''s goal should be to move closer towards the strategic sweet spot."

"Thus, even as we look at an era of more dispersed power and sharper competition, the way forward is more likely to be new forms of accommodation rather than pure transactions. While nations will naturally each strive to advance their particular interests, similarities and affinities will always remain a factor. So, while this is an exposition on changes in international affairs, I would emphasize that the direction is towards a new architecture rather than the absence of one."

Cain Marko
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Oct 2019 11:42

India is not going to bypass Amreeka and get all of the above. Unkil will not allow it. And Unkil matters. If Unkil loses MRCA contract, expect other contracts to be awarded to them - tankers, more helicopters, etc, etc. Consolation Prize!

Yes, I cannot imagine MRCA not going to Rafale (if at all such an MRCA acquisition actually happens, most likely they will buy another 36 and be done with it). The US will likely get 57 Shornet for the Naval bid + Sea Guardians, choppers, tankers ityadi. A small fortune to be sure - probably much bigger than the combined Rafale purchases of ~ $ 15 billion.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 06 Oct 2019 13:09

I'll hold off on the celebration till I see Modi led GOI actually fix the economy and also fund these programs heavily. Till then kudos to IAF "planning" but a long way from celebration yet.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 06 Oct 2019 13:42

Kartik wrote:
nachiket wrote:
The Swedes are so good, they offer aircraft for sale 10 years before they achieve IOC. If only HAL/ADA was allowed to pull off such stunts :lol: . Please read the posts on the previous page about the Gripen E.


It is very disingenuous to blame Saab.

Why blame them? They are a company that needs customers to sell their jets to. They're marketing their jet, they needed a launch customer and they offered it to the IAF.

If the IAF was okay with including them in the mix and even flight evaluating Gripen D while keeping the Gripen NG's future avionics fit in its matrix, then why blame the seller? They're in the job of selling jets for their shareholders, to make a profit, not for charity or India's security.


Thing is he is referring to the fact that SAAB is very very savvy at misleading marketing and often lay folks fall for it. They aren't very "doodh ka dhule" either. At trade fairs, they used to openly slag the Tejas even other MMRCA competitors claiming they were far far ahead, and later we'd see the reality of what they were up to. IIRC you were the one who busted them open and that led to some real sour bellyaching from some Swedes on several fora. :mrgreen:

I mean, its ok if they are in the MRCA and hard-selling, but some of their marketing is really dodgy.

But the point I'm making is you and others that make foreign companies seem like devils trying to rob India of its money, need to stop this. It lowers the level of discussion on this forum to childish rants.


Every vendor is out to do this TBH, one only wishes the decision makers wise up to this and hold them all accountable for their (mis)deeds. But we need their kit, or are already over dependent so we cant. You play hardball with Dassault over Rafale, then you'll find delays in Mirage spares, Scorpene kits. With Russia over T-90, Smerch ammo will be delayed...the list goes on. We really are vulnerable and many of these guys know it and play us like a fiddle, that too is true. We don't have the heft of a PRC or the US for instance in dealing with these guys because we are always in perennial import mode, and we even shoot ourselves in the foot by black-listing (and taking very little action against the local chaps who engaged in corruption), which makes us even more dependent on the handful of vendors who are available.

If you want to blame someone, blame the GoI and the IAF, for accepting the offers to evaluate foreign imports and dragging it out for over a decade. Those companies ended up spending several millions of dollars on the MRCA competition and ended up with nothing to show for all the effort and time invested.


Very true, but the max blame I think in this case deserves to go to the GOI for having dragged this out so long and then showing no resolve in taking or funding one decision. Right now, why can't we just add a few more Rafales and use the rest of the funds for upgrades, munitions, domestic programs - and perhaps a silver bullet force of a few F-35 (if its even possible post S-400). But for all this to happen, we need some consensus from GOI .. or even understanding of what we face vis a vis the PAF and PRC.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rsatchi » 06 Oct 2019 20:20

https://www.outlookindia.com/website/st ... ays/340067
What is this Patel guy smoking??? :eek:
Is he a commie or Libtard!!! :?:
According to his logic having a 'standing army' is useless. :((

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby darshhan » 06 Oct 2019 20:34

Rsatchi wrote:https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-india-wants-another-200-fighter-planes-but-do-they-really-win-wars-these-days/340067
What is this Patel guy smoking??? :eek:
Is he a commie or Libtard!!! :?:
According to his logic having a 'standing army' is useless. :((


Islamic actually. He is a peacefool. Don't be fooled by Patel surname.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rsatchi » 06 Oct 2019 20:45

darshhan wrote:
Rsatchi wrote:https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-india-wants-another-200-fighter-planes-but-do-they-really-win-wars-these-days/340067
What is this Patel guy smoking??? :eek:
Is he a commie or Libtard!!! :?:
According to his logic having a 'standing army' is useless. :((


Islamic actually. He is a peacefool. Don't be fooled by Patel surname.

Darshanji
Thanks
No wonder he is writing this crap!! :lol: :lol:
Maybe he thinks he is preparing grounds for the final 'fitna' and 'Gazawa-e-behind'!!! :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_Sharma » 06 Oct 2019 20:53

^Bekar Patel has is in shock ever since his amnesty office raided by IT. He is "Cruhadi"

CRUHADI = CRUSADER + JIHADI (Using common LEFTIST Platform)

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Oct 2019 01:56

Patels can be Muslim as well Parsi. And occasional yindoo too :wink:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kakarat » 16 Oct 2019 17:37

Found this on the internet

Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 16 Oct 2019 17:44

That is from the first contest. The IAF rejected it back then and will reject it again.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kakarat » 16 Oct 2019 17:56

Yes it was F-16 the & F-21 now
"The Ultimate 4th Generation Fighter" :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 16 Oct 2019 19:24

darshhan wrote:
Rsatchi wrote:https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-india-wants-another-200-fighter-planes-but-do-they-really-win-wars-these-days/340067
What is this Patel guy smoking??? :eek:
Is he a commie or Libtard!!! :?:
According to his logic having a 'standing army' is useless. :((


Islamic actually. He is a peacefool. Don't be fooled by Patel surname.


why are we discussing this trash..i saw this a week ago...didnt even consider posting it...he fools by both first and last name..his pen name is akar patel ..ahmed the middle name is conveniently hidden...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby titash » 16 Oct 2019 21:56

Rsatchi wrote:https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-india-wants-another-200-fighter-planes-but-do-they-really-win-wars-these-days/340067
What is this Patel guy smoking??? :eek:
Is he a commie or Libtard!!! :?:
According to his logic having a 'standing army' is useless. :((


Guys - you need to shed your Majoritarian Hindutva outlook, and go beyond literal interpretations.

Aakar is smoking some really really high grade stuff and is appraising us of the business opportunity. Invest in the good stuff not 200 fighter planes.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby naird » 18 Oct 2019 00:18

Listen to this Eurofighter podcast by a Eurofighter pilot ! . These guys are just too good, the conversations are really good. There is a Rafale podcast as well. By the way the pilot confirms what we all know - Eurofighter is great in A2A , but has a long way to go for A2S


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ashbhee » 18 Oct 2019 02:17

Rsatchi wrote:https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-india-wants-another-200-fighter-planes-but-do-they-really-win-wars-these-days/340067
What is this Patel guy smoking??? :eek:
Is he a commie or Libtard!!! :?:
According to his logic having a 'standing army' is useless. :((


He is the "Amnesty International India executive director ", go figure, LOL!
https://www.outlookindia.com/people/aakar-patel/7344

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 22 Oct 2019 21:52

Why is HAL on strike? We know that it is owed huge amojunts by the IAF. As the strike continues into day 9 with silence on the issue, the desi plans of indigenisation get rogered and the foreign OEMs must be celebrating as the LCA programme in particular will definitely sufer.


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