MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Mar 2019 08:15

Lifafa Piece, Enjoy for Humour....

Dassault, Boeing and Saab — the front-runners for IAF’s 114 fighter jet contract
https://theprint.in/defence/dassault-bo ... ct/210472/

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 30 Mar 2019 10:28


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Austin » 02 Apr 2019 13:35


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2019 14:26

Austin wrote:And new AESA performance data

https://twitter.com/EmirLouise/status/1 ... 9353665536


Over the top twitter speculation isn't performance data.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 05 Apr 2019 03:38

Boeing offers to build 21st century aerospace ecosystem in India
https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 79265.html

"We have not framed up our responses to the government's request for information around a minimum order now, but what we've done is that show us your requirements and we'll show you what's possible inside your requirements. But certainly, the government recognises the programmatic constraints that the more it's able invest in a broader program that can cover multiple services, the more capacity for industrial development it will get," he said.

"We will shape our bid to the number. There's less we can do at a lower number in terms of what's Made in India. And to get to the full up ecosystem, the more the purchases, the more that can be done. It's a sliding scale. And remember it's also a sliding timescale," he said.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 12 Apr 2019 23:03

From Ajai Shukla. Piling on the pressure :)

Sitharaman calls for building indigenous military aircraft
https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/04 ... lding.html

However, there is little movement on the IAF’s only SP model procurement: to buy-and-build 114 multi-role fighter aircraft in India. Last April, the IAF issued a request for information (RFI), and seven fighter manufacturers expressed interest. A year later, with the ministry of defence (MoD) still fine-tuning the SP model, vendors are still awaiting an IAF tender.

For shortlisting and selecting SPs, the MoD must promulgate “implementation guidelines” for each of the four equipment categories. But while the broad policy framework has been formalised and retrospectively incorporated into the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2016, implementation guidelines have been drawn up only for naval helicopters.

Without implementation guidelines for choosing an SP for building aircraft, the MoD cannot issue a formal tender – also termed request for proposals (RFP) – for the 114-fighter procurement.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 13 Apr 2019 03:25

Is the Avro project even critical when the services are yet to procure so much critical eqpt? Typical sheikh chilli MPD IAF procurement and sadly even this GOI hasnt prioritized enough. Order the 83 Mk1A, 7 Akash squadrons, and 2 Phalcons instead! That 18,000 crore isnt chump change. Around 5500 crore for Akash, 5600 for the Phalcons, and put the rest towards the LCA Mk1A. The project is 50,000 crore and let the 6000 crore at least get it rolling. Put 1000 crore in expanding the ODL project by ordering another 1500 radios!!

That's 18,000 crore spent on something with real combat potential not giving a sweetheart deal for planes with limited usage requirements!!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Apr 2019 08:26

^The ridiculous inefficiencies in the procurement system is downright criminal, no bloody accountability.
The Navy still doesn't have the mine sweepers...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Khalsa » 13 Apr 2019 12:41

Rakesh wrote:From Ajai Shukla. Piling on the pressure :)

Sitharaman calls for building indigenous military aircraft
https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/04 ... lding.html

However, there is little movement on the IAF’s only SP model procurement: to buy-and-build 114 multi-role fighter aircraft in India. Last April, the IAF issued a request for information (RFI), and seven fighter manufacturers expressed interest. A year later, with the ministry of defence (MoD) still fine-tuning the SP model, vendors are still awaiting an IAF tender.

For shortlisting and selecting SPs, the MoD must promulgate “implementation guidelines” for each of the four equipment categories. But while the broad policy framework has been formalised and retrospectively incorporated into the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2016, implementation guidelines have been drawn up only for naval helicopters.

Without implementation guidelines for choosing an SP for building aircraft, the MoD cannot issue a formal tender – also termed request for proposals (RFP) – for the 114-fighter procurement.


He was very cheeky about his article on twitter ... almost trolling by saying Defence minister calls for domestic production yet sits on order for 114 MMRCA and killing the Su-57.
I was like what da ?

Of course domestic production begins by killing phoren dreams but then I realised he was trolling to increase clickys.
What the good Colonel can't bring himself to do is ... is admit that Defence minister is slowly strangulating phoren dreams without pissing off americans quickly all the while buying time and paving the road to domestic independence.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Singha » 13 Apr 2019 12:45

that seems to be the plan brother.
drag it on till the birds go home with endless loops and NOPs.

buy what we need, build what we must - but in uniquely apologetic indian way to not offend anyone by calling them money grubbing bandits

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Singha » 13 Apr 2019 12:51

Austin wrote:
And new AESA performance data

https://twitter.com/EmirLouise/status/1 ... 9353665536


this is the more interesting part::

APG-68 V9 (F-16 C/D/I)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 4~5 km+ ===> unmanned ELO drones
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 8~9 km+ ===> F22/B2 claimed
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 25~30 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 46~54 km+ ===> rafale/f18/EF/Tejas ?
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 66~80 km+ ===> mirage2000/F16/Mig29
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 78~95 km+ ===> su30/A320 class :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Singha » 13 Apr 2019 12:53

this low RCS from all aspects is what gives F22 the leverage to sneak in at high speed to about 15-20 kms undetected and volley AAMs well within the NEZ. the AAMs usually have a 15-20km range onboard radar, so they can go active moments after launch while F22 can escape.

thats why in exercises vs F15/16/18 it enjoys very good bvr kill ratio despite excellent radars on these. its tough to defeat so long as it sticks to this plan and does not close in.

in wvr, it does not enjoy any overwhelming advantages in a 1:1 merge and thats why various gun camera footages show f22 being locked up.

cheen might be thinking out of box and looking to target the awacs and tanker assets using hypersonic projectiles launched from land and sea that suffer no weight or range constraints. use A/C and drones as RF gathering tools to localize these orbits.

a type55 missile truck should be able to fire many SM3 sized boost-glide missiles with a slant range of 500-1000km against large targets, with the HTK 'darts' going active at around 75000 feet and diving down at Mach6 from above .... the SM3-CN need not climb to 300km instead fly along at 50km ceiling which way beyond the ceiling of any ship borne SAM. force massa to expend missile rounds to target these bogeys :D

large phased array swordfish type trailer mounted radars on shore can provide cues also

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Austin » 13 Apr 2019 14:01

Singha wrote:
Austin wrote:
And new AESA performance data

https://twitter.com/EmirLouise/status/1 ... 9353665536


this is the more interesting part::

APG-68 V9 (F-16 C/D/I)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 4~5 km+ ===> unmanned ELO drones
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 8~9 km+ ===> F22/B2 claimed
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 25~30 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 46~54 km+ ===> rafale/f18/EF/Tejas ?
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 66~80 km+ ===> mirage2000/F16/Mig29
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 78~95 km+ ===> su30/A320 class :mrgreen:


I recollect reading from drdo or Hal interview that MKI RCS was reduced to 3-4 m2 by application of ram and jags to 1 m2 and bison less than 1 m2

So band specific ram targettred at X band is useful and Drdo developed ram could reduce jags rcs by 60 % or less than half it’s rcs

But with conventional aircraft all these values can go for a toss once you hang different external ordinance and drop tanks etc the rcs value will get spiked drastically

An aircraft is a 3D target that keeps moving in 3D plane even stealth AC will give a spike at different angle and gemetry as it flies along

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby LakshmanPST » 25 Apr 2019 18:19

Question:-
How did India select Su30 MKI back in 90s...??? I tried to google but couldn't find proper answer...
I presume we bought them directly...
My question is, if we could buy almost 300 Su30s directly, why can't we take a similar route for procurement of 114 fighters...??? Why to go through all this MMRCA exercise...???

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 25 Apr 2019 20:04

Lakshman, there are many reasons for the initial contract of Su-30s signed in 1996. Air Chief Marshal Srinivasapuram Krishnaswamy (Retd) was among the key players at Air HQ during the initial purchase. He however was not the Air Chief back then. I believe he was an Air Vice Marshal or Air Marshal at that time.

1) The IAF required a deep penetration, heavy payload carrying fighter and the Su-30 fit the bill. The Su-30 is kinda like the F-15E Strike Eagle, albeit modified to Indian requirements. This purchase was mainly directed against China. Back in the 1990s, India did not have BrahMos, Nirbhay and other such platforms and you needed the Su-30 to strike deep inside enemy territory with a sizeable payload.

2) Back in the 1990s, defence purchases were not scrutinized as they are now in a 24-hour news cycle media. Going with a single vendor was not considered as hara-kiri, as it is now. The 1990s also had India deep in the tentacles of the Russian MIC. Buying large quantities of Russian equipment - without any competition - was the norm.

3) The nearly 300 Su-30s you are referring to are multiple contracts coming in sequence from the original contract in 1996. Once the initial contract was signed, ordering additional birds was not considered faux pas in the hallowed halls of the MoD. If only those walls could talk!!!

4) The Tehelka Scam changed all that. Then Defence Minister George Fernandes got cold feet on the 126 Mirage 2000 purchase. He did not want to give the perception of yet another scandal. So he made it a multi-vendor situation.

5) Once that happened, everything went up in the air. You had the Americans, the Swedes, the Russians, the French and the Euro Consortium all offering their wares. To make matters worse, the MoD Bureaucracy created pages upon pages of archaic rules and regulations to conclude a deal. While those rules and regulations work great in theory, they never work in practice. It only hamstrings the service that is acquiring the platform, in this case the Indian Air Force. It looks good from a governance standpoint, but it is a disaster from the armed forces' standpoint.

6) Now with the so-called Rafale Scam, the government has to go through the entire process again of RFI (where we are now) ---> RFP ----> Tech Evaluations ---> Technical Downselect ----> RFQ ---> Contract Award. This is going to take years and will continue past the 2024 General Elections. And squadron strength will continue to decline in this time period. But nobody cares. Life is cheap in India.

What needs to be done is to cancel the RFI all together. State that the urgent need requires acquiring platforms presently in service (Su-30MKI or MiG-29 or Mirage 2000). My money is on additional Su-30MKIs....another 2 - 3 squadrons more. Once the Rafale arrives in Sept 2019, the same will apply to the Rafale as well. Get another 2 - 3 squadrons more of the Rafale. And buy them off the shelf and get offsets via components. Please no screwdrivergiri. Focus on a new MMRCA contest, but on a fifth generation platform to assist in the development of AMCA if required. Anything else is a waste of time.

P.S. Tejas is the KEY. India cannot have 110 MMRCAs and no Tejas. The Tejas is India's future fighter. Another 2 - 3 squadrons more of the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A on top of the 40 Mk1s and 83 Mk1As. The squadron shortage - even in this late, penultimate stage - is resolve-able. But it requires taking bold government decision.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby LakshmanPST » 26 Apr 2019 18:40

^^^ Thanks for the reply...
-
I hope govt. scraps MMRCA 2.0 and goes for G2G deal of 3 squadrons of Rafales, citing some reason like 'increased tensions with Pak'... I guess that's the only way out of this...
Personally, I'd want to see 150 Rafales (36+114) instead of additional Su30 MKIs...
-
Yes, Tejas is critical for IAF in coming days...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Apr 2019 18:50

150 Rafales will blow a hole in our capex. Better solution will be order 36 more Rafale, 21 more Mig 29 UPG, 18 Su 30 is being processed and ramp up LCA Tejas MK1 and 1A orders to production of 32 aircraft per year till MK 2 is ready for production

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 26 Apr 2019 20:13

Lakshman Saar, like Aditya_V said....150 Rafales (or any foreign fighter) will blow a hole in our CAPEX. Even 110 MMRCA will blow a hole in our CAPEX. Getting 2 - 3 additional squadrons of Rafale would be good. Add another two squadrons of the Su-30MKI and another 3 squadrons of the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A.

Tejas is the key though. Another 3 squadrons of the Mk1/Mk1A will bring the production run up to 163 aircraft. Add another 201 Tejas Mk2 for the IAF and 60 N-Tejas Mk2 for the Navy and you are looking at a total production run of 424 aircraft. Which is spectacular for the Tejas program.

Shiny foreign fighters are not the only thing that the IAF needs. A small list;

- In flight refuelling tankers
- Netra AEW and Phalcon AWACS
- Super Sukhoi upgrade with Izdeliye 30 engines :twisted:
- Improving serviceability of aircraft presently in service
- Completing the Mirage 2000 and Jaguar Darin III upgrades
- Akash Mk2 SAM, QRSAM for airbase protection
- Airfield Infrastructure Modernization
- Brahmos-A, SAAW + other PGMs
- Astra Mk1, Astra Mk2, SFDR
- etc, etc, etc, etc, etc....

Where is the money for 110 MMRCA? There are far more urgent and pressing requirements (like the above). Address these as well.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 26 Apr 2019 20:43

And if you look at the list above (apart from a couple items), most equipment/platforms are of Indian origin and will feature Indian components. What is the point of Make in India? Here is a good starting point. Invest in local maal and not phoren maal. Why invest in another country's MIC, when we can invest in our own MIC?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby rajsunder » 27 Apr 2019 06:43

Rakesh wrote:Lakshman, there are many reasons for the initial contract of Su-30s signed in 1996....

I remember reading that there were some noises made about single vendor issue but the major political parties came together and calmed the situation. I remember reading about vajpayee and devagowda names in that article.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby LakshmanPST » 27 Apr 2019 09:16

That 150 Rafales thing was my personal wish... I know it needs lot of money...
As I already said, they should buy 3 squadrons of Rafales via G2G deal citing some reason and be done with it...
-
Anyways, 2 years back I wondered why they floated new RFI for Single engine jets when we have Tejas...
Thinking about it, my wild guess is they floated the MMRCA 2.0 tender as a backup plan, just in case MWF is not ready on time... Since, they got only 2 responses for single engine jets (and both of them not liked by IAF), they removed the Single Engine criteria...
If MWF meets the timelines, they'll probably cancel MMRCA 2.0 altogether and go for 2-3 Rafale squadrons...
So, all depends on MWF being ready on time, which I hope it will...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Sumair » 27 Apr 2019 17:48

Then Defense Minister Mulayum SIngh Yadav personally went to Russia to sign the deal. A lot of things happened behind the scenes.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby LakshmanPST » 29 Apr 2019 00:39

Sorry for diverting the topic to Su30 MKI... But I'm posting this here to draw parallel with MMRCA...
-
Got some info in this Wiki article... (Wondering how I missed this article before...)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI
There were totally 4 contracts for Su30MKIs...
1) 1st deal signed in Nov 1996 for 50 jets in Fly-Away condition... (Signed after 2 years of evaluation and negotiations... Mulayam Singh Yadav was Defence Minister... Wonder what discussions went behind the scenes...)
2) 2nd deal signed in Dec 2000 for 140 jets to be licence produced in Nashik... George Fernandes was RM...
3) 3rd deal signed in 2007 for 40 additional jets...
4) 4th deal signed in Dec 2012 for 42 additional jets... Taking the total to 272...
-
This info created new questions in my mind...
1) In 2000, India had around 20-30 Flankers delivered...? (+20 on order)... And India signed deal for 140 additional jets...
2) At the same time we had 40 M2ks... RFI for MMRCA 1.0 was issued in 2001...
If they took the decision to order 140 Su30s which were barely inducted, what prevented them to go for a Multi-Vendor competition instead of ordering 126 M2ks straight away, which were inducted 15 years back, fully operational and combat proven just 2 years back in Kargil...?
So, I don't think Coffin scam or Tehalka scam changed the stand of govt.... There has to be some other reason for this decision...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rishi_Tri » 29 Apr 2019 05:39

OT but still - This forum has been fantastic learning medium for me and agree with almost everything that knowledgeable gurus say about respective subjects but for budgets.

India is almost a $ 3 Trillion economy and with black money considered perhaps $ 3.5 - 4.0 Trillion. With such size, the amount of capital outlays we talk about are not substantial.

By GOIs own numbers, projects worth Rs 275,000 crores ($42 Billion, equivalent to 1.4% of GDP) have been sanctioned - only in past four years. Where did this money come from? I am sure by prioritization and well documented plugging of leaks. And I am not even talking about classified programs, which come about in public domains post facto. (Nuclear Submarines, ASAT, Military Satellites, Hypersonic Missiles and what not).

Now a days we announce large public expenditure schemes running into $ Billions annually (Ayushman Bharat, Ujala etc) with due consideration but without breaking into sweat.

To put things into further perspective, Indian IT / ITES industry is $180 Billion in 2018-19. Our (on paper) military expenditure fraction of that too.

If NDA gets handy majority, it should go ahead and order Rafales for Airforce and Navy. At $200 MN for 100, it shall come to $20 Billion. Over say 10 year acquisition period, it shall represent barely noticeable numbers. And it shall kill the Single Engine / Double Engine / MMRCA for ever. Path of least resistance to that shall be through Navy Rafale.

If MMRCA circus goes on forever, even better as it shall mean Tejas comes in 100s. So glad that the last MMRCA circus tied itself up in knots and provided Tejas the opportunity to prove itself. Of course, I don't want single dollar to be spent on foreign purchases but if it has to be done, more than enough available.

Today, budgets are not problem. I would say other way around - we are not able to decide quick enough where to spend!

In my considered opinion, this red herring about budgets has been deliberately put forth by LOOTyens media at behest of questionable masters to hobble India (and siphon money) from going full steam ahead on becoming very credible military power that it can very well do. Nobody wants another nation to emerge as strong military power. Do they?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 01 May 2019 01:37

@Lakshman...will reply to your post soon.

Here is an apt tweet from Saurav Jha which relates to this discussion. No prizes for what the "40" represents :)

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1122876525643046912 --->

'We support indigenization.'

'We have placed major orders.'

'How many exactly?'

'Big Number. Fo...'

'Four hundred?'

'ty.'

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 01 May 2019 02:26

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1121637203493281794 ---> Any political leader who wishes to leave a real legacy must shove indigenization down India's throat. Mere lip service or some license production will not do. At the very least, build Tejas variants in the hundreds and set up lines in the private sector besides HAL.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1121647249358905344 ---> There many indigenously developed systems that have already been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council.They are either awaiting orders or have been ordered in small self-defeating doses. Serious production of these systems will do more for jobs and growth than license production.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1121638617636433921 ---> License production is the ultimate 'Fake in India'.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1121634260983566338 ---> In indigenous weapons development, as in many other industries, the process is thus: bad - alright - good - better. But this process cannot happen without systems being pushed into serious production and genuine 'user' i.e. military involvement from the very beginning.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1121634953437966336 ---> Many improvements happen only through the production cycle.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1121633593539751936 ---> Tell me, if import-driven defence preparedness was such a great idea, do you think the major powers of the world would have expended so much treasure and blood to become self-reliant in military-industrial capabilities? Or is it that some Indians 'know better'?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1121632357885177856 ----> The game is simple. The moment one of your indigenous systems starts to show promise, foreign OEMs start offering 'mature' equivalents. The 'phorces need this' chorus begins & brochuritis brims over. The whole idea is to sequester your limited resources & screw you later.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1121630602069860352 ----> The very same Chinese military whose growth is used to justify imports realized a long-time ago that it couldn't depend on foreign weapons. Yes, it 'grabbed' tech but it also pushed indigenous adaptations into serial production, without which you never improve.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1121629298119417857 ----> I am sorry to say but those who think that India can enhance its security via continued reliance on foreign imports are living in a fool's paradise at best. Import of some Übermensch weapons system may seem good on paper, but within a few years the true cost becomes apparent.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 01 May 2019 03:14

LakshmanPST wrote:1) In 2000, India had around 20-30 Flankers delivered...? (+20 on order)... And India signed deal for 140 additional jets...
2) At the same time we had 40 M2ks... RFI for MMRCA 1.0 was issued in 2001...
If they took the decision to order 140 Su30s which were barely inducted, what prevented them to go for a Multi-Vendor competition instead of ordering 126 M2ks straight away, which were inducted 15 years back, fully operational and combat proven just 2 years back in Kargil...?
So, I don't think Coffin scam or Tehalka scam changed the stand of govt.... There has to be some other reason for this decision...

The Su-30MKI is not in the same class as the Mirage 2000. Each aircraft serves a specific purpose.

The former flies longer (on internal fuel) and carries a heavier payload. Two big plus points for any fighter. To quote Saab, "A fighter is only effective when she is in the air." Therefore, a fighter on the ground is like a paperweight and a target for the enemy (in war). Now it is a whole other thing that the Rambha serviceability (until recently) turned out to be quite a disappointment. That is Russian maal for you!

And the IAF cannot have only Su-30MKIs in the fleet. The OPEX will be sky high (and un-affordable) with an all Rambha fleet. And you do not send a Rambha to do what the MiG-21 does and vice versa. The Mirage 2000 is an excellent swing-role fighter (air defence, precision strike) that has served the IAF well since the mid-80s. Her serviceability was far better than the Russian birds and the IAF saw the value in getting more of the same type to replace the aging MiGs. When the initial requirement was put out by the IAF in 2001, the service had just gone through in the previous decade of the most gut-wrenching episode of up keeping the largely Russian origin combat fleet.

Back in 2001, the IAF had a large MiG-21 fleet, a sizeable MiG-23 fleet, a small MiG-25 recon fleet, a sizeable MiG-27 fleet and a decent MiG-29 fleet. The Rambha was just getting her feet wet in the IAF and the full blown Su-30MKI version was yet to enter service. She officially entered service only on 27 September 2002. Keeping all the MiG variants in the air was no small task and a lot of frustration existed with the poor quality of Russian spares. Remember the entire MiG-2X fleet was acquired from the erstwhile Soviet Union starting from the 60s and ended in the 80s. In the early 1990s, the Soviet Union dissolved and the IAF was left scourging for parts and spares from various ex-Soviet bloc nations. That was not a happy decade for the IAF.

The Mirage 2000 did not have this Achilles heel and the IAF thought it would be best to induct a fighter that many in the IAF was very impressed with. Many in the first batch of Mirage 2000 pilots (from the mid-80s) were in senior level positions in the IAF by 2001. You had Padamjit Singh Ahluwalia, Anil Chopra, Ajit Bhavnani, etc. So the human factor was also there. If only George Fernandes had not gotten cold feet over the Tehelka Scam and stood his ground, the IAF would have retired all her MiG-21s by now and flying the Mirage 2000-5! But such is life! And Lakshman, it was the Tehelka Scam onlee....

What the IAF-PAF dogfight reveals
https://www.hindustantimes.com/columns/ ... tkZRN.html

This serial crime dates back to the Vajpayee government. In 2001, IAF projected the need of a new fighter to replace the MiGs. Its choice was more Mirage-2000s. Dassault was willing to shift its production line to India, the IAF knew the plane and loved it. By this time, the IAF would have had 6-8 more squadrons of the upgraded, Made-in-India Mirages with new missiles. The Rafale would probably not even be needed so desperately. PAF wouldn’t have dared to carry out the 27 February raid, and if it did, it would have been mauled. But then, George Fernandes, smarting under Coffingate and Tehelka, refused to go with a “single-vendor” deal. The full process for a new acquisition was launched.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 01 May 2019 03:39

Rakesh wrote:What the IAF-PAF dogfight reveals
https://www.hindustantimes.com/columns/ ... tkZRN.html

This serial crime dates back to the Vajpayee government. In 2001, IAF projected the need of a new fighter to replace the MiGs. Its choice was more Mirage-2000s. Dassault was willing to shift its production line to India, the IAF knew the plane and loved it. By this time, the IAF would have had 6-8 more squadrons of the upgraded, Made-in-India Mirages with new missiles. The Rafale would probably not even be needed so desperately. PAF wouldn’t have dared to carry out the 27 February raid, and if it did, it would have been mauled. But then, George Fernandes, smarting under Coffingate and Tehelka, refused to go with a “single-vendor” deal. The full process for a new acquisition was launched.

I promise you had George Fernandes gone ahead with a single vendor M2k deal back then, this same HT and other sold out media would have run stories of a Mirage scam. I blame the NDA-1 govt. for not doing this too but our msm has no credibility to say the same considering all the sh1t they peddled about the Rafale "scam".

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 01 May 2019 03:41

Fully agree. Perhaps (in a perfect world) the deal would have still gone through and the MiG-21s would have all been retired by now.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby LakshmanPST » 01 May 2019 06:16

@Rakesh...
I guess you're right...
Checked some dates:-
1) The order for 140 Su30s was placed in 2000...
2) First tapes of Tehelka scam were released in March 2001...
3) IAF gave the requirement for M2ks in 2000 only... But Tehelka tapes came out during the exact time when govt. was supposed to take a decision...
4) RFI for MMRCA 1.0 came out in 2001... (Infact in 2001, George Fernandes was removed as RM... From March to October 2001, it was Jaswant Singh... I don't think GF would have made a difference in final decision since it was taken by NDA govt.... But just saying...)
-
So, Tehelka scam was a major reason for this decision...
-
Also as per this news article---> http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 48627.html , IAF specifically requested Defence Ministry to buy 50 M2ks in 2003... But Defence Ministry in 2004 (UPA) rejected the request...
----
It is sad that we are still discussing the same Tender even after 19 years...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby khan » 01 May 2019 07:19

Where would Tejas be if there were a Mirage 2000 factory in India?

IMO, this lack of a Mirage 2000 factory is a blessing in disguise for India.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 03 May 2019 02:55

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1124023063685758976 ---> If the military thinks even authorized levels are sub-optimal, then they should deepen their embrace of indigenization and not hanker for emergency imports. There is no way the IAF is going to go beyond 42 squadrons (or even reach it) without the Tejas MK-2 Medium Weight Fighter.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1116034842599120896 ----> The argument that defence imports are a diplomatic tool is as self-serving as it gets. Au contraire, India will never have a fully independent foreign policy as long as it continues to import arms (& influence) on the scale at which it does today.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 03 May 2019 02:59

Misleading Title ---> Facility will *ONLY* come if Boeing wins the contract.

Big boost to Make in India! Boeing to set up a new facility for F/A 18 Super Hornet production in India
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... a/1566055/

The infrared search and track system (IRST), already in development as part of the earlier Block II upgrade, to give the advanced fourth generation aircraft an additional means to detect hostile low-observable aircraft at long distances. New Distributed Targeting Processor-Networked (DTP-N) and Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT) data link. A single Block III Super Hornet will be able to passively scan with the IRST, spot targets, and present the pilot with a rough bearing overlaid on the aircraft’s radar screen. To further enhance this flexibility, along with DTP-N and TTNT systems, the Block III aircraft will also have an updated satellite communications system, another hold-over from the Block II programme. Information from the aircraft’s own sensors and mission systems, as well as the data it receives from other sources, to feed into different displays on a single 10-inch by 19-inch flat panel touch screen that replaces the existing multi-function displays. The completely redesigned cockpit architecture, known as the Advanced Cockpit System, will also include additional backup displays and manual buttons in case this single screen fails in part or in full. Dual seat F/A-18Fs can have this practicality in each the front and rear cockpits.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 03 May 2019 05:14

For me personally, the top choice is the Rafale. Makes too much sense in terms of commonality with the 36 ordered, plus the capability of the jet itself and the weapons it brings. Add the naval order for 57 and the 114 + 57 +36 gives us a total of 207 Rafales.

But if not the Rafale, then it should be the Super Hornet, if and only if, extensive ToT is possible. Capability wise, it is easily a generation above anything the PAF has or is likely to have anytime soon. And I would really hope that the IAF include at least 18 Growlers as part of the mix.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby khan » 03 May 2019 07:19

Let us hope all MRCA contenders fail & someone tells IAF they only choice they have is MCA.

I guarantee you, MCA will be inducted in 10 years.

This is the way to do it, the Chinese made do with 5th rate substandard BS for 30 years while their local industry ground it out. Now India needs to do the same.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 06 May 2019 23:38

Just an opinion piece, but still worth a read. I am not following the General Elections, but I have been advised that the BJP will likely win again. If that happens, the scenario below will likely pan out.

As I mentioned earlier, if an additional 36 are indeed ordered, a future fighter aircraft purchase will be a 5th generation platform. The Govt will cancel the MMRCA deal and go in for another G2G deal. I see the Fancy Cornish Hen (F-35) coming, despite the S-400 purchase. And that too for that IAF and the IN. But I will defer to brar_w for his input on that. Unless the IAF wants to wait for the Su-57 to complete development.

Lockheed Martin's F-21 (Or Super F-16) Won't Be Joining India's Air Force
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... orce-55362

According to journalist Angad Singh, the likely winner is French company Dassault’s Rafale twin-engine fighter.

Singh explains his rationale in the May 2019 issue of Combat Aircraft magazine. India previously ordered 36 Rafales as part of an earlier fighter tender. “With 36 aircraft already on order and the infrastructure in place for an additional 36, a case could certainly be made that training, basing and sustainment costs for additional aircraft would not be an impossible burden.”

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 06 May 2019 23:58

"I am not following the General Elections, but I have been advised that the BJP will likely win again. If that happens, the scenario below will likely pan out."

Aap ke muh main ghee shakkar aur IAF ke base main aur Rafale. :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 07 May 2019 00:21

Kartik wrote:For me personally, the top choice is the Rafale. Makes too much sense in terms of commonality with the 36 ordered, plus the capability of the jet itself and the weapons it brings. Add the naval order for 57 and the 114 + 57 +36 gives us a total of 207 Rafales.

But if not the Rafale, then it should be the Super Hornet, if and only if, extensive ToT is possible. Capability wise, it is easily a generation above anything the PAF has or is likely to have anytime soon. And I would really hope that the IAF include at least 18 Growlers as part of the mix.


Forget about TOT beyond screwdriver level for anything American. The South Koreans opened up their fancy American nav-FLIR sensors to peek inside and the Americans found out via spies, checked the seals and also suspended arms cooperation for a long while. :lol: :lol:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 07 May 2019 00:29

Lockheed Martin Inaugurates New F-16 Production Facility
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... n-facility

Image

During a ribbon-cutting ceremony on April 23, Lockheed Martin formally opened its new F-16 production line in a newly refurbished hangar at Greenville, South Carolina. The event was attended by company officials and local political representatives. The manufacture of new F-16s is expected to start later this year, according to the company.

Lockheed Martin moved the tooling and equipment to the new site primarily to create more room at the Fort Worth, Texas facility, which was the source for the vast majority of the 4,588 F-16s that have been completed to date. With the departure of the F-16 line to Greenville, Fort Worth is now given over entirely to F-35 production. Historically, F-16 assembly has also been undertaken in Belgium (SABCA, 222 aircraft), the Netherlands (Fokker, 300), Turkey (Turkish Aerospace, 304), and South Korea (Samsung Aerospace, 128).

Greenville’s first order to be fulfilled is the 16-aircraft batch of F-16V Block 70 aircraft for Bahrain, ordered in June 2018 and due for delivery from 2020. Bahrain has also signed up to upgrade 20 existing F-16C/D Block 40 aircraft to the same standard, which includes APG-83 AESA radar. In November 2018 Slovakia signed the Letters of Acceptance covering the delivery of 14 F-16Vs by the end of 2023.

Meanwhile, the U.S. government continues to negotiate with Bulgaria over the supply of an expected total of eight F-16Vs. In late March, the U.S. State Department approved the sale of up to 25 new F-16 Block 72s for Morocco, along with the upgrade of 23 existing aircraft to F-16V Block 52+ configuration. The F-16V is being proposed for other fighter requirements around the world, notably in India, where a further upgraded version is being touted for local production as the “F-21.”

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 07 May 2019 00:47

Karan M wrote:Aap ke muh main ghee shakkar aur IAF ke base main aur Rafale. :mrgreen:

:lol:

I found the Combat Aircraft article, but requires a subscription. Has anyone seen this article? If so, please provide summary.

Indian fighter contest hots up
https://combataircraft.keypublishing.co ... t-hots-up/
29 March 2019

An executive leading the charge at a European airframer confirmed last year that his company would simply not bid in an open tender — expecting the MoD to evaluate the RFI responses (received in July 2018) and then open direct Government-to-Government negotiations to strike a deal.

Another representative from a competing firm said that he ‘hoped’ the search for India’s next fighter would not end up an open competition as it did the first time around.

Additional Rafales is the reason to malign the Rafale deal. The only way any of the other competitors have any chance of winning a contract is to give the illusion of corruption in the contract of 36 fighters. So cancel the first contract and go in for G2G deal for a new contract. Therefore AK Antony - upon following instructions from Madam - never wanted the original deal for 126 fighters to be finalized. He played one delay tactic after another. BJP winning in 2014 threw cold water on those plans. The Congress game is the *REAL* corruption. And a few on this forum were regurgitating the Congress doublespeak i.e. the Congress Party has done great service for the country by bringing up the Rafale contract.

The blue text is likely the Eurofighter consortium. The sheer braggadocio! :roll: Don't give these morons anything.

The red text is a classic American play. Neither Boeing nor Lockheed Martin want an open contest.


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