MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby abhik » 12 May 2020 21:13

^^^
IMO folks have spent a little too much time ogling at Rafale's brochures, I'm yet to understand what unobtanium tech it has. And anyway we are not getting any "ToT" for it.

Added: The full scale of MRCA v1.5 (i.e. 36 Rafale) boondoggle will become very apparent with in the next 10 years i think.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 12 May 2020 21:26

abhik wrote:^^^
IMO folks have spent a little too much time ogling at Rafale's brochures, I'm yet to understand what unobtanium tech it has. And anyway we are not getting any "ToT" for it.

Added: The full scale of MRCA v1.5 (i.e. 36 Rafale) boondoggle will become very apparent with in the next 10 years i think.

Please use quotes when replying to someone's post. Easier to follow the flow of discussion. Please edit your post.

There was never any ToT on the Rafale. There was only going to be ToP (Transfer of Production). That stipulation was there in MMRCA 1.0, in the SEF contest, but not in the 36 Rafale contract. No manufacturer is going to hand us their crown jewels (Single Crystal Blade, GaN foundry, etc).

ToT is an erroneous term fabricated by the MoD in North Block to publish in their annual brochure the stellar work the Indian aviation industry is doing. India licensed produced the MiG-21, the MiG-27, the Su-30MKI, the Jaguar, etc. What has India learned from ToP? A Su-30MKI made in India costs more than getting it from Russia. But publishing in the annual MoD achievement brochure - about Rambha production - makes good press.

A few years back, the Babus claimed that the AL-31FP turbofan is now being produced from the raw material stage. If so, why has Kaveri not achieved success? There is a world of a difference between production and manufacturing.

MMRCA 2.0 will be the same story, despite the few on BRF who claim that purchasing an American bird (F-15, F-16 or F-18) will magically transform India's aviation industry. These folks are pulling the same stunt that the OEMs pull on the MoD in North Block.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 12 May 2020 21:34

What India has learnt from the Tejas program (~35 aircraft to date) is far more valuable than license producing the hundreds of MiG-21s, MiG-27s, Su-30MKIs and Jaguars.

And the Tejas program will be far more valuable than license producing 114 F-21s or F-15EX or F-18E/F or Rafale or Eurofighter or Gripen E or MiG-35 or Su-35.

There is a world of a difference between production (screwdrivergiri) and manufacturing (the Tejas program). How could Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2, TEDBF, ORCA, TEJEX exist if there was no Tejas TD (Technology Demonstrator)?

It is the Tejas program that causes so much takleef to the few on BRF who argue for MMRCA contract. Some gems from their previous posts over the years;

* Not selecting an American bird in the MMRCA contest will result in shutting down all the Joint Working Committees (i.e. JETJWG) between India and the US.
* Tejas was a valiant effort, but the program should be shut down and invest energies directly to the AMCA program.
* Go in for the cheapest and widely produced fourth generation fighter i.e. F-16.
* Purchasing F-16 is India's down payment for engine tech from the US.
* What will Tejas do against PAF F-16s or against Chinese J-20s?
* Tejas Mk2 will never come.

The last one causes the greatest burnol and heartburn. Arrival of Mk2 will spell the end of MMRCA 2.0

When one strategy fails, then switch-and-bait to another ---> American Exceptionalism, Job Creation, American Industry, Rolling other sectors of the Economy, Strategic Alignment with America, Chinese Threat....the list goes on. Have seen it all.

And heaven forbid, if you ask these Tier 1 industry experts on BRF any probing questions. You will be labelled as being dense and narrow minded. Salvation for India's aviation industry can only come from America. We SDRE Indians obviously cannot do it ourselves.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 May 2020 22:05

^^i have lost count of which time i am seeing such post in my brf lifetime....the only good thing that gives me peace is everytime the case for tejas gets stronger...this time it is much stronger than the 2008 case when the MMRCA saga was in full flow....as i have said earlier that it is like an ekta kapoor serial which refuses to end...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 12 May 2020 23:41

Totally agree with Rakesh 's views.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nam » 13 May 2020 00:19

Larry Walker wrote:Other way round. I am saying our technology and manufacturing capabilities are at par with that of F-21, but we have some distance to cover to come upto Rafale stds. Hence the comparision that money spent in buying a couple of squadrons of F-21 types if invested in domestic RnD will give us capability to manufacture that level of aircrafts.


The thing is, if LCA is build with absolutely no removable panels, it will look super smooth, like plastic. The reason being you just need to create a single piece of composite structure, with no absolutely no rivets on the surface.

Needless to say this is not a practical proposition. Rafale lose super smooth because 1) they have managed to reduce the number of access panel 2) they do lot of surface smoothing by hand before every sortie.

The first is a design issue, which manufacturing cannot solve. Second one is a maintenance process of using low RCS surface paint.

Not saying we cannot learn anything from Rafale production, but we tend to think smooth finish is due to some high end manufacturing, which we SDRE cannot create.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 13 May 2020 07:37

^^^
From Broadsword archives ...

29 December 2013
“ ... Now we will implement absolute standardisation, with identical components, assemblies and panels,” explains Sridharan.

This is being done with laser scanners that ensure that a number of key points (called “locators”) on each aircraft being built is exactly where it should be. By measuring with the laser, it is ensured that the locator is within 80 microns, i.e. about one-tenth of a millimetre, of where it should be. These are international standards, used by companies like Boeing.”

1 October 2014
“On an earlier visit to the HAL’s new production line, Business Standard learned that Tejas production tolerances are as tight as 0.08 millimetres; and 0.2 millimetres for contoured (curved) parts.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Khalsa » 13 May 2020 15:53

Rakesh wrote:What India has learnt from the Tejas program (~35 aircraft to date) is far more valuable than license producing the hundreds of MiG-21s, MiG-27s, Su-30MKIs and Jaguars.


Rakesh wrote:How could Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2, TEDBF, ORCA, TEJEX exist if there was no Tejas TD (Technology Demonstrator)?


Rakesh wrote:We SDRE Indians obviously cannot do it ourselves.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 13 May 2020 19:30

One task that will save a lot of time.Select the engine for the AMCA.Evaluate 3 western,US,UK,French and one Ru engine in depth. It will have to come with TVC too. One must not hesitate to do some redesigning of the AMCA so that it has apart from stealth features, both powerful enough engines and a worthwhile package of internal weaponry. Otherwise,a $75-80M AMCA is a poorer bargainthan a $100M heavyweight stealth fighter such as the SU-57 if it can carry double AMCA's payload.Plus a heavy stealth fighter will also have a larger better radar,more endurance and combat radius withoutrefuelling.

Time to also examine the option of an SE LCA with better stealth.If we can pull it off,it will be a world beater.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 13 May 2020 20:43

Link sent to me by a dear friend.

https://twitter.com/thedewline/status/1 ... 67616?s=21 ---> In-flight software updates? That would be quite impressive.

"The end goal is for future F-16 software updates to be released on-demand and received in-flight without having to land."

Software innovations makes F-16 more capable
https://www.eglin.af.mil/News/Article-D ... e-capable/
29 April 2020

Link above is from an official USAF website. So not fake.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 13 May 2020 20:44

^^^^^
Some of the twitter responses to the tweet and link above....some are hilarious!!

https://twitter.com/Satcom_Guru/status/ ... 96576?s=20 ---> Software packages have to secured. Unbundling will likely need to be done while online. Software delivery, or staging, can be done whenever bandwidth is available. Executable software updates are usually restricted to be on-ground only. Configurable data can be changed in-flight.

https://twitter.com/aerohistorian/statu ... 01986?s=20 ---> I’m trying to imagine what software update would enable such impressive capability increase that needing to install it immediately inflight outweighs the obvious risk of crashing due to a bug or faulty installation.

https://twitter.com/SteveDaly15/status/ ... 88704?s=20 ---> Threat library for the EW system, and possible operating modes. Weapons employment parameters, and maybe evasion tactics guidance on the HUD. I can see several places updates, on the fly (sorry), could be useful.

https://twitter.com/Marc_Topaz/status/1 ... 26565?s=20 ---> And an even bigger vulnerability in that case. At least in a piloted aircraft, the pilot could sense that something isn't functioning correctly, even if it's not crashing, and shut that system off. A truly autonomous aircraft would blindly follow the new software.

https://twitter.com/Jeb_Hoge/status/126 ... 48069?s=20 ---> "Stick's shaking!"

"Oh, we enabled haptic feedback by default. Do you like it?"

https://twitter.com/darren_olivier/stat ... 46208?s=20 ---> "Crashed? What do you mean it crashed? Are you talking about the update or the plane?"

https://twitter.com/DrChrisCombs/status ... 02400?s=20 ---> There’s absolutely no way this could go wrong.....

Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_P » 13 May 2020 21:45

:rotfl:

And what of the Paki F16s admiral saab... they will probably get pirated versions of the software update.. imagine the PAF abdul when he suddenly sees his screen change from angrezi to mandarin characters :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 14 May 2020 18:12

^^^
It has to be limited in scope this software update during flight :wink:

Updating the Threat library database for the EW system would be one of them. Friendly EW/ELINT sends in new threat signatures it picked up to other aircrafts in the theater.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 May 2020 19:20

Manish_P wrote::rotfl:

And what of the Paki F16s admiral saab... they will probably get pirated versions of the software update.. imagine the PAF abdul when he suddenly sees his screen change from angrezi to mandarin characters :mrgreen:

has Lockheed martin has started mandarin language support in light of future pakistani requirements? there used to be a joke many years back that independence day movie scene of virus update was fake because there was no adobe/windows update during that 1-2 min

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ashishvikas » 14 May 2020 20:18

India Seeks Local Warplanes as Overseas Purchase Plan Stalls
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti ... der-stalls
14 May 2020

India plans to switch to locally-made fighter jets, two years after asking global companies to submit proposals to supply 114 combat aircraft in the world’s biggest warplane contract.

“The Indian Air Force is switching that to the LCA,” Rawat said, when asked about the global tender for jets. “The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good.”

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Indranil » 14 May 2020 20:48

Aaj jaakar mere kalejo ko thandak mili hai. Peace, at last.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nash » 14 May 2020 20:56

So good to hear that from CDS Rawat. Now MMRCA is very much cancelled, why not order addition 20-40 Mk1 and 40-60 Mk1A so that HAL can ramp up the production to 20+.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 14 May 2020 21:16

YES!!!!!!! Mera Bharat Mahan!!!!!!
YES!!!!!!! Mera Bharat Mahan!!!!!!
YES!!!!!!! Mera Bharat Mahan!!!!!!

Arey bhai log, someone please show me how to increase the above text to as big as it can get on this forum software.

Mods, please edit my post if you know how.
Last edited by Indranil on 14 May 2020 21:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Bharadwaj » 14 May 2020 21:17

I honestly did not think I will live to see this day (I am not exactly old).

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 14 May 2020 21:18

Great day for the country Bharadwaj.

Expect to see lots of Rhona-Dhona on BRF today from the Tier 1 industry experts.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 May 2020 21:25

Rakesh wrote:Great day for the country Bharadwaj.

Expect to see lots of Rhona-Dhona on BRF today from the Tier 1 industry experts.

given it's not final let's have a virtual celebration..

Image

Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vivek K » 14 May 2020 21:30

Indranil wrote:Aaj jaakar mere kalejo ko thandak mili hai. Peace, at last.

True - sounds good. Now can we have some orders please?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 14 May 2020 21:34

Just a couple of points now that MMRCA is dead....

1) Job Creation and Rolling Other Sectors of the Economy - via an American bird - has now gone out the window. Rather that will now happen with India's own fighter. A deep disappointment for LM and Boeing. This is why the LM executive left. He could not deliver.

2) Tejas is now going to serve as the bulk of the Indian Air Force combat fleet. From Mk1 to Mk1A to Mk2 to ORCA/TEDBF, the Air Force is going to love the plane. See the first highlighted quote below.

3) With the money saved from the MMRCA debacle, now you will see the Tejas program go leaps and bounds. There is no other OPTION but to invest in the Tejas program. A truly GREAT and FANTASTIC day for India and India's aviation industry.

India Seeks Local Warplanes as Overseas Purchase Plan Stalls
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti ... der-stalls
14 May 2020

“The Indian Air Force is switching that to the LCA,” Rawat said, when asked about the global tender for jets. “The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is GOOD.”

The induction of jets will help India emerge as a key defense exporter due to its “relatively low price,” Rawat said in his office in New Delhi. Several countries may be interested in purchasing the aircraft once they see them in operation with the air force.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 14 May 2020 21:41

Thank You IR for doing that. Greatly appreciated.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 14 May 2020 21:45

Double up the Mk1A order and I will guarantee exports.

When a customer sees that the IAF operates 200+ Tejas variants (40 Mk1s + 83 Mk1As + another 83 Mk1As), they see not just numbers. They see confidence. When a customer sees that HAL is churning out Tejas aircraft like pancakes, they see viability and sustainability. When a customer sees the IAF and HAL partnering together to develop and roll out an evolution roadmap for the Tejas, they see an aircraft that has a future.

To the customer, perception is the foundation. If the customer cannot see it, they will never believe it.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Bharadwaj » 14 May 2020 21:51

Rakesh wrote:Great day for the country Bharadwaj.

Expect to see lots of Rhona-Dhona on BRF today from the Tier 1 industry experts.


They must be in deep shock. Give them some time.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby sudeepj » 14 May 2020 22:11

What a tremendous development! Now my prediction is, mbda will even sell you meteor for integration into lca or mwf.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 May 2020 22:14

someone also pointed out that with india it will not be just the product it will be a relationship of complete package with..training, repair, maintenance. Many nations like singapore, Vietnam UAE etc are already part of it due to russian eqpmt history..and in fact given our bilateral trade agreements there is a possibility of raw commodity swaps too, many of these nations also have credit lines by India. All these would complement and would be amenable to friendly nations.

Needless to say the production capacity needs to be cranked up big time, if not doubled for export to happen and IAF needs fulfilled. Quite sometime back i was compilign data of GDP, def spending as a % of GDP, mil size, sqdns etc across nations. to check what drove the 42 sqdn requirements. While i didnt make much progress, the thought clarity was that to have a 42 sqdn with current army size and defense spending the only way is to have tejas around 20 sqdns. Also, the 42 sqdn no. makes appearance in late 90s or early 2000s in parliamentary speeches. Dont think there was a two and half front threat. In case china joins, it will be best to have Majority of PAF being handled by Tejas to free up maximum numbers for PLAAF and PLAN mischiefs. Tejas will be extremely useful everywhere but for deep interdiction with heavy load from safety into Tibet we would need our Su 30s

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby suryag » 14 May 2020 22:14

The Tejas is a very good aircraft but it is too late. Remember, Dr. APJK said in 2000 we will have 200, it has been delayed due to the incompetence of MoF and MoD additionally, we should look at Russian aircraft which are far better and there are 100s of airframes which my uncle Putin will give for free. Moreover, they are very trustworthy and helped us during our previous conflicts.



=== pardon my sarcasm here ===

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 14 May 2020 22:14

ashishvikas wrote:India Seeks Local Warplanes as Overseas Purchase Plan Stalls

India plans to switch to locally-made fighter jets, two years after asking global companies to submit proposals to supply 114 combat aircraft in the world’s biggest warplane contract.

“The Indian Air Force is switching that to the LCA,” Rawat said, when asked about the global tender for jets. “The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti ... ssion=true


Now increase the orders.

114 MRCA - 12 Su-30, 21 MiG-29, leaves space for 81 more LCAs. :)

Use the cost savings to build more local spares, add EW, Astra and inhouse upgrade to the Su-30s as well.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 14 May 2020 22:16

+108 Karan Saar! India just saved herself US $20+ billion.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby RKumar » 14 May 2020 22:33

It’s not only money $30 billion saved but also securing India from the whims and whining of OEM.

Really happy to hear the statement coming from horse’s mouth

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 14 May 2020 23:55

Rakesh wrote: Expect to see lots of Rhona-Dhona on BRF today.

Let me be the first one to start admiral Saar. What's the big deal about this? 83mk1A was done deal anyways. And mrca 2.0 was all but a circus that was going nowhere. Everybody knew this.

So what's new or newj here? Just a small official recognition of what was fait accompli?

Now if there was a promise to buy another 114 Tejas as an MRCA replacement, then I'd be celebrating.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 15 May 2020 00:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 15 May 2020 00:02

Cain Marko wrote:Let me be the first one to start admiral Saar. What's the big deal about this? 83mk1A was done deal anyways. And mrca 2.0 was all but a circus that was going nowhere. Everybody knew this.

So what's new or newj here? Just a small official recognition of what was fait accompli?

Now if there was a promise to buy another 114 Tejas as an MRCA replacement, then I'd be celebrating.

Cain-ji, I hope you realize the MMRCA deal has been cancelled. There are no F-teens coming or Gripen, MiG-35, Su-35, Typhoon or Rafale.

However the shortfall has to be made up. In the absence of 114 phoren birds, where else can the IAF look? The answer is Tejas.

I am celebrating onlee. Bring out your lungi and celebrate :lol:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 15 May 2020 00:11

Indranil wrote:Aaj jaakar mere kalejo ko thandak mili hai. Peace, at last.

The writing was on the wall a while ago, once this COVID-19 crisis started to derail the economy. Just waiting to hear that the MRCA RFP is being scrapped.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Avinandan » 15 May 2020 00:42

The only fear is if Unkil becomes vindictive and says no for the engines ..

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 15 May 2020 00:47

Avinandan wrote:The only fear is if Unkil becomes vindictive and says no for the engines ..

That will wake up some of India's policymakers who tilt towards strategic alignment with Amreeka.

It will also cause repercussions (monetary - which is the only thing the Amreekis care about) in the Indo-US relationship.

It will be a big boost for the Kaveri program.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby dinesh_kimar » 15 May 2020 01:20

Rakesh wrote:I am celebrating onlee. Bring out your lungi and celebrate :lol:


Saar,
Q1: I estimate the Tejas weighs 6.5 tons. Are we getting sweets this time?

Q2: lungi with face mask wokay bass?

More seriously, the CDS has mooted this as a suggestion, and the IAF may still put up a fight using ASQR.

We will only know if it is announced by the Defence Minister (Sri KingsGod Lion) and order signed.

Then, and only then, is the time for Kingfisher Strong.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 15 May 2020 01:24

dinesh_kimar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I am celebrating onlee. Bring out your lungi and celebrate :lol:


Saar,
Q1: I estimate the Tejas weighs 6.5 tons. Are we getting sweets this time?

Q2: lungi with face mask wokay bass?

Sweets are being distributed as I type this.... :lol:

dinesh_kimar wrote:More seriously, the CDS has mooted this as a suggestion, and the IAF may still put up a fight using ASQR.

We will only know if it is announced by the Defence Minister (Sri KingsGod Lion) and order signed.

Then, and only then, is the time for Kingfisher Strong.

The game is over. There is no 114 phoren fighters coming. There is no money for this. The IAF will learn to FIGHT AND WIN with Tejas. If Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, VrC achieved victory in a MiG-21 Bison...imagine what he will do in a Tejas. There will be a host of other aircraft to support the Tejas (Su-30MKI, Rafale, MiG-29UPG, Mirage 2000I, etc) in a future conflict.

Enjoy your Kingfisher and I will join you too :)

And since the IAF is a professional air force, they will play their cards right and order another two squadrons more of the Rafale when the economic situation improves. Or perhaps it will be two squadrons of F-35 (if the geopolitical stars align for India and the US). And the economic situation will improve. So the IAF can put out all the ASQRs they want for 114 fighters. It is going to amount to little. Where is the money?

Rakesh
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 15 May 2020 01:29

And dinesh...one more thing. You know the RFP for 57 carrier borne fighters and a 65,000 ton, EMALS equipped and nuclear powered, aircraft carrier to influence events from Alaska in the west to the South China Sea in the east? That is also gone. No Rafale M or F-18E/F Super Hornet. Another Vikrant Class vessel will likely come, when the economic situation improves. And she will operate TEDBF.

Swadeshi First, Videshi Last - that is the new Mantra now at North Block. All thanks to the CDS. The General is a gift to India.

His thoughts need to be drilled down the ladder of military hierarchy.


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