MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby GeorgeWelch » 27 Feb 2018 03:08

Rakesh wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:So, they opened it up to the plane that makes the most sense, the SH ;)

Your entire argument of affordability rests on the premise, that they will order a 100 birds as this MoD contest states. As the first and second contests clearly proved, 100+ birds could not be afforded by the Govt.


They can't be afforded when you ignore price and get the top of the line model. Whether it's possible with a more affordable model is TBD.

Rakesh wrote:It will be the Tejas that will fill the numbers in.


Again, why does this competition exist? Why not just order more Tejas?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2018 03:10

GeorgeWelch wrote:You keep looking at the high end but it's pretty clear that this competition is for the lower end.

The IAF may get the F-35, but it won't be through this competition. And they certainly won't get the Rafale through this competition, especially when they initially set it up to specifically exclude the Rafale.

Yeah, unfortunately the IAF chose the higher end in the first contest. They only got 36 birds out of it though.

Then they launched a SEF contest - for cheap fighters - which estimations turned out to be anything but.

If and when they get the F-35 and additional Rafales, this competition will also go the way of the dodo.

We have argued this back and forth now and in the past. It goes no where. Good luck with your choice!

See ya! :)

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby GeorgeWelch » 27 Feb 2018 03:13

Rakesh wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:I could very easily be wrong, but I'm just trying to read the tea leaves.

You read the tea leaves wrong on 27 April 2011, did'nt you? :lol:


How so?

Rakesh wrote:You also said that rejection of the F-16 - during the SEF contest - would be most unfortunate for India. Yet another misread.


How so?

Rakesh wrote:You have to look at capability.


The SH is plenty capable for India's current threat environment.

Rakesh wrote:The filler is the Tejas, nothing else.


Then why does this competition exist? It doesn't seem the IAF agrees with you.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 27 Feb 2018 03:57

GeorgeWelch wrote:The IAF may get the F-35, but it won't be through this competition. And they certainly won't get the Rafale through this competition, especially when they initially set it up to specifically exclude the Rafale.


On the contrary, everything now points to the Rafale being in the pole position. Soon to be in IAF service with all its attendant commonality benefits, the only question is whether Dassault/Reliance can offer a competitive proposal to build Rafales in India. If they can, this deal is their's to win. the fact that the Rafale has a naval variant is an added bonus given the IN's 57 MRCBF requirement. That too its land based variant is not a navy type with all the unnecessary weight it carries, unlike the SHornet.

now that the single engine constraint has been lifted, Gripen E, F-16 Block 70, Rafale, SHornet, MiG-35 and Typhoon will all have to submit business cases for how and why they should win the Make in India program. But before that, the IAF will have to shortlist them to maybe 3 or so contenders.

What the IAF wants is a G2G deal primarily to avoid another half decade being lost to evaluations, proposals and so on. AND a Govt. to Govt. deal doesn't mean it is off-the-shelf and this is a common misconception. A Govt. to Govt. deal simply implies that the IAF evaluates what type it wants, and then the Govt. will directly negotiate with the Govt. of the OEM's nation to finalize a deal. the L1/L2 tender lowest bidder stuff won't matter in a G2G deal.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby GeorgeWelch » 27 Feb 2018 04:23

Kartik wrote:On the contrary, everything now points to the Rafale being in the pole position.


If they just wanted more Rafale they would just cancel the competition altogether. The fact the competition is still going says they still want something besides Rafale.

Kartik wrote:AND a Govt. to Govt. deal doesn't mean it is off-the-shelf and this is a common misconception. A Govt. to Govt. deal simply implies that the IAF evaluates what type it wants, and then the Govt. will directly negotiate with the Govt. of the OEM's nation to finalize a deal. the L1/L2 tender lowest bidder stuff won't matter in a G2G deal.


I seem to be missing something. How can (for instance) the US government negotiate a deal to manufacture SH in India? Wouldn't that have to involve Boeing?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 27 Feb 2018 05:00

Another 10-15 years will go by (like MMRCA-1), before a decision is made. This is India after all with its famous 11-step procurement red-tape. Multiple governments will change hands and the budget won’t be there at the end. Always risky for politicians to sign the dotted line due to corruption allegations. Plenty of delay tactics/process in place for indecision. Nothing quick about it.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 27 Feb 2018 05:47

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Kartik wrote:On the contrary, everything now points to the Rafale being in the pole position.


If they just wanted more Rafale they would just cancel the competition altogether. The fact the competition is still going says they still want something besides Rafale.

You clearly do not understand Indian politics. With a national election in 2019, this Govt. didn't want any accusations of having done any wrongdoing in selecting a fighter and paying several billions of $ without a fair competition. That is what led to the demise of the SEF program, since it put a restriction on number of engines and eliminated most of hte other suppliers.

If you want to believe that they (whoever that is) wants more fighters besides the Rafale, then its your choice. the IAF dearly wants more Rafale, the SEF thing was a former Def Min's idea and the IAF just went with it. Now that SEF is canned, the IAF will try its best to get more Rafales.

GeorgeWelch wrote:]

I seem to be missing something. How can (for instance) the US government negotiate a deal to manufacture SH in India? Wouldn't that have to involve Boeing?


the US Govt. would be involved in whatever clearances would be required if, and that's a big if, a US OEM is selected. Obviously the OEM would be deeply involved as well, but the idea would be avoid all the L1/L2 tendering that took so much time and didn't give any proper results in MRCA 1.0. The same would apply for whichever other fighter/nation gets selected. The Govt. will not import 100+ fully built fighters from another nation. That would go against the very principle of Make in India that this Govt. has championed. If this Govt doesn't get re-elected then the next Govt. could well audit this entire process and institute a MRCA 3.0.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2018 05:54

Good post Kartik. I would humbly suggest you refrain from replying any further. He is on my blocked list. I cannot see any of his posts. He is a noun, a verb and F-18. Best ignored :)

BTW Kartik, see this below. IAF counter? :)

China deploys J-20 stealth jet fighter, names India as threat
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 959_1.html

With China’s air force deploying its “latest stealth jet fighter” – the J-20 Chengdu – one of the provocations could be the Indian Air Force (IAF) deployment of its top-of-the-line Sukhoi-30MKI fighter in Assam, near the disputed Sino-India border. The English language website “China Military Online” – an official People’s Liberation Army (PLA) news outlet – quoted an expert to state on Monday that the J-20 has been urgently operationalised because of the threat posed by the US, Japan, South Korea and India. This is perhaps the most authoritative portrayal so far of Indian air power as a threat to China. China Military Online states it is “Authorized by the Central Military Commission of the People's Republic of China (PRC) and sponsored by the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Daily.”

The J-20, which is China's first stealth fighter, made its maiden flight in 2011. It was first unveiled at China’s Zhuhai Air Show in 2016 and began delivery to the PLAAF in March 2017. Assuming it has no major flaws, this is an incredibly fast development trajectory, especially compared to the American F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter. On February 9, an official statement on the Weibo account of the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) had revealed that the J-20 had been deployed with combat units. Meanwhile, China is developing a second stealth fighter, the FC-31, which will fly off PLA Navy aircraft carriers. Beijing also hopes to target the international market with the FC-31. The J-20 is a twin-engine, multi-role fighter that has an exceptionally long range and can fly faster than 2,000 kilometers per hour. Its radar-scattering airframe, constructed from advanced, radar-absorbing materials makes it hard to detect at long ranges.

In wartime, experts assess that the PLAAF would use the J-20 to strike enemy “force multiplier” aircraft like refuelling tankers, reconnaissance aircraft and airborne command posts. Alternatively, it could be used for “stealth strikes”, slipping past enemy radars to attack high-value targets, warships or communication facilities. While the J-20 is unquestionably the PLAAF’s most advanced fighter, aerospace experts also point to significant weaknesses. The South China Morning Post, a reputed Hong Kong newspaper, has reported that China is still struggling to develop the Xian WS-15 engines (codenamed Emei) that the J-20 was built to fly with. As a stop-gap, the J-20 is flying with the less powerful WS-10B Taihang engine, compromising its performance. Mirroring India’s struggles with the Kaveri engine, Chinese scientists have failed to crack the challenge of developing “single crystal” turbine blades that can withstand the extreme temperatures in the combustion chamber of a high-performance fighter.

The Post concluded that the J-20 would only enter mass production when the WS-15 is performing suitably, which could take as long as eight years. Meanwhile, the US Air Force has begun deploying the F-35 in Japan’s Kadena air base. Japan, which has a F-35 production plant in-country, has 42 F-35s on order. South Korea will get its first F-35s this year, with 40 due to be delivered by 2021. Singapore too seems likely to opt for the F-35. Experts believe this rising threat might have rushed Beijing into prematurely introducing the J-20 into service. As this newspaper first reported (February 15, IAF looks to buy fifth-generation F-35 fighter) the IAF too has begun weighing the advantages of buying the US fifth-generation stealth fighter.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby GeorgeWelch » 27 Feb 2018 06:00

Kartik wrote:You clearly do not understand Indian politics. With a national election in 2019, this Govt. didn't want any accusations of having done any wrongdoing in selecting a fighter and paying several billions of $ without a fair competition. That is what led to the demise of the SEF program, since it put a restriction on number of engines and eliminated most of hte other suppliers.


I cannot imagine a situation where a competition results in less drama, less scrutiny, or fewer opportunities for corruption than simply exercising the options they already negotiated for the plane that already won their competition.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 27 Feb 2018 09:06

^^^
Welcome to India :D

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 27 Feb 2018 10:57

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Kartik wrote:You clearly do not understand Indian politics. With a national election in 2019, this Govt. didn't want any accusations of having done any wrongdoing in selecting a fighter and paying several billions of $ without a fair competition. That is what led to the demise of the SEF program, since it put a restriction on number of engines and eliminated most of hte other suppliers.


I cannot imagine a situation where a competition results in less drama, less scrutiny, or fewer opportunities for corruption than simply exercising the options they already negotiated for the plane that already won their competition.


They didn't have any options as far as I can recall, with the 36 Rafales that were bought as part of the G2G contract. So none could be exercised. It would require a fresh contract and then no buy-off-the-shelf would be done, since the question that would be raised (as it was by the numbskull Rahul Gandhi) would be, why didn't the Govt. negotiate for ToT and local assembly..something the Great Congress Party has convinced itself and its supporters that it almost succeeded in doing..in their own fantasy land of course. They didn't come close to signing the original MRCA contract either and simply kicked the ball down the road.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 27 Feb 2018 11:28

They didn't "kick the ball down the road" ,remember that they were "kicked out"! But I am utterly convinced that the saintly Anthony would've got his spotless dhoti in a real twist deciding upon the deal.His dhoti was being pulled by vested interests in different directions.

Now the accusation that this GOI does bugger all,is that they "did nothing" while China advances further,may happen at election time,swinging the ball the other way so to speak.The GOI must not be caught napping again on this score too. The hallmark of a good govt. is one that doesn't bother about political consequences,but strides forth boldly.We thought that Mr. M after the demon issue was just that,but in intl. matters regarding our security when one has to bite the bullet,we've been found wanting.The Maldives for instance and really punishing Pak,at least heavy diplomatic sanctions.We've not even had the guts to declare it a rogue terrorist state,hoping that the intl. community will do it for us! sadly our MEA are a bunch of losers.

We on BRF can have our favourites,but when crisis is at hand,we're all screaming out for decisiveness.The time is almost with us as was with the AJT that we screamed "any bl**dy trainer will do,but please take a decision!".AS the Chinese call us enemy and up their capability in Tibet even testing stationing their stealth birds there for the future,we dilly and dally.The IAF needs hundreds of new aircraft as of now,to replace the hundreds of MIGs retiring.For heaven's sake NS,etc.,please decide now and forget about the criticism from the oppn.,trust the voter.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2018 23:47

The author is making the case for the F-35....website does not allow me to cut-and-paste.

View: Why India should not delay its fighter jet procurement
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 100982.cms

By Yusuf T Unjhawala

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2018 23:50

Expedite defence procurement process: Lockheed to India
https://www.indiatoday.in/pti-feed/stor ... 2018-02-26

Visakhapatnam, Feb 26 (PTI): US-based aerospace and defence giant Lockheed Martin wants India to work on few areas like expediting defence procurement process with a view to attracting companies to the sector. Phil Shaw, the chief executive of Lockheed Martin India, said that the company wants to invest in India and include the country in its supply chain. He said that besides improving ease of doing business, there are couple of things that need to be done by the central government to facilitate investments for the defence sector in India.

One, he said, is "length of defence procurement is pretty long " and in this area, states can collectively encourage the central government to speed up the process "to start to see some of the investments". "Also the predictability of some procurement are little bit suspect," he said here at CIIs Partnership Summit yesterday. Shaw added that when a company spending many years talking about particular programmes and if they get cancelled or postponed, it is a bit disincentive for them. He said Indian government wants to promote defence manufacturing under the Make in India initiative but "Make in India in defence is reliant on these procurement" decisions.

Shaw also said that the government focuses on lowest cost technically acceptable solution in defence, but if the country is looking at capability, establishing industrial footprint, green technology, creating jobs and ecosystem, one needs to look beyond costs and focus on best interest of India. Lockheed Martin has proposed to manufacture custom-built F-16 fighter jets in India, which its officials say would give Indian industry a unique opportunity to become part of the worlds largest fighter aircraft ecosystem.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2018 23:55

Saint Antony weighs in on Rafale deal. Website does not allow me to cut-and-paste.

The way the Congress stalwarts are harping about this 126 number for the MMRCA, it appears they are just as inclined to induct more Rafales like the BJP. Just playing vote bank politics to get into power.

Rafale deal led to big loss for national interest: AK Antony
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 088720.cms

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rudradev » 28 Feb 2018 02:07

N00b pooch.

Turkish Air Force has 14 F-35s on order and a total of 120 planned per Wikipedia.

The Turks, particularly under Erdogan, have shown a very signficant degree of strategic autonomy and outright divergence from US foreign policy. They're a NATO member, and a Level-3 partner in the F-35 program to the tune of $195M. However, they're also flirting with Russia (planning to buy the S-400 from them!) and attacking US proxies at will, including YPG/YPJ in Syria.

What does this mean? Are the Turks not concerned about "kill switches" or EULA/CISMOA choke-points? One of the arguments I've repeatedly heard against American hardware for the IAF is that we will somehow be constrained in our use of it against targets that the US might not approve of, e.g. Pakistan. The Turks seem to have no such concern if they're going ahead with a huge purchase of F-35s. Is there a reason we could not go for this plane without compromising our strategic autonomy? Am I missing something here?

I do realize the F-35 is not yet on offer, but I'm talking about the strategic autonomy aspect of it.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2018 02:34

The Turks will use them on the Kurds only. They kill and not need kill switches.

When India signs up with US against China then the kill switches will be disabled. So long as its Pakistan, the kill switches for India and extra weapons to Pakistan are on order.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2018 02:35

Rakesh this 36 plane contract has an option for 18 more at same price to be agreed to later date within reason.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 28 Feb 2018 02:43

ramana wrote:The Turks will use them on the Kurds only. They kill and not need kill switches.

When India signs up with US against China then the kill switches will be disabled. So long as its Pakistan, the kill switches for India and extra weapons to Pakistan are on order.

Which is exactly why they should be stationed in the Eastern theatre at one airbase, which the Amreekis can inspect 24-7.

ramana wrote:Rakesh this 36 plane contract has an option for 18 more at same price to be agreed to later date within reason.

I hope they up that order from 18 to 44 planes. Thus two squadrons each at the two airbases + attrition reserves (80 aircraft in total).

28 single seaters are coming + 8 dual seaters, in the first batch of 36 Rafales.

I would personally love to see the second batch be the same of 28 + 8, but the the remaining 8 should also be dual seaters.

So 56 single seaters + 24 dual seaters. Beautiful. Samosa-Chai Time :)

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rudradev » 28 Feb 2018 03:06

ramana wrote:The Turks will use them on the Kurds only. They kill and not need kill switches.

.


Turks don't need F-35s to kill Kurds. Doesn't justify the scale of investment required.

That kind of aircraft can only be useful against a few of Turkey's potential adversaries. Only Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, Greece, Iran and Russia have air forces and ADS sophisticated enough to warrant their use. Given Erdogan's proclivities he would want the freedom to engage in hostilities with any or all of them.

Other than Iran and Russia I could see the US having a serious problem with his attacking any of the others. Isn't Erdogan afraid of the "kill switch" being employed if he does?

Remember this is a guy against whom Washington tacitly backed a coup by Gulenists in the armed forces to take out.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2018 03:49

He will fly them in parades to show his military power.

Erdogoan is now Janus like in both Trump and Putin camps.
The Gulenist plot was by Obama which did not work.

Anyway not relevant here.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 28 Feb 2018 04:55

ramana wrote:Rakesh this 36 plane contract has an option for 18 more at same price to be agreed to later date within reason.


AFAIR, there were no options included.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rony » 28 Feb 2018 06:52

Rudradev wrote:Are the Turks not concerned about "kill switches" or EULA/CISMOA choke-points?


Not sure of the turkish govt but turkish equivalent of Jingos (both islamist and kemalist varieties) whom i encountered online are terrified of this 'kill switches' and pretty much resigned to the fact that US will use it (whatever that means) if it comes to it.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 01 Mar 2018 01:07

Lockheed Martin says offer to build F-16s in India stands firms
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... KbIAI.html

“We haven’t heard anything officially from the government and continue to pursue opportunities to build F-16s under the Make in India framework,” said Vivek Lall, Lockheed vice-president (strategy and business development). India is preparing to launch a fresh hunt for fighter aircraft to sharpen the combat edge of the Indian Air Force that is grappling with a shortage of warplanes, Hindustan Times had reported last week. However, there has been no official announcement.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kashi » 01 Mar 2018 07:48

Rakesh wrote:
“We haven’t heard anything officially from the government...


Let's hope it stays that way for a long long time...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Viv S » 01 Mar 2018 08:26

No request made to US for F-35 fighter jet, says IAF chief B S Dhanoa
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has denied that it has shown explicit interest in procuring the American F-35 Lightning II aircraft for its depleting fighter fleet. The reports about IAF approaching Lockheed Martin for a classified briefing on the F-35 came amid news that the government has decided to scrap the proposal to make a single-engine foreign fighter in India.

“We have not officially asked for a briefing on the F-35 nor has any request been made to the Americans,” IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa told The Indian Express.

Sources said that buying the next set of fighter jets is a decision to be taken on many considerations, including strategic ones. Financial considerations, when budgetary provisions are limited for any big-ticket procurement by the defence ministry, will also play an important part in any decision-making.

Sources also said that as the IAF is already down to 31 squadrons of fighter aircraft against an authorisation of 42, it is imperative to make the shortfall on an emergent basis. It would thus be best to go for a government-to-government deal to get the next set of fighters.

According to sources, the proposal to buy and make a single-engine fighter was taken two years ago on multiple considerations. These included the cost of a single-engine fighter which is significantly lower than that of a double-engine fighter like Rafale.

Moreover, the cost of operating a single-engine fighter is lesser than that of a double-engine fighter. An early decision on selection would have allowed the IAF to build up its fighter strength, along with the induction of HAL-built indigenous Tejas fighter aircraft.

The government was also looking to kickstart a defence manufacturing ecosystem in the country by building the single-engine fighter fully in India.

The decision to scrap the proposal for a single-engine fighter was taken because the government felt it would result in a single-vendor situation. Although Boeing’s F-16 fighter aircraft was in contention along with the Swedish Gripen fighter, the American aeroplane was a non-starter as it does not have a “probe-and-drogue” air-to-air refueling system. Moreover, the F-16 is also in service with IAF’s adversary in a war, the Pakistan Air Force.

A single-vendor situation, under the Strategic Partnership model with a private Indian company, is unacceptable in the current political environment, sources added. Meanwhile, official sources said that the whole Strategic Partnership model of defence manufacturing is under the government’s serious reconsideration.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ramana » 01 Mar 2018 08:33

Rakesh, Should we consider closing this as the Tejas Mk2 decision has been made? Or keep it open for a while.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Viv S » 01 Mar 2018 08:36

This MRCA deal appears to be going through as per the statements attributed to the IAF; albeit on a govt-to-govt basis (like the ongoing Belgian tender).

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby deejay » 01 Mar 2018 09:07

VivS, the new deal is for selecting TejasMk2. No one else will be able to compete.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Viv S » 01 Mar 2018 10:05

deejay wrote:VivS, the new deal is for selecting TejasMk2. No one else will be able to compete.

You don’t really need any sort of competition or govt-to-govt deal of the kind being pushed by the IAF to acquire the Tejas Mk2.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 01 Mar 2018 12:33

Oooooh! The number of vested interests working for various OEMs is getting exciting.e have "reliable" reports about the JSF enquiry only to be denied by the chief.What gives? Was the abrupt statement from the Russkies the reason for the clarification? Anyway,latest info for the record about the JSF,progrsamme director still p*ssed off with Lockheed,is that the costs may now come to just below $100M/unit,around $97M including the engine. Now that's a significant sum lower than the Raffy and purely on cost considerations,the JSF should be added to the menu for the MRCA contest,for comparison with other suitors. How much bang you get for your buck.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 01 Mar 2018 16:25

Philip wrote:Anyway,latest info for the record about the JSF,progrsamme director still p*ssed off with Lockheed,is that the costs may now come to just below $100M/unit,around $97M including the engine. Now that's a significant sum lower than the Raffy and purely on cost considerations,the JSF should be added to the menu for the MRCA contest,for comparison with other suitors. How much bang you get for your buck.



Phillip, every PEO at the JPO will be pissed off with Lockheed during negotiations especially when they drag for a long time and there is no agreement between the two parties each looking for a better long term deal. That said, the previous contract for 90 aircraft brought the fly-away (URF) price of the F-35A to $94.6 Million with the engine and fees for the contractor. The current contract under final negotiations is for aircraft that are delivered starting second half of the year (the contracts are signed in phases with the final phase sealing the top line and definitizing the amount - the aircraft are already in production). The current contract is for around 150 aircraft so the Fly-Away cost could indeed come to below $90 Million for the CTOL variant. That the fly-away price of the F-35 is competitive if not less than that of the Rafale and Eurofigther is not surprising or even under much debate. There are multiple global deals where these aircraft are competing on capability and price so decisions are being made around the world. The main question with it is always going to be whether the F-35 will be on offer based on the MRCA terms floated by the MOD given the current state of G2G level talks.

For last years (Lot-10) prices broken by variant see below. Lot-11 should come in at around 4-5% lower on average per unit basis given it is a larger production lot (production moving from 90 to around 150 per lot).

https://www.f35.com/news/detail/agreeme ... am-history

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby GeorgeWelch » 01 Mar 2018 17:35

Viv S wrote:No request made to US for F-35 fighter jet, says IAF chief B S Dhanoa
the American aeroplane was a non-starter as it does not have a “probe-and-drogue” air-to-air refueling system


https://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/12 ... mmrca.html

The report notes that “During the flight testing and MMRCA demonstrations, the CARTS-equipped F-16 successfully received fuel from both a modified DC-10 and an Indian Air Force Ilyushin Il-78 tanker aircraft and made approximately forty aerial refueling contacts.


Viv S wrote:No request made to US for F-35 fighter jet, says IAF chief B S Dhanoa
Moreover, the F-16 is also in service with IAF’s adversary in a war, the Pakistan Air Force


The F-16 on offer is no closer to the F-16 Pakistan has than the MKI is to what China has.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 01 Mar 2018 18:54

On cost alone , no bias intended, why is the JSF not being considered instead of ultra expensive Rafales now that the contest is a free-for-all? It is now a worthwhile proposition as costs have fallen below the $100M mark and possesses tech a generation superior to the non-stealthy Rafale.It isn't the magic bullet , invincible as originally intended, but entering service across the globe and will reach a level of combat cability soon which would be acceptable to the IAF.The Rafale is being pushed by vested interests at simply outrageous prices, a scandalalous deal that should be terminated at 36 or just a few more for war reserves.

There are far better cost-effective alternatives from SS MKIs, upgraded SU-35s at the heavy end, much more capable than the Rafale and others mentioned in earlier posts.The point about refuelling probes is arguable as MKIs armed with BMos which the Rafale can't carry can do the biz far better! With the JSF the AMCA might get KO'd out of the ring though but whatever bird is selected the FGFA is reqd. asap in view of the Chin threat increasing by the day. SU-57s in Syria will be keenly watched by all.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 01 Mar 2018 18:59

The F-35 is not on offer at this moment, and when the Rafale was selected the IAF could not have evaluated the F-35 because a) it was still not mature, and b) it was not on offer. The new government decided to cancel the MMRCA, which had hit a dead end, and go straight into a G2G deal for the Rafale which was seen as the fastest way at the time (non controversial) to provide the IAF its desired aircraft and which it had evaluated and selected. Of course now, if the competition is opened up for additional aircraft and if it advances then the F-35 will be a strong contender as long as it is offered. It has competed against and is facing off against similar set of aircraft elsewhere and has so far not lost a competition against them.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 01 Mar 2018 20:08

Exactly the point I' m making."Horses for courses".A good open transparent contest.Capability and cost-effectiveness. However, it would require a dramatic policy shift in our torturous acquisition process which is possibly the most sadistic on the planet. In the last 25 years, it has been only one fighter aircraft ,the SU-30 that has been acquired by the IAF! The Hawk AJT a little earlier after a 25 yr. "chase"!
Of course the Rafale has been selected and ordered a few years after selection, so one can see that taking such a drcision is akin to a miracle.

The transport acquisitions, etc.,was the quid-pro-quo for the N-deal and was a swift G-to-G acquisition just like the P-8Is.At that time there was no alternative to heavylifters with the IL-476 yet to arrive.No alternative too for the excellent C-130Js of which we need another batch.This is the best way to go forward, but there are too many options when ig comes to combat aorcraft.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 01 Mar 2018 20:33

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Should we consider closing this as the Tejas Mk2 decision has been made? Or keep it open for a while.

I know where you are going with this :) I would recommend closing it for now. We can always reopen this at a later date, when something concrete happens.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cybaru » 02 Mar 2018 02:08

This is how it might play out.

1. F-35 may take time to make appearance if it ever does. Too many 4-6 letter treaties may be required. Indian navy may see f-35B in it's colors before IAF will. Negates the need for catapult. (Means no ship based aew or ship based drones), but spare money for extra 10 machines.

2. 36-44 Rafales may possibly happen on March 10th (or soonly) along with safran engine joint venture (known)

3. Su-57 may get a production license for 96-108 in Nashik factory. We may just want to license produce it and modify it like MKI. Hopefully we don't become partners. Let them invest and take it to completion and sell it to whoever they like. We pay for assembling and our own mods.

4. AMCA will see another run of 200-300 machines.

5. (Very low likely-hood) We may see some refurbed Mirages show up for current use (qatar and french stocks), more and more unlikely as LCA is cheaper, newer and more effective.

So total imports as things stand currently are only 36-44 planes. Rest all may change to a lower number as we get more confidence in ourselves. From here onwards, I think IAF won't want 3rd/4th gen planes. We won't import anymore of those.

I do wish that we sign a JV with Thales to make next gen Spectra for LCA-mk2 and a complete EW and IRST/MAWS suite.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 02 Mar 2018 10:25

^^^
Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cybaru » 02 Mar 2018 11:40

i was referring to another smaller component that we have heard rumors of, but has never been verified.

From wiki

"Thales Group and Dassault Aviation have mentioned stealthy jamming modes for the SPECTRA system, to reduce the aircraft's apparent radar signature. It is not known exactly how these work or even if the capability is fully operational, but it may employ active cancellation technology, such as has been tested by Thales and MBDA. Active cancellation is supposed to work by sampling and analysing incoming radar and feeding it back to the hostile emitter out of phase thus cancelling out the returning radar echo.[3]"


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