MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Kartik
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 07 Dec 2019 01:13

mahadevbhu wrote:Why can't the JSF be entered into the mmrca competition? Why is it not already entered in it.?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... f-35-24724

Tldr: expensive, ties up.IAF and USAF much more.
But look at the clear Dynamics that it transmits across the Himalayan mountains to China.

The Rafale is 4.5. JSF is a gigantic step forward and it will put the IAF ahead as well as serving as a template for the AMCA.
The mirage 2000 inspired the LCA in a similar fashion and the JSF will.the AMCA


You do know that the S-400 is contracted for by India, right? And you do know that Turkey was ejected from the F-35 program despite being a partner nation thanks to its S-400 deal?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 07 Dec 2019 01:16

vishvak wrote:How will we follow the agreement during wartime without alarm s going off.

Better add a giant spring (connected to legs) at the back of MiG 29 for landing ops and buy more of the same, with additional pods/batteries for Electronic W/D.


GIANT SPRING?! You want the MiG-29K to bounce back up into the air on landing or what?! :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby vishvak » 07 Dec 2019 03:24

That was an OT comment, though that's not primary problem which is will it work.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 10 Dec 2019 05:52

From AW&ST

Saab Flies First Production Gripen E For Swedish Air Force
Aerospace Daily & Defense Report Dec 09, 2019
Tony Osborne

Saab has flown the first series production JAS 39E Gripen NG fighter destined for the Swedish Air Force.

Gripen 6002 flew for the first time on Nov. 30, but the Swedish OEM did not announce the flight until Dec. 3 through its social media channels.

The addition of aircraft 6002 brings the number of Gripen Es flying to five, including three prototypes and the first aircraft for the Brazilian Air Force.

Saab had hoped to have as many as seven Gripen Es flying by year’s end. But company officials have told Aerospace DAILY that activities have been replanned, with the additional two aircraft—which had been due to fly before year’s end—now undergoing ground testing until the beginning of next year.


“That is a decision that’s better for the overall program, rather than getting two more in the air this year,” the company said. “The Gripen E/F program continues to deliver good progress according to the schedule and are on track to deliver in line with customer agreements.”

The aircraft was flown by Maj. Henrik Wänseth from the Swedish Defense Material Administration (FMV) and flew for 76 min. The flight included test points to verify basic handling and flying qualities at different altitudes and speeds. Test officials said the aircraft performed as expected.

As well as sporting an unusual splinter camouflage scheme not previously seen on the Gripen E development aircraft, 6002 was also the first Swedish aircraft to feature the wide-area display cockpit. The Swedish Air Force opted for the AEL Sistemas-developed display in November 2018.

Saab currently has orders for 60 Gripens from Sweden and 36 aircraft for Brazil including eight two-seat versions, development of which is taking place in Brazil with a joint Swedish/Brazilian team.

The flight comes after Saab announced on Nov. 25 that it had inaugurated a Gripen Development Simulator at Embraer’s site in Gavião Peixoto as part of the technology transfer program for the Brazilian element of the fighter program.

The simulator will be used for development tests and verification of systems and subsystems of Gripen in Brazil, including the integration of new weaponry.


Check out how good their PR is. They didn't manage to put 7 into the air like originally planned and now say it is better for the program that there are 5 in the air instead.

BTW, Brazil is supposed to start negotiations with Saab for the second 36 Gripen E/F order. There will likely be a third order placed as well, for a total of around 108 jets.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby mahadevbhu » 15 Dec 2019 08:55

Kartik wrote:
mahadevbhu wrote:Why can't the JSF be entered into the mmrca competition? Why is it not already entered in it.?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... f-35-24724

Tldr: expensive, ties up.IAF and USAF much more.
But look at the clear Dynamics that it transmits across the Himalayan mountains to China.

The Rafale is 4.5. JSF is a gigantic step forward and it will put the IAF ahead as well as serving as a template for the AMCA.
The mirage 2000 inspired the LCA in a similar fashion and the JSF will.the AMCA


You do know that the S-400 is contracted for by India, right? And you do know that Turkey was ejected from the F-35 program despite being a partner nation thanks to its S-400 deal?


Yes. Thanks.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 16 Dec 2019 05:25

mahadevbhu wrote:
Kartik wrote:
You do know that the S-400 is contracted for by India, right? And you do know that Turkey was ejected from the F-35 program despite being a partner nation thanks to its S-400 deal?


Yes. Thanks.


Then why ask questions about why the F-35 isn't there in the MRCA program? It should be patently obvious that the S-400 precludes the option of F-35.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ramana » 17 Dec 2019 20:22

Manu Pubby reports that an new agreement ISa will be signed in DC as part of 2+2 dialog. It provides for industrial security of US designs with private industry.

basically US wants GOI to guarantee that Indian industry wont leak their secrets!!!

Bet $ to doughnut hole that Ambani et al will be employing Pakis and getting loans from Gulf Sheiks

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 19 Dec 2019 21:25

So you cannot port anything from the design (F-16 or F-18) to our own platforms? Is that what this is about?

Saab wants control over the manufacturing of the Gripen if they win the contract.

Dassault could not provide guarantee of Indian-built Rafales at HAL.

And the Russians don't care.

My goodness, what a mess this is!! :lol:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Bhaskar_T » 20 Dec 2019 18:35

Good to hear.


IAF planning 'swift trials' in Rs 1.5 lakh crore 114 fighter jet deal
(Posted 20 Dec 2019)

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/iaf-planning-swift-trials-in-rs-1-5-lakh-crore-114-fighter-jet-deal/amp_articleshow/72899663.cms

NEW DELHI: In the over Rs 1.5 lakh crore deal for manufacturing 114 multirole fighter aircraft, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is planning to compress the time taken for carrying out trials of all the participants to less than a year to ensure that the force gets its new combat aircraft at a faster rate.

Last time, when the Indian Air Force carried out trials of multiple fighter aircraft for the scrapped deal of 126 multirole fighter aircraft, the service had taken 18 months to complete the process in the contract which lingered on for several years before getting cancelled due to complications.

"This time, the Indian Air Force is planning to hold trials of all the competitors who participate in the tender in less than a year so that time is saved. The fact that most of the systems and avionics of the participating firms have been tested will also help in shortening the time taken from trials," defence sources told ANI.

All the major fighter aircraft manufacturers including Sukhoi and MiG from Russia, Lockheed Martin and Boeing from the United States of America, Eurofighter consortium from Europe and Saab group from Sweden have responded to the Request for Proposal for the deal expected to be the biggest ever in terms of quantity of aircraft and the amount of money to be spent on it.

The Indian Air Force is expected to seek approval of the Defence Acquisition Council for the deal in the next few months for over Rs 1.5 lakh crore under the strategic partnership policy as part of which Indian firms will have to tie up with foreign partners to build the aircraft in India.

The deal is being considered as an important step in fulfilling the shortage of squadrons in the IAF which is looking for fighters to replace the MiG-21, MiG-23 and MiG-27 fighter planes some of which have already been phased out while others are on their way out of service in the next few years.

The Russian-origin Sukhoi-30MKI with over 12 squadrons in service will be the mainstay of the force while the two squadrons of the Rafale fighters would be the most potent in terms of capability in the next decade for the force which is looking to indigenous routes for the fifth-generation fighter planes.


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Dec 2019 19:12

Not good to hear, it will mean a new type of aircraft in the IAF which is 4-4.5 gen being inducted in 4-5 years time. Thought LCA MK1/1A/2/ TEDBF etc before we move to 5th gen fighters.

Spending 1.5 Lakh crore acquisition cost plus various other costs for support training etc makes no sense.

I hope it Rafale as the as the IAF at least has the type is definitely going to be inducted, will have the nessecary spare parts and infrastructure - I think given the existing investment at USD 21 Billion it might just make it.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ashishvikas » 20 Dec 2019 20:05

Dassault Rafale M versus F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: carrier fighters compared

https://hushkit.net/2019/12/20/dassault ... ssion=true

Beyond visual range combat

With a slight advantage in general radar detection range for the APG-79 on the Super Hornet over the RBE but a significantly lower frontal radar cross section and better ECM capabilities on the Rafale, the Rafale will probably get the first look.

Within visual range combat

Within visual range, the Rafale M would be in a very dominant position against a Super Hornet in almost all circumstances.

Acceleration/ climb rate / top speed/ ceiling

The Rafale M wins comfortably over the Super Hornet in all these categories


Instantaneous turn rate / sustained turn / High alpha / G loadings/ sustained G


Here again, the Rafale M wins on most counts, with the advantage in instantaneous turn, sustained turn and sustained G turning performance. The Rafale M is cleared to +9G whilst the Super Hornet is limited to +7.5G.


Range/endurance

Both Rafale M and Super Hornet are also capable of air to air refuelling using probe and drogue equipped tankers, or buddy buddy refuelling.

Rafale M has a significantly greater overall combat radius for most missions than the F/A-18E.


Weapons options

The Super Hornet is the winner on most counts on weapons options. Whilst the Rafale M can carry a significantly greater external payload, especially when also carrying three external fuel tanks, the Super Hornet benefits in terms of flexibility and cost of munitions from being cleared to carry and deliver practically every weapon in the vast US air-launched inventory.



Biggest plus and minus for each aircraft

For Super Hornet

+ huge user community resulting in affordable spares and upgrades, as well as docile handling, excellent high-alpha performance in a merge, and access to the full suite of US air-delivered weaponry.

– Underpowered for its weight especially at high altitudes, and high-drag pylon arrangement means external stores drag penalties are increased.

For Rafale M

+ advanced aerodynamic design and avionics fit at least half a generation ahead of the Super Hornet, with brutal WVR performance below 35,000ft

– relatedly small user community and French-specific weapons and systems mean operating costs are higher and global spare parts base is much more restricted. Also still not operating with a HMS

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby kit » 20 Dec 2019 21:26

Image
Image


Rafale vs F/A-18E Flight Cost Per Hour
Image

Image

Overall and BVR ratings

CATEGORY DASSAULT RAFALE F/A-18E/F SUPER HORNET
BVR Rating 90% 83%
Armament 8.6/10 7.9/10
Technology 8.5/10 8.9/10
Avionics 8.4/10 9.0/10
Maneuverability 9.3/10 7.8/10
Rate of Climb max. 300 m/s – 60k ft/min max. 228 m/s – 44k ft/min
Thrust/Weight 1.13 1.03
Service Ceiling 17 km – 55k ft 15 km – 50k ft
Speed 2.00 Mach 1.80 Mach
Fuel Economy 0.70 km/l – 1.65 NM/gallon 0.60 km/l – 1.21 NM/gallon
Unit Cost 130.000.000 USD 80.000.000 USD
Overall Rating excellent very good
BVR (Beyond Visual Range) Ratings

CATEGORY DASSAULT RAFALE F/A-18E/F SUPER HORNET
BVR AAM missile MBDA Meteor AIM-120 AMRAAM
AAM origin NATO USA
Year in 2013 in 1997
Range (mile) 62 45
Range (km) 100 75
Speed (mph) 2640 2640
Speed (km/h) 4248 4248
Radar Thales RBE2-AA AN/APG-79
Radar overall rating excellent excellent
BVR Technology 85% 83%
BVR Def. Tech. 85% 80%
RCS – Radar Cross Section 0.5-2.0 1.0-2.5
Dogfight (close to medium range) Ratings

CATEGORY DASSAULT RAFALE F/A-18E/F SUPER HORNET
Cannon GIAT 30M/719B M61A1 Vulcan
Caliber (mm) 30 mm 20 mm
Rate of Fire (rpm) 2500 rpm 6000 rpm
Muzzle Velocity 1025 m/s 1050 m/s
Size Point 10%-30% 20% 20%
Maneuverability 9.3 7,8
Thrust/Weight Ratio 1,13 1.03
AAM (first) MBDA MICA AIM-7 Sparrow
Operational range 0.2 – 50 km 0.2 – 50 km
AAM (second) R.550 MAGIC II AIM-9 Sidewinder
Operational range 0.3 – 15 km 0.5 – 30 km
Dogfight Rating 76% 57%
Size Comparison

CATEGORY DASSAULT RAFALE F/A-18E/F SUPER HORNET
Length 15.27 m – 50 ft 1 in 18.4 m – 60.1 ft
Wingspan 10.80 m – 35 ft 4 in 13.65 m – 45 ft 0 in
Wing area 45.7 m² – 492 ft² 46.5 m² – 500 sq ft
Height 5.30 m – 17 ft 3 in 4.88 m – 16.0 ft
Weight 10,100 kg – 22,6k lb 14,500 kg – 32,0k lb
Power 2 x 75 kN – 17k lbf 2 x 97 kN – 22k lbf


Read more https://aviatia.net/rafale-vs-f-18/

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Nihat » 20 Dec 2019 22:19

Bhaskar_T wrote:IAF planning 'swift trials' in Rs 1.5 lakh crore 114 fighter jet deal
https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 899663.cms

What a colossal waste of resources.

We have Tejas, mki and rafale coming into the force as established platforms and yet we insist on wasting time and resources on creating a khichadi of an air force.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Indranil » 21 Dec 2019 01:44

0.26 lakh for 83 Tejas Mk1A. For 1.5 lakh, one can get 479 Tejas Mk1A. Apply economies of scale and probably you can get more. But, leave that aside. What special qualities will this 114 aircraft bring which 4 times the number of LCA's can't?!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Nikhil T » 21 Dec 2019 01:45

Nihat wrote:
Bhaskar_T wrote:Good to hear.

What a colossal waste of resources.

We have Tejas, mki and rafale coming into the force as established platforms and yet we insist on wasting time and resources on creating a khichadi of an air force.

Have no doubt that this contract will be rigged in favor of the Rafales. Wait for a few months and we'll start hearing arguments in favor of the Rafale - commonality of equipment, lower acquisition costs because we already operate them etc.

As Indranil said, I would've liked to spend this money on keeping the Tejas MK1 production going until MK1A comes online - especially when the IAF claims that MK1 is at par or better than M2K and spend the remaining money on obtaining true game changers like AWACS, tankers, EW, and Meteors that we don't have the money for today.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vivek K » 21 Dec 2019 02:32

I have begun to believe that Indian procurement mafia is going to ensure India’s defeat - buying diverse aircraft to put a strain on logistics. Even with 100s of billions poured on imports, the qualitative difference between Indian and even paki forces is wafer thin that can be upset by a single purchase or gift aka AAMRAAM.

India is served poorly by MOD baby’s, service leaders - the whole lot! What a way to run a country! And to make matters worse there are traitors under every brick Pooh pooing domestic purchases and brushing failures of imports under the rug!

Sad!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 21 Dec 2019 03:11

Indranil wrote:0.26 lakh for 83 Tejas Mk1A. For 1.5 lakh, one can get 479 Tejas Mk1A. Apply economies of scale and probably you can get more. But, leave that aside. What special qualities will this 114 aircraft bring which 4 times the number of LCA's can't?!

Why would international players shoot themselves in the foot by supplying 479 engines for the LCA? The day we make Kaveri we can make these kind of plans. Till then the piece meal acquisitions and keeping everybody happy will continue.
Last edited by Vips on 21 Dec 2019 04:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 21 Dec 2019 03:18

Indranil wrote:0.26 lakh for 83 Tejas Mk1A. For 1.5 lakh, one can get 479 Tejas Mk1A. Apply economies of scale and probably you can get more. But, leave that aside. What special qualities will this 114 aircraft bring which 4 times the number of LCA's can't?!

Not to worry ;) No such thing as “imminent” in the Indian context. The Indian bureaucracy in its glacial movement through the procurement steps will delay the deal long enough for the MK.1A/2 to become real alternatives.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 21 Dec 2019 03:31

kit wrote:Rafale vs F/A-18E Flight Cost Per Hour
Image

Image

Holy Moly! The operational flight cost per hour and the unit cost difference between Rafale and the Hornet is HUGE. Correspondingly Is Rafale twice as potent as the Hornet - Certainly Not.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2019 04:36

Vips: That is just one among many parameters (technical) that the IAF has to consider.

The GOI has the political parameters to consider as well.

With 36 Rafales already coming, the only question that remains is this ---> what can the other competitors do better than the Rafale? What game changing technology is present on the MiG-35, Su-35, Gripen E, F-21, F-18 Block III or Eurofighter Typhoon that the Rafale does not have? If unit cost is the only factor, the Rafale will lose spectacularly. The F-21, F-18 and Gripen E will clean Dassault's clock on that measure.

But again, unit cost is just one data point to consider. Please also consider the cost of base infrastructure, weapons, simulators, tools, spares, pilot and ground personnel training, etc, etc, etc. All of this will be a cost (+ profit) imposed by the OEM. None of the OEMs are running Mother Teresa's Home for the Aged & Downtrodden. Please note, the GOI has already paid for all of the above with the 36 Rafales. So more weapons - of the same type - will be required if Rafale wins again. So more Meteors, SCALP, MICAs, etc.

If any of the other competitors win, the GOI will be spending even more money for all of the above.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2019 04:40

For folks who are shocked/surprised that the MRCA deal is moving ahead...please refer to Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhaduria who has said that the IAF is moving full steam ahead with the purchase. The same chief has also said no more imports after this. Focus will then be on AMCA. So 114 aircraft are coming, as per the IAF. The *ONLY* hurdle that remains is when the technical down-select is done and the bid is opened by the Babus at the MoD for price negotiation. Asthma attacks are bound to occur at North Block on that day.

Here is a sobering data point --> 57 carrier borne fighters is expected to cost the GOI nothing short of Rs 95,000 crore (or US $13.3 billion as per today's exchange rate between the Indian Rupee and the American Dollar). And the F-18 Super Hornet Block III is supposedly leading the contest, with the Rafale M not too far behind....followed by the Sea Gripen and the MiG-29K.

Requests for proposals: Indian Navy looks to buy 57 fighters for Rs 95,000 crore
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/1136675/

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 21 Dec 2019 04:54

Rakesh wrote:Vips: That is just one among many parameters (technical) that the IAF has to consider.

The GOI has the political parameters to consider as well.


Yes certainly. France has been a clear supporter of India at the UN. No dobut strategic considerations are big.
Rakesh wrote:
With 36 Rafales already coming, the only question that remains is this ---> what can the other competitors do better than the Rafale? What game changer is present on the MiG-35, Su-35, F-21, F-18 Block III or Eurofighter Typhoon that the Rafale does not have?


MIG-35 - Less said about it the better
SU-35 with SU30 MKI soon getting the SUPER 30 Upgrade including SU35 engines, some common avionics and also the new radar question is what is that SU 35 has that the upgraded SU30 MKI wont?
F-21 - A strict no no - Scratch it and its a F16.
Eurofighter Typhoon - A contender but with 36 Rafale already in service why would we go for it?
Leaves the race just between the Hornet and Rafale - Both have advantages over the other competitors in having a Naval version which will also be a player for the Indian Navy order for 56 jets.

Rakesh wrote:If cost was the only factor...the Rafale will lose spectacularly.

Agreed.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2019 05:07

Vips wrote:Yes certainly. France has been a clear supporter of India at the UN. No dobut strategic considerations are big.

France has been courting India left, right and center. They are playing all the right cards and hitting all the right notes. The French Ambassador has said that CAA (Citizenship Amendment Act) is India's internal matter. That has certainly been heard loud and clear at South Block. That is not to say that Unkil's influence will be sidelined. India has a great relationship with Amreeka and it will only grow stronger in the years ahead. Win or lose the MRCA contest, Unkil will remain a key player in the Indian defence market.

All this randi-rona-dhona that the relationship will go down the tubes, if Amreeka does not win the contest...is quite frankly nonsense peddled by a few on BRF and by some in the media. Nothing of that sort will happen. If they lose, Amreeka will make some noise and then it will be business as usual.

Vips wrote:Leaves the race just between the Hornet and Rafale - Both have advantages over the other competitors in having a Naval version which will also be a player for the Indian Navy order for 56 jets.

You hit the nail on the head. You can see the writing on the wall :) The only two contenders are the Super Hornet and the Rafale. As I said before, the rest are just there for eye candy and to give the "appearance" of a process. Both have their strengths and both are better than the other on differing parameters, i.e. like the cost-per-flight-hour in which the Super Hornet is the clear winner. The Rafale has some strengths as well.

On the industrial package, Boeing would be the clear winner. Nobody can do manufacturing like Unkil, not even my philanthropic friends from La France. If Boeing wins the contest (which is likely), the industrial package will be the clincher.

On the technical aspect, the IAF is convinced without a doubt, that the Rafale can go head-to-head against any threat in the foreseeable future from the PAF or the PLAAF. And neither is the F-35 going to be flying in the colours of either air force, so that is also not an issue that the IAF has to factor in. The less said about the PLAAF's fifth generation platforms, the better. If Rambha can detect J-20 from several kilometres away, what does that tell anyone about China's technical prowess in that area?

Just remember the dark horse (which has not yet entered the contest) candidate - the F-35 or as Ramana-ji aptly calls it, the Fancy Cornish Hen :) Now that is a game changer in every sense of the word. And if Turkey manages to pull off a S-400 waiver, expect India to get one too. That is easier said than done though. And tremendous concessions will have to come from India's side for that to happen. How much will India bend to taste the Fancy Cornish Hen?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby abhik » 21 Dec 2019 11:40

Indranil wrote:0.26 lakh for 83 Tejas Mk1A. For 1.5 lakh, one can get 479 Tejas Mk1A. Apply economies of scale and probably you can get more. But, leave that aside. What special qualities will this 114 aircraft bring which 4 times the number of LCA's can't?!

Er... Transfer 50% of that 1.5 lakh crores to a foreign power (hafta) and a significant portion of the rest to a large Indian chorporate group?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Nihat » 21 Dec 2019 12:23

I was hoping that with a stronger mandate in 2019 and the rafale non issue firmly put to rest by the courts, that GoI would have the gumption to order another 72 rafale and be done with it. It is on record that a fresh batch of rafale would cost lesser than the ones recently purchased.

I wonder who's interests are being peddled to in this new MRCA competition and how long this circus will go on. My best guess is that between technical evaluations and price selection, it'll be at least 6 years before a contract is signed and as we already know, that is absolutely no guarantee of an aircraft actually flying in.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 21 Dec 2019 12:29

I do think that the 114 order could split between Rafale and Shornet. I believe the GOI will want to shore up as much international support as it can as it tries to cleanup the mess left to it by 70 years of malgovernance.

My guess is that the baksheesh will be spread around generously. Even though there is no real need for the mrca.

France...36 additional rafale, p75i
USA... 57 shornet, p8s, guardians, apache, nasams, naval helos
Russia... Super su30, akula3, fulcrums

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2019 12:44

Nihat wrote:I was hoping that with a stronger mandate in 2019 and the rafale non issue firmly put to rest by the courts, that GoI would have the gumption to order another 72 rafale and be done with it. It is on record that a fresh batch of rafale would cost lesser than the ones recently purchased.

I wonder who's interests are being peddled to in this new MRCA competition and how long this circus will go on. My best guess is that between technical evaluations and price selection, it'll be at least 6 years before a contract is signed and as we already know, that is absolutely no guarantee of an aircraft actually flying in.

They cannot go in for additional Rafales just off the cuff. There is a process that has to be followed. They cannot even cancel the tender, like I earlier advocated, without a valid reason. There is no reason the GOI can provide that will be palatable, the IAF desperately needs fighter aircraft and HAL is moving painfully slow on Tejas production.

The GOI might have had a window of opportunity if they negotiated in the contract for 36 (or 72 as you say) additional Rafales, when they signed the contract for the first batch of 36 Rafales in Sept 2016. But that was not to be. The single engine contest got underway, then the fake Rafale scam came along and now they have to go through the entire re-tendering process again. Otherwise, it will look like Dassault is getting favours (and free money) from the GOI.

If Rafale wins again, it will be ironic. Because - as you say - it will take time before additional Rafales start coming in. What a waste of time that would be. This Make in India program is a disaster for foreign fighter aircraft. Just buy them off the shelf and do not involve HAL. Otherwise, like the Su-30MKI, they will turn out to be more expensive than the exact same aircraft when manufactured in the nation of origin.

Screwdrivergiri of foreign aircraft is not a sound recipe for generating employment, despite what the OEMs and a few on BRF say.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2019 13:09

Cain Marko wrote:I do think that the 114 order could split between Rafale and Shornet. I believe the GOI will want to shore up as much international support as it can as it tries to cleanup the mess left to it by 70 years of malgovernance.

My guess is that the baksheesh will be spread around generously. Even though there is no real need for the mrca.

France...36 additional rafale, p75i
USA... 57 shornet, p8s, guardians, apache, nasams, naval helos
Russia... Super su30, akula3, fulcrums

36 additional Rafales are not coming, as per the Chief himself. It will be 114 shiny phoren toys onlee, again as per the Chief himself.

If Dassault wins the IAF contest, they will clinch the naval contest as well. And same will be equally true for Boeing. If they win the IAF contest, they will bag the naval contest. The GOI will *NOT* the split the deal. Logistically, it makes no sense to do so. The GOI knows it and the services know that as well. Why negotiate with two OEMs, when you can partner with one OEM for both services? One single line to support both the naval and air force requirement. That is what will happen. CDS will bring about big changes and operating the same platform across the services is the aim. They already do that with the Do 228 (Indian Navy, Indian Air Force and Indian Coast Guard) and the HAL Dhruv (Indian Navy, Indian Air Force and Indian Army).

Both offerings - from Dassault and Boeing - are strong. Boeing's plus points are the APG-79 AESA radar, the industrial package (manufacturing, the F414 engine), how much and what tech can be ported over to AMCA, cheaper unit cost, cheaper to operate, etc. Boeing's biggest weak point is its country of origin. Unreliable political partner. Dassault's plus points are the Rafale will already be in service, base infrastructure will already be present, pilot and ground personnel will already be trained, a syllabus will already have been established, how much and what tech can be ported over to AMCA, etc. From an air force perspective, these are all huge plus points. But the Rafale is not perfect. She has her flaws and the IAF knows them well.

The IAF is focusing all her energies on the AMCA. That is where the future lies for the IAF. The Chief mentioned that as well. At this stage, it does not matter who wins - Boeing or Dassault. AMCA is where the real excitement lies.

Unkil will get baksheesh in other forms (like you mentioned above, minus the Shornet). That is assuming they lose the contest. It remains to be seen if the IAF is willing to give Boeing the red rose.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rsatchi » 21 Dec 2019 14:53

Rakesh wrote:...

Rakeshji
'Choti muh Baadi Baath'
Why not just order Rafale for IAF and Hornet for Navy and be done with it.
Of course Hornet means reconfiguring the IAC??? but this way 'Dhono kush' Aur hum bhi Mast mein.!! :lol:
Why this drama of trials??

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ldev » 21 Dec 2019 15:01

I think that the post Balakot air engagement has driven home to the IAF the pivotal role of BVR missile range and the overall effectiveness of the radar/BVR missile range combo in air to air engagements. And in that respect the FA-18E/F is unparalleled. It will be the second US fighter after the F22 and BEFORE the F35 to receive the under development AIM-260 JATM BVR AAM (successor to the AMRAAM whose technical capability has been maxed out in the latest variant) with an in service date of 2022. This is probably because the FA-18 is used by the USN and is more likely than the F35 to have hostile contact with the PLAAF. This missile is being developed specifically to out range the Chinese PL-15 which has a range of ~200 km and is used by the J20. While the AIM-260 may or may not be on offer for the IAF/IN package initially, I am sure that eventually it will be available. And while it is very early to compare the AIM-260 to the Meteor, I think on a purely technological basis there is no doubt that the US has the financial and technology muscle to continue AAM weapon development beyond any other country. By the way, neither the F-15 or F-16/21 will receive the AIM-260 JATM. So the F-21 offer to India should be DOA.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby LakshmanPST » 21 Dec 2019 17:30

If GoI needs a proper justification to cancel MMRCA 2.0, the best thing to do is drag on the process for 3-4 more years before TEDBF is design is finalized... Then they can say that they have an equivalent desi option in TEDBF, cancel MMRCA, buy 2 more squadrons of Rafale as immediate requirement and be done with it...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nam » 21 Dec 2019 18:01

MMRCA 2.0 is kayali poolav.

The process is AON-> DAC approval-> RFP-> trials->price negotiations-> claims of scam -> supreme court order-> CCS approval -> contract signing.

It has not even done AON.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 21 Dec 2019 18:32

Rakesh wrote:36 additional Rafales are not coming, as per the Chief himself. It will be 114 shiny phoren toys onlee, again as per the Chief himself.
....
Unkil will get baksheesh in other forms (like you mentioned above, minus the Shornet). That is assuming they lose the contest. It remains to be seen if the IAF is willing to give Boeing the red rose.

In which case, I think the entire 114 will go to France. The US will likely get other baksheesh, possibly including 56 shornet. But, as you well know, Chiefs can say plenty of things, ultimate decision might be totally different. Case in point - MRCA 1.0

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby chola » 21 Dec 2019 18:45

nam wrote:MMRCA 2.0 is kayali poolav.

The process is AON-> DAC approval-> RFP-> trials->price negotiations-> claims of scam -> supreme court order-> CCS approval -> contract signing.

It has not even done AON.

^^^ I hope it is kayali poolau! My actual fear is it becomes reality and begins taking up real budget. It was about $8B for the 36 Rafales. Just imagine the cost for the 114 if MMRCA 2.0 pans out? We are talking upwards of $25B.

Think that would not impact MWF, TEDBF and maybe even AMCA with our perennially strained budget? Even if there were institution support from the IAF and IN, the crores might not be there by the time those come on line for production.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 21 Dec 2019 18:52

Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2019 20:28

Rakesh wrote:Rakeshji
'Choti muh Baadi Baath'
Why not just order Rafale for IAF and Hornet for Navy and be done with it.
Of course Hornet means reconfiguring the IAC??? but this way 'Dhono kush' Aur hum bhi Mast mein.!! :lol:
Why this drama of trials??

Please refer to my post above (reply to Nihat) as to "why not just order Rafale for IAF and Hornet for Navy and be done with it."

Welcome to the world of Indian Babudom. Everything has to follow a process, including trials. Otherwise, cancel the tender and do nothing. Then the only other politically palatable solution would be to increase the production of the Tejas. Will the IAF bite? Because regardless of whatever discussion we have on BRF, the IAF is going to call the shots on which aircraft joins the fleet. And the only one who can override the IAF is the MoD has to open the purse strings for the purchase. No one on this forum and no one in the GOI is going to tell the IAF what to do. Is the IAF open to cancelling the MRCA tender and focus on Tejas? People's opinion on BRF do not matter, only the IAF's opinion matters.

Hornet does not mean re-configuring the IAC. In fact, only Boeing has made the claim that the Hornet can operate from the upcoming Vikrant and the in-service Vikramaditya. Boeing is claiming no issues on that front. Dassault has not yet (publicly) discussed their solution. Boeing has also said that the F-18 can take off with a significant payload from the upcoming Vikrant and the in-service Vikramaditya. Dassault has also said the same about the Rafale.

So what the IAF is doing now is conducting a condensed set of trials to speed up the process. Trials will be done in 2020 and the report will be handed to the MoD in the same year. This is what will occur.

1) Seasoned IAF test pilots will test all the important parameters. Rafale is already known to the IAF. So these pilots will basically look at what the other competitors do, namely the F-18 and see how it stacks up against the Rafale. From the radar to the engine to the weapons to the sensors, everything will be cross referenced against the Rafale.

2) Then the question that will be asked is ---> what game changer is present on the F-18 (or any other competitor) that necessitates the need for a new type of aircraft to complement the 36 Rafales. There will be areas where the F-18 (or any other competitor) will trump the Rafale and vice versa. But are those areas critical enough to invest already scare resources (and a sputtering economy right now) in not just the aircraft...but everything else that comes with it? You already know the answer to that question :)

It will be Rafale F4 (not the F3R variant that is coming in May 2020) that will be pitted against the F-18 Block III.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2019 20:35

ldev wrote:I think that the post Balakot air engagement has driven home to the IAF the pivotal role of BVR missile range and the overall effectiveness of the radar/BVR missile range combo in air to air engagements. And in that respect the FA-18E/F is unparalleled. It will be the second US fighter after the F22 and BEFORE the F35 to receive the under development AIM-260 JATM BVR AAM (successor to the AMRAAM whose technical capability has been maxed out in the latest variant) with an in service date of 2022. This is probably because the FA-18 is used by the USN and is more likely than the F35 to have hostile contact with the PLAAF. This missile is being developed specifically to out range the Chinese PL-15 which has a range of ~200 km and is used by the J20. While the AIM-260 may or may not be on offer for the IAF/IN package initially, I am sure that eventually it will be available. And while it is very early to compare the AIM-260 to the Meteor, I think on a purely technological basis there is no doubt that the US has the financial and technology muscle to continue AAM weapon development beyond any other country. By the way, neither the F-15 or F-16/21 will receive the AIM-260 JATM. So the F-21 offer to India should be DOA.

India will not get the AIM-260. That is reserved for the USAF.

If the F-18 wins, it will be the AIM-120C7 variant or even the AIM-120D.

After Balakot, I doubt the IAF pilots who successfully blocked the 4 - 5 AIM-120C5 variants are feeling confident enough about the AMRAAM. Those Israeli jammers are world class. The IAF is in love with the Meteor and have publicly said so, on a number of occasions. Then SFDR is in the works and the Astra Mk2 as well. Another factor is whether Boeing and Dassault will allow the Astra Mk1, Astra Mk2 and SFDR to be carried by the F-18 and the Rafale.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2019 20:38

LakshmanPST wrote:If GoI needs a proper justification to cancel MMRCA 2.0, the best thing to do is drag on the process for 3-4 more years before TEDBF is design is finalized... Then they can say that they have an equivalent desi option in TEDBF, cancel MMRCA, buy 2 more squadrons of Rafale as immediate requirement and be done with it...

That is what I hope as well. 57 carrier borne fighters will break the bank and 114 MRCA will make the bank disappear onlee! The navy has reportedly budgeted US $13.3 billion for 57 naval fighters. That is more expensive than the aircraft carrier, these 57 carrier borne fighters will fly off from! :lol:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2019 20:45

Cain Marko wrote:In which case, I think the entire 114 will go to France. The US will likely get other baksheesh, possibly including 56 shornet. But, as you well know, Chiefs can say plenty of things, ultimate decision might be totally different. Case in point - MRCA 1.0

I agree with you on that point. Chiefs say plenty of things only to be later shamed by the Babus in the MoD. Sad really.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 21 Dec 2019 22:48

If IAF wants to buy Rafale or Eurofighter then the Navy order will for sure go to the Hornet. I do not think US will again allow GOI to ignore its offerings. That is unless US offers the F35. I know there are issues about F35 if we buy S400 but then US makes or breaks rules and even changes the rules of engagement when it suits them so do not rule out any of the possibilities.


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