MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ldev » 11 Mar 2020 18:53

Rakesh wrote:The quote you selected states R-27. You were talking about the R-77. Different missile.

Your own words ---> "The bigger question is whether the R-77s were any good."

So please decide which Russian missile it is you want to talk about ---> the R-27 or the R-77?



The bottom line is, does it really matter? We do not know what the missile load out was on the SU30s on February 27. But neither the R-27 nor the R-77 got a lock, assuming that they were both carried that day.

Publicly available online information states that the R-77 development went through a series of fits and starts in the aftermath of the dissolution of the USSR with funds not being available. Although the IAF took delivery of the RVV-AE (export version) in the early 2000s, the Russian Air Force continued only with the R-27s. The question is why? Did their tests indicate that the effective range of the R-77 (RVV-AE) was lower than the brochure/advertised range? Early deployments of the Russian Air Force in Syria did not carry the R-77-1 (domestic version), which was developed later. And clearly also, Manohar Parrikar made an accurate representation when he said in 2018 (well before the Feb 27 clash) that the IAF was outranged. My quote was not accurate as specifically mentioning the R-27 in Mr. Parrikar's statement. Karan M has subsequently given the actual link. So clearly in 2018, the IAF knew that their Russian missiles did not have the range of the AIM-120C5.

Much has been made of the re-order by the IAF of Russian missiles in the aftermath of February 27 and the rhetorical argument that the IAF must be happy with this missile duo otherwise "why would they have ordered more". I can think of 2 answers.

One, while we do not really know the exact variant of the R-27 and the R-77 that were ordered in 2019, Wikipedia at least states that it was the R-27-ER1 & ET1 variants that were delivered (SARH & Infra-red), both with slightly longer ranges than the R & T versions which the IAF presumably had before in their old inventory.

Again, one must assume that the R-77 deliveries made in 2019 were the RVV-SD.

i.e. in response to the IAF's urgent requirement to re-stock and their complaint that they did not get a lock, the Russian response could have been that this time around we are giving you later/better variants of the missiles and these will have better performance And in the short term the IAF does not really have any other option.

The Derby ER integration and order process will take it's time as will ramping up Astra orders. So I would not read much into the ad-hoc order of more Russian missiles.

The IAF chief's interview was last month, well after receipt of the latest R-27 and R-77 missiles in mid 2019 and yet he is clearly in favor of the Astra integration explicitly. And all available indications are that for WVR infra red the IAF wants to go to ASRAAM.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 12 Mar 2020 06:33

Aditya_V wrote: Many forget Pakis lost around 5-6 drones in Feb and Mar 2019. We shot some of them on the Paki side of the border.

Were these A2A kills sirji?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 12 Mar 2020 06:35

Kartik wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Where does the derby er for into this whole thing. In terms of rangeb purely, how does one rate it? Iirc marketing agents were comparing it to meteor earlier...


54 NM or 100 km max range. Dual pulse motor and new software defined RF seeker.

From AW&ST
Thanks Kartik. so would it be fair to say that it is well below the Meteor range of about 150km (Parrikar's quote)?

raghuk wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:IIRC India and Israel have been working already on a uav cheetah for the Indian Navy since 2008. It's still not flown afaik suggesting that such things are not so easy in combat conditions. As such this does not obviate the need for manned 5 gen fighters.

The NRUAV never took off. It has been brought out many times but nothing worth mentioning was ever done. HAL has built a mini autonomous helicopter to get an understanding of the control system. This knowledge is being used to develop the RUAV which is a 100% HAL effort with technical inputs from IIT-K.

Thanks RaghuK - Wikichacha had led me to believe that efforts were ongoing in 2019 as well.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 12 Mar 2020 09:42

ldev wrote:The bottom line is, does it really matter? We do not know what the missile load out was on the SU30s on February 27. But neither the R-27 nor the R-77 got a lock, assuming that they were both carried that day.

So now you are stating that you don't even know what the missile load out was on Feb 27th? Ok :)

Since the R-27 or the R-77 did not get a lock...why did the F-16s not press home the attack, after the first salvo of AMRAAM launches? The AIM-120C5 outranges both the older model variants of the R-27 and R-77. This should have been a cake walk for the PAF, as they had the superior and longer range missile. The whole point is to "successfully" shoot first to ensure a kill. How did that work out exactly for the Pakistan Air Force on Feb 27th? Rather than "fake" a Su-30MKI kill, they could have actually gotten one for real.

How did AIM-120C5 equipped F-16s allow Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman to get that close to a twin seater F-16, then get a successful lock on that F-16 and shoot that bird down with a R-73 CCM? And that too sitting in a MiG-21 Bison! What is the range of the R-73 compared to the AIM-120C5 AMRAAM? Why did the PAF not shoot him down, with a AIM-120C5 AMRAAM, before he came in visually close to a F-16? He got shot down after launching the R-73 from his MiG-21. Why did the PAF allow it come to that?

ldev wrote:So clearly in 2018, the IAF knew that their Russian missiles did not have the range of the AIM-120C5.

And yet the AIM-120C5 did not hit a single Su-30 despite the longer range vis-a-viv the R-27 and the R-77.

When you are outgunned in air combat, you are either shot down or you exit the combat zone (and hope the enemy does not give chase). Neither were the Su-30s (and the Mirage 2000s) shot down and neither did the IAF exit the combat zone. On the contrary, the IAF interceptors stayed right there. And this despite the IAF (and even the PAF!) knowing that the Russian missiles aboard the Su-30MKI did not have the range of the AMRAAM. Even the French MICA does not have the range of the AIM-120C5! But this range deficiency certainly did not stop the IAF from putting an effective wall against the PAF strike force.

When the IAF gets the Meteor equipped Rafale from May 2020, the range advantage will come back in the IAF's favour. But a longer range missile - when viewed in isolation - means nothing. Air combat is an ever-changing cat and mouse game. When one side gets a perceived advantage, the other side will try to negate that advantage. Which is what the IAF skillfully did on Feb 27th. And which is what the PAF will "attempt" to do when the Rafale arrives in India in May 2020. See this tweet below.

https://twitter.com/DefencedotPak/statu ... 48864?s=20 ----> PAF CAS, ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan: ‘Whatever capabilities the Indian Air Force acquires, like the Rafale/Meteor BVR combo, the Pakistan Air Force will match it - the balance has to be maintained. Have no doubt about that.’

That tweet is laughable because they are beggars. Whatever counter they get, it will have to be via baksheesh onlee.

ldev wrote:Much has been made of the re-order by the IAF of Russian missiles in the aftermath of February 27 and the rhetorical argument that the IAF must be happy with this missile duo otherwise "why would they have ordered more". I can think of 2 answers.

One, while we do not really know the exact variant of the R-27 and the R-77 that were ordered in 2019, Wikipedia at least states that it was the R-27-ER1 & ET1 variants that were delivered (SARH & Infra-red), both with slightly longer ranges than the R & T versions which the IAF presumably had before in their old inventory.

Again, one must assume that the R-77 deliveries made in 2019 were the RVV-SD.

i.e. in response to the IAF's urgent requirement to re-stock and their complaint that they did not get a lock, the Russian response could have been that this time around we are giving you later/better variants of the missiles and these will have better performance And in the short term the IAF does not really have any other option.

The Derby ER integration and order process will take it's time as will ramping up Astra orders. So I would not read much into the ad-hoc order of more Russian missiles.

The IAF chief's interview was last month, well after receipt of the latest R-27 and R-77 missiles in mid 2019 and yet he is clearly in favor of the Astra integration explicitly. And all available indications are that for WVR infra red the IAF wants to go to ASRAAM.

I would be wary to put up this argument, if I were you.

Please note the range of the Astra Mk1 vis-a-viv the AIM-120C5. Most sources put the range of the Astra Mk1 at around 80 - 110 km. The range of the AIM-120C5 is 110 km. So depending who you ask, the Mk1 variant falls either woefully short of the AIM-120C5 or just about matches the range of the AIM-120C5. At this rate, the PAF will surely outgun the IAF. Should India dhoti shiver?

The situation is just as bleak with the Israeli I-Derby ER. The missile has a range of only 100 km, as per wiki. And the AIM-120C5 will outrange the missile by a whole 10 km! How can the missile get a lock?

Both the missiles you are advocating for do not give any significant advantage - in range - over the AIM-120C5. They are either short or just match the range of the AMRAAM. How can the IAF get a lock with these missiles, when the PAF will have the upper edge with the AIM-120C5?

And the R-27-ER1 and ET1 variants hovers around the range (but does not exceed) of the AIM-120C5. But since the Russian missiles never actually reach their advertised range (or even work!)....the IAF is doomed onlee!

And why even get ASRAAM? It has a range of only 25 km. IAF planes will be shot out of the sky at such a meagre range.

Range of the missile is just one factor, among many other factors. So what is the counter if the enemy has AIM-120C5? You do not retire Su-30MKI and buy F-21 and/or F-15EX :lol:

In a future air combat zone, a Su-30MKI can carry other equipment (jammers i.e. SAP-518 or the DARE one), a combo of air-to-air missiles (Astra in conjunction with I-Derby ER, AIM-132 ASRAAM, R-77, R-73 or R-27ER1/ET1) which in turn is supported by other assets (Netra and/or Phalcon) and other combat aircraft (Mirage 2000I with MICA or Rafale with Meteor or Tejas with Astra Mk2 or MiG-29UPG with R-77, R-73 or R-27ER1/ET1), etc, etc, etc. Thus the options are endless. It makes sense to diversify, as it leaves the enemy guessing as to what is coming and where it is coming from. Countering all the possibilities (which is not possible anyway!) sucks up huge resources and can Pakistan afford that?

A lot of debriefing has occurred at Sargodha, over the performance of the AIM-120C5 vis-a-viv the SAP-518 jammer. And the PAF will be working on some counter, either via equipment acquisition or change in tactics. They have already confirmed that they are gaming (and practising) similar scenarios like Operation Swift Retort. And the IAF is doing the same as well. Rafale will be a game changer for the IAF and Tejas (and her subsequent variants) will be revolutionary. MiG-29UPG and Mirage 2000I will be equally effective. I am waiting for the Super Sukhoi upgrade to commence, as that will make the Rambha deadly.

Moral of the Story - The cat-and-mouse game in full effect.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 12 Mar 2020 09:48

deejay wrote:
RKumar wrote:...

USA is pushing really hard and the moment they offer F-35, mark my world we will order those. And they will offer with a riddle, buy one of the older generation platforms. So there will be 5 sources and each offering 2 types - more or less around 10 types. Add the unmanned types, so we will see the tribes growing too fast and too far.

If my wishes were horses, I would like MoD to consolidate to fewer types as much possible and stick with the local content even if we can add them slowly.


Yes. US is pushing very hard for F35. Yet it will have on its inventory for at least near future - F16s, F18s, F15s, F22s, A10s in good nos. I am not discussing the bomber fleet.

Plus US and us is not a good comparison metric. China and us is a good comparison.



A little more than a third of the US's strike fighter force resides in the Department of the Navy which has now phased out the Classic Hornet from carrier operations, has relatively young Super Hornet's (outside the first couple of hundred aircraft that have seen high utilization) etc. However given the overall size of the force, the US strike fighter community needs about 75-80 new aircraft a year just to maintain its current force structure given aircraft age, but more importantly, utilization and fleet health. So the reality is that despite buying 90+ F-35's a year right now, and maintaining a fleet of 10+ year old F-22A's, the US will only be able to modernize about 50% of its 4th generation fighter fleet with 5GFA before 6GFA is available at which time they'll likely fielding that family of systems. Also, some of these won't be replaced by fighters at all. The RPA fleet 2.0 will take over some of those missions yet others will go to ISR etc. The Strike Fighter force in the US is destined to shrink given the realities of pivoting to confront the Chinese threat and build up.

The remaining 50% will be modernized 4+ generation aircraft like the Super Hornet Block II and III (some Block I's will be retired while others upgraded to II/III), F-15 EX and upgraded F-16's with the ANG/Res That is just the reality of the bow wave that is caused by cold-war procurement of F-16's for the most part. Small fleets of older aircraft are the worst as far as maintaining readiness and upgrades are concerned so expect most small fleets in the USAF or USN to disappear just like the F-117 went away, and other cold war legacy EW/ISR fleets have or will. B-2's will likely be retired (or retirement attempted) as soon as the B-21 becomes nuclear capable, and the F-22A will likely go as soon as 6GFA becomes operational.

There is no "push" for the F-35 and none have been offered or any official US movement to obtain the necessary permissions to begin that process. Even Lockheed has not really pushed for it to be the GOTUS offering into the MMRCA competition. The F-35 option is not feasible in the short-medium term. One of the first signs of this happening is GOTUS reaching out to get SIMAF clearances for any IAF/MOD offer. Those things won't happen without most following this from a policy perspective knowing about it. There is no secret deal being offered and discussed and there is very little room in the F-35 program to allow for this given how tightly it is controlled by Congress and the implications of antagonizing the Congress given its current export clearance process. ALL G2G F-35 deals so far have involved multiple levels of technical, political and bureaucratic exchanges and have been transparent and out in the open. Take Israel, Singapore, Japan, Poland or any other such deal as an example. There have been open engagement and a process followed.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Roop » 12 Mar 2020 10:43

Aditya_V wrote:Many forget Pakis lost around 5-6 drones in Feb and Mar 2019. We shot some of them on the Paki side of the border.


Hmm, interesting! I didn't know this (i.e. the Paki side thing).

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Mar 2020 11:44

See this reports, the Drone was shot down over Fort Abbas area in Pakistan, one more confirmation PAF had tried a Diversionary intrusion in Sri Ganga Nangar Sector on 27- Feb -19

https://theprint.in/defence/pakistani-drone-violates-indian-air-space-along-international-border-shot-down-by-iaf/201207/

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby RKumar » 12 Mar 2020 14:46

^^
Maybe my writing skill are not best, but I never stated they are pushing hard for F-35.

Let me rephrase it - US is pushing hard India to buy F-15/16/21 and what not from the older generation. India will consider only fifth-gen fighter, the moment US offers F-35 - India will get interested. But then USA will put a riddle - US will offer F-35 only if India buys 4th gen fighter of minimum x amount. Catch-22 moment for India.

I go back to the cave to cool down myself and let the experts discuss & deal with it.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Pratyush » 12 Mar 2020 17:58

RKumar wrote:^^
Maybe my writing skill are not best, but I never stated they are pushing hard for F-35.

Let me rephrase it - US is pushing hard India to buy F-15/16/21 and what not from the older generation. India will consider only fifth-gen fighter, the moment US offers F-35 - India will get interested. But then USA will put a riddle - US will offer F-35 only if India buys 4th gen fighter of minimum x amount. Catch-22 moment for India.

I go back to the cave to cool down myself and let the experts discuss & deal with it.



The us pushing for the sale of previous generation Jet as a precondition for the sale of f35 makes little sense to me. If the US really wants to sell F 35. Then they can easily sell 300 to 400 units to IAF over the next 20 years. If the political will is in Washington. Any 4th generation fighter sale only reduces the number of F 35 that can be sold to India.


Unless the IAF authorised strength goes up substantially along with the budget allocation.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 12 Mar 2020 21:42

RKumar wrote:Let me rephrase it - US is pushing hard India to buy F-15/16/21 and what not from the older generation. India will consider only fifth-gen fighter, the moment US offers F-35 - India will get interested. But then USA will put a riddle - US will offer F-35 only if India buys 4th gen fighter of minimum x amount. Catch-22 moment for India.


I don't think it works this way or would be in anyone's interest to go through the process you describe. There is an RFI floated by the IAF/MOD and as per that, the US industry has begun talking with potential partners in anticipation of their offers to the final RFP. Lockheed is all in with the F-21. Boeing likewise is offering its two aircraft. There has been no effort on part of LM to work the GOTUS or Congress to get to offer the F-35 for this. The arrangement you describe would also be quite unusual and of no benefit to anyone concerned. You cannot meet 5th generation requirements by offering 4 generation aircraft and no such deals, with clubbing 4th and 5th gen. have been offered to anyone..and the IAF/MOD won't be an exception. The S-400 deal effectively rules out the F-35 in the near term. In the long term, it would be based on what the IAF/MOD demand and how that request flows. Lockheed basically does not have permission to pursue the F-35 via a Direct Commercial Sale route given its Congressional blanket clearances. So anything on the program will have to be G2G and via the process that is laid out, transparent, and followed on other FMS cases.

Rakesh, feel free to move this there..I just thought this would be more appropriate since there is no actual evidence of any movement to consider, or offer the F-35 for the MMRCA 2.0 requirements.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 12 Mar 2020 21:45

I have moved all the relevant posts. Thank you brar.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ranjan.rao » 13 Mar 2020 01:01

RKumar wrote:^^
Maybe my writing skill are not best, but I never stated they are pushing hard for F-35.

Let me rephrase it - US is pushing hard India to buy F-15/16/21 and what not from the older generation. India will consider only fifth-gen fighter, the moment US offers F-35 - India will get interested. But then USA will put a riddle - US will offer F-35 only if India buys 4th gen fighter of minimum x amount. Catch-22 moment for India.

I go back to the cave to cool down myself and let the experts discuss & deal with it.

I am not an expert but I dont think US operates the way Russia did. Our mig 23 purchase was tied up to either of Mig 27 or Mig 29. Brar has already pointed out.
Our fighter ecosystem is anyways going to be increasingly entangled with USA with Tejas forming around 150 numbers in near term. (not counting MWF). That entanglement is not going down with more Tejas, NLCA, apache and P8is

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Barath » 27 Mar 2020 19:32

brar_w wrote:
no such deals, with clubbing 4th and 5th gen. have been offered to anyone..and the IAF/MOD won't be an exception. The S-400 deal effectively rules out the F-35 in the near term. ..I just thought this would be more appropriate since there is no actual evidence of any movement to consider, or offer the F-35 for the MMRCA 2.0 requirements.


100% agree with your conclusion. Just want to mention that F35 and S400 being mutually exclusive is not an absolute

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-s ... on-2019-10

Mind you, I'd be hard pressed to come up with an offer or circumstance whereby the US would be fine with S400 and F35 in india in the near term

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 27 Mar 2020 19:52

Barath wrote:
brar_w wrote:
no such deals, with clubbing 4th and 5th gen. have been offered to anyone..and the IAF/MOD won't be an exception. The S-400 deal effectively rules out the F-35 in the near term. ..I just thought this would be more appropriate since there is no actual evidence of any movement to consider, or offer the F-35 for the MMRCA 2.0 requirements.


100% agree with your conclusion. Just want to mention that F35 and S400 being mutually exclusive is not an absolute

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-s ... on-2019-10

Mind you, I'd be hard pressed to come up with an offer or circumstance whereby the US would be fine with S400 and F35 in india in the near term


You can ignore that article. What Trump wants or may want isn’t worth a lot when it comes to this matter. If it was entirely up to him the entire deal may not even have been cancelled in the first place. Congress has the biggest say in this matter as does the Pentagon. S400/F35 export policy isn’t a hill any White House is going to be willing to die on given how insignificant a policy disagreement it is in the broader scheme of things.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2020 05:08

This one is a classic! Tweet are dated 06 April 2020.

https://twitter.com/Defeatcorona1/statu ... 99616?s=20 ---> Sir, which fighter jet is most likely to be selected for MMRCA deal? Sir, please answer.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12470 ... 21510?s=20 ----> Probables. In sequence...

* Tejas Mk-2
* AMCA/NAMCA
* Twin-Engine (ORCA/TEDBF)

End of list.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 09 Apr 2020 18:45

The highlighted red text is interesting. How insistent will be the IAF be on Meteor for MMRCA?

I know apart from Rafale, the Typhoon can carry the Meteor and so does the Gripen E.

https://twitter.com/Rakesh_Banik/status ... 13026?s=20 ---> Sir, following Indian defence since 2003. Will be glad if u reply the following:

1) Will so many LCA derivatives plans divert funds from crucial AMCA/UCAV projects?
2) With access to the best techs in the world why IAF could not get SDR or a good BVR since 2010?

Tweet below is in response to tweet above ^^^

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12480 ... 51680?s=20 --->

1. Funds for AMCA coming in slowly. Variants of LCA natural & progressive. In a different class, not clashing with AMCA.

2. SDR under flight-testing on Su-30, Jag, ALH etc. LCA Mk-1A & others lined up. 500 bought.

3. Meteor is linked to MMRCA. MICA integrated. RVV-SD in plans.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 09 Apr 2020 19:02

Rakesh wrote:The highlighted red text is interesting. How insistent will be the IAF be on Meteor for MMRCA?


Interesting observation. If it is Meteor specific then the Eurofigther (that can leverage the dual-data link) followed by the Rafale will claim advantage (Gripen too but I doubt it will be a very serious contender). If it is Longer Range Weapon specific, then Boeing could always claim that its F-18E/F is the threshold platform for the AIM-260 which will enter service in 2-2.5 years time (probably ahead of any decision taken by the MOD) and most likely offer things the Meteor doesn't have. But then questions remain whether it will be offered for export (and if so when) and it might just be easier for Boeing to offer Meteor integration instead. Lockheed won't have the chance as the F-16 will likely never get the AIM-260.

I do question whether Meteor would be linked to the MMRCA. If anything, ASTRA integration should be linked to it. That would make quite a bit more sense.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby sankum » 09 Apr 2020 19:38

Which means either there will be 114 nos Rafale in MMRCA 2.0 or 36 Rafale+ 78 ORCA.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nash » 09 Apr 2020 19:55

What if we ask Dassault to expand their manufacturing facility in India . Initial order will be 36-54 Rafale and then 50-60 TEDBF for Navy and may be 2-3 sqd of ORCA for IAF.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 09 Apr 2020 20:30

brar_w wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The highlighted red text is interesting. How insistent will be the IAF be on Meteor for MMRCA?

Interesting observation. If it is Meteor specific then the Eurofigther (that can leverage the dual-data link) followed by the Rafale will claim advantage (Gripen too but I doubt it will be a very serious contender). If it is Longer Range Weapon specific, then Boeing could always claim that its F-18E/F is the threshold platform for the AIM-260 which will enter service in 2-2.5 years time (probably ahead of any decision taken by the MOD) and most likely offer things the Meteor doesn't have. But then questions remain whether it will be offered for export (and if so when) and it might just be easier for Boeing to offer Meteor integration instead. Lockheed won't have the chance as the F-16 will likely never get the AIM-260.

The Rafale F3R variant - which India is getting - does not have a two-way data link. I am not sure if the F4 variant will have it.

The Gripen E does have a dual data link... ---> https://saab.com/gripen/news/blog/gripe ... the-world/

....as does the Eurofighter Typhoon ---> https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/s ... er-typhoon

For folks who want to know more on the advantages of one-way versus two-way data link, go here ---> http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28184

Brar will likely have more detailed info on this topic. Please share saar, if you have. I got the above from a google search.

The only American jet I know that can carry the Meteor is the F-35, but that plane will likely not come. So as brar said, Boeing will have to integrate Meteor on to the F-18E/F, if the IAF is insistent on the Meteor BVRAAM.

brar_w wrote:I do question whether Meteor would be linked to the MMRCA. If anything, ASTRA integration should be linked to it. That would make quite a bit more sense.

I believe the Mk2 variant of the Astra will have a range similar (or greater) than the Mk1 variant.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 09 Apr 2020 20:31

sankum wrote:Which means either there will be 114 nos Rafale in MMRCA 2.0 or 36 Rafale+ 78 ORCA.

I like the latter scenario much better that the first scenario. I wish that onlee happens.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Apr 2020 20:38

Cain Marko wrote:
Aditya_V wrote: Many forget Pakis lost around 5-6 drones in Feb and Mar 2019. We shot some of them on the Paki side of the border.

Were these A2A kills sirji?


Sorry I missed this question, Atleast 2-3 were brought down by A2A missiles, with 1 specific case in Rajastan- I think it was shot down Paki side of the Border near Fort Abbas area brought down by SU-30 launched missile, it was around 5 Mar 19

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 09 Apr 2020 22:11

Rakesh wrote:For folks who want to know more on the advantages of one-way versus two-way data link, go here ---> http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28184

Brar will likely have more detailed info on this topic. Please share saar, if you have. I got the above from a google search.


It is very difficult to talk about this topic without specifics as data-links vary in performance significantly as does the ability of the missile and platform to process data being shared via them. One can't assume all data-links are the same both in terms of the technological solution adopted, and the trade offs made. Right now, even the most cutting edge two-way data linked A2A weapons are only scratching the surface of what is possible because the missiles that carried them are architectured based on 1980's/90s ideas and technologies so they offer only an incremental capability boost. They also have limited performance to fully make use of the concept of employment. This will change when you begin to see more shared apertures on these weapons and they acquire the capability to fully utilize this back and forth exchange of data. This and their ability to considerably modify their end-game performance based on this increase flow of information.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Ganesh_S » 13 Apr 2020 20:40

Saab Gripen E Walkaround at the Saab factory at Linköping
https://youtu.be/mfZvwtdlYy8

At around 25 mins discussion regarding cooling for wing tip mounted jamming pod can be heard. guess its common across all 4 gen platforms?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Apr 2020 05:16

MRCA bye-bye...

Amid COVID-19 situation, Defence forces asked to put on hold their acquisition processes
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 423124935/

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Apr 2020 05:31

I know what corporate speak for "spending more time with family" actually means :)

Prominent Indian-American defence expert Vivek Lall part ways with Lockheed Martin
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 290810.cms
22 April 2020

Vivek Lall, a prominent Indian-American aerospace and defence expert, who played key roles in some of the major defence deals between India and the US, has resigned from Lockheed Martin "to spend more time with family". Lall, 50, is currently posted as vice president of Aeronautics Strategy and Business Development at Lockheed Martin, an American security and aerospace giant. The company on Tuesday confirmed that Lall is leaving the company. "We would like to extend our sincere appreciation to Dr Vivek Lall for representing Lockheed Martin and strengthening our commitment to international partners," a spokesperson of Lockheed Martin told . "We thank Vivek for his thought leadership and the many contributions he made to our team. We wish Vivek and his family all the best," the spokesperson said.

Known as the industry architect of US-India defence relationship because of his involvement in major defence deals between the two countries, Lall expressed his "utmost gratitude" to Lockheed Martin for the unique opportunity to lead their aeronautics strategy and business development activities in international markets, including India. "I thank them for understanding my decision to spend more time with my family," Lall told. "Lockheed Martin is truly shaping the future with world-leading advanced technologies and customer solutions. I firmly believe the F-21 is the best solution for India's national security, Make in India industry partnerships advancing indigenous manufacturing, and India's strategic relationship with the US," he said.

Lall, who was born in Jakarta, the Indonesian capital, for over a decade has been instrumental in major US-India defence deals worth around USD $18 billion. The latest was the procurement of 24 MH-60R multi-role helicopters from Lockheed Martin for the Indian Navy. The USD $2.6 billion agreement was signed during President Donald Trump's visit to India in February. In 2017, Lall was the Chief Executive of Strategic Development at General Atomics during which he played a key role in the path breaking agreement by the White House to release category-1 unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) to India, a non-NATO country. The UAVs that can carry missiles fall under the category-1 classification. Lall in his capacity as vice-president and India country head for Boeing Defence Space and Security in late 2000 was also instrumental in several multi-billion bilateral defence deals.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby uskumar » 24 Apr 2020 15:09

Rakesh wrote:I know what corporate speak for "spending more time with family" actually means :)

Prominent Indian-American defence expert Vivek Lall part ways with Lockheed Martin
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 290810.cms

I think everyone understands that with corona induced economic crisis, it is going to be unrealistic that there will be any big acquisition in the next 2 or 3 years. So No MMRCA anytime soon.

BTW i dont understand why MNCs believe that putting an Indian at head of company will make it easier to deal with Indian gov. MNCs like Vodafone, Mastercard and now LM have all tried it with very limited success.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Apr 2020 15:33

I hope this is the end of this show

1) Sign the Engine contracts with GE for 404, 414 and 414 EPE
2) Order LCA Mk1A and more Mk1
3) Go full steam ahead on MWF, TEDBF and AMCA
4) Order 36 Rafale
5) Order 60 SU 30 to built by HAL at 12 per year with Upgrades AESA radar, MAWS etc.

and close this MRCA tamasha

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 24 Apr 2020 19:03

Aditya_V wrote:4) Order 36 Rafale
5) Order 60 SU 30 to built by HAL at 12 per year with Upgrades AESA radar, MAWS etc.

Unlikely to happen in the next year or perhaps two now thanks to covid-19 and the resulting economic downturn. 60 more Su-30's were never on the cards anyway.


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby arvin » 24 Apr 2020 20:26

Aditya_V wrote:HAL has been pushing for it, since production lines will end by Mar 2021, given the ecosystem it will most probably go through

I think even Lockheed has seen the writing in the wall.

Or should it be writing in the lall :mrgreen:
LM and others may have received opphicial letter about RIP of this tender. (RFI-,RFP-RIP)

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Apr 2020 23:28

And the butt hurt starts....

https://twitter.com/SAURAVSEN1/status/1 ... 17184?s=20 ---> Lockheed pretty much knows India is not buying 'F21' as it just doesn't fit the vision the IAF has currently.

https://twitter.com/CChristineFair/stat ... 54915?s=20 ----> Obviously, India doesn't need an MMRCA purchase [checks notes] because a Bison is clearly adequate for slaying Falcons. Why waste the paise when there are so many 0.303s that can be bought instead?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:roll: Such amazing clarity of thought! WOW!

https://twitter.com/DFI_Sancho/status/1 ... 27297?s=20 ---> MMRCA is not a drama, but a necessity to gain a 'useful' number of 'capable' fighters and invaluable techs as well as know how needed for AMCA. I don't think it will happen anymore under this govt, but it's certainly a major loss for India and can't be countered by off the shelf Rafales in low numbers, MKI upgrades let alone Tejas versions. IAF was one of the prime forces in the region, with planned capability and number increase to keep up even with China on our eastern borders. Now all we try is desperately to stay on equal terms to Pak.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Apr 2020 23:30

https://twitter.com/jamie_aviacom/statu ... 7240092673 ---> Saab has revealed a new X-band AESA fighter radar that builds on its own PS-05/A family in the Gripen and leverages Gallium Nitride technology - it's real and it was test flown in early April. The radar project is separate to the Leonardo Raven in the Gripen E.

Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nash » 24 Apr 2020 23:48

Rakesh wrote:MRCA bye-bye...

Amid COVID-19 situation, Defence forces asked to put on hold their acquisition processes
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 423124935/


What are the chances if it affect Mk1A process, although only CCS approval is required.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 29 Apr 2020 00:18

Saab AESA trial offers Gripen C/D users new upgrade path

Saab has begun promoting an active electronically scanned array (AESA) antenna for its PS-05/A fighter radar, offering an upgrade option for operators of its Gripen C/D, and other legacy types.

During a roughly 90min debut flight aboard a Gripen D test aircraft conducted from the Swedish company’s Linkoping site on 8 April, the AESA sensor “collected data while detecting and tracking objects”, Saab says.

Anders Carp, head of the company’s aeronautics business area, describes these as having been “targets of opportunity” such as general aviation aircraft, due to a lack of commercial airliner activity during the coronavirus crisis.

“We had a very successful first flight, both in terms of capability and stability,” Carp says.

Future tests, to be conducted following data validation from the sensor’s airborne debut, will be expanded to incorporate “fighter targets”, he notes. In all, around 15 flights are planned over a period of three to four months.

Integration of the AESA array – which features more than 500 gallium nitride transmit/receive modules – required no alteration to the Gripen’s power or cooling provision, Carp says. “We’re just changing the array itself, and using exactly the same back-end as the [PS-05/A] Mk4” with some software updates, he notes.

“We have the possibility now to get the full radar range to use [MBDA’s] Meteor or similar [air-to-air] missiles,” Carp notes of the enhancement.

...


This is the same Saab GaN AESA radar that was offered for the Tejas Mk1A upgrade. The bolded part implies that the Gripen C/D's mechanically scanned array PS-05/A Mk4 radar did not have the ability to use the Meteor missile to it's full range.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 30 Apr 2020 22:24

Parts of defence budget may be slashed by 40%, may save Centre Rs 80,000 crore
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2020/04/ ... ashed.html

The official ascribed the major spending cuts to a “major rejig of the government’s spending priorities” as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic. “The government has been allocating only 0.3 per cent of the GDP for expenditure on health. If more has to be spent on health, on agriculture and on reviving the economy, lower priority sectors like defence will have to take a hit,” she said.

On a day when the authoritative Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) named India the world’s third largest defence spender, the official stressed that overseas procurement of foreign weaponry would have to make way for indigenous equipment to boost the local defence industry.

We need to defer weapons imports so that we push money into our own economy, not into other countries’ economies. The import contracts we have already signed can be discharged, but new contracts must be with domestic producers,” stated the MoD official.

Defer New Imports = MMRCA

Import Contracts Already Signed = Rafale

New Contracts to Sign = Desi Maal

Go TEJAS! This is your moment!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 01 May 2020 04:46

MRCA is as good as dead now, with looming budget cuts and the emphasis on keeping the money within the Indian economy. What was being kept alive on drip feed is now likely to be buried. There is simply no way that a $15-20 billion contract with a foreign firm for 110 MRCAs will be feasible anymore. Maybe 3-4 years down the line when the economy recovers, we'll see 36 more Rafales being ordered and then it's MWF and AMCA. Possibly TEDBF and ORCA as well.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 01 May 2020 07:41

If this MRCA is dead and domestic Fighters are indeed given priority it will make very glad.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby vimal » 01 May 2020 09:50

Meanwhile we import Aks from russkies.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby arvin » 01 May 2020 09:54

Good out of the box thinking to order second hand Mig 29s on top of 36 + 36 rafale to close the numbers.
As a consolation to LM, for putting so much efforts in hawking the F16 to IAF, including efforts to derail the LCA, I suggest we also buy 3 second hand F16 from countries retiring it to constitute a enemy aggresor squadron. Would be useful in evaluating paki mindset tactics like firing AMRAAM's at dmax. LM will also be happy to see F16 in IAF colours.


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