MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

[JayS]

Is there any video of the event where the CDS said this..???

[ArjunPandit]

rakesh ji is high on tejas fumes..may be my excitement has been neutered by the 13 stages of DPP. Speaking of kingfisher, Mallay lost his appeal and will be returning to india soon..who knows he can be forced to come back on vande bharat mission in the air india business class ....

[MeshaVishwas]

Never been more happy to say it, but....IB4TL?

IAF to buy 83 more Tejas fighters from HAL instead of foreign jets, CDS Rawat says-Sudhi Ranjan Sen
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-to-buy- ... 21827/?amp

[Aditya_V]

MK1A is not the replacement of MRCA, a combination of more Su 30 ,some more Rafale and most importantly MWF will be its replacement. But look how at every stage BIF try and undermine local production.

[SidSoma]

Just wow. For once someone other than us is convinced.

[srin]

Now, wait for paid articles in MSM on LCA being bad, being late, can't carry 20 tonnes of bombs, etc. I expect it's going to start in next 3-4 days.

[ks_sachin]

Many a slip between the cup and the lip!!!
CDS can say what he wants....

[srai]

This is getting comic

83 LCA Mk1A now has become the winner of the “single engine” MRCA II/III saga ... a full circle! Good spin.

Looks like the GoI is setting a stage for 83 LCA signing and at the same time closing the MRCA III contest.

[kvraghav]

This is nothing but cancellation of MRCA 3.0

The 83 Tejas is nothing but a different spin to the same Mk1A order.

[nam]

There was never going to be a MRCA 2. GoI kept delaying the AoN, in return IAF kept delaying the MK1A order. Now the MK1A order was about to be signed, if the virus did not interfere, an AON "may" have been issued.

However at the same time, CDS already told the press, that things should be brought in trance. Fundamentally diluting any large import.

The Chinese virus gave the perfect excuse. IAF cannot go back on MK1A order, as everything was sorted out and plans must have been to sign in the new fiscal year; i.e March.

IAF and HAL played a nice little saga with MK1A.

[ArjunPandit]

This is getting comic

83 LCA Mk1A now has become the winner of the “single engine” MRCA II/III saga ... a full circle! Good spin.

Looks like the GoI is setting a stage for 83 LCA signing and at the same time closing the MRCA III contest.

adding to it RKS Bhaduria is the IAF chief ..he's been associated since pretty much beginning

[ArjunPandit]

There was never going to be a MRCA 2. GoI kept delaying the AoN, in return IAF kept delaying the MK1A order. Now the MK1A order was about to be signed, if the virus did not interfere, an AON "may" have been issued.

However at the same time, CDS already told the press, that things should be brought in trance. Fundamentally diluting any large import.

The Chinese virus gave the perfect excuse. IAF cannot go back on MK1A order, as everything was sorted out and plans must have been to sign in the new fiscal year; i.e March.

IAF and HAL played a nice little saga with MK1A.

wait for MoD babus on print or idrw to come up with story that how MoD saved tejas by being slow on MMRCA

[sajaym]

Notice how very gently the number is reduced from 114 to 83 and no one is asking about the 2 squadron worth of aircraft which have gone missing. This seems to be a very subtle hint of 2 more follow-on squadrons of Rafale.

[TushS]

Notice how very gently the number is reduced from 114 to 83 and no one is asking about the 2 squadron worth of aircraft which have gone missing. This seems to be a very subtle hint of 2 more follow-on squadrons of Rafale.

Missing 2 squadrons are probably going to filled by more Su-30MKI & Mig-29.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 94529?s=20 ---> CDS’s comments (axing of MMRCA 2.0) has clearly changed what the IAF’s current and future force structure will look like.We can assume MWF orders will be expanded somewhat to cover shortfall faced by this cut and exercising of 3rd + 4th Rafale squadron is almost certain.

https://twitter.com/TheAlbatross15/stat ... 88993?s=20 ---> IMO...IAF will probably be more than happy if 36 - 48 Rafales were taken in a G2G and MMRCA 2.0 is scrapped. I do not know of any IAF fighter that was bought off competitive bidding anyway. All have been G2G. Yet we waste time and money. The rest, should be Indian ---> LCA Mk1A/2 (MWF) / AMCA.

[maitya]

Now from ToI - headline says it all:

India seeks local warplanes as overseas purchase plan stalls

[Ashokk]

India seeks local warplanes as overseas purchase plan stalls

NEW DELHI: India plans to switch to locally-made fighter jets, two years after asking global companies to submit proposals to supply 114 combat aircraft in the world's biggest warplane contract.
The country's air force is finalizing plans to induct indigenously made Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas to boost the capability of its aging combat aircraft fleet, Chief of Defence Staff Bipin Rawat said in an interview in New Delhi. It will buy an additional 83 jets, apart from an earlier deal for 40 aircraft, for $6 billion, he said.
"The Indian Air Force is switching that to the LCA," Rawat said, when asked about the global tender for jets. "The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good."
The decision is a set back for the likes of Boeing Co, Lockheed Martin Corp and Saab AB who were in the race for the $15 billion order and another sign that India is abandoning costly foreign defense purchases which have been plagued by bureaucratic delays and a funding crunch. Prime Minister Narendra Modi this week stressed the need to buy locally made products to boost an economy battered by the Covid-19 outbreak.

[ArjunPandit]

i think vivek lal read the tea leaves before anyone did..his departure should have indicated that to us..i had thought about it ..but i was thinking more like US is out, and not F18. Seems like its tejas and its derivatives all the way..but dont expect it to die down ..it is an ekta kapoor serial..dead characters may return if economy improves soon..or might be part of package deal with US to move industries...

[Nilanjan]

I knew this is going to be happen 2-3 years earlier...i'm very happy to know we have started to stop wasting of money...now go for 100 percent swadeshi,not a single percent lesser....

[Manish_P]

Hain.. it is not a set back for the french and russkies

And a BJP spokesperson G V L Narasimha Rao did say yesterday:

"When we say local, it is not just local products made by domestic companies. Anything that is manufactured in India for us is local."

[ArjunPandit]

things are changing as we speak..i would not read by GVLNR, i would look at what CDS said and who's the IAF chief, and the fact that vivek lall left LM. Even a manufacturing of F21/16 would have been a great win for VL. He might have been asked politely to leave as is common in US companies..

[abhik]

[b][url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-seeks-local-warplanes-as-overseas-purchase-plan-stalls/articleshow/75752991.cms]...[b]The decision is a set back for the likes of Boeing Co, Lockheed Martin Corp and Saab AB...

Hain.. it is not a set back for the french and russkies

And a BJP spokesperson G V L Narasimha Rao did say yesterday :

"When we say local, it is not just local products made by domestic companies. Anything that is manufactured in India for us is local."

Yup which why, hold your lungies tight until the deal for 83 is actually signed, MK-2 metal cutting starts and AMCA prototype is funded etc.

[Manish_P]

things are changing as we speak..i would not read by GVLNR, i would look at what CDS said and who's the IAF chief, and the fact that vivek lall left LM. Even a manufacturing of F21/16 would have been a great win for VL. He might have been asked politely to leave as is common in US companies..

Correct. I, like others, had guessed the 'disappointment' of the powers-that-be when VL sahib was moved out. I never considered the swedes in the picture anyway. What i am trying to hear/see now is if there are sighs/sobs also emanating from the french coast and the russian steppes.

Yup which why, hold your lungies tight until the deal for 83 is actually signed, MK-2 metal cutting starts and AMCA prototype is funded etc.

Indeed, Saar. Kaske pakde hain

[Vivek K]

Tejas was the default MMRCA. Good to see the announcement. No way would the selection circus of a foreign fighter could be completed in 2-3 years. Our track record is 15-20 years to decide. The problem was in how to fund elections from military purchases. That is why foreign equipment is purchased in India. The Marut was rejected as an underpowered aircraft and replaced with an underpowered aircraft (Jaguar). The Arjun beat the T-90, yet IA ordered 1500 T-90s.

I am not convinced about the final decision yet. The circus will go on and attacks on Tejas will become bloodier now. In the end, the political class will resume their fundraising from foreign purchases and the corrupt mafia will continue to gleefully reject local products as Dubba or Boys with Toys etc. Unless there are contracts, interviews mean nothing.

[Kartik]

things are changing as we speak..i would not read by GVLNR, i would look at what CDS said and who's the IAF chief, and the fact that vivek lall left LM. Even a manufacturing of F21/16 would have been a great win for VL. He might have been asked politely to leave as is common in US companies..

Dr Vivek Lall leaving LM has nothing to do with the chances of the F-21. Even yesterday LM's CFO, Ken Posseriede mentioned the F-21 offering for India in a conference organized by Goldman Sachs. Dr Vivek Lall was earlier with Boeing and pushing the Super Hornet, then changed sides to LM and started pushing the F-16 Block 70.

From AW&ST

Lockheed continues to compete for future awards for the F-16, including an order for up to 25 aircraft to a country in North Africa, he said. The candidates for the order in North Africa include existing customers Morocco and Egypt, along with potential interest by Tunisia.

Indonesia has ordered a batch of Sukhoi Su-35s, but is in talks with Lockheed for F-16s, he added. The Philippines could buy as many as 12, he said, and the Lockheed aircraft remains under consideration by Croatia.

The U.S. government also has cleared Taiwan to order 66 F-16s. The U.S. Air Force in April awarded a contract to GE Aviation to build the F110 engines for the Taiwanese aircraft, but has not awarded the airframe contract amidst continuing pressure against the order from China.

Finally, Lockheed has offered the improved, F-21 version of the aircraft to India, which could order more than 100 new fighters to replace an aging fleet of MiG-21s.
..

The clear direction must come from the MoD, that there will be no RFP released this year or later next year.

The real MMRCA for the IAF will now be the MWF, not the Tejas Mk1 or Mk1A which continue to be light fighters. Perhaps even 12 squadrons of MWF won't be enough now, it may need to scale up to 18 squadrons to cover the MMRCA requirement as well.

[Sumeet]

India should pursue both MWF and follow on batche(s) [ 1 - 3] of Rafale when F4 version matures including upgrading existing ones to F4 standard as well. There is no need for new circus called MMRCA 2.

Complete focus should be on indigenous R&D & production eco system for this whole decade for both MWF and Super Sukhoi upgrade and AMCA towards end of this decade.

We may collaborate on certain weapon systems and avionics as need be otherwise full emphasis should be on indigenous platforms which may house certain components that are foreign or have foreign sub components.

[Kartik]

India should pursue both MWF and follow on batche(s) [ 1 - 3] of Rafale when F4 version matures including upgrading existing ones to F4 standard as well. There is no need for new circus called MMRCA 2.

Complete focus should be on indigenous R&D & production eco system for this whole decade for both MWF and Super Sukhoi upgrade and AMCA towards end of this decade.

We may collaborate on certain weapon systems and avionics as need be otherwise full emphasis should be on indigenous platforms which may house certain components that are foreign or have foreign sub components.

What is required is real funding and real political and armed forces commitment, and not just lip service about being self-reliant.

And yes, these two (MWF and another batch of 36-48 Rafales) should suffice for the IAF's need for MRCA this decade. The 2030s will all be about getting the AMCA into service while MWF deliveries are on-going. By then the MWF should be mature and fulfill all the roles it is intended to.

Super Sukhoi upgrade must be given absolute priority and with almost all indigenous equipment, including the Uttam radar and not a PESA Irbis from Russia.

Pragmatic indigenisation is the way to go- JV with international partners where required, but imports must be considered only in the case where no indigenous alternative is present, such as in the case of the MH-60R Romeo. The NUH for e.g. must be indigenous when there is a Naval ALH that can do the role. No point handing over billions of $ to a foreign firm for some private sector partner to just set up assembly line when no real insurmountable technology gap there that the Naval ALH cannot cross.

[Manish_P]

Didn't know the correct thread hence putting it here.

How does the below statement impact the scene vis a vis the MRCA?

Foreign Direct Investment limit in defence manufacturing under automatic route is being raised from 49% to 74%: FM

She also said the foreign direct investment (FDI) limit in defence manufacturing would be raised from 49 per cent to 74 per cent under the automatic route.

From ET -

Make in India push for defence

Indigenistion of imported spares
List of weapons/platforms to be notified for import ban
Separate budget for procurement
Improve autonomy, accountability in ordnance
FDI limit raised from 49% to 74%
Overhaul of testing systems

[ldev]

From ET -

Make in India push for defence

Indigenistion of imported spares
List of weapons/platforms to be notified for import ban
Separate budget for procurement
Improve autonomy, accountability in ordnance
FDI limit raised from 49% to 74%
Overhaul of testing systems

Makes it easier for LM or Boeing to set up an assembly line in India and still keep "key technology" under their control. The product will be advertised as "Made in India" under the "Make in India" initiative. If LM can offer a "Made in India" F-16 at prices comparable to a Tejas, then MMRCA 2.0 could still take on a life of it's own.

By the way, FDI >49% was still available, not just under the "automatic approval" rule. So now 74% is possible under "automatic approval" and higher percentages with specific approval. Cuts out red tape up to 74%

[Rakesh]

Makes it easier for LM or Boeing to set up an assembly line in India and still keep "key technology" under their control. The product will be advertised as "Made in India" under the "Make in India" initiative. If LM can offer a "Made in India" F-16 at prices comparable to a Tejas, then MMRCA 2.0 could still take on a life of it's own.

By the way, FDI >49% was still available, not just under the "automatic approval" rule. So now 74% is possible under "automatic approval" and higher percentages with specific approval. Cuts out red tape up to 74%

The OEMs need a minimum order of 100 aircraft to transfer the production line to India. It does not make financial sense for them to do so otherwise. The NDA Govt will not sign a deal for 114 MRCA - for a minimum of $20 billion - during COVID. Neither will they do so, post COVID. There is no money for this anymore. One way to circumvent this hurdle would be to *NOT* have an assembly line in India and directly acquire fighters from the OEM (as the first 18 aircraft in the 114 contract has to be in fly away condition). In that scenario the offsets will be via components, but will obviously not include anything on the engine or the radar. It will also drastically reduce the cost of MMRCA 2.0 when fighters are acquired in fly-away condition.

Right now the focus is on fulfilling the contracts that are in limbo (i.e. 83 Tejas Mk1A order) and continuing the payments on the contracts that have been signed (the 36 Rafale order, the S-400 order, the MH-60R order, the four Krivak III vessels, etc). The next phase will be looking at acquisitions of foreign products, albeit in small numbers. With regards to the MMRCA, an order of 36 aircraft will likely be acquired. But it will be a while before such a contract is signed.

The last of the 36 Rafales are due by April 2023 and the ISE updates on them will be complete by Sept 2023. These dates will likely be pushed by a few months, as the first batch of Rafales are already delayed by two months due to COVID. Elections are due by May 2024. The NDA Govt will delay the new MMRCA order (using lack of funds as a reason which is a valid one because of COVID and its effect on the global economy) till the end of their current term and leave the decision to the next govt. Defence Minister Rajnath Singh has said that the IAF will have to make do with the 36 Rafales for the short term. No Govt will sign anything during election season anyway.

In this scenario, the two OEMs that stand to gain the most are 1) Dassault and 2) Lockheed Martin. The geo-political scenario - post 2024/2025 - may make it favourable for the US Govt to grant permission to LM to sell the F-35 to India. Right now, that environment does not exist. No one has a crystal ball, but who knows what might happen in the future. That would be a big win for LM and a huge capability boost for the IAF. I personally believe that the relationship between the two nation will continue to progress.

Dassault equally stands to gain as they know 36 more Rafales can easily slot into the IAF's ORBAT. The infrastructure already exists and by 2024/2025, there will be a sizeable roster of qualified Rafale pilots to raise two more squadrons. And Dassault has no reason to worry about the capability of the Rafale. The IAF has made their satisfaction very clear to Dassault - from the Air Chief down.

In either scenario - F-35 or Rafale - aircraft will come in flyaway condition. Factory, Job Creation, Production Line, Export is all done. That mantle will now be taken over by the Tejas. There is no game changer in any of the other MMRCA contestants over the Rafale to make a case for 114 of them anyway. The F-35 is the only exception and that aircraft is not taking part in the (current and now defunct) MMRCA contest. Only time will tell who between Dassault and Lockheed Martin will get the next contract of 36 MRFA.

[Rakesh]

These articles were posted on BRF when it came out, but ties in to above....

Advantage Rafale? Foreign firms want clarity from IAF on ‘staggered’ purchase of fighters
https://theprint.in/defence/advantage-r ... rs/367303/
18 Feb 2020

India Prepares For New Fighter Tender
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ter-tender
06 Feb 2020

[Rakesh]

Didn't know the correct thread hence putting it here.

How does the below statement impact the scene vis a vis the MRCA?

Foreign Direct Investment limit in defence manufacturing under automatic route is being raised from 49% to 74%: FM

She also said the foreign direct investment (FDI) limit in defence manufacturing would be raised from 49 per cent to 74 per cent under the automatic route.

Thank You Manish for posting this here. See this answer from Nitin Gokhale about MMRCA. The larger purpose of the video is to address the above issue. But see Nitin Gokhale's answer on the MMRCA from 7:36 to 10:36.

He raises many important points to make the viewer realize that MMRCA - in its current form - is dead or as Nitin Gokhale puts it...in LIMBO. Anyone who knows the inner workings of the MoD, knows fully well what "limbo" really means

I am happy that the MMRCA 2.0 is dead. It was a noose around India's neck. As a dear friend told me ---> no steak (F-21)....just salad (Tejas), dal chawal (more Tejas) and biryani (and even more Tejas). Thank you to my friend

The only winner out of this entire sordid episode is the Tejas. She will be India's single engine, mass produced fighter.

[Manish_Sharma]

Makes it easier for LM or Boeing to set up an assembly line in India and still keep "key technology" under their control. The product will be advertised as "Made in India" under the "Make in India" initiative. If LM can offer a "Made in India" F-16 at prices comparable to a Tejas, then MMRCA 2.0 could still take on a life of it's own.

Stop dreaming, years ago Saudis paid 145 million dollar per F-16.

[MeshaVishwas]

Stop dreaming, years ago Saudis paid 145 million dollar per F-16

Saudis do not operate F-16s.

[MeshaVishwas]

Goodbye!

Say Goodbye To India's Super F-16
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2 ... uper-f-16/

[Rsatchi]

Hain.. it is not a set back for the french and russkies

And a BJP spokesperson G V L Narasimha Rao did say yesterday:

"When we say local, it is not just local products made by domestic companies. Anything that is manufactured in India for us is local."

Manish-ji, Listen to this video explanation ---> https://youtu.be/wNNWJJzMlJw

I think there are wheels within wheels turning here!!! Wonder if CDS has got the IAF on board for LCA by promising local production of 'Rafales'!! Plus maybe Tata/LM would be given a chance to start second line of LCA. Meaning everybody is happy? Also this 74% increase would make sense, don't you think.

[Manish_P]

Thank you sirs, for the videos. Will help me in processing the info. It is said that the devil is in the details. And our procurement system has devils at different levels. Hopefully there will be definite movement on this by the stakeholders and things will get unambiguous soon.

[Manish_Sharma]

Stop dreaming, years ago Saudis paid 145 million dollar per F-16

Saudis do not operate F-16s.

Yes UAE, not Saudi bought F-16 Block 60.

[dinesha]

IAF to acquire 450 fighter aircraft in future, says Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... ria/593673

New Delhi: In the future, the Indian Air Force is planning to acquire 450 fighter aircraft for deployment on the northern and western frontiers of the country, Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria said on Monday.

The list of aircraft planned to be inducted by the Air Force include 36 Rafales, 114 Multirole Fighter Aircraft, 100 Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and over 200 variants of the Light Combat Aircraft.

"In the next 15 years, 83 LCAs are our primary focus, after that LCA Mark 2 will come in we are looking at close to 100 of those, that makes it near 200 of LCA class," Bhadauria told ANI in an interview.

"AMCA, we are looking at six squadrons, so that puts it close to 100 (aircraft). So, in the indigenous domain areas which are already frozen in terms of our requirement, in terms of our understanding with DRDO in the fighter (segment)," said the Air Force Chief.

He added that the induction of these fighters would take place over a period of the next 35 years as the inductions have to be planned to keep in mind the future requirements.

The Air Force Chief said: "In the trainer aircraft segment, we are looking at 70 HTT-40 as a support aircraft to the Pilatus fleet. So, we are looking at 370 odd indigenous aircraft."

The IAF chief said that currently it was the best time from the point of view for indigenous production and said, "It is now the perfect time for industries to respond and come up with solutions which are rapidly put in place and come up to the challenge of delivering these aircraft."

On plans to acquire 114 multirole fighter aircraft, he said, "this project is in the middle-weight and is in the Rafale class, in this issue, we will deal with it in the Make in India region, with an increase in FDI, with support to the private sector. I think in future this will bring in technology which is required to support the aviation sector. I think it is important to have another generation of aircraft in terms of capability, technology as we go along."

A few months ago, the Indian Air Force was facing a shortage of around 10 squadrons of Combat Aircraft in view of phasing out of the MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters planes.

[arvin]

Just like F-16 was rebranded as F-21, LM will probably rebrand JSF as Janta Strike Fighter to win this 114 Multi role fighter deal.