MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

[nachiket]

If this article below is true, the Russians likely offered this to Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh when he visited Russia last week.

Why Russia’s offer to build its elite Su-35 fighters in India could be very tempting for Delhi
https://www.defenceaviationpost.com/202 ... for-delhi/
It is the only fighter in the contest confirmed to be able to deploy hypersonic air to air missiles, and alongside the MiG-35 is the only fighter expected to deploy APAA guided missiles.

Admiral saab, that is so obviously a paid propaganda piece. Hypersonic AAM? Which the Su-35 can fire but the MKI conveniently cannot. Is this new magical hypersonic AAM larger than the AL Brahmos?

[Rakesh]

I don't buy the hypersonic missile either.

The Russians could have offered the plane - sans the hyperbole, hypersonic missile - as part of a sales pitch.

Every phoren country is trying to make a quick buck out of India's current predicament.

[sankum]

There is only one MRCA Rafale which will be bought in the lots of 44+36+34=114.
Rest is just FUD.

[brar_w]

There is only one MRCA Rafale which will be bought in the lots of 44+36+34=114. Rest is just FUD.

I highly doubt that it will happen this way. 36 rafale's by say 2025 and the remainder 34 by 2030? I don't see much point in receiving new built Rafales in 2030, given their price, knowing where the LCA MK1A and MWF will/should be at the time. If this was a decade ago, I'd agree but you really shouldn't be spending $100 Million on an importing 4+ gen fighter in 2030 when you have programs in house.

[srai]

If some money ($7-8 billion) available in a few years, 114 will distill to 36-44 Rafale G-2-G.

As is, money is tight. So it may just boil down to only purchasing some more Rafale reserves of say 10 units like it was done with the Mirage-2000 in the late 90s.

[Cain Marko]

If some money ($7-8 billion) available in a few years, 114 will distill to 36-44 Rafale G-2-G.

As is, money is tight. So it may just boil down to only purchasing some more Rafale reserves of say 10 units like it was done with the Mirage-2000 in the late 90s.

Why is money tight? India sits on more forex than it ever has... Time to loosen the purse strings a bit and get some major investments in Desi programs and crucial imports like 36 rafale, naval choppers, and mine sweepers. WTF is the point of having a huge forex reserve if you don't use it during a crisis.

[Cain Marko]

I don't buy the hypersonic missile either.

The Russians could have offered the plane - sans the hyperbole, hypersonic missile - as part of a sales pitch.

I'm not sure its hyperbole Admiral. The russkis do have a hypersonic AAM, the big ass r37m. Aka r77bd. Afaik it's already integrated on the mig31bm and has a range of > 300km @m6.

Tests were being carried out on the su35 iirc. They'll probly hold out unless they get something lucrative in return. Time to finalize super mki deal maybe...

[srai]

If some money ($7-8 billion) available in a few years, 114 will distill to 36-44 Rafale G-2-G.

As is, money is tight. So it may just boil down to only purchasing some more Rafale reserves of say 10 units like it was done with the Mirage-2000 in the late 90s.

Why is money tight? India sits on more forex than it ever has... Time to loosen the purse strings a bit and get some major investments in Desi programs and crucial imports like 36 rafale, naval choppers, and mine sweepers. WTF is the point of having a huge forex reserve if you don't use it during a crisis.

If the money wasn’t an issue ...
* 126 Rafales would be in production as part of MRCA-1
* 83 LCA MK.1A would be signed but now
etc ... list is long

[Cain Marko]

Why is money tight? India sits on more forex than it ever has... Time to loosen the purse strings a bit and get some major investments in Desi programs and crucial imports like 36 rafale, naval choppers, and mine sweepers. WTF is the point of having a huge forex reserve if you don't use it during a crisis.

If the money wasn’t an issue ...
* 126 Rafales would be in production as part of MRCA-1
* 83 LCA MK.1A would be signed but now
etc ... list is long

Money is not an issue imvho. A lackadaisical attitude (esp. With upa) and poor longterm thinking are more likely. Much of the money can be considered an investment in local mic, which will keep giving for decades to come....

[ldev]

Why is money tight? India sits on more forex than it ever has... Time to loosen the purse strings a bit and get some major investments in Desi programs and crucial imports like 36 rafale, naval choppers, and mine sweepers. WTF is the point of having a huge forex reserveif you don't use it during a crisis.

Forex reserve is not sovereign reserve. When you/exporter/inward remitter sends forex to India, RBI/your bank gives you the equivalent amount in INR. So the Forex is just the other side of the balance sheet balancing INR already issued in the domestic market. It is the Defence Budget that matters, spending has to come via that budget or via emergency spending both of which impact the overall budget of GOI.

[Cain Marko]

Why is money tight? India sits on more forex than it ever has... Time to loosen the purse strings a bit and get some major investments in Desi programs and crucial imports like 36 rafale, naval choppers, and mine sweepers. WTF is the point of having a huge forex reserveif you don't use it during a crisis.

Forex reserve is not sovereign reserve. When you/exporter/inward remitter sends forex to India, RBI/your bank gives you the equivalent amount in INR. So the Forex is just the other side of the balance sheet balancing INR already issued in the domestic market. It is the Defence Budget that matters, spending has to come via that budget or via emergency spending both of which impact the overall budget of GOI.

Yes but this emergency no? What better opportunity..

[abhik]

No Comment, just posting the link

Two US senators introduce legislations to strengthen India-US defence ties

Senator Cornyn, in another amendment to NDAA, asked the Defence Secretary to provide India a briefing on the fifth-generation fighter jets programme of the US within 180 days of the passage of the legislation.

[Rakesh]

And there comes the Fancy Cornish Hen

[Cain Marko]

Aha so my fantasy silver bullet force slowly takes shape. Yes. Very good.

[idan]

If this article below is true, the Russians likely offered this to Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh when he visited Russia last week.

Why Russia’s offer to build its elite Su-35 fighters in India could be very tempting for Delhi
https://www.defenceaviationpost.com/202 ... for-delhi/
It is the only fighter in the contest confirmed to be able to deploy hypersonic air to air missiles, and alongside the MiG-35 is the only fighter expected to deploy APAA guided missiles.

Admiral saab, that is so obviously a paid propaganda piece. Hypersonic AAM? Which the Su-35 can fire but the MKI conveniently cannot. Is this new magical hypersonic AAM larger than the AL Brahmos?

Su 35 is a superb fighter and the pièce de résistance is it’s low RCS (between 1 - 3 sq metres)

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articl ... 08649.html

[brar_w]

Admiral saab, that is so obviously a paid propaganda piece. Hypersonic AAM? Which the Su-35 can fire but the MKI conveniently cannot. Is this new magical hypersonic AAM larger than the AL Brahmos?

Su 35 is a superb fighter and the pièce de résistance is it’s low RCS (between 1 - 3 sq metres)

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articl ... 08649.html

How does that change with weapons and a targeting pod?

[vishvak]

How about MiG 35 then.
Unit cost: US$50 million from wiki chacha online.

[nachiket]

Admiral saab, that is so obviously a paid propaganda piece. Hypersonic AAM? Which the Su-35 can fire but the MKI conveniently cannot. Is this new magical hypersonic AAM larger than the AL Brahmos?

Su 35 is a superb fighter and the pièce de résistance is it’s low RCS (between 1 - 3 sq metres)

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articl ... 08649.html

1. What does its rcs have to do with the question I asked?

2. What djinn physics did the Russians use to reduce its rcs to 1-3 sqm from around 20 without any stealth shaping whatsoever? And what happens to that rcs when you hang bombs and missiles under the wings and fuselage? If it was that easy to reduce rcs that drastically just using a few coats of RAM, they wouldn't be spending billions on building the Su-57.

Please do not believe every type of brochure propaganda you read on the internet.

[Rakesh]

I don't buy the hypersonic missile either.

The Russians could have offered the plane - sans the hyperbole, hypersonic missile - as part of a sales pitch.

I'm not sure its hyperbole Admiral. The russkis do have a hypersonic AAM, the big ass r37m. Aka r77bd. Afaik it's already integrated on the mig31bm and has a range of > 300km @m6.

Tests were being carried out on the su35 iirc. They'll probly hold out unless they get something lucrative in return. Time to finalize super mki deal maybe...

Why buy Su-35, if Su-30MKI can do the same thing?

[Cain Marko]

They'll probly hold out unless they get something lucrative in return. Time to finalize super mki deal maybe...

Why buy Su-35, if Su-30MKI can do the same thing?

I'm not saying that the 35 needs to be purchased, I'm saying that the missile exists. And the mki/sm is definitely considered a potential platform, even by the russkis. The bars might need a tweak or two but doable IMHO.

Thing is, they will try to extract a piece of the pie and that's why we have noises about the 35. Our response should be to dangle the carrot of the mki upgrade with possible purchases of fulcrums and 12 mki. Of course under the current circumstances, they have a bit of a negotiation advantage... We can thank our wonderfully criminal procurement process for that.

[brar_w]

Why buy Su-35, if Su-30MKI can do the same thing?

I'm not saying that the 35 needs to be purchased, I'm saying that the missile exists. And the mki/sm is definitely considered a potential platform, even by the russkis. The bars might need a tweak or two but doable IMHO.

Thing is, they will try to extract a piece of the pie and that's why we have noises about the 35. Our response should be to dangle the carrot of the mki upgrade with possible purchases of fulcrums and 12 mki. Of course under the current circumstances, they have a bit of a negotiation advantage... We can thank our wonderfully criminal procurement process for that.

Who else operates the SU-35 besides Russia? What access do they have to the platform? and the ability of the Russians to "dangle" carrots like weapons and other upgrades?

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/10/ ... vel-a67852

[Karan M]

And this from a retired Su-30MKI pilot of the Indian Air Force....

https://twitter.com/sajaniaf/status/127 ... 13985?s=20 ----> Brothers of the same blood. MKI, MKK, MKM are all same except avionics customised for India, China & Malaysia respectively. Su-35 marginally better in performance. Single seat, extra fuel, lighter radar.

The MKK is nothing like the MKI/MKM though. Avionics apart, many changes in the airframe/propulsion itself - canards, TVC etc. Su-35 also brings in a significantly newer avionics suite.

[Roop]

... Avionics apart, many changes in the airframe/propulsion itself - canards, TVC etc.

So MKK doesn't have TVC / canards?

Su-35 also brings in a significantly newer avionics suite.

Does it have AESA?

[Rakesh]

Does it have AESA?

Irbis-E PESA

[Cain Marko]

So MKK doesn't have TVC / canards?

No canards, no tvc. Not the same engines. No pesa. Less payload. Bvr and wvr, its not the same. .

The 35 is one step away from the mki: apart from what Karan and Rakesh said,
3d tvc, powerful engines, no canards, lighter frame, higher internal fuel, eft capacity, greater payload.

[Cain Marko]

I'm not saying that the 35 needs to be purchased, I'm saying that the missile exists. And the mki/sm is definitely considered a potential platform, even by the russkis. The bars might need a tweak or two but doable IMHO.

Thing is, they will try to extract a piece of the pie and that's why we have noises about the 35. Our response should be to dangle the carrot of the mki upgrade with possible purchases of fulcrums and 12 mki. Of course under the current circumstances, they have a bit of a negotiation advantage... We can thank our wonderfully criminal procurement process for that.

Who else operates the SU-35 besides Russia? What access do they have to the platform? and the ability of the Russians to "dangle" carrots like weapons and other upgrades?

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/10/ ... vel-a67852

True enough. But they know we are more needy presently, so they'll certainly try for larger contracts.

[Rakesh]

Who else operates the SU-35 besides Russia? What access do they have to the platform? and the ability of the Russians to "dangle" carrots like weapons and other upgrades?

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/10/ ... vel-a67852

True enough. But they know we are more needy presently, so they'll certainly try for larger contracts.

Wiki says Indonesia has ordered 11, Egypt has ordered 24, China has 24 and Russia has 88.

But as of today, only China and Russia actually operate them.

[mahadevbhu]

I think that we should have chosen the F16 simply because it sends a signal to the Chinese apart from being available in numbers and speed and price.

[ldev]

So MKK doesn't have TVC / canards?

No canards, no tvc. Not the same engines. No pesa. Less payload. Bvr and wvr, its not the same. .

The 35 is one step away from the mki: apart from what Karan and Rakesh said,
3d tvc, powerful engines, no canards, lighter frame, higher internal fuel, eft capacity, greater payload.

China no longer buys Russian aircraft for bulking up squadron strength/numbers. Rather they are bought to benchmark Chinese progress in airframe design, avionics, engines etc and improve the Chinese copies of the original Russian aircraft e.g. the PLAAF has 76 SU-30MKK, bought from Russia, but based on that they made almost 350 copies in the form of the J-11A and J-11B. Now China has bought 24 SU-35s. Russia was so worried about China making copies of them that they insisted that China buy at least 48 if they wanted a deal. But that condition was overuled by Putin and he agreed to the Chinese demand to buy only 24. The SU-35 has been bought so that China can benchmark the progress they have made in the latest homegrown version of the Flanker series, the J-11D. The J-11D has 3D thrust vectoring WS-10A engines like the SU-35, it has more composites in it's construction vs the SU-35 and it has an AESA radar vs a PESA radar for the SU-35. Improvements will be made to the J-11D based on the study and operation of the SU-35 with the PLAAF for the last 12-18 months before the J-11D enters series production.

[brar_w]

That’s a good description of their strategy. They are learning a little, stealing a little and probably paying, Russia (Russians) on the side to produce these clones which are likely a mix of their learnings from their Russian gear and what is coming out of their own 4th and 5th gen programs. Would their future Su-35 clone be as capable as the 24 Su-35s they are getting? Tough to tell but pretty reasonable to assume their track record of copying flanker designs and their own mission systems programs across multiple families of combat aircraft, drones, AEW etc that they’ll like get at least 80% or the way there. But whatever J series variant comes out of their SU-35 deal will likely be produced in much higher quantities than just 24 aircraft. Same with the S-400. They won’t procure it on a large scale but will likely spiral some of the learnings and what they can take into their own series or AD systems. They have a large enough defense and national security budget to continue to pour tremendous amounts of cash into their organic research and development / copying units and teams while also pursuing these small strategic buys which likely conceal tacit approvals for some sort of domestic absorption of production.

[idan]

China cannot blatantly clone Flankers without the approval of Russians. The relationship exists beyong simple buyer - seller. Russian designers work hand in glove with Chinese and China must be cofunding some of Russia's latest product development.

[TushS]

Why is money tight? India sits on more forex than it ever has... Time to loosen the purse strings a bit and get some major investments in Desi programs and crucial imports like 36 rafale, naval choppers, and mine sweepers. WTF is the point of having a huge forex reserveif you don't use it during a crisis.

Forex reserve is not sovereign reserve. When you/exporter/inward remitter sends forex to India, RBI/your bank gives you the equivalent amount in INR. So the Forex is just the other side of the balance sheet balancing INR already issued in the domestic market. It is the Defence Budget that matters, spending has to come via that budget or via emergency spending both of which impact the overall budget of GOI.

Technically, it's not exactly right. Suppose you bought an USD @ 65 INR, but the now the price of USD is 75 INR, then you have a profit of @10 INR. So while shopping internationally, a forex reserve helps a govt indirectly in balance of payments, leaving aside much worry about fluctuations in value of domestic money or in simple language a much comforting pitch to play. Correct me if I am wrong.

[ldev]

China cannot blatantly clone Flankers without the approval of Russians. The relationship exists beyong simple buyer - seller. Russian designers work hand in glove with Chinese and China must be cofunding some of Russia's latest product development.

I think the Russians know that China will copy the designs, the question I guess is what is the price. So there is a monetary price, Putin agreed to 24 undercutting his own export organization Rosoboronexport and the factory that wanted a minimum of 48 units sold. I think that the Russian bargaining position vs China is now so bad that they really have very little option but to go with what China wants.

[idan]

China cannot blatantly clone Flankers without the approval of Russians. The relationship exists beyong simple buyer - seller. Russian designers work hand in glove with Chinese and China must be cofunding some of Russia's latest product development.

I think the Russians know that China will copy the designs, the question I guess is what9 is the price. So there is a monetary price, Putin agreed to 24 undercutting his own export organization Rosoboronexport and the factory that wanted a minimum of 48 units sold. I think that the Russian bargaining position vs China is now so bad that they really have very little option but to go with what China wants.

Russia is a very rich country, low population and very rich in natural resources. Putin is under no compulsion when dealing with the Chinese. It is just geopolitics.

[idan]

I'm not sure its hyperbole Admiral. The russkis do have a hypersonic AAM, the big ass r37m. Aka r77bd. Afaik it's already integrated on the mig31bm and has a range of > 300km @m6.

Tests were being carried out on the su35 iirc. They'll probly hold out unless they get something lucrative in return. Time to finalize super mki deal maybe...

Why buy Su-35, if Su-30MKI can do the same thing?

Pardon my ignorance, you need two pilots (PiC + WSO) to fly a combat mission in Su 30MKI. If you compare that with single pilot operated Su 35 isn't that itself a great advantage - have more trained pilots to fly more aircraft? Also, the pilot workload is significantly reduced due to superior avionics as compared to Su 30MKI (as you say both can do the same thing). Su 35 offers a smooth upgrade and road map to 5th gen. Maneuverability is superb as well.

[brar_w]

Su 35 offers a smooth upgrade and road map to 5th gen.

There is a lot to unpack there. Why would anyone want to create a "roadmap" to 5th gen when they can acquire 5th gen? And between, the Rafale, MWF, and eventual MKI upgrades in the next 5-10 years, why would anyone advocate introducing yet another type to get to 5th gen? I can understand this argument and logic being used (beyond marketing departments of fighter OEM's) in the 2000's as 5GFA were not available or in development. There you could say that "product X comes with a 5GFA inspired cockpit, AESA radar, advanced EW etc." and can be pitched as a transitioning type to 5GFA a couple of decades down the road. This is essentially what the UAE did with its advanced F-16 block 60's, in the 2000-2005 timeframe, which shared some of the mission system development and production facilities and cockpit technology with the F-22 for example. But in 2020 that argument looses value when you can just as well spend the money on buying actual 5GFA . Russia has seriously dialed down work on the PAKFA, which is expecting just 1-2 serially produced aircraft in 2020, but eventually they'll get to a mature system that exists in decent numbers and has a roadmap of upgrades and enhancements (probably closer to 2030). Just buy it then.

The world is beginning development of 6GFA and here we are talking about a road map to 5GFA.

[srai]

Su-35
Not going to happen.

IAF has already invested in 13/14 squadrons of Su-30MKI in the heavy category. 1/3 of planned 42 squadrons. No plans for buying more in this category.

Desired growth area is in the medium category segment where the bulk of the fleet will be made up of. 13/14 squadrons are setup/ordered currently. Future targeted acquisitions are for 6 more squadrons through the MRCA-3.

Light category is being restricted to 6 LCA Tejas MK.1/A.

[idan]

Sukhoi swarm ... what next? Autonomous Su-57 I presume!

Russian Su-57 jet controls Su-35 aircraft ‘Swarm’ in teaming experiment
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/27298 ... vzaZZNKiqk
28 June 2020

A Russian Su-57 stealth jet controlled a group of Su-35 front-line fighter in a teaming experiment designed to function as a ‘swarm’ in a coordinated attack mission.

"The experiment was carried out in real combat conditions. A group of Su-35 fighters was involved in the flock, the role of the command and control aircraft was performed by the Su-57," news agency TASS reported quoting sources from Russia’s ‘military-industrial complex.’

Sources explained to TASS that use of a "swarm” operating in a single information space, significantly increases the efficiency of combat missions. The place and date of the experiment was not specified.

The report did not describe what ‘real combat conditions’ meant. Whether the jet swarm was tested in simulated battle conditions at home or in Syria where Russia has previously conducted several tactical experiments involving the Su-57.

[brar_w]

Can journalists not take a few minutes and just get educated on what "swarming" means in this context? And why this isn't it.

[Rakesh]

New Fighters for the Indian Air Force: Answers and More Questions