MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
srin
BRFite
Posts: 1552
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srin » 24 Feb 2018 19:35

Rakesh wrote:We need to learn from MMRCA - Episode I and MMRCA - Episode II. We have proven that we are incapable of doing screwdrivergiri on western aircraft. Spectacular Failures.


No sir, we have proven that we can't run a procurement process. We haven't tried screwdrivergiri, so that we can or cannot is unproven.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5402
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2018 20:42

srin wrote:
Rakesh wrote:We need to learn from MMRCA - Episode I and MMRCA - Episode II. We have proven that we are incapable of doing screwdrivergiri on western aircraft. Spectacular Failures.

No sir, we have proven that we can't run a procurement process. We haven't tried screwdrivergiri, so that we can or cannot is unproven.

You are correct Sir. And come to think of it, we have done screwdrivergiri on western aircraft (Jaguar and Hawk).

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19360
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 24 Feb 2018 20:54

Willi, MKIs and 29UGs " brochure planes"? Come again! Study the facts.The 40+ upgraded BMos capable MKIs ard going to bd the main strike force of the IAF, not the 36 Rafales and the 67 29UGs all upgraded unlike the M2Ks at 4 times ter cost of which only 7 have been upgraded and a spat is reportedly on between the IAF and HAL over extra labour costs over and above
the $2.5 B for just 48 aircraft! The UAE are to pay just around $350M for their upgrades of their 62 M2K-9 fighters! That's 1/10th the cost of our upgrades admittedly of an earlier variant, but compare the component costs too.

Vips
BRFite
Posts: 854
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 24 Feb 2018 21:49

Will wrote:
Philip wrote:The obvious solution cheapest too, is more 29/35s or MKIs.Even an SU-35, single pilot could cut down operating/ manpower costs, but there are too many vested,"west-ed" interests and the IAF want fancy western " sports cars" to play with.


Philip ji. Please................ no more brochure planes from mother Russia. What good are they when even getting them into the air is a task in itself.


Mig35 - Old Wine in Older Bottle.

Mig29 - Less said about it the better - Smoking engines, Low availability rates, defective landing gear, (even the new MIG 29K's are lemons).

Only a Vodka sozzled, caught in compromising position with Svetlana bureaucrat or Air Force official would think about considering these flying junks for IAF.

Now if you talk of quick fix 2 squadrons worth SU-35, with 6-12 TU-22/160 that is a different matter....

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5402
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2018 22:54

India’s Fighter Jet Procurement Saga Zooms Into Familiar Jumble
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/02 ... umble.html

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5402
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2018 23:10

^^^ Re-issuing the tender only makes the prospects of the F-16, F-18, MiG-35 and Typhoon weaker. Only the Rafale and the F-35 now stand a chance.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5402
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2018 23:12

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 9866253313 —> New 100+ fighter jets will be procured by fast track process in a G2G deal. What do you think which jet is coming?

nash
BRFite
Posts: 746
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nash » 25 Feb 2018 00:15

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/status/967272079866253313 —> New 100+ fighter jets will be procured by fast track process in a G2G deal. What do you think which jet is coming?


F-35 if it is on offer and if it is not then F-18 or Rafale.

V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 394
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby V_Raman » 25 Feb 2018 04:15

F-18 and Ge 414

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5402
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2018 05:36

nash wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/status/967272079866253313 —> New 100+ fighter jets will be procured by fast track process in a G2G deal. What do you think which jet is coming?

F-35 if it is on offer and if it is not then F-18 or Rafale.

Saar, I posted that link because there is a poll in there :)

I think you got me mistaken...I was not asking for input, not there is anything wrong with that.

V_Raman wrote:F-18 and Ge 414

Ditto to above.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3872
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 25 Feb 2018 06:16

People talking about handing TASL a line to produce Tejas must remember that TASL has not shown any interest in doing that so far and the GoI cannot force a private company to do what it seems to not be interested in doing. Besides, for another Tejas line to be set up, there need to be at least another 100 Tejas Mk1A orders as well. Nothing less will justify the costs of setting up the assembly line.

I agree with those saying that this SEF program going down the drains and leading to a MRCA Redux is a good thing for the Tejas. the urgency of the IAF only increases and being the bird in hand, they'll take as many as they can get. Now it really is up to HAL, its suppliers and ADA to deliver on their promises. HAL on the Mk1A and ADA on a Tejas Mk2 that the IAF will be happy to induct.

From an IAF perspective, I feel that this situation can be handled by expediting 3 things-

1) order 2 more squadrons of Su-30MKIs before the line closes. Eventually, with attrition at the same rate as till now, over 3 more decades that the Su-30MKI will serve, they'll be around 15 squadrons of MKIs. So it makes sense to order 2 more squadrons before that assembly line re-tools for whatever 5th gen fighter the IAF will get.

2) Focus on the upgrade programs- if your overall fleet is smaller than you want, at least work towards making what remains, capable of meeting the threats you face.
Push HAL for the completion of the Mirage-2000I upgrade by resolving petty small disputes that may be delaying it. For the Jaguar upgrade, just go ahead and re-engine the fleet if that really improves the range, endurance and mission effectiveness of the Jags.
And finalise the Super-Sukhoi upgrade and focus on getting that contract signed.

3) Support the Tejas Mk2 program and do everything possible to expedite it. If they work towards getting it right, their single engine light-medium fighter needs will be taken care of for decades to come. Then, the Rafale can come in as the MRCA and allow for more breathing room to induct the AMCA.

One thing I've been wondering- why doesn't the IAF ask Rosboronexport to submit the Su-35S in place of the MiG-35 for the contest? If F/A-18 E/F can participate, then so can the Su-35S, since the SHornet is a heavy weight. Would at least make for a more competent Russian participant.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35679
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 25 Feb 2018 06:55

Operational cost and logistics-wise, just get 41 more Rafale and be done with it. Kindergarten logic onlee.

Focus on Su30 upgrades to composite skins, AESA etc. Invest for Kaveri and AMCA.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3126
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kakkaji » 25 Feb 2018 08:02

Kartik wrote:One thing I've been wondering- why doesn't the IAF ask Rosboronexport to submit the Su-35S in place of the MiG-35 for the contest? If F/A-18 E/F can participate, then so can the Su-35S, since the SHornet is a heavy weight. Would at least make for a more competent Russian participant.


Maybe the Russians don't want to offer the SU-35 to India because it is an already developed plane in production, with firm customers in Russian and Chinese Air Forces.

Mig-35 needs funds for development, and it needs customers that can support it. That's why the Russians are offering it to India. Just like the Mig-29K that was developed with Indian funds.

VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 415
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby VKumar » 25 Feb 2018 08:15

I expect more Rafale after the first squadron has arrived. How many more ? At least 2 more but can go up to 5 more if finances permit. Expect 57 for Navy as well.

Yes, another 3 squadrons of SU30MKI are very necessary. Their uptime will improve with the upgrade.

One squadron of Tejas p.a. in the next 10 years, with progressive versions, whatever they may be termed.

But even more important are the force enhancers, AWACS, TANKERS, SEAD and the ability to repair/replace at the airbase.

Hardened storage, mostly underground. Disbursed airfields, etc

For the Navy ability to sail at least 3 carriers at a time and put up 60 aircraft in the sky.

Need to review if some TU versions can be added along with more of P8.

AND TANKERS AND AWACS AND SEAD!

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6826
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Prasad » 25 Feb 2018 08:46

Hal can get to 12/year in another year or two. Doubling that will need an order for 100 more. In 3-4 years current line will stabilise. If they talk n fund a new line, suppliers, major and minor, will get enough time to scale at the quality needed by 5 years' time. 24/year from 2025-2032 will give us 2+ squadrons a year and 6 squadrons between 2025& 2030. If we switch to Mk2 even as late as 2028, we will get a near mrca fighter from 2028. That'll be 5 squadrons by 2032 from 2028. Why the heck di we need 100 anything from faarin?

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5402
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2018 08:56

Kartik wrote:People talking about handing TASL a line to produce Tejas must remember that TASL has not shown any interest in doing that so far and the GoI cannot force a private company to do what it seems to not be interested in doing. Besides, for another Tejas line to be set up, there need to be at least another 100 Tejas Mk1A orders as well. Nothing less will justify the costs of setting up the assembly line.

Saar, I only said it...so let me be the one to bear the brunt of the idea being a bad one :) Since Tejas is the only platform that can be built in the numbers required - beyond the 83 Mk1As ordered - I was thinking TASL could adopt a line if HAL cannot deliver. And yes obviously they would have to be interested. Otherwise it will not work. But now with F-Solah, Block 70 not coming....perhaps they would be interested.

Kartik wrote:1) order 2 more squadrons of Su-30MKIs before the line closes. Eventually, with attrition at the same rate as till now, over 3 more decades that the Su-30MKI will serve, they'll be around 15 squadrons of MKIs. So it makes sense to order 2 more squadrons before that assembly line re-tools for whatever 5th gen fighter the IAF will get.

Two more squadrons are already ordered as per the announcement by ACM Dhanoa Sir on 08 Oct 2017. So from 272 (15 squadrons) it will jump to 314 (17 squadrons). These numbers do not include the 7 examples that have crashed to date. I think all 7 are hull losses.

Kartik wrote:One thing I've been wondering- why doesn't the IAF ask Rosboronexport to submit the Su-35S in place of the MiG-35 for the contest? If F/A-18 E/F can participate, then so can the Su-35S, since the SHornet is a heavy weight. Would at least make for a more competent Russian participant.

There is already talk on Su-35S coming to India...and this is just prior to MRCA Contest - Episode III. So expect Su-35S to join in the fray as well, along with the MiG-35. They will represent the Russian birds in Episode III. Seventeen years since Episode I....what a comedy show this is. We are a laughing stock.

Could Russia Design a Fifth-Generation Variant of the Su-35 for India?
https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/could-r ... for-india/

India and Russia are talking about upgrading Su-35 with stealth
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/02/i ... ealth.html

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4087
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 25 Feb 2018 08:58

Prasad wrote:Hal can get to 12/year in another year or two. Doubling that will need an order for 100 more. In 3-4 years current line will stabilise. If they talk n fund a new line, suppliers, major and minor, will get enough time to scale at the quality needed by 5 years' time. 24/year from 2025-2032 will give us 2+ squadrons a year and 6 squadrons between 2025& 2030. If we switch to Mk2 even as late as 2028, we will get a near mrca fighter from 2028. That'll be 5 squadrons by 2032 from 2028. Why the heck di we need 100 anything from faarin?

Basically, the decision makers of India (end users-MoD-MoF-GoI-DRDO-HAL-et al) don't get it! All the talk about MII but where are the volume orders to nurture a fledgling aerospace MIC? The whole MII policy seems more targeted towards imported platforms and less towards true "Designed & Made-in-India". Why on earth would India--after 30-years of toiling to develop a 4th-Gen fighter in the Tejas and in production (with 40 unit order only)--issue SEF import tender undermining its own hard-earned know-hows/whys? Stupid is what the stupid does so the saying goes.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5402
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2018 09:01

We just got saved from stupidty via the F-Solah, Block 70 or Gripen E. Lets hope Episode III crashes & burns as well and we churn out Tejas in numbers.

Do you remember srai ---> 200 F-16s and 100 F-18s were definitely coming :lol:

Who cares about how that number would fit in an IAF Order of Battle. That is how confident the claim was.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19360
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 25 Feb 2018 10:19

Clairvoyancy is one of my attributes.A stealth SU-35 could foot the IAF's current bill.For long I've asked why a single-seat Flanker was not favoured by the IAF, sticking to its old mantra when all 5th-gen fighters are SEFs.Easy route to acquire , an incremental progression until we obtain the SU-57 whatever.

MIG-35 advocated mainly for making up numbers at low cost.If LCA prod. can be ramped up with another line, so that numbers keep rolling out at the req. rate, then we can concentrate on the top deck acquisitions in the realm of stealth.

nash
BRFite
Posts: 746
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nash » 25 Feb 2018 12:53

Rakesh wrote:
nash wrote:F-35 if it is on offer and if it is not then F-18 or Rafale.

Saar, I posted that link because there is a poll in there :)

I think you got me mistaken...I was not asking for input, not there is anything wrong with that.

V_Raman wrote:F-18 and Ge 414

Ditto to above.


Admiral Saar, that vote link didn't come up for me may be slow speed. :mrgreen:

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3872
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 26 Feb 2018 02:47

Kakkaji wrote:
Kartik wrote:One thing I've been wondering- why doesn't the IAF ask Rosboronexport to submit the Su-35S in place of the MiG-35 for the contest? If F/A-18 E/F can participate, then so can the Su-35S, since the SHornet is a heavy weight. Would at least make for a more competent Russian participant.


Maybe the Russians don't want to offer the SU-35 to India because it is an already developed plane in production, with firm customers in Russian and Chinese Air Forces.

Mig-35 needs funds for development, and it needs customers that can support it. That's why the Russians are offering it to India. Just like the Mig-29K that was developed with Indian funds.


My guess is that it was because of some weight limit that was put into the original RFIs. The idea being that the IAF didn't want to get another Su-30MKI class heavy, although the very fact that the SHornet made the evaluation was strange, since at ~30,000 kgs MTOW, it is just 4,500 kgs short of the Su-35S's MTOW.

I would assume that the Su-35S's maintenance costs will be as high as that of the Su-30MKI and it really doesn't stand much of a chance because of its MKI cousin being in such widespread service in the IAF, but it is a very highly regarded fighter and certainly would offer stiffer competition than the MiG-35. Anyway, one of the goals is to not have the bulk of the IAF's fighters of Russian origin, so the Su-35S or MiG-35 really don't stand a very good chance.

the MiG-35 doesn't really need IAF funds any more. That was true back in 2005-2006 when it was basically a SMT with a -35 sticker on and later modified with a prototype AESA. But it has been ordered by the Russian Air Force now albeit without an AESA even now.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3872
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 26 Feb 2018 03:01

Rakesh wrote:
Kartik wrote:People talking about handing TASL a line to produce Tejas must remember that TASL has not shown any interest in doing that so far and the GoI cannot force a private company to do what it seems to not be interested in doing. Besides, for another Tejas line to be set up, there need to be at least another 100 Tejas Mk1A orders as well. Nothing less will justify the costs of setting up the assembly line.

Saar, I only said it...so let me be the one to bear the brunt of the idea being a bad one :) Since Tejas is the only platform that can be built in the numbers required - beyond the 83 Mk1As ordered - I was thinking TASL could adopt a line if HAL cannot deliver. And yes obviously they would have to be interested. Otherwise it will not work. But now with F-Solah, Block 70 not coming....perhaps they would be interested.


Somehow, it does appear that our private aerospace sector is more amenable to the idea of getting ToT from a foreign OEM with the possibility of exports (as unlikely as that might be) than they are with tying up with DRDO or HAL and setting up a line for an indigenous product. I don't expect very warm responses for the offer to set up a private sector line for the civil ALH as well. Cultural differences in work culture between private sector companies and PSUs may be to blame.

Anyhow, I believe that HAL outsourcing fuselage modules to private sector firms is the way to go and they will eventually scale up to deliver the required numbers. Setting up ANOTHER assembly line costing hundreds of crores at TASL or whoever, is just not feasible, nor going to impact Tejas deliveries for another 5-6 years anyway. All it'll serve to do is act as a distraction for HAL and its suppliers.

So the best bet is to streamline processes for HAL to make it easier for them to work with their partners. Even Russia cannot deliver more than 3-4 Su-57s in the first year of setting up its assembly line. Just wait till the assembly lines stabilize at both HAL and its private partners.

Rakesh wrote: Two more squadrons are already ordered as per the announcement by ACM Dhanoa Sir on 08 Oct 2017. So from 272 (15 squadrons) it will jump to 314 (17 squadrons). These numbers do not include the 7 examples that have crashed to date. I think all 7 are hull losses.


I believe that the number ordered is still 272. 2 more squadrons were to be equipped with MKIs, but no new orders were placed. Else, HAL would have reported that, since 40-42 Su-30MKIs would have cost thousands of crores and the boost to the order book and the assembly line would have made for great press for HAL.

But I'd expect some movement on that front soon.

Rakesh wrote:There is already talk on Su-35S coming to India...and this is just prior to MRCA Contest - Episode III. So expect Su-35S to join in the fray as well, along with the MiG-35. They will represent the Russian birds in Episode III. Seventeen years since Episode I....what a comedy show this is. We are a laughing stock.

Could Russia Design a Fifth-Generation Variant of the Su-35 for India?
https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/could-r ... for-india/

India and Russia are talking about upgrading Su-35 with stealth
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/02/i ... ealth.html


Ignore those articles Rakesh. They're rubbish.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35679
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 26 Feb 2018 05:45

Su 35 is pretty much a revved up 30.

India centric platform must focus on reduced RCS (massively against any Russkie platforms) - composite and RAM or other reduction techniques.

Radar must be LPI and AESA pref AlGaN, open standards.

We can look at the L/S-band smacker on the wings like in PAKFA. Low observability, better OLS/50 IRST,.. We gotta have an advantage over chippandas.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3155
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Feb 2018 08:49

Rakesh wrote:[
There is already talk on Su-35S coming to India...and this is just prior to MRCA Contest - Episode III. So expect Su-35S to join in the fray as well, along with the MiG-35. They will represent the Russian birds in Episode III. Seventeen years since Episode I....what a comedy show this is. We are a laughing stock.

Could Russia Design a Fifth-Generation Variant of the Su-35 for India?
https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/could-r ... for-india/
India and Russia are talking about upgrading Su-35 with stealth
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/02/i ... ealth.html


I'm just wondering... What if this does happen and India uses it as a way to get out of the pakfa deal, which it seems the IAF wants no part of and the Russians don't really want to share any substantial IP for?

At least the AF is totally familiar with the rambha and with a largish order, and greater tech sharing, they could mitigate the spares issue, keeps the costs low, and the su35 is still rather cheap upfront. this might not be a bad idea. synergies....

I'm willing to bet that the vanilla su35 is as good as any 4th gen fighter out there.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3872
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 26 Feb 2018 09:56

It won't happen. Simple as that. the Su-35S is a bridge for technologies and capability before the Su-57 comes into service but no amount of RAM can make it a stealthy fighter. People are overlooking the fact that it's not externally shaped for stealth at all.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3155
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Feb 2018 10:00

Well not true blue stealth, but a compromise of sorts like the silent eagle that is mentioned in the article or the shornet international roadmap. Some shaping, an internal bay/pod between the nacelles, blocker for the inlets etc..... I mean they have been waiting for a long time to upgrade the mki. What if they combine this with an additional order of semi stealthy 40 su-35mki.

In any case is expect some su35 features on the mki... Such as more fuel, efts and dual racks between nacelles. Perhaps even to he 117 engines...

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4087
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 26 Feb 2018 10:14

^^^
For non-5th-Gen VLO design fighters, a typical practice is to try to reduce RCS of the frontal-area i.e. head-on.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35679
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 26 Feb 2018 11:12

here you go again..

Lockheed Martin has proposed to manufacture custom-built F-35 fighter jets in India, which its officials say would give Indian industry a unique opportunity to become part of the world’s largest fighter aircraft ecosystem.
http://www.livemint.com/Companies/xOIXx ... remen.html

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19360
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 26 Feb 2018 12:41

The F-35 is a maze into which few will be able to get out of being so complicated a weapon system.Developing a desi-oriented aircraft out of it would be a herculean task and the costs involved would be far in excess of the FGFA JV offered. If ever the F-35 is seriously considered then an outright buy would be the best way ,with the IAF ticking the boxes on eqpt. options available from the OEM. A G-to-G deal preferred,but the cost factor making it very unlikely. The best way forward on the F-35 is to wait and watch its induction into the air forces of US allies and to see how the bird fares.Let the initial glitches once in sqd. service be experienced and rectified before we step in and assess the bird.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3383
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby JayS » 26 Feb 2018 14:46

I am not following things fully currently, but what is this new madness of 100 jets in G2G deal that's being talked about...? Isn't MMRCA -2 enough..? Or the Rafale fiasco..?? I have seen 3-4 references now to this G2G thinggy.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1358
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_P » 26 Feb 2018 14:53

Philip wrote:The F-35 is a maze into which few will be able to get out of being so complicated a weapon system.Developing a desi-oriented aircraft out of it would be a herculean task and the costs involved would be far in excess of the FGFA JV offered.

What exactly is the JV "offered"?

The best way forward on the F-35 is to wait and watch its induction into the air forces of US allies and to see how the bird fares.Let the initial glitches once in sqd. service be experienced and rectified before we step in and assess the bird.

Does the same apply to the Su 57/FGFA? As of this moment how many F35s are flying and how many Su 57s

Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 126
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kersi » 26 Feb 2018 15:56

Manish_P wrote:
Philip wrote:The F-35 is a maze into which few will be able to get out of being so complicated a weapon system.Developing a desi-oriented aircraft out of it would be a herculean task and the costs involved would be far in excess of the FGFA JV offered.

What exactly is the JV "offered"?

Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 126
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kersi » 26 Feb 2018 15:58

Kersi wrote:
Manish_P wrote:
What exactly is the JV "offered"?


JV with Russia means we pay, and we pay and we pay and ...... Well they will deliver the equipment sometime.

TOT mean we pay and the Russia tells us to $#@$%^^#.. Gun barrels for T 90

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6511
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 26 Feb 2018 16:08

Manish_P wrote: As of this moment how many F35s are flying...


The 300th F-35 would be delivered off of the production line in a couple of months time, and by the end of the year more than 600 pilots (from around the world) would have been trained to fly it by its training program. Currently, squadrons/units with the USAF, USMC, Israel, and Italy have declared Initial Operational Capability while Japan and Norway are fielding aircraft into their first operational units. Japan deployed its first aircraft to Misawa recently and all the jets coming from the US or rolling from its line will go to boost that unit for now. The USN will declare IOC by the end of this year, and by the end of this year or early next year the USMC will declare FOC. USAF would also have met most if not all of the "technical parameters" for FOC by the year end but would have to wait to meet personnel targets (number of trained maintainers and pilots etc) to declare their As fully operational.

South Korea also plans to transition its first few aircraft back to its home base by the end of the year, setting itself up to declare its IOC as well. By the end of the year Australia, too would begin forming up its first combat squadron as it transitions its initial aircraft and trained pilots to RAAF Base Williamtown. All in the F-35 (A or B variant) is currently flying from 15 US or International bases which is set to grow considerably in the coming couple of years as other development partners and FMS customers take their aircraft back home after completing initial training in Arizona.

On a program level, the System Development and Demonstration (SDD) phase would wind up by May-June of this year, and the program will shift to a transition phase where it will be addressing post SDD needs, any software fixes it needs that are left over from the SDD and any capability not included in SDD that the customers now want etc..This phase will last around 6 months to a year after which the program will go straight into a Follow on Development phase and begin developing hardware and software for its block-4 configuration which will begin showing up in the early 2020s.

As I had said earlier, if the F-35 is even considered by the IAF/MOD, by the time this competition is decided and the first aircraft likely fielded (mid 2020s), more F-35s will likely be flying around the world than Typhoons, Rafale's, MiG-35's, and Gripen-Es combined.

Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 126
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kersi » 26 Feb 2018 17:26

brar_w wrote:The 300th F-35 would be delivered off of the production line in a couple of months time...

Thanks. I was not aware that such a large nos. of F 35 are already flying. But I still wonder whether it can fit our budget

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6511
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 26 Feb 2018 17:56

Kersi wrote:Thanks. I was not aware that such a large nos. of F 35 are already flying. But I still wonder whether it can fit our budget


2018 will see roughly 7-8 aircraft delivered per month while 2019, the target is around 11 aircraft a month (from 3 FACO lines). Most of these aircraft (those to be delivered in 2018 @ 91 aircraft a year rate, and those to be delivered in 2019 @ around 140 aircraft/yr) are on contract or have long lead payments released while final contracts are in negotiation.

http://aviationweek.com/singapore-airsh ... ia-pacific

But I still wonder whether it can fit our budget


There may be many reasons why the MOD does not consider the F-35 but if the Typhoon, Super Hornet and Rafale are competing, the F-35, particularly in its CTOL configuration, would have no issues in the cost department compared to those 3. Depending upon the configuration, and timeframe it may even be cheaper.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1358
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_P » 26 Feb 2018 18:50

Ah, I just wanted a broad figure. So say around 100 F35s for sure delivered and going through their paces with multiple Nations, multiple locations.

As compared to what 5-10 Su 57s with Russia

(FGFA and stealthy Su35s are still only on paper, if at all)

So which Aircraft seems to have a better chance of it's niggles and quirks all identified and smoothed out faster?

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6511
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 26 Feb 2018 19:08

Manish_P wrote:Ah, I just wanted a broad figure. So say around 100 F35s for sure delivered and going through their paces with multiple Nations, multiple locations.

As compared to what 5-10 Su 57s with Russia

(FGFA and stealthy Su35s are still only on paper, if at all)

So which Aircraft seems to have a better chance of it's niggles and quirks all identified and smoothed out faster?


There is a distinction that you have to draw in that the first serial produced Su-57 has not yet been ordered but they expect to order a batch of a dozen or so very soon with 2 out of those arriving in 2019 . The 10 or so examples currently flying are pre-production prototypes that are being used for testing. These are two very different programs from an industrial capacity perspective. Just to put things in context, by the time the first dozen Su-57''s are operationalized by the RuAF, the global F-35 fleet will likely be putting upwards of 75,000 hours of flying a year. If the idea is to let them fly and iterate their way to maturity (a perfectly reasonably argument) then it is clear which system will have a pretty large head start on that end. But again, these are fundamentally different aircraft and capabilities..


Russia to order 12 fifth generation Su-57 stealth fighters to “test combat use”

Russia is to order 12 of the fifth generation Sukhoi Su-57 stealth fighter aircraft this year, and expects 14 Su-30SM fighters to be delivered in 2018, the deputy defense minister said.

“We are buying Su-57 jets for test combat use. First stage state trials are over,” Deputy defense minister Yuri Borisov said on Thursday, February 8, Tass reported. “This year, we will sign a contract for the first batch of 12 Su-57 fighter jets for the Armed Forces.”

According to Tass, Borisov said the first two aircraft may enter service in 2019, and that ten out of the 12 planes built so far are undergoing tests.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1358
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_P » 26 Feb 2018 20:00

brar_w wrote:Just to put things in context, by the time the first dozen Su-57''s are operationalized by the RuAF, the global F-35 fleet will likely be putting upwards of 75,000 hours a year of flying a year. If the idea is to let them fly and iterate their way to maturity (a perfectly reasonably argument) then it is clear which system will have a pretty large head start on that end.


Exactly that. sir. That is the point i wanted to convey in response to Philip saars specific point in his post

But again, these are fundamentally different aircraft and capabilities..


I am very aware of that...and also quite aware that apparently this new round of evaluations/requirement has been kept pretty broad/ambiguous by the GOI/MOD on certain important parameters... single engine/twin engine, 4th Gen/4.5 Gen/5th Gen/5.25 Gen... intentionally perhaps

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5402
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 26 Feb 2018 20:21

JayS wrote:I am not following things fully currently, but what is this new madness of 100 jets in G2G deal that's being talked about...? Isn't MMRCA -2 enough..? Or the Rafale fiasco..?? I have seen 3-4 references now to this G2G thinggy.

Same idli-sambar, now repackaged as idli-chutney-sambar.

The IAF still needs new fighters. This time around, I hope the Amreekis drop the teens for the IAF. Gone through two rejections already. I hope they get the message!

Don’t shoot me - but a split order might occur of follow-on Rafales + another bird (my guess would be F-35). Once the first batch of Rafales come in, the IAF can make a very good case for additional aircraft of the same type. The latter will take time, but now seems possible. And I don’t think 100 will come in one shot.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Balaji, Kakarat, nithish and 44 guests