MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Philip
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 15 Feb 2019 22:05

The buck stops with the govt. of thd day.It CAN take emergency measures and purchases like the ammo buy not too long ago.G-2-G deals are swift and sure in general.It cuts out arms dealers fishing and vested interests within the services to an extent. The manner in which Mrs.G. Sam Manekshaw and co. severed Pak into two should be our handbook., bedside reading for the CCS members.
The whole MMRCA farce could've been avoided by greater intelligent focus vy the principal stakeholder, the GOI.They believed or were apathetic about the tall tales of the ADA/ HAL about the LCA with the program sneered at by the IAF for long.

The desperate talk about buying more MIG-29s, which should've been done a decade ago highlights the general incompetrnce of our defence planners, the lack of a grand strategy for Indian security and the failure of the political.elite to give national security its due.The share of GDP for defence has never been so low.The lead time for modernising and replacing obsolete eqpt. takes years with our torturous approval process.
Knee-jerk responses is the order of the day.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 16 Feb 2019 00:26

Rakesh wrote:CAG slams NDA-1 for delaying Rafale deal, but lauds its move against IAF pitch
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 001116.cms

The IAF did not give up its bid to acquire the advanced version of Mirage jets and resubmitted its proposal, stating that other options like Rafale, Eurofighter and F-35 planes were technologically superior but costlier. The force claimed that the "excess combat capacity" of the aircraft would remain under utilized. Despite another cold shoulder, the IAF resubmitted its proposal in December 2001. With IAF now arguing that the procurement be treated as a "repeat purchase", discussions were held between Dassault Aviation, HAL, DRDO and finance ministry from April to September 2002. In its report tabled in Parliament on Wednesday, the CAG expressed strong disapproval of this delay which dragged on till January 2004, before finally being junked and the IAF being directed to begin competitive tendering. Though the CAG report did not go into possible reasons why the then government indulged the IAF, it seems possible that the victory of the armed forces in the Kargil War - and the stellar role of the air force - may have made the Vajpayee government more receptive to the arguments for the Mirage 2000-5 acquisition. "Thus, four years were spent on deciding whether to procure the aircraft on single source basis or through competitive tendering," the CAG said.

Awesome. So the IAF knew exactly what would happen if the MRCA circus was allowed to happen and they warned the government of it. They were overruled and here we are 17 years later where they have been proved right. If the government had listened to the IAF back then, we wouldn't have wasted time and money on MRCA and would have had 7 more squadrons of capable 4th gen aircraft available to the IAF. Yet the CAG somehow thinks the government was right to refuse the IAF's pitch? I mean the results are there before everyone to see.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby fanne » 16 Feb 2019 05:24

A story that goes unreported is that an IAS babu, raised the objection, submitting that it cannot be a repeat buy, it will violate xyz and should be rebid. He felt very proud at his retirement that he stopped the mighty IAF from acquiring the Mirage 2000-5.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 16 Feb 2019 08:35

Who was the DM at the time? And the IAF chief? That would be an interesting footnote.I wonder whether the extras option
clause was included in the initial contract, for both M2Ks and MIG-29s.Had they been there the IAF could've simply exercised that option.The IN had an option for extra Talwars..at the same price, but babudom famously waited for the date to pass placing the order some months later! Had the extras of either type been ordered we'd have 3 to 4 sqds. in service, plus no wasted years on the MMRCA fiasco.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 17 Feb 2019 19:48

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1097048677217120256 ---> That’s one fine MiG hoarding as you pull out of Bangalore’s airport. Nice art, UAC Russia and nice touch with ‘MiG’ in Kannada.

Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 18 Feb 2019 22:33

Perhaps the Russians are buoyed by the recent CAG report.... :lol:

Russia offers India tech transfer to sweeten deal amid ongoing negotiations for large MiG-35 order
https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... g-35-order

Regarding Russia’s willingness to provide technology transfers Ilya Tarasenko, Vice President of UAC, stated: "We are ready not only to supply ready-made aircraft, but also to transfer the necessary technologies and documentation to partner enterprises for the production of these fighters in India. The new model implies a transition from the system of providing scattered services and the provision of specific spare parts to the provision of standardised indicators of the final result: the level of system operability, the level of operational reliability of the material part, the total cost of ownership of the weapon system and military equipment for the customer, as well as average downtime.” He further stated that the MiG-35 had evolved to better suit the Indian Air Force’s requirements, and that the fighter has changed dramatically in order to fully comply with the requirements of the Indian Air Force. This statement came very shortly after the Indian Air Force placed an order for further MiG-29UPG fighters - seen as a temporary means of expanding its light fighter fleet in the interim until more heavy fighters could be acquired. While acquisition of the MiG-35 was already highly likely amid ongoing negations, the possibility of more favourable terms for a technology transfer from the Indian perspective make this all the more likely and could lead to a larger order for the aircraft.


Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Feb 2019 12:07

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/lockheed-unveils-new-f-21-fighter-jet-configured-for-india/articleshow/68075149.cms

Lockheed unveils new F-21 fighter jet configured for India

Anyone aware what this New F-21 is all about?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Will » 20 Feb 2019 12:18

Aditya_V wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/lockheed-unveils-new-f-21-fighter-jet-configured-for-india/articleshow/68075149.cms

Lockheed unveils new F-21 fighter jet configured for India

Anyone aware what this New F-21 is all about?


They just decide too use the Russian strategy of renaming old aircraft and offering them as new :mrgreen: . It’s just a F16 with new paint and a new name. LM provides the name and they will outsource the paint job to Tata :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_P » 20 Feb 2019 12:24

You have got to hand it to them.. they are persistent.

Lockheed Martin unveils F-21 multirole fighter specifically configured for IAF

Well a pig Viper by other name is still a Viper


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Feb 2019 12:32

Well I doubt other than basic stuff anything else will get outsourced to TATA

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Lisa » 20 Feb 2019 12:59

We should buy it, 21>16.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Pratyush » 20 Feb 2019 13:00

Just as we bought a rebadged upgraded tincan in the late 90s and killed Arjun.

The yanks are thinking of doing the same with f 21 and mk2

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby chetak » 20 Feb 2019 13:05

Will wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/lockheed-unveils-new-f-21-fighter-jet-configured-for-india/articleshow/68075149.cms

Lockheed unveils new F-21 fighter jet configured for India

Anyone aware what this New F-21 is all about?


They just decide too use the Russian strategy of renaming old aircraft and offering them as new :mrgreen: . It’s just a F16 with new paint and a new name. LM provides the name and they will outsource the paint job to Tata :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:



why are they so desperate??

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_P » 20 Feb 2019 13:08

Lisa wrote:We should buy it, 21>16.


There is the 17, which is one better than the 16

This is the 21, which is just one less of the 22

:mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby tushar_m » 20 Feb 2019 13:13

Any sales to IAF means 30+ years of service ,upgrades etc etc ....

very lucrative opportunity .

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Austin » 20 Feb 2019 13:21

As some one said , PAF would be operating F-16 we would be operating F-16 , But 21 > 16 :wink:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby chetak » 20 Feb 2019 13:21

tushar_m wrote:Any sales to IAF means 30+ years of service ,upgrades etc etc ....

very lucrative opportunity .


should they not keep these jobs in their own country??

why shift to India??, they were not invited or even encouraged to do so.

It is their own initiative, misinterpreting and needlessly hyping the "make in India" theme to guilt India into purchasing an ancient technology.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby chetak » 20 Feb 2019 13:24

Austin wrote:As some one said , PAF would be operating F-16 we would be operating F-16 , But 21 > 16 :wink:



and we would effectively be subsidizing, among a whole host of other things, the flagging supply chain to support paki F-16s??

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby chola » 20 Feb 2019 13:28

Rebranding the F-16 as the 21 is a dumb sophmoric move.

No on the MiG-35. That platform is way past its time.

Please HAL, deliver on the Tejas so these phoren temptations are moot.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Yagnasri » 20 Feb 2019 13:34

21-16 = 5. Don't they have F5 already which they renamed as F20 earlier. I hope only people earning money on this are the printing people of the brochar.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby abhijitm » 20 Feb 2019 13:40

looks exactly like F-16 :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 20 Feb 2019 14:21

F-21? Hoping numerology will get them the deal.The MIG-21 was a great success story with hundreds built.LM hope the same lucky number will sucker the IAF into buying it!

This is the good old Hindusthan Motors marketing strategy of Amby variants.MK-1/2/3...then came the Nova.I had to send my brand new co. Nova back to the workshop to be rewelded, etc.It spent 8 months of the first yr. in thr garage and on an early trip, the headlight fell off during a light drizzle.No wonder HM used to boast that every village mechanic could repair it as it broke down so often from village to village!

The F-21 will feature a choice of cockpit seat colours, maybe a wider screen HUD, new camouflage paint pattern, and an increased speed of the ejector seat by 1 kmph. :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_P » 20 Feb 2019 14:43

Yagnasri wrote: Don't they have F5 already which they renamed as F20 earlier.


And there was also some visible difference in that the F5 was twin engine whereas F20 was single engine (although with much more thrust)

The F21/F16V mostly sees upgrades in the sensors/electronics

"The F-21 is different inside and out," said Dr Vivek Lall, vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics.


yeah just like the MiG 29 and the MiG 35

well the Rafale is (and looks) much different to the Mirage 2000, inside and out.

Hopefully we will have many more Rafales

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Feb 2019 15:43

abhijitm wrote:looks exactly like F-16 :rotfl:

who would know? Didnt you notice people using all sort of planes during rafale allegation scandal

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Feb 2019 17:24

searched a bit for F21. No details of any sort in written, just marketing gimmicks. Only for those with a keen eye and experience to figure out from the visuals. Here's the product card from LM site.
https://lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/ ... 20Card.pdf

Another interesting line "india's pathway to F35"

The F-21 has common components and learning from Lockheed Martin’s 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 and will share a common supply chain on a variety of components. Approximately half of the F-21 and F-16 supply chains are common with the F-22 and F-35.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 20 Feb 2019 17:31

And here's the F-21:

Product Card from LM

Image

Played their cards well on the Make In India route. Sounds really tempting though.
“The F-21 provides unmatched ‘Make in India’ opportunities and strengthens India’s path to an advanced airpower future,” said in the company.

“The new [F-21] designation highlights our commitment to delivering an advanced, scalable fighter aircraft to the Indian Air Force that also provides unrivaled industrial opportunities and accelerates closer India-US cooperation on advanced technologies,” he added.


“The F-21 is different, inside and out, Vivek Lall,” vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said in a statement.



Reuters:

It said it expected to export planes from the proposed plant in India on top of the Indian requirements for an overseas market that it estimated at $20 billion.

It said production in India would create thousands of jobs for Indian industry as well as support hundreds of U.S.-based Lockheed Martin engineering, program management and customer support positions.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 20 Feb 2019 17:32

ArjunPandit wrote:searched a bit for F21. No details of any sort in written, just marketing gimmicks. Only for those with a keen eye and experience to figure out from the visuals. Here's the product card from LM site.
https://lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/ ... 20Card.pdf

Another interesting line "india's pathway to F35"

The F-21 has common components and learning from Lockheed Martin’s 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 and will share a common supply chain on a variety of components. Approximately half of the F-21 and F-16 supply chains are common with the F-22 and F-35.


Adding on what I could find and X-posting from Aero-India thread...
Mukesh.Kumar wrote:And here's the F-21:

Product Card from LM
Image

Played their cards well on the Make In India route. Sounds really tempting though.
“The F-21 provides unmatched ‘Make in India’ opportunities and strengthens India’s path to an advanced airpower future,” said in the company.

“The new [F-21] designation highlights our commitment to delivering an advanced, scalable fighter aircraft to the Indian Air Force that also provides unrivaled industrial opportunities and accelerates closer India-US cooperation on advanced technologies,” he added.


“The F-21 is different, inside and out, Vivek Lall,” vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said in a statement.



Reuters:

It said it expected to export planes from the proposed plant in India on top of the Indian requirements for an overseas market that it estimated at $20 billion.

It said production in India would create thousands of jobs for Indian industry as well as support hundreds of U.S.-based Lockheed Martin engineering, program management and customer support positions.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nam » 20 Feb 2019 17:34

There was a report I was reading a while back, where it mentions some babus telling LM guys.

Pak already has F16. It is not possible to buy the same jet. You have a better chance, if name it something else...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karthik S » 20 Feb 2019 17:34

Looks like F-16I Sufa of Israeli AF.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 20 Feb 2019 17:36

And here's the nice video-


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nam » 20 Feb 2019 17:37

The only thing they forgot add.. Since 21 is close to 22, than 18 or 35, it is already closer to F22.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Singha » 20 Feb 2019 17:41

the need to clear out old production machinery and space to ramp up JSF activities ... so they need a sucker to buy the story.

a new edge to edge bezeless MFD covering the whole cockpit, JSF quality radar (though sadly not the aperture or sw), EPE engine, a few EW gee gaws , "better than USAF F16" , and other rah rah.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Pratyush » 20 Feb 2019 17:42

Guys can we not post about solah renamed to ikees. As a contender.

If this is not a slap on the face of our procurement process then I don't know what is.

Besides which. Why not ask for f35 and have the Khan say no to it. Why keep on spending money on 4th generation jets that will be as expensive as the 5the gen plane when all costs are added up.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby arshyam » 20 Feb 2019 17:45

Sounds like a re-badged F16. Do we look like such suckers?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby souravB » 20 Feb 2019 17:50

Waiting for a piece in by the good Karnail extolling the virtue of 21>16.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 20 Feb 2019 18:04

Pratyush, agree. I see no logic in having the F-18 and F-16 in a race which could have had the F-35.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Nihat » 20 Feb 2019 18:27

They should at least put some more marketing effort if they're trying to hoodwink the iaf and goi into buying their rusting crap

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 20 Feb 2019 19:09

Latest offer from LM.Not even F-35 but F-371 Back to the future retro special.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Austin » 20 Feb 2019 21:22

F-16 Blk 70 or call it F-21 should be a good buy if IAF wants to bump up Squadron Number with Good Quality Aircraft with Low Maintenance ( single engine ) and proven airframe design.

IAF can easily up the squadron to 10-12 in shortest possible time with our fast depleting squadron number. This aircraft can replace the Mig-27 , 21 and Jaguar eventually. So replacing 3 types with a single one.

Tejas will come for sure but it will take time and there is no way IAF can guarantee HAL or some private player can bump up numbers quickly in the way LM can do for IAF ......Tejas Mk2 is still on drawing board and the singnificant design change means it will take time .......unpredictibility due to unknow Test Duration as well as Production issue.

IF US transfers deep tot for F-21 with local production like MKI and even for engine and a gurantee it wont be sanctioned for what we purchase and Life Long Support in terms of spares then we can go for this.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby naird » 20 Feb 2019 22:00

Austin wrote:F-16 Blk 70 or call it F-21 should be a good buy if IAF wants to bump up Squadron Number with Good Quality Aircraft with Low Maintenance ( single engine ) and proven airframe design.

IAF can easily up the squadron to 10-12 in shortest possible time with our fast depleting squadron number. This aircraft can replace the Mig-27 , 21 and Jaguar eventually. So replacing 3 types with a single one.

Tejas will come for sure but it will take time and there is no way IAF can guarantee HAL or some private player can bump up numbers quickly in the way LM can do for IAF ......Tejas Mk2 is still on drawing board and the singnificant design change means it will take time .......unpredictibility due to unknow Test Duration as well as Production issue.

IF US transfers deep tot for F-21 with local production like MKI and even for engine and a gurantee it wont be sanctioned for what we purchase and Life Long Support in terms of spares then we can go for this.


US should not be trusted even a little. Mission critical equipment should never be US dependent. Hope policymakers realize this. US (for all right reasons) has nation first policy - if India does not align with her national interest , they wont hestiate to put sanctions


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