MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 07 Mar 2018 11:58

It is now F35 rakshaks vs FGFA rakshaks.. it is stealth war..

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-sal ... jet-2018-3

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 07 Mar 2018 12:36

Kashi wrote:
Mukesh.Kumar wrote: We need to keep the Russians with us.


Perhaps the Russians should also share your views and try and keep us with them.


Please not to misunderstand Kashiji. No love lost for Rodina or looking back through rose tinted glasses. Here's my train of thought.

  • We need time to be self sufficient. Even at the height of its powers, neither the US nor the CCCP, were able to go alone and live in isolation. So there is unlikely to be a time when we can disregard everyone else completely. Non-Alignment does not work.
  • The failure of Nehruvian/ legacy Indian policy has been swinging between poles. We went from being US friendly to Hindi-chini-bhai-bhai to Russophiles. We need to be pragmatic.
  • While today the West is being friendly, and is not as powerful as before (which makes us attractive to them, and them attractive for us), we should not antagonize Russia or for that matter even China. Don't be a pushpover, but by no means antagonize.
  • The sooner we realize Russia has always acted on its self interest, and self interest only, the faster would we be able to overcome the emotional strands in our conversation on undying and steadfast Indo-Rus relations. Today, the reality is that Russian interests are not aligned with India. Neither do they view us as a dependable ally who can pull their irons out of the fire (like China with its loads of cash).
  • We also need to realize that China and Russia have problems which we can exploit. In this context why antagonize the Russians. Don't GUBO, but don't stick your finger in their eye.
  • Our stance should be dictated only on furthering Indian interests. Whatever we can beg, borrow, steal, buy. cajole out, let's do it. From both the West and the East. Let us not repeat the past mistake of swinging like a pendulum from one camp to another. This will be a harder road, but then great power is not gifted, it has to be earned.
  • If there's a playbook we need to play its being Umrao Jaan, hundreds of suitors dying at her feet, yet independent. Let's not be the sati-savitri, walled up biwi waiting for he her hubby, who ignores her as she has nothing new to offer.

For all these reasons, I hope that we can come to some understanding with the Russians. That we can negotiate the FGFA to something that makes sense for us financially and militarily.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kashi » 07 Mar 2018 13:43

I agree with much that you say, but whatever do you mean by "[W]hy antagonize the Russians?" I am hard-pressed to remember when was the last time we went against "Russian interests". We've kept a hands-off policy on Syria, we have never commented or intervened in territorial disputes between Russia-Japan, Russia-China, Russia-Ukraine or Russia-Georgia, we have not joined the international community in condemning their actions or imposing sanctions. We remain the largest purchaser of their weapons systems.

In view of this, how and what kind of understanding can we come to with Russia that we do not supposedly have? What are they looking for? Russia on the other hand seems to be going out of their way to prick and needle, if not outright antagonise us. From the media outlets such as RT and Sputnik, virtually mirroring western propagandists BBC, CNN, Economist, NYT and WaPo; statements from their top officials invoking subtle and not-so-subtle equal-equal between India and Pakistan; to the Baloch nationalist in Moscow accusing India from fishing in troubled Baloch waters.

Are you saying that we should "do more" when it comes to our relations with the Russians?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 07 Mar 2018 14:33

The FGFA deal is reqd. to help us acquire cutting edge fighter aircraft tech.However the cost of stealth birds is v.high and in my opinion the IAF in wanting something beyond the basic SU-57 MK-1, has only increased the dev. costs.As we've seen before, incremental improvements have proved themselves over decades, as easier to accomplish rather than a "leap of faith".

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 07 Mar 2018 15:44

Kashi wrote:I agree with much that you say, but whatever do you mean by "[W]hy antagonize the Russians?" I am hard-pressed to remember when was the last time we went against "Russian interests". We've kept a hands-off policy on Syria, we have never commented or intervened in territorial disputes between Russia-Japan, Russia-China, Russia-Ukraine or Russia-Georgia, we have not joined the international community in condemning their actions or imposing sanctions. We remain the largest purchaser of their weapons systems.

In view of this, how and what kind of understanding can we come to with Russia that we do not supposedly have? What are they looking for? Russia on the other hand seems to be going out of their way to prick and needle, if not outright antagonise us. From the media outlets such as RT and Sputnik, virtually mirroring western propagandists BBC, CNN, Economist, NYT and WaPo; statements from their top officials invoking subtle and not-so-subtle equal-equal between India and Pakistan; to the Baloch nationalist in Moscow accusing India from fishing in troubled Baloch waters.

Are you saying that we should "do more" when it comes to our relations with the Russians?


Kashiji, thank you. Your question forced me to think through and delienate my hazy notions. Here's my 2 cents:

Convey to R, that we are neither with them, nor against them. Not by actions but by words. India will only look out for her national interests which are India becoming more powerful and a dharmic world order.

  1. Say no. Be assertive. Not give in to blackmail. Call a spade a spade. If it means not supporting Russia on issues, or cancelling busienss deals, we should convey to them exactly why it does not suit us
  2. Not take decisions based on how it will please Americans. E.g. our backing of sanctions on Iran when both Indian interest and the right thing to be done would have been to sit out. Like we are doing balancing Israel and Palestine. Let's prove to the world that we are going to be hard nosed about Indian interest. Offer us things which coincide with Indian interest and we will naturally be a dependable partner. Behind all the bluster and cold calculation, let's also understand the Russian psyche which is afraid of the world ganging up on them. At this point the thing they will find most abhorrent will be a partner who they depended upon but is easily swayed by Western intervention. Voting against them based on national interest is something they will understand and accept. Indeed, all through the Cold War and subsequent years, though slightly tilted towards R, India has maintained a more or less independent ground (good analysis based on UN voting patterns here). This not giving in to be seen as a US lackey is the core of my surmise of not antagonizing R.
  3. Finally make it clear that India will develop its own strengths. And will accept any help from any quarter. If you want to be in India's good books and get a share of the pie, give India the best deal. We welcome you. But if you don't there are others. And you lose out.

In sum, my surmise is, "We will act in our national interest. No we are not afraid of you. Neither are we afraid of the West. We are a dependable partner with much to offer in terms of market access, trade partnership, and a responsible player. We welcome you to be part of the Indian military market as long as it lasts as long as you offer a fair deal in our national interest. And yes, we also appreciate you as a partner who will take decisions based on your national interest."

Let R understand that this is a market and a responsible ally for their to lose. What do they gain instead, China (a competitor) and debt wracked Paki's?

Would welcome thoughts on this.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Bart S » 07 Mar 2018 16:44

Philip wrote:The FGFA deal is reqd. to help us acquire cutting edge fighter aircraft tech.However the cost of stealth birds is v.high and in my opinion the IAF in wanting something beyond the basic SU-57 MK-1, has only increased the dev. costs.As we've seen before, incremental improvements have proved themselves over decades, as easier to accomplish rather than a "leap of faith".


Yeah, right. Cutting edge stealth tech, when they have none. And they are going to genuinely share tech in good faith with no strings attached (which they actually do with the Chinese who make all sorts of homegrown copies and spinoffs) with us when as per reports they haven't even let IAF pilots take a spin on the aircraft.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 07 Mar 2018 17:47

Yeah,Chin homegrown birds were they're having difficulties getting engine etch,etc. What the deal on the FGFA is isn't in the public domain.So let's not jump to comclusions.However,every movie has a tkt. price.If we're willing to spend $10B on 36 Rafales (price reported in one def. mag),the asking for $4-5B for the FGFA deal to proceed appears to be reasonable,as it would/should include IP rights,etc. As we did with the SU-30s when they first arrived,is to take 2 sqds. first of the basic SU-57 MK-1,then upgraded versions later,returning the frist 2 sqds. as was part of the MKI deal.We would then ultimately have only desi specific aircraft in service.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 07 Mar 2018 17:59

Philip wrote:...asking for $4-5B for the FGFA deal to proceed appears to be reasonable,as it would/should include IP rights,etc..


Does that include the procurement of aircraft (if so, how many?) or just funding towards development?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 07 Mar 2018 19:16

Unless and until the IAF is convinced the bird is stealthy and meets the minimum parameters promised to us 11 years back ( in 2007) we should not be buying another piece of headache. Of course if the russi's do not show pakiness we can buy 36 off the shelf to keep that program on going.Question is with low orders so far of this bird what will be the per unit price? If the price is low then does it deliver what was on paper?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 Mar 2018 22:34

With F-16 sale on hold, US-India ‘2+2 Ministerial’ meet to be ‘stormy’
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 936109.ece

The first round of the US-India ‘2+2 Ministerial’ meet is expected to be “stormy one” with New Delhi putting on hold the deal to acquire F-16 fighter warplanes indefinitely even as Washington continues to berate India over steep import tariff on Harley-Davidson motorbikes. “The 2+2 meet is surely going to be a stormy one. We cannot expect both sides to just smile at each other when so much is going on,” a top official, involved in forming the agenda of the talks, told Business Line requesting anonymity. The US has been eyeing the F-16 programme to bridge its trade deficit with India. US President Donald Trump is also keen on expanding US defence exports to India. In fact, despite his flagship slogan of ‘America First’ and ‘Make America Great Again’, the US President has not stopped Lockheed Martin from investing in India for setting up a manufacturing plant for building the F-16 fighter planes.

Defence Ties Zoom

India-US defence ties have reached $15 billion in 2017 from almost nil in 2001. The Trump administration is pushing India to buy the single-engine F-16 fighter jets from Lockheed Martin which would significantly boost bilateral trade between the countries. Earlier this month, top-level officials from Lockheed Martin met Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman to push the deal again under ‘Make in India’ with a commitment to set up a production line of the fighters with promises of export from the country, added sources. But last week, Sitharaman made it clear that for now the government will only focus on acquiring its indigenously built Tejas aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

Trade Focus

While focus of the 2+2 meeting is going to be defence and strategic, issues concerning trade are also expected to dominate the agenda on both sides, sources said. The ‘2+2 Ministerial’ meet is going to be a new dialogue mechanism between India and the US which will be co-chaired by External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj and Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman with their American counterparts Secretary of State and Defence Rex Tillerson and James Mattis respectively. This is likely to be held on April 19 in Washington, according to sources.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 Mar 2018 22:43

Rakesh wrote:Now we are back at square one with the MRCA competition, but this time Dassault holds a tremendous advantage. Yes it is more expensive to acquire, yes it has boutique weaponry but the fact of the matter is 36 will already be in service when the competition is really underway. But yet I say again, nothing close to 100 aircraft will be acquired. At the most another 36 - 54 aircraft. The IAF wants more Rafales, they have said it over and over again and they will use this option to do exactly that. The IAF is gaming the system and they should. Apart from the F-35 and the Rafale, the IAF sees little use for anything else.

^^^^ FWIW...although I still believe nothing close to 100 aircraft will be ordered. There is no money for this. Two squadrons, maybe three. All depends on Kaveri progress IMHO.

Sale of more Rafale jets high on French President Macron’s India agenda
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 970346.ece

Notwithstanding the controversy in India over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets, the French are going to push New Delhi for a follow-on order of 100 or more of such warplanes under ‘Make in India’ during the visit of French President Emmanuel Macron. The bilateral summit-level meeting between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Macron will take place on Saturday. While all issues concerning India-France Strategic Partnership will be discussed, cooperation in defence is going to be the main focus from the French side, sources told BusinessLine.

Macron, on a three-day visit, will be accompanied by CEOs of almost all top French defence firms. This includes the chief of Dassault Aviation Eric Trappier; Chairman and CEO of Naval Group Hervé Guillou; Thales CEO Patrice Caine; and Safran Group CEO Philippe Petitcolin. The follow-on order for 100-150 more Rafale jets is likely to be one of the topmost items in Macron’s agenda. According to diplomatic sources, the French are treating the recent controversy around the purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft as an “internal political matter” of India.

The French are pushing India to go for another programme where Rafale will set up a production line here to address the needs of the Indian Air Force as well as augment defence exports from India. Although India signed the $7.8-billion deal to acquire 36 Rafale jets, manufactured by Dassault Aviation, in fly-away condition with the previous French government, the present Macron administration has also been pushing to expand the deal. During the visit of French Defence Minister Florence Parly to India in October last year, the issue of a follow-on order for Rafale was taken up. However, India has remained non-committal on the matter.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Zynda » 07 Mar 2018 22:47

Rakesh saar, if IN orders 57 & IAF another 54 (along with current 36...total airframes would come out to 147)...again it will be quite expensive even though the total costs will be spread between IN & IAF budgets. Small possibility of happening is there...But like you said, it all depends on what we get in tech returns apart from a really good product boosting our capability.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 Mar 2018 22:52

Zynda, you make a valid point. However, I am concerned about the MoD getting its fingers in the pie and asking for this and that (ToT, production line, etc) which will only delay the process. I would rather buy two more squadrons off the shelf for the IAF and same for the Navy. Give offsets via component JVs (like radar, engine, etc). Anyways, lets see. A little over 2+ days for March 10th. I want to know what Safran is going to announce. From there, we can make an educated guess.

I do not believe the Navy will get 57 new birds, given budgetary constraints. I expect that 57 to go down to around 40 aircraft.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 08 Mar 2018 02:31

The IAF will successfully shoot down the IN's 57 bird ambitions.Firstly we still have only one CV operational and almost 50 29Ks, " superb aircraft" as one sr. admiral has described them, but with less than expected serviceability.That is an issue where the OEM must deliver results.

Moreover, the lifts of IAC-1 can't operate larger aircraft.A huge failing in its design.How given the huge long life of carriers (40-50 yrs), one has not factored in aircraft replacement as newer more improved types start arriving, and a requirement for larger lifts than current aircraft, is a mystery.

Unless costs come down in an election yr. signing on another $7-10B just for another 36 or so aircraft is simply profligate in the extreme.BMos equipped SS MKIs and more LCAs can do the biz in a far better cost-effective solution.But the influence of the R co. which has a done deal with Dassault must also be factored in! It will want its rewards.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 08 Mar 2018 03:15

I don't think that anything will come of the French interest in discussing the follow-on orders for Rafales. The "internal political matter" of the accusations of corruption by the Congress have muddied the water and now the GoI cannot risk more such accusations 1 year before elections. They'll politely indicate that Dassault, Thales and Snecma should focus on the MRCA RFP whenever it is released.

the one thing that the GoI could do to bring in even more economies of scale, is to merge the IAF and IN's requirement and in that way, eliminate the unnecessary competition in the MRCA program. F-16 and Typhoon have no operational naval variant, neither does Gripen, which has a Sea Gripen paper concept. Only the MiG-29K/MiG-35, Rafale F3+/M and Super Hornet could then compete and that would allow the MoD/IAF and IN to set requirements as they see fit, perhaps tailored to bring in the Rafale into the IAF and IN.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ramana » 08 Mar 2018 03:45

Kartik, You think like a babu.

the one thing that the GoI could do to bring in even more economies of scale, is to merge the IAF and IN's requirement and in that way, eliminate the unnecessary competition in the MRCA program. F-16 and Typhoon have no operational naval variant, neither does Gripen, which has a Sea Gripen paper concept. Only the MiG-29K/MiG-35, Rafale F3+/M and Super Hornet could then compete and that would allow the MoD/IAF and IN to set requirements as they see fit, perhaps tailored to bring in the Rafale into the IAF and IN.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Mar 2018 04:23

^^^
Mukesh.Kumar wrote: .....In sum, my surmise is, "We will act in our national interest. No we are not afraid of you. Neither are we afraid of the West. We are a dependable partner with much to offer in terms of market access, trade partnership, and a responsible player. We welcome you to be part of the Indian military market as long as it lasts as long as you offer a fair deal in our national interest. And yes, we also appreciate you as a partner who will take decisions based on your national interest."

Let R understand that this is a market and a responsible ally for their to lose. What do they gain instead, China (a competitor) and debt wracked Paki's? ....


When you are dependent on Russia for 70 % of your hardware, when they have gamed everyone and everything in the Mod and the services, and you are dependent on them for the SSN/BN stuff, you will tread very gingerly until you have alternative sources both domestic and reliable western ones.

In addition, there many closet Russkies in the MEA and MoD who still rifle through their Young Pioneer magazines and cherish their summer encounters (arranged--sorry guys) with Natashas and Svetlanas at university during the FSU years.

If you look at what Putin and Co have done to the US and Europe with the infowars on social media, you realize they've got us by the umlauts.

It's a slow process. They don't respect us. Putin once said he couldn't believe that India cornered the IT outsourcing business when Russia had smart engineers not 'drones' that India had.

I for one, have never understood why we continue to support Make in Russia (the Gorshkov Frigate Revell kits—bring your own engines; the Pak/FA that the RuAF doesn't really want and the Ship of Fools known as the Viky).

Time and again, they screw us with with half baked stuff which we pay inflate prices for and which simply don't measure up. They do because they think they can. Our Mod/Services Alumni have realized they can't get fired for buying Russian and they do.

Lately, there has been this self delusion that we buy odd things from the Russians because this disguises some secret transfer of cutting edge stuff for the nuke subs or the missiles etc. That's nonsense. We pay separately for that (and a lot). It's time we told the Russians that we will continue to buy things from them that we cannot get elsewhere and that for other stuff, it will simply be price and quality.

Tall order given the termites. IMHO, the Safran/Kaveri stuff has really rattled the Russians (and GE)

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2018 04:29

Cosmo: Please use the name of the poster when quoting. Hard to follow posts otherwise. Thank You.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 08 Mar 2018 09:18

Sale of more Rafale jets high on French President Macron’s India agenda
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=536851

The follow-on order for 100-150 more Rafale jets is likely to be one of the topmost items in Macron’s agenda.
...The French are pushing India to go for another programme where Rafale will set up a production line here to address the needs of the Indian Air Force as well as augment defence exports from India.

..and don't we know when push comes to shove, what should we do? costly planes must be compared with other costly planes even if it is not on the radar

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 08 Mar 2018 09:35

No one has satisfactorily answered why the West has not given us what Russia has, SSBN tech, Akulas,BMos, and the FGFA offer,etc. to mention just a few items at reasonable much cheaper prices than western milware.We crib about the high price of the FGFA but are willing to dump billions for a lesser 4th- gen Rafale backed by the R co., who weild enormous influence in whatever Indian govt. is in power.

The emphasis today with milware from Russia is on JVs with us for aircraft, helos, missiles, etc., not a simple buyer- seller deal making us ever dependent upon the firang OEM like the deal for the Rafale! There was a report last year about an embedded IN team going to Ru to assist in the building of an N-sub so thst we could later on do it on our own back home.Which other nation is giving us such deep insight into N- sub tech so that we can do the biz ourselves later on?

It does not mean though that all our deals should be only with Ru.Fr., etc.Horses for courses as we steadily climb towards self-sufficiently.As for the IN and extra Talwars, it was in the pipeline around 4-5 years ago.Our yards are upto the plimsoll line in orders for DDGs, FFGs ,corvettes, etc.Many are behind schedule too, ck. the programmes.With the massive Chinese naval expansion, the largest on the planet, we need ships , subs, aircraft and helos asap.The IN is the most pragmatic of the three services when it comes to indigenisation.It is decades ahead of its sister services building everything from N-subs to carriers.If it felt the need for the 4 Talwars, we must accept it as the costs are reasonable ( unlike Rafales!) and outfitting of two and building of another two will be done at GSL.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ramana » 08 Mar 2018 20:49

US right after WWII had announced their policy to prevent any regional hegemon to develop as that undercuts their new Imperium.
Everything stems from this.

During the 17th century to end of colonial era there were papal orders not to supply weapons to the Islamic Middle East.
In modern times its called Wassenar Agreement.
Even though India is now part of WA, the old mindset is still there.

Russia is also hedging as it doesn't want to undercut China which is doing its work.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby VKumar » 09 Mar 2018 01:18

SaiK wrote:
Sale of more Rafale jets high on French President Macron’s India agenda
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=536851

The follow-on order for 100-150 more Rafale jets is likely to be one of the topmost items in Macron’s agenda.
...The French are pushing India to go for another programme where Rafale will set up a production line here to address the needs of the Indian Air Force as well as augment defence exports from India.

..and don't we know when push comes to shove, what should we do? costly planes must be compared with other costly planes even if it is not on the radar


If the infrastructure for 36 Rafale can support a higher number, the cost of the next lot will be that much lower.

It's most likely that there are some sunk costs which are independent of numbers, such as training aids. These can be leveraged for further numbers.

So far nobody has criticized Rafale as a fighter. All criticism is based on cost. But as we add numbers that share the infrastructure costs, the cost per plane will drop.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 09 Mar 2018 10:43

it can't be 50%.. and if it is >20%, it is still costly

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 09 Mar 2018 11:12

ramana wrote:Kartik, You think like a babu.

the one thing that the GoI could do to bring in even more economies of scale, is to merge the IAF and IN's requirement and in that way, eliminate the unnecessary competition in the MRCA program. F-16 and Typhoon have no operational naval variant, neither does Gripen, which has a Sea Gripen paper concept. Only the MiG-29K/MiG-35, Rafale F3+/M and Super Hornet could then compete and that would allow the MoD/IAF and IN to set requirements as they see fit, perhaps tailored to bring in the Rafale into the IAF and IN.


:lol:

But it does make sense doesn't it? the IAF needs MRCA, the IN needs MRCBF. Both have somewhat similar timelines of induction they hope for. 2 of the jets competing in both these competitions are common. And commonality helps in spares, training, assembly line numbers, logistics, etc. if the GoI can dangle the carrot of 126+57 fighters for a contract, it can drive a much harder bargain than doing 2 separate contracts with 2 completely different suppliers.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 09 Mar 2018 12:46

You can bet your last $ that the IAF will not want the IN to get the Rafale-M.They will put forth the argument that it will mean dupllicating infra for the In,etc.,plus Rafales based in the ANC,etc. with refuelling ,can do the same biz as the In and better! More Rafales for the IAF will cost less too.
Babu argument in favour of the IAF,what?
The IAF is determined,dog-in-the-manger attitude,that any aircraft bought by the GOI must go to it first.It grudgingly lets the IN get a few for their carriers,a paltry 50 or so and a few sqds of LRMP aircraft.too boring flying over water,and water and water! It doesn't want the IA to also get attack helos but has lost out on that one,asininely by not demanding and acquiring a few sqds of dedicated GA/CS aircraft like A-10s/SU-25s,or even armed hawks,KAY-130s,etc.Now the IA will get the bulk of around 200 LCHs,plus armed Dhruvs,MI-17Vs,etc.I am sure if it asks for Tucanos,etc. it will also get them giving the stand-off with China and constant threat from Pak as reasons.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 09 Mar 2018 17:34

^^^
Philip,

From budget POV, the IA is the worst off being manpower heavy. 80% of its budget goes into paying payroll and pensions. And they have recently added 90,000 more troops to is rank and file. They don’t have the capital budget to do mordernization let alone add CAS.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 10 Mar 2018 01:10

F-16 partnership plan with India stands: Lockheed’s Vivek Lall
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 986388.ece

Q. Now that Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman has gone on record stating that the government will push Tejas for IAF. Do you see it as a setback for F-16 Block 70?
A. Our proposed F-16 partnership with India stands firm. The F-16 remains the only aircraft programme in this competition with the proven performance and industrial scale to meet India’s operational needs and ‘Make in India’ priorities. No competing aircraft comes close to matching the F-16’s operational effectiveness and industrial success. The F-16 Block 70 is an opportunity for India to redefine its geopolitical, military and industrial power and relationships with the US and other leading nations for generations to come.

Q. The Defence Ministry is expected to soon release a fresh tender that will expand the competition now in the fighter jet project. What will be your next step?
A. The Indian government has not yet issued formal requirements. We are continuing to support government-to-government discussions and engage with Indian companies about F-16 industrial opportunities. The F-16 provides unmatched manufacturing, sustainment, upgrade and export opportunities for Indian companies of all sizes, including Micro, Small & Medium Enterprises and suppliers throughout India.

Q. Some of the common objections against the F-16s have been that firstly, it is only a refurbished version of the old model while the basic platform remains the same and secondly, it is used by India’s enemy countries…
A. The F-16 continues to aerodynamically outperform its competitors and advanced technologies are continually integrated into the F-16. Block 70 mission systems are completely new and leverage technologies from the F-35. That combination explains the enduring success of the F-16 program. Till date, 4,588 F-16s have been produced for 27 different countries. A case in point is Bahrain’s recent agreement with the US government to purchase new F-16 Block 70 aircraft for the Royal Bahraini Air Force. Those aircraft will be built at our facility in Greenville, South Carolina. The unmatched size, scope and export potential of the F-16 puts India at the helm of the world’s largest and most diverse aerospace ecosystem. The F-16 ecosystem includes approximately 3,000 operational F-16s flying today with 25 leading air forces, including the US Air Force, and we see additional F-16 production opportunities totalling more than 400 aircraft if India selects the F-16.

Q. Do you plan to offer F-35 to India and do you think the Indian Air Force needs such a plane?
A. Any discussions regarding potential new F-35 customers begin at the government-to-government level. It is not our place to speak on behalf of the US government or the Indian government.

Q. How will Lockheed Martin now to leverage its business in India?
A. While Lockheed Martin is indeed proposing an exclusive F-16 production line in India, we’re looking to build far more than aircraft. We are looking to build trust, new partnerships and capabilities that strengthen India’s economy, national defence and strategic relationship with the US for the next half century and beyond. Lockheed Martin has partnered with India for more than 25 years and we’re eager to strengthen and grow that relationship with long-term, strategic partnerships that achieve ‘Make in India’ objectives and deliver advanced, affordable capabilities that position India for the future.

Q. Are there any plans by Lockheed Martin to make a 100 per cent FDI proposal in India?
A. We are still awaiting formal requirements from the Government, which will define FDI and related government policies

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 10 Mar 2018 02:54

"F-16 outmatched its competitors...", but not in Indian skies! It lost heavily in the MMRCA stakes, not even shortlisted.And if it is so glorious, why are all US allies or most of them, dumping the F-16 in favour of the F-35?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 11 Mar 2018 01:25

Take everything Vivek Lall says with a pinch of salt. He's a salesman. He said pretty much the same stuff about the Boeing Super Hornet when he was with Boeing.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 11 Mar 2018 06:16

Defector is he now?!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 11 Mar 2018 06:44

Infector he is though.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Viv S » 12 Mar 2018 09:05

IAF speeds up hunt for new fighter jets to add muscle

The Indian Air Force will invite proposals in a month, link purchase with building of indigenous stealth jet

By Rahul Singh

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is likely to start the process of inviting foreign military contractors to build fighter jets in the country under the government’s Make in India plan in the next four weeks , a person familiar with the project said.

This multi-billion-dollar project to build 114 jets will be “directly linked” to the development of an indigenous futuristic stealth fighter – the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), the person added.

The air force plans to issue a request for information (RFI) before DefExpo-2018 — a military systems exhibition by the defence ministry — opens in Chennai on April 11.

“The document will not specify the number of engines the jets should have, leaving the field open for makers of both single- and twin-engine planes,” said the person who asked not to be named.

An earlier plan involved pursuing two separate projects to build single-engine and twin-engine fighters in India but that distinction has been discarded now.

The RFI is the first step towards finding a new warplane for the air force and global plane manufacturers will respond to it with operational features and technical parameters of their platforms. That will pave the way for the air force to make a case for getting the ministry’s ‘acceptance of necessity’ (AoN) – the government’s stamp of approval to pursue a military programme.

“After the AoN comes, we could either opt for a government-to-government deal or put out a tender. Both options are open at this stage,” said a senior officer tracking the air force’s modernisation on the condition of anonymity.

The manufacturer that India finally decides to collaborate with will have to commit to transfer of technology not only for the fighter to be built in India but also for the AMCA that is on the drawing board.

“We have asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to prepare a list of technologies they need help with for the AMCA. There will be clear clause on the transfer of those technologies in the contract,” said the officer quoted above.

Experts say the full-scale engineering development of the AMCA up to the prototype stage will take upwards of a decade and its flight first could take place around 2030.

India had floated a global tender for 126 planes more than a decade ago but it was cancelled after Prime Minister Narendra Modi declared in April 2015 that India would directly buy 36 Rafale jets from France.

Six fighters took part in that contest before the Rafale and the Eurofighter made it to the last round.

The new competition is also likely to be among Rafale, Eurofighter, MiG-35, F/A-18, F-16 and Gripen.

“The technology has evolved during the past decade. In their present form, F/A-18 and Gripen NG would not have been rejected in the older contest,” the officer said.

The air force wants to speed up the project as the count of its fighter squadrons has shrunk to 31 compared to an optimum strength of 42-plus units required to fight a two-front war.

The Chinese and Pakistani air forces operate at 60 and 25 fighter squadrons respectively.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby wig » 12 Mar 2018 12:00

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... epage=true


IAF to embark on a long shopping sortie for a jet- the gormint should outsource the decision making part to BRF

The IAF will begin the search again to arrest its falling squadron strength, as the Union government had scrapped the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender after ordering 36 Rafale fighters from France in flyaway condition.

“The Request for Information (RFI) for selecting a new fighter aircraft is expected to be issued before the DefExpo in April. It will be an open tender and not limited to single-engine aircraft,” a defence official told The Hindu.


it seems to be one openended process
“The IAF has already evaluated all the aircraft in the MMRCA contest. So once the technical evaluation process starts, selection of one aircraft can be completed in two years. After that, it is the contract negotiations. Concluding the contract depends on how fast we can close it,” an IAF source said.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 12 Mar 2018 12:21

Is there any other AF today, which is conducting such a convoluted process to select a 4.5 Gen jet when 99% of the world is prepping for inducting 5Gen platforms?
Jai Ho IAF. Jai MOD.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nash » 12 Mar 2018 13:28

From the article
“After the AoN comes, we could either opt for a government-to-government deal or put out a tender. Both options are open at this stage,” said a senior officer tracking the air force’s modernisation on the condition of anonymity.


With G2G, process might take less time and all this may allow F-35 into the foray if it is available later.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 12 Mar 2018 16:57

Karan M wrote:Is there any other AF today, which is conducting such a convoluted process to select a 4.5 Gen jet when 99% of the world is prepping for inducting 5Gen platforms?
Jai Ho IAF. Jai MOD.

And we all thought the IAF was serious about the LCA Mk.2! Their action says otherwise. They don’t even have the budget to pay their current liabilities. One or the other has to give: imported planes or indigenous aircrafts. Budget not enough for both.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cosmo_R » 12 Mar 2018 18:40

HT. Angad Singh and Abhijit Iyer make this case

"But the real killer is control: India will not have control over anything on this plane — not the weapons, not the integration of new weapons, not even upgrading the threat database for the electronic warfare systems to jam forcing India to share our most sensitive signals intelligence with the US.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/ ... YRjAL.html

However, Israel has done just that and for a few shekels more, I'd bet they could rejig it for us (politically and electronically)

"It helps that the key piece of software Israel is adding to the F-35I (its official designation) won’t affect the airplane’s own software. It’s a free-standing, add-on app for what’s known as C4 systems—command, control, communications and computing. "


https://www.wired.com/2016/05/israel-ca ... least-now/

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Bart S » 12 Mar 2018 19:40

Cosmo_R wrote:HT. Angad Singh and Abhijit Iyer make this case

"But the real killer is control: India will not have control over anything on this plane — not the weapons, not the integration of new weapons, not even upgrading the threat database for the electronic warfare systems to jam forcing India to share our most sensitive signals intelligence with the US.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/ ... YRjAL.html


They make good points but the wrong conclusion. What should not be purchased is the S400 or any other Russian system, rather than the F35. This may be exactly why the Russians are pushing hard for the S400 deal.

Between homegrown and Israeli systems we can probably build a better system than the S400 and retain full control as well. Do we seriously want a PRC client state to control our strategic air defence?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby shiv » 12 Mar 2018 20:07

wig wrote:IAF to embark on a long shopping sortie for a jet
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... epage=true

In my view this is "space-filler" news. See and discard. means nothing. Gives no information.

20 and more years ago there were just general reporters who reported some defence stuff crappily once in a while. We now have dedicated defence reporters who need to keep producing columns. So the same old rubbish is rehashed and published as "new information" and no one knowns if the stuff is accurate. In any case this article will be forgotten in 2 days.

Speaking of news that is "forgotten" - the DPSA and AJT sagas also took decades. Tejas took decades. All this "single vendor" crap is bureaucratese for passing the file around. The only quick inductions we have had in 3 decades are MiG 23, Mirage 2000 and Su 30. "Single vendor blah blah" was never a problem.

Ironically - when BRF started - BRFites would mine for news and people came on here to read what people had found. Now there is so much "news" that we fill up thread after thread discussing stuff that goes exactly nowhere. As a joke I wonder it it would be a good idea to post only articles that are 1 week old :D - like Kannada movies are successful if they reach the second week.

Sorry - having a ramble....

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 12 Mar 2018 20:45

+108 Hakeem. Very good post.

Just for fun....take 114 and divide it by 2. The answer you get represents what? :)

Assuming - as Hakeem says about this news item - this filler-space article is even remotely true on the number aspect, expect any future aircraft purchase to be a joint purchase for the Air Force and the Navy. Going by that yardstick, only three aircraft are actually contenders.....

1) Rafale
2) F-18
3) F-35

Which of the above is the most likely to come? If you have any spent any significant time following this comedy show, you will know that nothing close to 114 birds will be coming for the IAF. As I have said before, what the services want and what the MoD actually loosens the purse strings for are two different things - night and day.

Also, what *EXACTLY* is the AMCA technology that the MoD is insisting on? It is the engine. That is the *KEY* technology.

The MiG-29K is here to stay and will be on the Vikramaditya and the Vikrant. The Vishaal will feature the Rafale M.

From the filler-space article in The Hindu. Just wait till post May 2019 and then everything will be out.

IAF to embark on a long shopping sortie for a jet
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... epage=true

One defence official observed that procuring at least two more squadrons of Rafale jets would make economic, operational and logistical sense as India is spending €2 billion on IAF-specific customisations and 36 is too small a number. “It makes logical sense and would save us money as the additional aircraft would cost less. But in the current political climate, it is not possible,” he said.


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