MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Austin » 24 Jun 2018 10:46

Rakesh wrote:Rafale: Strongest contendor, politically speaking. The only negative being the cost, but that can be overcome by reducing the number.


Some where I dont see Rafale being a strong contender for MRCA . If MOD wanted Rafale they would not have tendered it but rather went for G2G Deal and the kind of TOT MOD is asking for this deal would make the old Rafale deal price look good

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srin » 24 Jun 2018 20:03

Rakesh wrote:If the F-16 and F-18 are out of the mix, the remaining four contendors are;

- MiG-35: Not happening
- Eurofighter Typhoon: Pointless
- Gripen E: strong contendor, with the F414 engine being its downfall. Low operational cost being among its trump cards.
- Rafale: Strongest contendor, politically speaking. The only negative being the cost, but that can be overcome by reducing the number.


On the contrary, given the political environment and frequent mentions of Rafale "scandal" by Congress, Rafale is currently the least politically acceptable option. Till there is a CAG clean chit. Couple it with cost and it is pretty difficult to see how it is going to go ahead given 2019 elections.

Gripen too is out of it, politically. Too close to Tejas and HAL and DRDO will spike it and rightfully so (IMO). Politically speaking, it is a minefield, because Saab has a partnership with Adani, and this close to election, the Govt wouldn't be that foolish to select it.

This was F18's to lose and boy have they done it in style. They announced a partnership with HAL, there was the Navy carrier-borne aircraft tender (so there was commonality) and then the US had to bring in CAATSA.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jun 2018 20:34

Pratyush wrote:You are still thinking about the f series. You have totally ignored the other competitors.

I have listed all six competitors. I have not ignored anyone.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jun 2018 20:34

Austin wrote:Some where I dont see Rafale being a strong contender for MRCA. If MOD wanted Rafale they would not have tendered it but rather went for G2G Deal and the kind of TOT MOD is asking for this deal would make the old Rafale deal price look good

Once the CAG report is out and the Rafale deal is given a clean chit, that is what will happen.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jun 2018 20:34

srin wrote:On the contrary, given the political environment and frequent mentions of Rafale "scandal" by Congress, Rafale is currently the least politically acceptable option. Till there is a CAG clean chit. Couple it with cost and it is pretty difficult to see how it is going to go ahead given 2019 elections.

Gripen too is out of it, politically. Too close to Tejas and HAL and DRDO will spike it and rightfully so (IMO). Politically speaking, it is a minefield, because Saab has a partnership with Adani, and this close to election, the Govt wouldn't be that foolish to select it.

This was F18's to lose and boy have they done it in style. They announced a partnership with HAL, there was the Navy carrier-borne aircraft tender (so there was commonality) and then the US had to bring in CAATSA.

Like I mentioned to Austin above, I am waiting for the CAG report to come out. Nothing is happening before 2019 anyway. CAATSA has likely sunk in any possibility of a deal for the F-18 or F-16. Will have to wait and see how the 2+2 meeting goes in July. If COMCASA is signed later this year or next year, then the F-series get a boost. The irony is there is no money for 110 fighters and all the bells & whistles that the RFI stipulates. After years of endless and pointless negotiations, a truncated number will be acquired.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 26 Jun 2018 02:23

F16s are 100% pure mullah aircraft. I'm talking Block 70++.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/loc ... ghter-jets

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby souravB » 26 Jun 2018 03:09

Just a random thought that has been going on my since I heard about signing of COMCASA. Maybe, just maybe F-35 be a late entry to the MMRCA.
reason:
- there is not much logic behind GoI signing COMCASA unless something game changer comes. armed predator drones just doesn't cut it.
- IAF always wanted the capability, and they wouldn't outright scrap the FGFA plan (they could just stall or keep negotiating) unless there is something else in the pipe.

problems:
S400 - nothing America/Congress can't bypass or overlook. The problem with Turkey is just a manifestation and not the cause.
statement from ACM Dhanoa - wouldn't read much into it. happens when negotiations are in preliminary stages.

I don't have any valid proof on anything, it is just a hunch. though if anybody can show me the folly in my thought process I'd be happy. But I'd be more than happy if I find somebody who shares my thoughts.. :D

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby RoyG » 26 Jun 2018 05:31

souravB wrote:Just a random thought that has been going on my since I heard about signing of COMCASA. Maybe, just maybe F-35 be a late entry to the MMRCA.
reason:
- there is not much logic behind GoI signing COMCASA unless something game changer comes. armed predator drones just doesn't cut it.
- IAF always wanted the capability, and they wouldn't outright scrap the FGFA plan (they could just stall or keep negotiating) unless there is something else in the pipe.

problems:
S400 - nothing America/Congress can't bypass or overlook. The problem with Turkey is just a manifestation and not the cause.
statement from ACM Dhanoa - wouldn't read much into it. happens when negotiations are in preliminary stages.

I don't have any valid proof on anything, it is just a hunch. though if anybody can show me the folly in my thought process I'd be happy. But I'd be more than happy if I find somebody who shares my thoughts.. :D


If you want to coordinate your military activities with Japan, SK, Taiwan, Australia, etc. you will have to become part of the US global intelligence sharing and communication architecture. It's not known how many systems will be linked up but I'm thinking it will only be certain aircraft like future armed drones, Poseidon MSA, and a number of ships in the fleet. I don't see it as a capitulation when we are using it to pressure China on things like NSG, policies toward Pak, etc. and to keep them at bay on the border. I see it as a natural progression of our balancing strategy. Keep good relations with both blocs to access high technology and resources and use both of them to keep each other out of Indian subcontinent.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jun 2018 06:03

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1011834481014202368 ---> As India’s July 6th deadline approaches for the big 200 Make In India fighters project, all six contenders from the doomed MMRCA contest confirm they’re back in the game, reports Stratpost :lol:

Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby souravB » 03 Jul 2018 15:05

indian air force warns global vendors on transfer of technology commitments
Global aerospace manufactures who are soon likely to send their response to Indian Air Force’s Request for Information (RFI) issued earlier in April have been warned to provide clear commitments from the vendors and their sub-vendors on the supply of sensitive guarantees on the transfer of technology including training facilities and performance guarantees or face chances of their response been rejected .

IAF seems to have learned from its previous experience and doesn’t want to waste years with vendors negotiating on the transfer of technology leading to further delays in the program. Most of the aircraft on the offer to India largely have remained the same but IAF will carry out technical rounds where each aircraft will be evaluated to find technical deficiencies which were found in previous rounds to see if those have been addressed.

IMO IAF seems to be looking into it in a convoluted way. Instead of asking them to provide us with TOT, we should ask them to set up shop here with all the cutting edge manufacturing processes that they employ and produce our indigenous a/c with theirs. We are already pretty advanced in developing technologies but without an immaculate manufacturing process the dream of AMCA is not going to be realized.
The TOT should be in manufacturing processes, machinery and methodologies not something which becomes obsolete in two years due to rapid growth of technology.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 04 Jul 2018 03:01

IAF warnings.....just add a few more zeros to the cos of TOT.We're again shooting ourselves in the foot wanting soon to be outdated 4th-gen TOT when we've spurned a 5th- gen JV! This deal should've been an outright buy with local assembly and spares prod. like the MIG-21s, guarantee on local lifetime support and a concentration on further acceleration and development of thd LCA with as much desi tech as possible.

This would give us our own bird with no need of any tech- as little as possible for 4th-gen birds which from 2025 to 2030 will begin to show their inferiority to 5th-gen birds proliferating the skies.The global majors must be laughing at us secretly as they plan to dump their legacy birds and tech upon us for as much moolah as possible.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jul 2018 06:59

Sourav: No one is going to provide ToT that this convoluted RFI asks for. Even this whole we-make-AL31FP-engine-from-raw-material-stage is bullsh1t. If we made that engine from scratch, as HAL claims, we should have no problem porting that "knowledge" over to the Kaveri program, no? No OEM is going to set up shop and deliver results that you are seeking, even at a hefty price of $20 billion (estimated cost *NOW* for 110 fighters). Billions of dollars are spent by these OEMs to create their wares - GE for engines, Raytheon for radars and missiles, Lockheed Martin for aircraft design and manufacture, etc. What planet is the MoD on, by expecting these companies to hand over this via ToT?

Philip: First off, stop calling this a deal. This is thievery of the Indian taxpayer by the Babus in the MoD, successive Govts (regardless of political affiliation) who do not understand the value of your own military industrial complex and by a few at Air HQ drooling over brochures. Now before anyone accuses me of maligning serving personnel, please think about why the Top Brass in the United States Air Force is continuing to pour billions of dollars into the F-35 program despite all the serious issues that plague that aircraft? They must be crazy to spend that money ---> already rumoured to be a Trillion (yes Trillion with a T) dollar program. What is with this fascination in the Indian Air Force that your local product must be 100% perfect at the very first instance?

You cannot expect to replace legacy MiG-21s and MiG-27s with state-of-the-art 4++ generation silver bullets in triple digit numbers, when your annual defence allocation is piss poor. With that in mind, the acquisition of large numbers (triple digits) of fighters can only be the Tejas despite the Indian Express news report that the Mk1A is more expensive than contemporary 4th gen fighters. That is a lifafa article written solely to justify importing.

In every respect, the Tejas Mk1 is better than the MiG-21 that it was designed to replace. The Mk1A program is moving slower than the MRCA acquisition. By the end of this week, the vendors have to respond to the RFI in the MRCA contest. What is the progress on the Mk1A? What is the MoD doing? What is the GOI doing? Where is the sense of urgency in the Mk1A program, that is there in the MRCA acquisiton? However by Boeing's own admission, it will likely take up to two years for the MRCA acquisition to be complete. What is the roadmap for the Mk1A be in two years time? Does anyone in the MoD or the GOI have any clue?

On the Tejas Mk1, the issue is pretty black and white. Either the Mk1 is a piece of sh!t, with all the pilots and engineers of No 45 Sqn lying through their teeth about the plane or the reverse is true - the plane is great and exceeds a pilot's expectations. There is no grey area or in-between. Yes there are issues, but if Lockeed Martin (a company that has ridiculously more experience than HAL in fighter design and large scale manufacture) can have issues with the F-35...then the Tejas is no exception. Calling the Tejas a three legged cheetah really does not help the situation. Rather infuse money into a third line, resolve the issues and complete development of the Kaveri, Mk1A and Mk2. IMHO, the main issue is the Kaveri. This is the *ONLY* solution for the IAF to acquire a fighter in triple digit numbers. Also throw this competition out the window and acquire 36 - 44 more Rafales off the shelf, get offsets via components and be done with this tamasha.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jul 2018 09:45

Podcast: Breaking down MMRCA 2.0
https://www.stratpost.com/podcast-break ... mmrca-2-0/

Angad Singh and Pushan Das help StratPost editor Saurabh Joshi understand how the new Indian Air Force contest for fighter aircraft (MMRCA 2.0) will be different from the last one, why cost needs to be a priority and why it will take two general elections before an order is placed. Now that all six of the aircraft pitched in the earlier Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest have confirmed their participation in the new contest, Angad and Pushan explain how the process will play out with the RFI deadline on 06 July 2018.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby souravB » 04 Jul 2018 13:35

Rakesh wrote:Sourav: No one is going to provide ToT that this convoluted RFI asks for. Even this whole we-make-AL31FP-engine-from-raw-material-stage is bullsh1t. If we made that engine from scratch, as HAL claims, we should have no problem porting that "knowledge" over to the Kaveri program, no? No OEM is going to set up shop and deliver results that you are seeking, even at a hefty price of $20 billion (estimated cost *NOW* for 110 fighters). Billions of dollars are spent by these OEMs to create their wares - GE for engines, Raytheon for radars and missiles, Lockheed Martin for aircraft design and manufacture, etc. What planet is the MoD on, by expecting these companies to hand over this via ToT?

Rakeshji, exactly my thoughts. what I meant by manufacturing processes was assembling the final product(I wasn't exactly finding the right words). A truly fifth generation aircraft need exactly 0 tolerance at assembly level or stealth might be compromised. QC control is another area where it is vital to employ innovative techniques for innovative products.
If HAL takes 1 month to assemble a Tejas where the fault tolerance has a leeway, I think about AMCA and shiver in my dhoti. Even Russia facing this problem during production of Su-57 due to moving from the philosophy of ruggedness to sophistication.
for reference:
excerpt below this link
Manufacturing tolerances are one of the key factors in building a stealth aircraft. The F-22, for example, had manufacturing tolerances of 1/10,000 of an inch. The F-35’s production line is orders of magnitude more tight than even the F-22, which was built using comparatively dated manufacturing techniques. Indeed, one of the reasons that the F-35 makes use of less stealth coatings and gap fillers is because of the extremely tight manufacturing tolerances. The Russians—who in the post-Soviet era have relied on imported manufacturing tools primarily from Europe—simply do not have the precise manufacturing capabilities to mass-produce a stealth aircraft.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 05 Jul 2018 04:05

Rakesh, the dereliction of duty in shabby support of the LCA was called a fraud upon the nation years ago by a former VCoAS.Despite the push to "clear the hill" in the last few years, thanks to the NDA-2 regime, thd concentrated effort to build hundreds of desi LCAs and the improved MK-2 which will meet the IAF's previous performance parameters of a decade ago (!), has still not materialised.

I remember a statement official that Sulur would be operational with the first sqd. in 2011! It has taken 7 extra years for a measly handful of LCAs to arrive there. The production drawbacks with the LCA apart from sustained development, where by now the MK-2 should've at least been in the flight testing regime, is why this raid on the poor taxpayer's pocket for anothef firang bird, MMFRA redux, is being perpetrated.The roadmap for cost-effective solutions exist, but the firang fighter lobby remains as strong as ever.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby dinesha » 06 Jul 2018 22:03

Six global companies respond to India's RFI for 110 fighter jets
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 887437.cms

Game on, six vendors in contest to supply IAF with 110 fighters
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 883_1.html

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 06 Jul 2018 23:49

dinesha wrote:Six global companies respond to India's RFI for 110 fighter jets
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 887437.cms

Game on, six vendors in contest to supply IAF with 110 fighters
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 883_1.html

Sheer insanity. After wasting more than 15 years with the original MRCA fiasco, they are starting the same thing again, with the same aircraft. This will also end the same way. Looks like nobody in our decision making circles has any common sense left.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 Jul 2018 03:21

^^^ +108! That is only "known" variable....lack of common sense.

Colonel Shukla's article raises some interesting points. I reproduce below;

What the air force wants
• 110 multi-role fighters, capable of roles of air superiority, air defence, ground and maritime strike, reconnaissance and electronic warfare.
• 15% of the order to be supplied in flyaway condition and 85% made in India.
• OEMs to transfer design, development, manufacturing and repair expertise to India.
• OEMs to offer high-value technologies as part of the contract. Must specify scope, depth and range of technology transfer.
• OEMs to indicate “Indigenisation Content” it would achieve while building fighter in India.
Flyaway fighters to be delivered 3-5 years from contract, Made in India in 5-12 years.
• 75% single-seat fighters and 25% twin seat variants.
OEM must provide “performance linked warranty” for aircraft to fly minimum 150 hours per year, for ten years.
• Doors opened for Make in India by private sector, or by public sector (HAL)
• Twin seat variant should have all the operational capabilities of single-seat variant

On the red bolded sentence, we are still in RFI stage. As per Boeing's own admission it will be at least two years before a contract is signed. Knowing our convoluted procurement cycle, it could take even longer. But for arguments sake, lets take Boeing's word. So that will take us to 2020. From that date, the first deliveries will begin in 2023. That is the industry standard norm of 3 years. All the flyaway fighters are expected to be delivered by 2025. From 2025, the first batch of the Made in India fighters are expected to be begin and all deliveries are expected to be completed by 2037. Think about this. We are about to waste billion of dollars to induct a 4+ generation platform, in which deliveries will be complete only by 2037!

Just remember, these fighters are to serve as the IAF's backbone for at least the next 40 years. So when the last fighter rolls off the production line in 2037, she will likely retire in 2077!

On the blue bolded sentence, does the MoD have any iota of a clue as to how much these OEMs will charge us for 150 hours per year, for 10 years, for 110 aircraft? That is 150 hours/yr x 110 aircraft x 10 years = 165,000 hours. Calculate how much billions the the OEMs will charge for spares and maintenance for this ten year warranty. What happens after 10 years? The costs - like any machine - will only go up. And we will fork out even more billions at that point, assuming the IAF wants to maintain that level of serviceability for these aircraft. The single engine fighters might be cheaper, with the dual engine fighters being likely more expensive to maintain. What amazing common sense the MoD has displayed with this RFI.

That adds up to an overall contract price of $10.66 billion for the cheapest single-engine fighters, to $19.46 billion for the high-end, twin-engine fighters.

If costs are a main factor in this decision, it will boil down to a single engine fighter. The IAF will never take the F-16 and it will get the Gripen E. Bean counters at the MoD and the Ministry of Finance know clearly well that there is a $10 billion gap between the single engine and dual engine fighters. If the Gripen E does come for the Indian Air Force, then the GoI might very well hand the Navy contest to the F-18 Super Hornet. On cost, the Rhino will win hands down over the Rafale M.

The cost of weaponry, spares, base infrastructure and simulators would be over and above that.

This will likely separate the winner from the rest of the crowd. But I don't see anything short of at least another $5 - $10 billion for weaponry, spares, base infrastructure, simulators and COST of factory for local assembly. So for a single engine fighter, around $15 - $20 billion in total (planes + spares + weaponry + base infrastructure + factory COST). The twin engine fighter will be around $25 - $30 billion with the same parameters as the single engine fighter.

Think about this ---> MoD is willing to fork out billions for a foreign OEM to Make in India, but yet that same philosophy cannot be applied to the Tejas. Why not invest in a Tejas line for TASL? Why not invest in production efficiencies in the two existing Tejas lines? If the Indian Express article is true - I still believe it is a lifafa article, written solely to justify importing - then if a third line is established at TASL, watch how HAL falls quickly in line.

110 fighters / 18 aircraft in a squadron = 6+ squadrons. So investment has to be made for base infrastructure, simulators, weaponry and spares (but obviously not factory) for those six squadrons. Assuming two squadrons per base, so investment at minimum three air bases. If the birds are meant to be stationed at more than three airbases, costs go even higher.

Rafale is the clear winner on weaponry, spares, base infrastructure and simulators. None of the other contenders can make that claim. The question is can the other OEMs bring their cost down for all of the above to beat Dassault or can Dassault bring down the unit cost of the Rafale to beat the other OEMs? On the latter, I highly doubt Dassault can do that at 110 birds. The Rafale is a state-of-the-art, but expensive bird and Dassault is not running a charity organization. But a repeat order of two additional squadrons (36 - 44 birds) will make Dassault the clear winner, as there is no need for expenditure on base infrastructure. Ambala and Hasimara can both house two squadrons *EACH* of the Rafale. The only additional expenditure will be weaponry and spares.

The gap of 4 squadrons - with two additional Rafale squadrons - should be made up by the Tejas Mk1, which can be upgraded to the Mk1A. You cannot expect to replace legacy MiG-21s with expensive silver bullets. That is madness. Four additional Tejas squadrons will be 80 aircraft. 40 Tejas Mk1s + 83 Tejas Mk1As on order right now. 80 additional Tejas birds is peanuts compared to 110 silver bullets, despite the kool aid being delivered by the OEMs and which many have gotten drunk on (incl a few on this forum).

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 07 Jul 2018 04:18

- Trash MMRCA
- Invest in AMCA
- Energize Tejas Mk2

Commit 200 AMCAs & 400 Tejas Mk2 variants. Enough of this mother of all deals. If push comes to shove, get the Sukhoi super-30 going. The chinese have fizzled out after their stealth exposure.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 Jul 2018 06:50

SaiK, total number of aircraft acquired must conform to the IAF's ORBAT of 42 squadrons. After all, it is the IAF who keeps repeating that they need 42 squadrons to maintain air supremacy in a two front war.

So right now, the IAF has around 30 squadrons. As of today, the IAF has the following;

Su-30: Nine Squadrons
MiG-29: Three Squadrons
Mirage 2000: Three Squadrons
Jaguar IS/IB: Five Squadrons
Jaguar IM: One Squadron
MiG-27UPG: Two Squadrons
MiG-21bis: Seven Squadrons

I am not fully sure about the MiG-21s, but around 30 squadrons in total is the force structure as of today and the above tally is 30 squadrons. I am keeping the Tejas out of the mix and I cannot include the Rafale, because deliveries will only be complete by 2022 I believe. So as of today, the IAF is short of 12 squadrons. Now Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa - at Air Force Day in October 2017 - said that the IAF will achieve 42 squadrons by 2032. If the above article is correct, the IAF will face - at minimum - a delay of five years.

Now if additional Tejas are ordered (and a third Tejas line is opened with a private manufacturer like TASL), in addition to two more Rafale squadrons, the IAF can achieve 42 squadrons before 2030 and be two years ahead of schedule. See below (using the 18 aircraft per squadron rule);

Su-30MKI: 15 squadrons @ 272 aircraft (as per order book).
Mirage 2000: 3 squadrons @ 45 aircraft
MiG-29: 3 squadrons @ 54 aircraft
Jaguar: 4 squadrons to last to 2035 - 2040, after the Darin III upgrade
Tejas Mk1: 2 squadrons
Tejas Mk1A: 4 squadrons
Rafale: 4 squadrons

The above comes to 35 squadrons. Now if 80 more Tejas (4 more squadrons) are ordered instead, that number jumps to 39 squadrons. For a gap of three squadrons, why do we need MMRCA? In terms of production schedules, both lines at HAL are expected to churn out 8 per year by 2019. So 16 aircraft in total. If TASL gets a third line and produce 8 aircraft per year, that is 24 aircraft. 40 Tejas Mk1 + 83 Tejas Mk1A + additional 80 Tejas birds = 200+ birds. So 200 / 24 per yr = 8+ years.

Apart from numbers, compare the firepower capability of the IAF now and the IAF 10 years from now.

- Legacy MiG-21s and MiG-27s all gone.
- Jaguar Darin IIIs
- MiG-29UPG
- Mirage 2000I
- Super Sukhoi upgrade
- Rafale
- Tejas Mk1A

Rather than build silver bullets at TASL, lay the foundation stone NOW for a third Tejas line instead. If the factory is ready by 2021 (not sure if it needs that long), all 200 Tejas birds can be had by 2030. A full seven years quicker than this MMRCA acquisition. By the early 2030s, replacements for the MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and Jaguar will begin. That can be taken over by the Tejas Mk2 variant, which is under development now.

So what is the problem? Not directed at you SaiK :)

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 Jul 2018 09:48

And while the MoD launches the MMRCA competition, see this. When will we ever learn!!! :roll:

Why the Indian Air Force is in dire need of combat enablers
https://www.dailyo.in/variety/why-india ... 25247.html

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 Jul 2018 09:52

Race begins for sale of 110 combat jets to IAF
https://www.deccanherald.com/national/r ... 79473.html

Sources told DH this time the ASQR would be slightly less stringent to allow more firms to be shortlisted in the first round so that the final price became more competitive.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby la.khan » 07 Jul 2018 10:28

Sad to see the evil MMRCA contest resurrected :evil: Can't believe GoI/MoD/IAF want to go through this circus again :shock: The last time they went through this rigmarole, we realized we can't afford the numbers after the winner, Rafale, was selected :P

This time when the RFIs were sent out, the *SAME* companies show up offering the *SAME* products :P I wish one of the companies would ask GoI/MoD/IAF if we can afford to pay for all this? Because, the last time we couldn't :oops:

I wonder who are the bigger idiots in this ridiculous fiasco - GoI/MoD/IAF or the companies :P

On a related note: why does the IAF want to re-evaluate all the contestants all over again? IMHO, going forward, we will have 4 lines for fighter jets within the country.

Light: Tejas Mk1/1A/2/whatever; HAL owned
Medium: AMCA (HAL/TASL/whoever owned); Rafale (Reliance/Adani/whoever owned)
Heavy: Su30MKI; HAL owned

In the next 15-20-25 years, any future IAF jet fighter requirement, they get to choose from these lines. The IAF can choose the mix they wish to have and not start another circus, spend 10+ years, while :(( about falling fighter squadrons

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby dinesha » 07 Jul 2018 12:56


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Prasad » 07 Jul 2018 14:56

• OEMs to transfer design, development, manufacturing and repair expertise to India.
• OEMs to offer high-value technologies as part of the contract. Must specify scope, depth and range of technology transfer.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Pratyush » 07 Jul 2018 15:21

Rakesh wrote:Race begins for sale of 110 combat jets to IAF
https://www.deccanherald.com/national/r ... 79473.html

Sources told DH this time the ASQR would be slightly less stringent to allow more firms to be shortlisted in the first round so that the final price became more competitive.



But the asqr will still be sufficient to rule out the mk2 Tejas. Cause if mk2 was desired. This circus would not be taking place.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Jul 2018 15:54

^^could these requirements be chanikian plot to promote MII? Or am I too high on desi "maal"

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 08 Jul 2018 14:20

MMRCA redux is due to pressure from firang OEMs and their desi partners who were dxpecting huge contracts post 2014.It's why our flying " Maruti", is being sneered at with additional IAF lust for an impored flying machine .Unfortunately, our flying Mafuti isn't being produced fast enough either by inefficiency or design, leaving us with little option but to consider a firang bird yet again.As someone put it, our great hope is that MOD babudom will perform "as per usual", and this exercise too will bite the dust leaving no alternative but for a desi solution.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 09 Jul 2018 00:38

Rak bhai, I didn't dig details of numbers yet, and I don't have the timelines of service, retirements, and operational lives of all these platforms. I was just putting a big enough number to get our industry going and at the same time satisfy the operational and capability requirements.

Long run may be hard for us to keep total independences, but how about reducing that independence to only LRUs and sub-components - this is our vision (my understanding) - of course, you and I would be long dead if we near that vision. But, our focus should be LCA Mk2 and AMCA, where the majority strike force is home grown - light to medium a/c. once we have the capability matured, we can venture from there for other platforms.

I strongly think, light to medium category, we have to keep our hands way more deep than one off purchase like Rafale or a ToT aspect at screw driver levels. This, we have tried, been there and done that for almost 5 decades now. holy molly, the MMRCA first draft off the M2K needs is still pending, and there is no time left now for us to breath to plan well.

We are maturing, and that is good enough for me.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby souravB » 09 Jul 2018 03:42

Just a Jingo's wishful thinking.
with the recent news of FGFA not being dead, if we acquire and produce it as AHCA(bigger and dog fighter version of AMCA) to replace Su-30(when the time comes), it makes sense to acquire more sqdns of Rafale now to support the depleting fleet with AMCA to make up the rest of it.
It also makes sense in a way where you have the bulk of your fleet as Medium multi role ac. in the future from 2035-40 onwards we can have
1. Mk1(A) for point defence 8-10 sq
2. Mk2 10 sq, Rafale 7-8 sq and AMCA 6-7 sq for multi role missions with Rafale being the replacement for Jags as bomb trucks
3. AHCA for air superiority 8-10 sq for the future after su-30 retires
Buying an aircraft doesn't mean we necessarily abandon Tejas project, somethings we have to consider and bite the bullet in view of a long term planning. I hope IAF factors in indigenous capability when planning long term replacements and push for it. The bhelpuri type acquisition where buying it as we need may have been good enough but streamlining it is the need of the hour.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 09 Jul 2018 17:44

This fellow's article and timings suits this dhaaga than Tejas thread. Perfect paid role player or a goon.

Tejas misses another deadline for being fully combat-ready
https://m.timesofindia.com/india/tejas- ... 911632.cms
Last edited by SaiK on 09 Jul 2018 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 09 Jul 2018 18:21

Why the GOIs of the day have not wrung out the LCA team to dry beats me.Babudom consistently shot down the appointment of a DG for the ADA responsible for the programme with hire and fire powers.It is all too evident now that the problem lies mainly not with HAL but in the MOD,whose babus appear to be working for the intetests of firanf OEMs either by omission or commission, pun intended! One would be most happy to be proven wrong, but the appatent lack of interest in the fortunes of the LCA by the MOD give rise to such speculation.

In the national interest the LCA should be run by the PMO and not the MOD , monitored 24X 7,if we are to succeed in full.Otherwise it will end up in this fiasco of the M(M)RCA redux!The PM should take charge in similar fashion as the ATV programme and other sensitive programmes are run from his secretariat directly..

Frankly now the situ is resembling the AJT mother of all fiascos, whete after 3 decades the IAF selected the Hawk after the most of the major and minor air forces had done so .much earlier.That was the result of the AM La Fontaine committee which looked into IAF crashes and recommrnded immediate acquisition of an AJT.The good AM later became ACM, then retired and long after his retirement 2 decades later the Hawk finally arrived!
It would be most interesting to see which ACM CoAS was in the seat when the MMRCA was first mooted and which future ACM will be the lucky one who will see these birds arrive!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Jul 2018 01:01

Gripen Marketing Department at it again! :)


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 21 Jul 2018 01:03

To save time, Govt may bypass field trials in MMRCA 2.0
http://bharatshakti.in/to-save-time-gov ... mmrca-2-0/

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is working on formulating a set of QRs (qualitative requirements) against which it is likely to benchmark the bids submitted by six major aircraft manufacturers for supply of 110 fighter jets, instead of going through the tortuous process of field trials and evaluation, as was done in the previous such competition, more popularly known as the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, which underwent a long process for eight years. The latest competition, announced in April, was open to both single and twin engine combat jets like last time. The deadline to submit the bids was 6 July. All the six competitors–American firms Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russian Aircraft Corporation, Dassault of France, Swedish manufacturer Saab and European consortium, Eurofighter GmbH–had also participated in the earlier tender for supply of 126 fighters which was eventually withdrawn before India decided to buy 36 Rafale jets from the French under a G-to-G (government to government) deal signed in September 2016.

Having tested the six aircraft in contention during the extensive field trials in the earlier competition, the IAF more or less knows the capabilities that each of the aircraft bring to the table. The Request for Information (RFI), put out in April had a detailed questionnaire for all competitors, seeking details of upgrades that the aircraft fielded for the latest tender would have undergone in the intervening years since the fields trials under MMRCA took place. The aircraft are: four twin-engine fighters–the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Block III, Eurofighter Typhoon, MiG-35 and Rafale and two single-engine jets– F-16 Block 70 and Gripen E.

The IAF’s acquisition branch is now scrutinising all the six bids, running into thousands of pages. The exercise is likely to take at least three-four months before all the six documents are placed in a common matrix and then evaluated against the set of QRs that are being prepared separately. The next step, according to informed sources, will be to shortlist two or three aircraft that meet the air force requirement. “Another round of field trials is not necessary given that we already know the capability of each of the aircraft. Since our fighter squadron strength is now in a precarious position, we need to close this deal as fast as possible,” explained a defence official familiar with the process. Once the shortlist is ready, the IAF will take the matter to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) and seek directions on the next steps. The government will have to decide quickly on how to make the final selection.

Top decision makers in the government have pointed out that none of India’s fighter jet acquisitions in the past have come through a competitive bidding. The only time it was tried was in the MMRCA tender. Finally though the process had to be scrapped and the Rafales bought through a G-to-G deal because of differences in calculating the cost of manufacturing. So, a repeat of that process in MMRCA 2.0 looks unlikely. Although there is merit in this approach, the final decision will depend on how the government wants to use this huge purchase order to its advantage and what the strategic environment is when the time to make the choice comes which, by all indications, will be after the next general elections at the earliest.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ramana » 25 Jul 2018 02:18

Top decision makers in the government have pointed out that none of India’s fighter jet acquisitions in the past have come through a competitive bidding. The only time it was tried was in the MMRCA tender.


This is erroneous.
For the DPSA three aircraft were candidates; Mirage F1, Jaguar, and the Saab Viggen. Jaguar was eventually chosen. The flight testing was done in the country of origin.

Same with Mig 21s Only after IAF test pilots flew the aircraft in early 1960s it was chosen. The other candidates were English Electric Lightning and F-104. EE Lightning was expensive and F-104 US refused to set up mfg plant.

Mig 21 did not have gun and IAF requested it to be added. First solution was gun pod and then integral gun was added.
These MoD officials who don't know history should not talk.
If decision was needed due to having no plan B then say so.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 25 Jul 2018 02:40

Ramana garu, the Viggen was blocked by US. I don't think there was competitive bidding done between Mirage F1 and Jaguar. Same story with the Mig-21. F-104 was refused and Lightning was also refused IIRC. Turned out to be a blessing in disguise but again there were no bids submitted.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 03:40

Saab to ramp-up Gripen E trials as two new prototypes prepare for flight
http://www.janes.com/article/81925/saab ... for-flight

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 03:55

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1022062547875164161 ---> The real problem with all govts in New Delhi since 1992 has been that there have been these 'globalist' interests embedded with them in an advisory capacity. They have only served to delay the growth of domestic capabilities in the name of 'free trade' & pave the way for imports.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1022063130363408384 ---> Some of these chaps talk as if even the defence sector is characterized by free trade.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1022064201718611968 ---> There is no folly in pursuing a policy of 'import substitution' in this new era of worldwide protectionism. The only question is whether it is being pursued doggedly enough ... and in the right sectors.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1022072177892311040 ---> Purna Swaraj will only happen with the indigenization of critical industrial capabilities and an ethos of domestic intellectual property creation which will drive competitive advantage in trade. Rest is all fluff.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Will » 29 Jul 2018 12:35

This whole process has become a joke. No way is this deal going to be signed in 2 years. That will take it well past 2040 before the last aircraft is in. The costs are going to be massive to. All this for a 4++ generation aircraft when 5th gen aircraft will be proliferating in the neighbourhood and the world will start moving towards 6th aircraft.

For all Philips arguments it was good riddance to the PAKFA in its current form and Russian attitudes. But this has left the IAF in a dangerous position. It will have no option but to go in for the F-35 and Uncle Sam is waiting for this to get a vice like grip on the Indian armed forces. No way will it sell India the F-35 without all those agreements it’s pushing for and everyone know how sanction happy Uncle Sam is. There goes India’s strategic autonomy.

The way forward would be to ramp up LCA numbers. Buy 2-3 additional Rafale sqns. Tie up with a foreign major for the AMCA and rope in the private sector in a big way. L&T has built and is literally the systems integrator for the nuclear subs , whichever way one may package it. Going with the private sector gives more flexibility. HAL should be broken up and sold off.

Worst case scenario buy 2-3 sqns of F-35’s off the shelf. But in no way put your b**ls in uncle Sams hands by buying the bulk of your airforce from the US. Whichever govt signs all those agreements that the US is pushing for should be held accountable for treason.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Will » 29 Jul 2018 12:42

...
Last edited by Rakesh on 01 Aug 2018 01:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Post deleted, as you have quoted your own post with no new information.


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