MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 10 Apr 2018 14:20

BK poses a v.good Q!
https://bharatkarnad.com/2018/04/06/wha ... s-rfi-for/
What aircraft is this RFI for?
Posted on April 6, 2018 by Bharat Karnad

An RFI for 110 combat aircraft was today issued by IAF without clarifying whether these are to be single engine or two-engine fighter planes. There re some technical criteria — altitude ceiling, etc. that mean nothing because most modern aircraft will meet them. It goes on to say that of these 82-83 aircraft would be single seat and the rest 2-seat trainer aircraft, and that the deal would be on the basis of a strategic partnership model — with the foreign aircraft supplier collaborating with a capable Indian industry major to set up a manufacturing facility to produce 93-94 of the 110 aircraft in India, including supply chains in-country, and the remaining 16 aircraft bought off the shelf. This will mean that any aircraft producer in the world that has a single engine or 2-engine fighter plane to sell will now hightail it to Delhi. :rotfl:

So, what are the aircraft that will be on offer? To list the aircraft that fits this general bill the list will have F-16 (Lockheed), F-18 (Boeing) from the US, Gripen E (Saab) from Sweden, Typhoon Eurofighter (EADS) from Germany, Rafale (Dassault) from France, and Su-35, MiG-35 and the Su-57 FGFA from Russia. And had China been in the mix, it could have brought in its J-20!

There is method in the way the RFI is crafted. It (1) alienates no country or potential aircraft supplier — the rescinding of the plan to buy 114 single engine warplanes for Rs 1.15 lakh crores upended the schemes for the production in India of the F-16 that IAF doesn’t want, Lockheed was flogging, and which upset the Trump Administration; this RFI is a sort of corrective, (2) compensates for Modi’s buy of 36 Rafales from France for the same amount of money as was set aside for 126 of the MMRCA with transfer of technology, which justly drew flack and plunged the Modi government in hot water, (3) reassures the IAF which has been squawking nonstop about depleting fighter squadrons in its fleet, & (4) kicks the decision to buy a combat aircraft way down the road and well after the 2019 general elections. :rotfl:

It is obvious the option IAF would prefer is to add 110 more Rafales. Dassault having pocketed $12 billion for 36 of these would be happy to sell the rest for another $20-$30 billion with TOT. And well connected Reliance Defence is already chosen as its strategic partner. :mrgreen:

F-16, Eurofighter, and MiG-35 didn’t cut it in the MMRCA sweepstakes, their chances are unlikely to be revived this time around. That reduces the competition to the Russian Su-57 and Rafale. (Su-35 doesn’t count because it is about on par with the Su-30MKI upgraded to the “super Sukhoi” configuration, inclusive of 3-D thrust vectoring nozzle, AESA radar, etc.).

But India has already invested some $300 million in the FGFA and as part of the collaboration deal can place its aircraft designers at the Sukhoi design Bureau to pick design trends and new technologies. This will be useful in terms of the trained Indian designers being tasked to the AMCA programme.

As with TOT provisions in past contracts, Rafale TOT will come with the advanced technologies as “black boxes” — which is not helpful, and force structuring-wise will not fit in with a future coherent air orbat — of the Tejas Mk-2, AMCA, super Su-30 and FGFA.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 11 Apr 2018 04:01

Full of lies by Bharat Karnad. I'm losing respect for him very rapidly with these sort of articles. $12 billion for 36 Rafales? Can't he even do some basic research? :roll:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Dileep » 11 Apr 2018 07:43

I think I figured this out.

The RFI is to compile all the available options with all the detailed performance figures from the official sources, so that it can be objectively proven that our own 'three legged cheetahs' actually can compete. No more 'ppts' that match ferry range of gora with 'fully loaded combat radius' of desi. :twisted:

Brilliant!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby JayS » 11 Apr 2018 08:34

Dileep wrote:I think I figured this out.

The RFI is to compile all the available options with all the detailed performance figures from the official sources, so that it can be objectively proven that our own 'three legged cheetahs' actually can compete. No more 'ppts' that match ferry range of gora with 'fully loaded combat radius' of desi. :twisted:

Brilliant!


I hope SQR for MK2 wont be an ensemble of max of each parameter collected from all the RFI responses.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cosmo_R » 11 Apr 2018 20:40

Rakesh wrote:...

Six aircraft? :lol: HAL is well on her way to producing 16 aircraft a year by 2019. What are you talking about?


How many will they produce in 2018? and in 2019. How many did they commit to producing in 2017. They may be "well on their way" but how long is the road? Sorry no emojis

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2018 22:14

Posted by BRF Member sudeepj

------------------------------------------

Rakesh wrote:
Austin wrote:What did IAF do till date to build an "Indian" AF , It reluctantly ageed to buy Tejas at one time it called 3 legged cheetha ....MOD screwed up but so did IAF , for as long as IAF get its fighters and bombs it does not bother in building industrial base.

From where do you the think the IAF got that mindset? It is not the IAF's job to build an industrial base. That is the GOI's job. What have they done? Where was the GOI these past 70+ years? The IAF's job is to defend the airspace and take the fight to the enemy.


Quite frankly, this is rubbish. Any serious war fighting force has to make sure it has the industrial capability to wage war. That is the way it has been in every world power, in every time domain. IAF has the mindset that it can simply buy weapons off the shelf off some great power, shoot down some Paki flyboys, get medals, reap adulation from junta and call it a day. Even the politicians have a better concept of national power and the use of violence to attain national goals.

I am yet to see a commitment towards or an understanding of the technological-industrial aspects of war fighting from the IAF or the Army. Navy 'gets it' and the Army/Airforce are beginning to get it.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2018 22:16

Posted by BRF Member Singha

------------------------------------------

[Poof]

Singha your rant is unwarranted.

I am deleting this broad brush stroke stereotyping.
Next time will have to follow the process and give out warning.
Last edited by ramana on 12 Apr 2018 02:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2018 22:27

Cosmo_R wrote:How many will they produce in 2018? and in 2019. How many did they commit to producing in 2017. They may be "well on their way" but how long is the road? Sorry no emojis

They have delivered 8 birds so far in the past two years (not including SP-1, which happened in 2014). See below. Dates below are all first flights, but are spot on, as a few trial flights are done before delivery to the squadron. And that does not take eons.

Line 1 ... SP-1 ... LA-5001 ... 01-Oct-14
Line 1 ... SP-2 ... LA-5002 ... 22-Mar-16
Line 1 ... SP-3 ... LA-5003 ... 28-Sep-16
Line 1 ... SP-4 ... LA-5004 ... 03-Mar-17
Line 2 ... SP-5 ... LA-5005 ... 08-Feb-18
Line 1 ... SP-6 ... LA-5006 ... 30-Jun-17
Line 1 ... SP-7 ... LA-5007 ... 12-Dec-17
Line 2 ... SP-8 ... LA-5008 ... 13-Mar-18
Line 1 ... SP-9 ... LA-5009 ... 24-Mar-18

By 2019, this will more or less be the production output...from page 11 of the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A thread....

Indranil wrote:
Kartik wrote:So its not from the new Hawk assembly line (with slated capacity of 8 per annum) as Saurav Jha put it? But rather from the first line (capacity 5 per annum) and then transferred to the Kiran hangar assembly line (capacity 3 per annum). Am I right in understanding this?

No Saurav has got it right. The two lines are as follows:

Line 1: full capacity = 8 aircraft per year: 5 at "LCA division" and 3 "Kiran hangar".
Line 2: full capacity = 8 aircraft per year at "Aircraft division" which is basically the erstwhile Hawk production line.

How many F-16s or F-18s do you forsee coming in 2018 or 2019 or even 2020, into the IAF? Same with Typhoon, Gripen E (and even Rafale). How will this RFI address the squadron shortage?

The last time I checked 8 > 0 :)

I am not convinced that any of the planes (incl the Rafale) will address the squadron shortage in the IAF. This is not a Hollywood fantasy story, where the damsel is in distress (IAF) and America saves the day (via LM or Boeing) and we all sing the Star Spangled Banner.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2018 22:34

sudeepj wrote:
Rakesh wrote:From where do you the think the IAF got that mindset? It is not the IAF's job to build an industrial base. That is the GOI's job. What have they done? Where was the GOI these past 70+ years? The IAF's job is to defend the airspace and take the fight to the enemy.

Quite frankly, this is rubbish. Any serious war fighting force has to make sure it has the industrial capability to wage war. That is the way it has been in every world power, in every time domain. IAF has the mindset that it can simply buy weapons off the shelf off some great power, shoot down some Paki flyboys, get medals, reap adulation from junta and call it a day. Even the politicians have a better concept of national power and the use of violence to attain national goals.

I am yet to see a commitment towards or an understanding of the technological-industrial aspects of war fighting from the IAF or the Army. Navy 'gets it' and the Army/Airforce are beginning to get it.

Then tell the MoD to cancel the RFI. Why even hold this competition in the first place? If the IAF has that mindset, it is the job of the GoI / MoD to advise the IAF otherwise. Throw the RFI out.

You will not get any commitment, unless phoren options are on the table. Throw the RFI out.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2018 22:38

Singha wrote:Poof

Good luck with that Singha. You let me know how that plan works out.

The Prime Minister's Office does not know the difference between a Rafale, a F-18 or a Tejas if their lives depended on it. So easy to say things like be onboard Team India or get out.

Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa has certainly endorsed the SEF competition, as he spoke about it during an IAF press meet, at the last October IAF Day celebration. Are we expecting the PMO to now retire the Air Chief, because he is not aboard Team India? Who else are we going to retire?

On what basis are you going to *RETIRE* the folks pushing the SEF dalali tender? There has to be a legal standing Singha. You want to retire top brass in the IAF, after the GoI directs the MoD to ask the IAF to issue a RFI for a tender for 110 fighters?

So when the IAF wanted new fighters, did anyone in the GoI/MoD ask the IAF this?

1) Can we not acquire a few more squadrons of the same platforms in (or soon to join) service? Is a new type really necessary?
2) If serviceability of current platforms are not up to desired levels, what steps are needed to be undertaken to improve them?
3) Can we not upgrade our current platforms to make them more potent i.e. MiG-29UPG, Mirage 2000-9, Jaguar Darin III, Super Sukhoi.
4) What steps are needed to improve pilot intake and training syllabus, so a greater sortie rate can be generated from a single plane?
5) Can we not invest in improving the production of Line 1 and Line 2 of the Tejas single-engined fighter?
6) If Mk1A is delayed, can we continue with Mk1 production? Since the Mk1 can be converted into the Mk1A anyway.

A single Tejas line costs $200 million. That is peanuts for the MoD to fund. PEANUTS! But they are willing to entertain the idea to spend $15 billion in acquiring 110 phoren fighters. As I said earlier, why blame the teenager...when the parents themselves have no clue!
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2018 23:21

From Abhibhushan Saar in the Tejas thread. Why do we need this RFI again? :)

Abhibhushan wrote:To celebrate completion of 65 years of commissioned service and 50 years since assuming my first command of an operational unit, visited the Flying Daggers for tea and crew room Gup.

The boys are all experienced pilots.
Boys come from varied backgrounds. M2K,Jaguar, Mig29, Mig27 are all represented. Soon there will be boys from SU30MKI as well. The boys were all very upbeat about their present mount.

Some snippets from crew room chatter.

— the Mk1 is better than Unupgraded M2K
— talk about difficulties with maintenance exaggerated
— intensive operations tried out successfully
— lots of scope to increase its might.
— if it is compared with all other fighters in the IAF for all-round ability, it will easily be within the top third of the list.


A very happy day for me.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 12 Apr 2018 00:05

We will offer the latest F/A-18: Boeing India Chief
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 505309.ece

Boeing is hopeful of grabbing the $15-billion deal to sell 110 fighter jets to the Indian Air Force (IAF) by offering its latest and most advanced F/A-18 Super Hornet. In an interview with BusinessLine on the sidelines of the DefExpo 2018, Boeing India President Pratyush Kumar said that the company will be offering its latest twin-engine F/A-18 Super Hornet to India, the price of which will be much cheaper than the French Rafale. He also said the fact that the RFI - this time - puts emphasis on the operational aspect of the fighters than technical specifications makes it more interesting. Kumar also said Boeing is set to build the F/A-18s in India under the ‘Make in India’ programme should it get the order to supply the entire 110 warplanes. Excerpts:

Q. The Indian Air Force has finally issued the long-awaited request for information (RFI) to procure 110 fighters under a $15-billion deal. Will Boeing be offering the F/A-18 Super Hornets?
A. Yes, we will. I think it is a well thought out RFI. It broadens the aperture without restricting the number of engines which will make the competition much more vigorous and give Indian Air Force the option to consider different platforms with different capabilities. What I really like about this RFI is that it asks about the kind of operational requirements that they need to have rather than technical specifications. With too much focus on technical specifications, the operational part gets ignored.

Q. Why do you say that?
A. Well as the world is moving beyond visual range war fighting, it can’t be doing specs based on dogfight. That’s so anachronistic. So it is a very progressive RFI in that sense. We are excited about it. I think it really fits well with our strategy with the Navy which has RFI for 57 multi-role carrier-borne fighters. So, I think what I like about it is that the Ministry of Defence is actually thinking about the skill economy and how can we line up the opportunities.

Q. But don’t you see this as a replay of the scrapped $20-billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) tender that happened in 2008?
A. To say that this is a replay of the MMRCA is a convenient and easy shorthand for people. I would say that the operational requirements have evolved, the threats have evolved and technologies have evolved and the capability in the country has evolved. So 10 years later, we are sitting in a different place than we were 10 years ago. I think this RFI is going to reflect a more contemporary situation today. It talks about beyond the visual range capability, it has also factored in the per flight hour cost and the cost of operating the aircraft. It also talks about how to create business of scale to build the ecosystem in India for the full production of the aircraft. Ten years ago, they were talking about licensed production with HAL. So, I think it will be a lazy characterisation to call it MMRCA 2.0.

Q. F/A-18 Super Hornet was ruled out during the MMRCA. What is new that you have to offer to the Air Force?
A. We are talking about offering the latest F/A-18 to India. The current competition will be much more on what will be the operational requirement versus technical requirements. We feel comfortable given the evolution of F/A-18 which has been constantly upgraded.

Q. What if the Air Force asks for certain customisation of the planes?
A. We are willing to make those customisations as well, if there will be any.

Q. Air Force will soon be getting deliveries of the twin-engine Rafale jets. Do you think the competition for F/A-18, as a result of that, increases should the Air Force plan to buy those?
A. We do think Rafale is a real competition. But Rafale is also expensive and even more expensive to maintain. F/A-18 is battle-proven, ruggedised, lowest cost per flight hours in the inventory by US government studies and it is even cheaper than the single-engine fighters in the US inventory. So it is a different platform and the survivability of our platforms is much better than Rafale.

Q. As per the RFI, out of 110 warplanes, 94 aircraft have to be built in India. Are you willing to set up an entire production line for the F/A-18 here?
A. Our plan is to set up a plant in India and then develop a supply chain to feed our plant. So, yes, we are willing to build it in India.

Q. But will it be doable under the present Trump administration?
A. We have in-principle approval from the Department of Defence (of US Government) on that concept. And we see this as a win-win situation for both countries.

Q. What is a comfortable number for you to manufacture the planes here?
A. Well, 110 is a good number.

Q. So, you are hoping that the entire order will go to you …
A. Well, the RFI says that whosoever wins will get the entire 110.

Q. And what about transfer of technology (ToT), which always remains a contentious issue?
A. ToT is always up for discussion, but the RFI asks for very specific points on the issue. We will respond to that. But we feel that we have reached a stage in the relationship between the two countries that ToT should not be a factor anymore. This is because US recognises India as its ‘Major Defence Partner’ and they are much more forward leaning and sharing technology with India. It is a government-to-government discussion so I cannot speak on behalf of the government but I feel encouraged given the way the relationship is going.

Q. What is your view on the long-drawn process to procure the fighters at a time when the Air Force is in dire need of those?
A. Speed always helps but these are also complex decision-making procurement processes. This is not a simple thing to acquire. I know you have to optimise your purchases within the budget constraints. You have to keep it an unimpeachable process so that nobody questions the procurement process. It is not something that we have not dealt with before, but frankly a good process will be good for all.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 12 Apr 2018 00:06

^^^ Addressing squadron shortage? :lol:

Also, see below.... :roll:

Process to buy 110 fighters is rerun of UPA-era tender, with few tweaks
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2018/ ... i-126.html

"IAF's new programme is more or less similar to the original MMRCA project. The only difference I could see is the Strategic Partnership clause, in which the lead partner will be an Indian company to set up the production line. Besides, a clause of 70 per cent service availability has also been included in the new programme. But, if everything goes well, it will take at least five-seven years to finalise the contract. By this calculation, we cannot expect anything before 2023," says retired Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur. In the original MMRCA contract, 18 aircraft were to come off-the-shelf and the remaining 108 were to be built in India.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Avtar Singh » 12 Apr 2018 01:08

Poof.

ramana
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Apr 2018 08:10

Behold, US is going to give the technology to India that it hasnt given to anyone in May. I mean these people start having wet dreams at any indicative indication of western people
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 721820.cms

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 13 Apr 2018 06:22

From the Boeing /HAL/Mahindra JV announcement for F18

The Super Hornet 'Make in India' proposal is to build an entirely new and state-of-the-art production facility that can be utilized for other programme like India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programme, the company said .


What next? Offering avionics/radar and other F 35 based technology being used in latest F18 for the AMCA to tout commonality and as the next logical step for IAF?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 13 Apr 2018 20:29

Posting only the relevant pieces from the link below - quotes from Defence Minister Sitharaman - as the rest of the article is filler.

Moral of the Story - You can't force the armed forces to buy anything they do not want.

And also look at the next post - right below this one.

Can't force the armed forces to buy weapons 'Made in India': Sitharaman
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 714161.cms

Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman on Wednesday said the government cannot walk a thin line to compel Indian armed forces to buy indigenous weapons, after she opened a major defence trade fair that projects India - world's biggest global arms importer - as one of the major military equipment manufacturing hubs.

Asked about the huge export-import gap in the defence sector of a country that does not even figure among the top 25 exporters of arms with even its own forces hesitating to buy locally-manufactured weapon systems, Sitharaman said she could only tell the Indian armed forces to procure from indigenous companies as much as possible. She said she could not cross a thin line to impinge on the freedom of the Indian Army, the Indian Air Force or the Indian Navy to make their own decisions as per their operational requirements.

"When I am promoting Indian exports, Indian manufacturing, I am also telling the forces to procure domestically as much as possible. I would want to draw a thin line between the government's enthusiasm to make sure the production capabilities are such that they meet international standards and are export worthy and the other side of the line where the Army, Navy or Air Force make their decision on what they want, what combination of equipment they want and in that combination if an India-produced-item fits in well. I can only go that far and not further, just as they can only go that far and not further without compromising each others' interests. I can't imagine prevailing upon them. We will only want them to give space to local manufacturers and buy indigenous products."

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 13 Apr 2018 20:29

Now this is an interesting piece. Interesting, because of his breakdown. This piece is by Air Marshal P S Ahluwalia (Retd). Served as AOC Western Air Command and if memory serves me right, a Mirage 2000 pilot.

What we know about IAF's upgrade plans with made-in-India aircraft
https://www.dailyo.in/variety/indian-ai ... 23388.html

Here's my assessment following informed discussions:

• The number of 110 (fighter aircraft) was reached at basically to keep it less than 126 aircraft. This is to avoid going to the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) for approval again. The DAC has already approved procurement of 126 aircraft.

• The IAF will retire 11 squadrons of Mig-21 and Mig-27 aircraft by 2022. This corresponds to approximately 200 aircraft. From 2027 to 2032, nine squadrons of MiG-29 and Jaguars will be retired. This would correspond to approximately 162 aircraft (one squadron has 18 aircraft). In effect, the IAF would need 362 (162 plus 200) aircraft, by 2032. These numbers would be required to retain the present strength of 32 squadrons. The IAF has pitched for 42 squadrons to face a "collusive threat" from Pakistan and China. This is not likely to be accepted by the government due to cost implications.

• It is probable that the government will clear another urgent procurement of 36 Rafale. This would be due to cost factor reduction to only 60% of the first batch of Rafale aircraft. Maintenance facilities have been initially procured for two bases. The same would be sufficient to support another two squadrons (36 aircraft).

• The overall picture is as follows. The IAF will need a total of 362 fighter aircraft by 2032, to maintain the present strength of 32 fighter squadrons. These numbers would consist of 76 Rafale plus 110 (fresh RFI) in addition to 176 indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA). The figures are broad-based but indicative of likely accruals.

• The previous MMRCA evaluation (from 2007 to 2012) for five years will be the base for fresh evaluation.

• The RFI will be utilised to establish the minimum QR.

• No evaluation for Rafale and Eurofighter, which had passed selection during the last MMRCA selections.

• "Delta Evaluation" norms will be followed. This implies that items in which they had failed earlier will be reassessed.

• Gripen E was not evaluated and only the C and D versions were assessed. F-16 block to will be evaluated. F/A 18 is the same as offered earlier.

• Mig-35 does not seem to be in the competitions. I hope this is true!

• The procurement will follow the G2G process. Quicker Acquisition

• The IAF will give the choice of aircraft and the government will select the "strategic partner".

• Price will be an overriding factor.

• There is no constraint of single or twin engine. The QR will be the prime consideration. The selection could be of a single engine or twin engine or both.

• Finally, considering the overall factors, including pricing and QR criteria, in my view, the Gripen E and F/A–18 Super Hornet could be the front-runners. The Indian Navy is also inclined to favour the F/A–18 for deck operations. Their requirement is for 50 aircraft.

• The flying evaluations will only be on paper as they have already been completed during the MMRCA selection. This would reduce the selection process time considerably.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 13 Apr 2018 22:34

What a mess. While whole world is moving to 5Gen, IAF is busy asking the MOD to bankrupt its capex for 4.5 Gen birds via the MRCA for likely the same cost implications and the MOD is actively egging them on. We should be looking at either the F-35 or Su-57 or equivalents and not the non stealth fighters which even NATO is tacitly moving away from.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Apr 2018 22:50

^ his calculations seem a bit strange...
Current strength....32sqds includes 11 sqds of floggers and fishbeds? Can't be right. He further obfuscates the situation by suggesting a need for 362 fighters just to maintain the 32sqd number WTF?

Between mki 14 sqds, jag 6 sqds, 3 baaz, 3 vajra, 6 bison we get 32 sqds right here. Replace bisons with 2 Rafale, 6 Tejas mk1 and mk1a sqds and the strength goes up to 34 sqds.

Around 2027, as jags and fulcrums, 9 sqds leave, you get Tejas mk2 replacements and the strength remains at 34sqds. Shortfall of 8sqds to reach 42 figure. Remove the 3 mirages, and shortfall by 2035 is of 11 sqds.

If they get 2 additional Rafale sqds, remaining 9 sqds can be made up of more mk2 and later, AMCA even fgfa.

Essentially the question is...Why the hell is the IAF looking for 4 gen platforms circa 2035? Yes there will be a shortfall if the aim is 42 sqds but why can't these be made up of AMCA or fgfa.

Is iaf hedging against delays in all these programs? If 110 birds are to be purchased, I hope they find some advanced stealthy bird to come in... The only real possibility is the pakfa. Or the jsf but you can forget any real tot for the latter, maybe a faco line... And the fgfa will probly replace the mki from 2040 onwards.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 13 Apr 2018 22:50

The right answer would be to double the Rafale order, and then spend on actively ramping up Tejas, while investing the savings from not spending on this darn new RFI to actively get a 5G platform specifically tailored for the IAF, or a F-35 buy.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 13 Apr 2018 22:52

TOT via 5G can at best be assistance for AMCA production etc. If anyone in GOI, or IAF is thinking 5G production will be given via true TOT, they are mistaken. We will get a half way solution from Russia for tinkering for another decade, or a closed box F-35 with strings but which has to be carefully integrated into other assets. Exploring the latter also makes sense.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby V_Raman » 13 Apr 2018 22:54

Interesting - 362-110-36 ==> 216 ==> cannot be LCA alone (14 years - 2019-2032 - ~16/year!!!) ==> LCA+MCA+FGFA?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Apr 2018 23:02

Karan and Ramanjis, that's exactly the point... Where is the space for another block of 4 gen birds that can't be taken by home grown brew?

I wonder if this is why the Russians were making noises about stealthy flankers recently. Does the shornet international come any closer? Get as close to 5g as possible?

Seems backwards, why can't they just look for stealth birds if the timeframe is going to be around 2030?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby V_Raman » 13 Apr 2018 23:33

I dont think India can afford to import 5G or UCAV - we need domestic effort for that. All effort should be geared towards that - give another 20 years for our research agencies. We need to all investments geared towards making that goal a reality.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Will » 14 Apr 2018 20:47

Boeing has really played a master stroke by tying up with both HAL and Mahindra. Having said that it wouldnt be the worst outcome if the Superhornet Blk 3 is choosen. More Rafales would be ideal but since cost is a major factor the Superhornet Blk 3 wouldnt be such a bad idea if costs can be kept down , a decent amount of tech transfer takes place. But that would really all be down to the weapons fit and modifications that the IAF wants. From amongst the contenders the IAF dosen't want the F-16 or the Mig-35. Its going to be almost impossible for a BJP govt to push for the Gripen due to SAAB's tie up with the Adani's.

Let's face it the F-35 is not going to be offered anytime soon and local production is not going to take place. Even if and when its offered it will come with too many strings attached to really make it worthwhile for the IAF to procure.

That leaves the Rafale, the Eurofighter and the Superhornet.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 15 Apr 2018 11:45

Wasting billions on 4th gen hags with an overdose of makeup would be the most detrimental decision ever in the history in the armed forces.

If cost-effectiveness is applied, as mentioned several times before, adding more aircraft of types in service is the answer.More M2Ks and MIG-29s from the second-hand mkt. or new ones, the cheapest option.Produce LCAs on a war footing with another line in the pvt. sector.Upgrade MKIs to SS std.

Looking to the future ideally.
Heavy:The heavy inventory will be the Flankers, upgraded to SS BMos std.SU-57s for the 5th-gen , whether bought out or in the JV.Perhaps a sqd. of MIG-41s too with super LR AAMs. Numbers of heavy aircraft anywhere from 300 to 360.

Medium: Upgraded M2Ks and 29s were supposed to last for another 15- 20 years.Therefore, they will need replacing only by 2030 along with the 120+ upgraded Jags.If extras of both types can be found to equip another 2 sqds., excellent. AMCA should start entering service from 2030 onwards incorporating 5++gen/6th gen. tech drawing upon FGFA experience. There is little point in building a smaller less capable 5th-gen bird than the FGFA since both birds have only one pilot too unlike MKIs.
The 2+ sqd. of Rafales along with approx.120+M2Ks and MIG-29s and 120 Jag UGs will give us a total of about 300.

Light:All 120 Bisons will be retired by 2025 if not earlier.All hundreds of earlier MIG-21s and 27s by 2020.LCAs will have to meet the shortfall.By 2020 we can expect at least 200+ to have been built.With an effort this can go upto 240+.

Overall this gives us approx.850-900 aircraft.The 42- 45 sqds. approved.We really require closer to 60.Unless that is the case another firang bird is unnecessasy. If the Rafale is selected yet again, and it should be, heavy bargaining must bring its price down. It cannot cost 2-3 times more than other options.If the LCA prod. stutters, then buy the Gripen as insurance for the light req. and if a western bird is wanted.One must also remember that for every Rafale bought, we lose 4 LCAs!

100-120 dedicated CS/GA aircraft are also required.
Armoured Jags or Hawks the best option, whichever is more cost-effective.The IA could also get some turboprop COIN birds like Tucanos, etc. so that they don't have to totally depend upon the IAF.The CS/GA sqds. should be on call at any time by the IA exclusively.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Austin » 15 Apr 2018 12:37

Want to sell fighter jets to India? Make them there

CHENNAI — During the past decade, India has been the world's largest importer of aircraft, ships and other military gear, most of it from Russia.

It is a dependence that the Indian government is eager to shed — and the United States wants to help.

In fits and starts, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has been trying to build up a homegrown defence industry than can supply more of India's needs and even export weapons to other nations. The government in New Delhi is encouraging foreign defence companies seeking contracts from India to partner with local firms and share technology with them.

The Trump administration has supported India's efforts to get United States technology, hoping to strengthen ties with a country it considers a key counterweight to China in the region, while diminishing Russia's influence. Major US defence contractors like Boeing and Lockheed Martin are also gung-ho, seeing the chance to win billions of dollars in business from a country that has historically chosen Russian and European suppliers.

The biggest prize is India's plan to buy up to 110 fighter aircraft, a mix of single- and dual-engine models, a deal worth an estimated US$15 billion (S$19.66 billion) that Boeing and Lockheed are both seeking to win with Indian partners. In addition to the Russians, whose MiG planes are the mainstay of the Indian air force, the US companies will face stiff competition from French and Swedish businesses seeking portions of the contract.

The Indian government is requiring that most of the planes it buys under the new contract be assembled in India. In other defence deals, the Modi government is taking a less strict approach, encouraging — but not mandating — foreign arms manufacturers to team up with local companies to make parts, or entire products, within the country.

In essence, India wants foreign companies to transfer key technologies to their local partners so they can eventually do it all themselves.

"Today we live in an interconnected world where the efficiency of supply chain is a key factor in any manufacturing enterprise," Mr Modi said Thursday in a speech at India's defence exposition, held every two years, this time in the southeastern coastal city of Chennai. "Therefore, the strategic imperative to make in India, to make for India and to supply to the world from India is stronger than ever before."

Throughout the show, potential bidders for the fighter aircraft contract were showing off their capabilities in hangar-size, air-conditioned tents.

Boeing, which intends to submit a bid to supply its F/A-18 Hornets, announced that it would team up with the government-owned aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and one of India's largest conglomerates, Mahindra Group, to build the planes locally. At a booth at the show, it was offering visitors a chance to fly a Hornet simulator.

Lockheed, a leading Boeing rival, has teamed up with Tata Sons, another Indian conglomerate, to pitch its F-16s. As part of the bid, the US company would offer to move its sole F-16 production line, currently in Greenville, South Carolina, to India to make the planes at a joint factory with Tata.

Any move is several years off, but about 250 South Carolina workers would lose their jobs if it happened. Those jobs are uncertain anyway because there are currently no firm orders for the F-16, although Bahrain is expected to sign a deal and other countries have expressed interest. India's large order would support jobs at US parts suppliers.

The Trump administration is threatening a trade war with China in part over the country's demand that US companies transfer chip designs and other advanced technology to Chinese firms to get access to the Chinese market.

With India, the transfers are more voluntary and intensively negotiated. The US government is directly involved because it must approve all major weapons sales.

"The US is going to be very forward-leaning in technology, the transfer of technology, and indigenous production that we can offer to India," Kenneth Juster, the US ambassador to India, told a panel at the conference in Chennai on Wednesday.

He added that the United States planned to offer India "certain technology and platforms that we have offered to no other country in the world." A fighter jet deal could lead to even more co-operation, he said.

Such sharing of sensitive technology is something the Russians have historically been reluctant to do, said Sameer Patil, director of the Center for International Security at Gateway House, a Mumbai think tank.

"Now the hope is that the private sector would get some technology transfer because the American partners have more confidence in the Indian ones," he said.

The Trump administration sees weapons sales and technology transfers as part of a strategy to rely more on New Delhi to counterbalance Beijing in Asia.

At this point, India's military is vastly outspent by China's. Beijing unveiled a defence budget this year that was three times larger than New Delhi's. However, India is investing in its navy, creating its own fleet of nuclear-powered submarines that US officials hope can help counter China's navy, which has made vast inroads into the Indian Ocean.

After India gained independence in 1947, it decided to rely primarily on government-owned military suppliers for its needs. But those companies have a mixed record on quality, execution and technological innovation.

In some cases, the Indian military has not wanted to buy locally made products, the country's defence minister, Nirmala Sitharaman, acknowledged Wednesday. "It is their final call that I have to respect," she said at a news conference.

So over the last few years, India has been encouraging the growth of private defence suppliers, from large industrial houses like Tata and Mahindra to hundreds of small and medium-sized companies.

The government is also requiring that foreign defence suppliers reinvest 30 per cent of the value of their Indian contracts back in the country, a target that Modi said has largely been achieved during his tenure.

To help win an Indian contract for AH-64 Apache helicopters, Boeing started a joint venture with Tata to build the Apache fuselages in the central Indian city of Hyderabad. The factory will eventually be the sole supplier of that part for Boeing's worldwide operations.

"It saved us money, gave Indians a capacity they didn't have before, and it opened the doors for a US$3.1 billion sale for us," Pratyush Kumar, president of Boeing India, said in an interview.

Tata, a 150-year-old conglomerate with interests in everything from truck manufacture to management consulting, has a lot to learn about the defence business, according to Banmali Agrawala, its president of infrastructure, defence and aerospace. Partnerships like the ones with Boeing and Lockheed, he said, were important steps.

"We want to make sure whatever we do is globally competitive and meets global standards," he said. "Let's first gain some expertise by plugging ourselves into the global supply chain." THE NEW YORK TIMES


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 16 Apr 2018 23:06

Back in the days of the F/A-18 E/F's elimination from the earlier MRCA competition, this was supposed to have been the primary reason for eliminating the Super Hornet. I suppose that means that this time around, Boeing will definitely offer the F-414 Enhance Performance Engine (EPE), likely with CFTs.

AW&ST

ST. LOUIS — Boeing understands that the main reason for the elimination of the Super Hornet from India’s Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft evaluation was a decision by Indian officials not to give the fighter credit for a more powerful engine offered by General Electric.


“That’s the customer’s prerogative,” Boeing Super Hornet Program Manager Mike Gibbons said in St. Louis on June 8 during the company’s pre-Paris air show media briefing tour.

Boeing and GE were offering an Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) version of the F414, with a 25% thrust boost using an improved core demonstrated under a U.S. government-funded program, along with improved low-pressure components using proven technology. GE says that the EPE involved the same level of risk as 17 other engine programs that it had delivered successfully.

Without the new engine, the Super Hornet — heavier than the Typhoon or Rafale — could not compete on performance, which India weighted highly.

Meanwhile, Boeing says that the conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) included in the International Roadmap configuration, plus the EPE, deliver a big performance increase. The 3,200-lb.-capacity conformals cause zero net drag, the company says, because they reduce trim drag. As a result, a configuration with CFTs and a centerline tank delivers as much range as a three-tank configuration, and some weapon configurations can be cleared to supersonic speeds, which are not attainable with those stores today.


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 16 Apr 2018 23:16

That is not going to be possible in case a demonstration is required. The IAF will not be able to evaluate the higher rated engine because one does not exist, nor is one funded to completion and flight testing. This will be based on a "promise to develop an enhanced engine" and as such would be a leap of faith decision on part of the IAF/MOD.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 16 Apr 2018 23:32

yes indeed, if the IAF asks for a demo, it will lead to the same situation as in MRCA 1.0.

Leap of faith, perhaps based on GE and Boeing's reputation and also the AMCA requirements for a higher thrust F-414 engine.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 18 Apr 2018 01:49

instead of this circus, why not just get more rafales and commit to AMCA

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 18 Apr 2018 02:14

In part thanks to Rahul Gandhi and the Congress Party's attempt to frame the NDA Govt. on the current Rafale deal. An attempt to try to expand on it would have immediately led to accusations of corruption, collusion and favoritism towards Reliance, etc. And with elections in 2019, this could have spun out of control for the BJP.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 18 Apr 2018 03:48

This time, the RFI clearly asks states that the IAF expects the OEM to fully support the upgrades for the aircraft, to be done indigenously.

21. Product Upgrades. The aircraft OEM would extend full support for technology insertion / upgradation / modification of the aircraft to meet user requirements over the life span of the entire fleet in the user inventory.

(a) OEM Process / History of Upgrades. OEM shall describe the process for future technology insertion.

(b) Technical Data Provided for Upgrades. Technical data, including relevant Documentation update in respect of any modifications / improvements /upgrades undertaken by the OEM in the licensed product during the entire life
cycle of the product / licence Agreement, shall be provided to the Indian Production Agency(ies), along with manufacturing data for the same.

(c) Indigenous Upgrade Capability. It should be possible to indigenously integrate new weapons and avionics of Indian, Western and Russian origins. The ToT must include complete design data / Know-how / Know-why, such as
Numeric Master Geometry (NMG), airframe strength characteristics, near flow field characteristics, control laws, software source codes, training and technical assistance. The OEM is required to provide adequate design information like
design process, design data flow, design work flow, design option considered and the rationale for choice from among the chosen options to facilitate “Know why” and provide skill development plan to the Indian Production Agency(ies)/
User trainees to enable indigenous upgrade capability subsequently.


This is to allow the kind of work that NAL did with the Mirage-2000 upgrade as was described in NAL Director's Report 2016-17

Image

I am happy to inform that CSIRNAL has contributed significantly to the Mirage aircraft up-gradation programme of IAF. The significant
contributions include: (a) store separation suite consists of CFD mesh free solver developed to carry out weapon integration studies involving
trajectory computations for about 96 configurations including single as well as multiple release of stores (Fig. 9), (b) Finite element
model of the aircraft having dynamic characteristics generated from 3-D CAD model which can be used for static stress and dynamic analysis
of the aircraft with different store configuration, (c) aero-mechanical load analysis to compute the load envelopes and reactions, and (d)
aeromechanical studies of new stores on the Mirage aircraft were carried out to provide data for stability and control (S&C) analysis in
support of flight clearance.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 18 Apr 2018 22:41

Kartik wrote:This is to allow the kind of work that NAL did with the Mirage-2000 upgrade as was described in NAL Director's Report 2016-17

Is there an update on the Mirage 2000 upgrade? Last time I heard, it was stuck due to bureaucratic hurdles.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 18 Apr 2018 22:44

I do not see the wisdom in going for the Gripen E. I do not see what that plane can offer. Unless they are hedging their bets that the Tejas Mk2 will not arrive on time.

Modi’s Sweden visit may get us Gripen, but Air Force needs more
https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion ... a-pakistan

Just a week before the RFI of 6 April, a group of former IAF chiefs and other strategic thinkers met at Delhi Forum For Strategic Studies to confront the IAF’s dwindling combat fighter strength, which would plummet from the present 27/31 squadrons to 24 combat squadrons by 2032. It was decided that former IAF chiefs would seek a meeting with PM Modi and apprise him of the growing crisis. The request was to immediately order an IAF capability review against a two-front collusive threat, and simultaneously order a government-to-government ‘Make in India’ contract for the single-engine Saab Gripen of Sweden, for establishing a new production line integral with transfer of technology but avoiding the tedious MMRCA tendering process, which it has already gone through. This route was explored tentatively in October 2016 along with Lockheed Martin’s F-16 but the project vanished mysteriously. This forum’s recommendations were given to the press and copies sent to the IAF.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 18 Apr 2018 22:47

Can someone confirm that Rs 95,000 crore is roughly $14.5 billion USD? Is that math right?

Requests for proposals: Indian Navy looks to buy 57 fighters for Rs 95,000 crore
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/1136675/

According to industry sources, Boeing’s recently announced tie-up with the Mahindra Group and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) is primarily in view of the 57-aircraft requirement for the navy.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 18 Apr 2018 22:59

Saab offers AEL wide area display for Gripen E buyers
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-447325/

Brazilian-made wide area and head-up displays for the Saab Gripen E/F will be offered to all customers of the single-engined fighter as a potential cockpit upgrade, says Mikael Franzén, head of Business Unit, Gripen Brazil.

Like Really? :roll:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 18 Apr 2018 23:03

Saab keen on IAF fighter contract
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 566024.ece

“The RFI has opened the door to different kinds of aircraft, which was an issue under discussion and Saab is very happy that this has been clarified, since there was delay in moving on exactly what the government wanted. So they know what to expect now, there is more clarity. And they will be responding to the RFI,” Mr. Molin said. He said if the government follows the strategic partnership model, where a private Indian firm would be the manufacturing agency in India, “it will take some time to shape out and see who the competitors will be, but Saab is definitely interested in continuing in the process.”

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 18 Apr 2018 23:06

India, Sweden agree upon ‘win-win’ joint action plan
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 579112.ece

Ruchi Ghanashyam, Secretary (West), External Affairs Ministry, and Sweden’s Minister Mikael Damberg after signing the Innovation and Partnership Agreement.

Image

After a hectic day of bilateral parleys here, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Swedish counterpart, Stefan Löfven, on Tuesday agreed upon a joint action plan (JAP) for both countries to take forward a wide range of initiatives in defence, trade and investment, counterterrorism, renewable energy, smart cities, women’s skill development, space and science and healthcare.

The bilateral summit here was additionally significant for the opportunity it afforded both sides to discuss Sweden’s interest in proposing the Saab Group’s Gripen-E single-engine jet fighter for the Indian Air Force, as a Request for Information had been issued earlier this month to Stockholm.


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