Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby fanne » 28 Feb 2018 21:12

I think the distribution should be 50% light, 30% medium and 10% heavy. The light part (supposedly low tech) should be 100% Indian, that gives us 500 planes - LCA I, LCA II, LCA III

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Vivek K » 28 Feb 2018 21:34

Couldn’t agree with you more fanne bhai!

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby srin » 28 Feb 2018 21:44

I think Mk1A is already almost there (with AESA and hopefully some weight shaved). The scope for Mk2 must be as light as possible - change the engine, increase intake size - and get it flying within a couple of years and finish the testing in around 2-3.

It is very important for us to have ADA focus on AMCA and MK2 will be a huge distraction.

So I get worried when I read about the half metre plug, canards and what not, and anything that has the potential to make the testing a long drawn effort. The problem with delays would be scope-creep - as more and more features pileup, we would looking at something at 5-7 years development timeline, and then they'd be expected to make it stealthy ....

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 28 Feb 2018 22:02

Scope creep is the enemy.
A bird in hand is worth 2 in the far off bush. (My rowdy friends would instead say breast & bra)

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby NRao » 28 Feb 2018 22:09

srin wrote:It is very important for us to have ADA focus on AMCA and MK2 will be a huge distraction.


Looks like they have two separate teams, one for the MK2 and another for the AMCA (which, if true, is really great).

Two quick observations:

* The AMCA effort is relocating to Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu (that per the EOI). The destination for delivery of parts, for the AMCA, is Coimbatore. And, looks like the AMCA team is standing up testing, etc facilities/efforts in Coimbatore
* While the MK2 effort is yet to start in earnest, the AMCA (based on the EOI) is a lot more mature. The AMCA team is actually ready to push out a variety of drawings, etc to have them build. I would not be surprised if the two (MK2 and the AMCA) pretty much arrive at the same time


So, the risk, IMHO, is funding. As in to keep one alive, then other is deprived. Not the team itself.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2018 22:12

deejay wrote:
ramana wrote:Kudos to Karnad for saying it like it is.


This is not how it is and you are mistaken. What guarantees that next DM won’t change this after 2yrs. What a joke.


Budget pressures mean Tejas is most affordable option.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2018 22:17

SaiK, How many PAF planes were shot down by Mig 21s?

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 01 Mar 2018 02:49

ramana wrote:SaiK, How many PAF planes were shot down by Mig 21s?

Sahib, kyoun sharminda kartay ho aap? :oops:

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 01 Mar 2018 03:38

srin wrote:I think Mk1A is already almost there (with AESA and hopefully some weight shaved). The scope for Mk2 must be as light as possible - change the engine, increase intake size - and get it flying within a couple of years and finish the testing in around 2-3.

It is very important for us to have ADA focus on AMCA and MK2 will be a huge distraction.

So I get worried when I read about the half metre plug, canards and what not, and anything that has the potential to make the testing a long drawn effort. The problem with delays would be scope-creep - as more and more features pileup, we would looking at something at 5-7 years development timeline, and then they'd be expected to make it stealthy ....


I don't agree with your points.

Tejas Mk2 must be targeted to meet what the IAF wants from its light/medium fighter, kind of like the Gripen E. That is how the IAF will have to be won over into supporting the program fully. And that is only fair, given that the SEF program has been shelved in favor of the Tejas Mk2. Without matching/exceeding whatever parameters of the ASQR that the Mk1 fell short of, they will not be happy.

Without adding a fuselage plug, you cannot fit in more fuel. Neither can you increase the fine-ness ratio and hence drag reduction will not be to the level desired.

The 0.5m plug is less IMO. They need a full 1m plug to further improve area ruling and fineness ratio, plus be able to accomodate extra fuel and maybe allocate avionics to a mission bay behind the cockpit, maybe the EW suite related electronics. OBOGS has to be fit and so does an EW suite, both internally. Without creating space internally neither can be done.


What you're proposing is what the Tejas Mk1A is- same OML, but changes to layout internally and some avionics changes. The 83 Tejas Mk1A order buys ADA and DRDO the time to work on the Mk2, roll out its prototypes, test it out and then try to bring it into production just as the 83 Mk1As are all delivered. That would be the ideal scenario. Still, not likely to see a prototype before 2020 and production ready

Big changes would come about if a brand new Kaveri-M88 hybrid is identified as the engine for the Tejas Mk2. Then we would have to concurrently develop, bench test and then flight test the Kaveri-M88 on a Tejas Mk1 prototype before fitting it into a Mk2 prototype and only then onto the Mk2 production variants.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 01 Mar 2018 03:47

NRao wrote:Looks like they have two separate teams, one for the MK2 and another for the AMCA (which, if true, is really great).

Two quick observations:

* The AMCA effort is relocating to Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu (that per the EOI). The destination for delivery of parts, for the AMCA, is Coimbatore. And, looks like the AMCA team is standing up testing, etc facilities/efforts in Coimbatore
* While the MK2 effort is yet to start in earnest, the AMCA (based on the EOI) is a lot more mature. The AMCA team is actually ready to push out a variety of drawings, etc to have them build. I would not be surprised if the two (MK2 and the AMCA) pretty much arrive at the same time


So, the risk, IMHO, is funding. As in to keep one alive, then other is deprived. Not the team itself.


They will obviously have 2 separate projects for 2 separate programs. Cross pollination, help from one team to the other and all that will happen, but generally it is 2 separate projects and separate personnel.

BTW, as of 2016 itself, ADA had reported in its annual report that the 'inboards' layout for the LCA AF Mk2 was nearly complete. Which tells me that as of now, they would have progressed even further. Either way, the Tejas Mk2 is not as far behind in design stage as you seem to think. Saurav Jha's article also confirmed that, and I think he wrote that after visiting or speaking to people in B'lore (which is how he must've surmised that HAL was likely to reach 12 Mk1 per year capacity this year itself). however, the close coupled canard configuration is a new thing which wasn't mentioned till 2016 at least. Whether or not to go with canards and if so, its design and location will have to be frozen for the final configuration to be frozen.

But yes, it is very likely that Tejas Mk2 and AMCA TD will rollout around the same time, give or take a few months. However, the AMCA will be a Technology Demonstrator, whereas the Mk2 will be a prototype. And a lot less items to test on the Mk2 since the Mk1 -> Mk1A progression would have established much of what goes into the Mk2. Modified FCS, new cockpit displays, fuel management system mods, modded braking system for higher Max landing weights, etc. would be just some of the areas that would need to be tested out. But for the AMCA, it is a whole new effort and will be much larger in scale.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 01 Mar 2018 04:05

ramana ji, 11 confirmed kills against Pakis (separate incidents). Again wiki.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 01 Mar 2018 04:14

Tejas is the SEF
Tejas is the MMRCA
Tejas is your aviation industry.

Mr Modi well done, if what i read is true then the disha you are showing to us is the right and the bold and the tough one.
Carry on Mr Prime Minister, Make India shine.

@Admiral
Just read your article from Page 1.
Big Hurrah

Buy the damned second hang Mig-29s from Malayasia and second hand Jags from France.
Fill the numbers up with anything till the Mk2 starts flying.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby ramana » 01 Mar 2018 04:28

SaiK wrote:ramana ji, 11 confirmed kills against Pakis (separate incidents). Again wiki.



Exactly. Out of how many in 1971!

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Mar 2018 04:34

^^khalsa ji why not make more LCA mk1 a till that time?

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby srai » 01 Mar 2018 06:40

ArjunPandit wrote:^^khalsa ji why not make more LCA mk1 a till that time?

The approach taken should to be open to various possibilities.
  1. Existing types -> shore up squadrons (new [Su-30MKI, Rafales] and second-hand [Mirage-2000 and MiG-29]).
  2. Tejas Mk.1 -> continue production until Mk1A ready; look for export of excess units
  3. Tejas Mk.1A -> switch production to this when ready; look for export of excess units
  4. Tejas Mk.2 -> switch production to this when ready

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 01 Mar 2018 07:03

ramana wrote:
SaiK wrote:ramana ji, 11 confirmed kills against Pakis (separate incidents). Again wiki.

Exactly. Out of how many in 1971!

..searching.. I got only google, and no documents.
few hits reveal:
When the war started on December 3, six squadrons of MiG-21FLs were part of the IAF's order-of battle, participating in operations both in the eastern and western sectors. By the time hostilities ended on December 16, the MiGs had downed four F-104 Starfighters, two F-6s, an F-86 Sabre and a C-130 Hercules of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).


https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2013/12/19/d ... nder_31775.

But, also note the whole paki army went kneel down!

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby shiv » 01 Mar 2018 09:36

suryag wrote:i feel like going to HAL-Tejas gate and bursting a 10000 waala and then distribute sweets there and put a flex poster nearby. Heck when people can do this for 2-bit councillor birthday why not for such a momentous event. "buland bharat ki buland tasveer hamara tejas hamara tejas"

Flex posters are banned.. just saying

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 01 Mar 2018 09:51

It would thus be best to go for a government-to-government deal to get the next set of fighters.................
.................
Moreover, the cost of operating a single-engine fighter is lesser than that of a double-engine fighter. An early decision on selection would have allowed the IAF to build up its fighter strength, along with the induction of HAL-built indigenous Tejas fighter aircraft.
...The government was also looking to kickstart a defence manufacturing ecosystem in the country by building the single-engine fighter fully in India.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... a-5082304/


Thank you Lord!

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Mar 2018 11:01

srin wrote:I think Mk1A is already almost there (with AESA and hopefully some weight shaved). The scope for Mk2 must be as light as possible - change the engine, increase intake size - and get it flying within a couple of years and finish the testing in around 2-3.

It is very important for us to have ADA focus on AMCA and MK2 will be a huge distraction.

So I get worried when I read about the half metre plug, canards and what not, and anything that has the potential to make the testing a long drawn effort. The problem with delays would be scope-creep - as more and more features pileup, we would looking at something at 5-7 years development timeline, and then they'd be expected to make it stealthy ....


I feel similarly but perhaps it won't be such an issue. Please, please don't let this be another science project..

What I really would like to see is the current order for 83mk1a being converted to that of mk1 at foc std delivered by 2025. In the meantime another order of 126 mk1a should be placed delivered by 2030, and finally an order of mk2 for 126+ around 2030.

Keep on developing this bird iteratively. I fear that the present timelines for mk1a and esp, mk2 are ridiculously optimistic for such dramatic changes.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby srai » 01 Mar 2018 11:10

+1

Small orders combined with big change requests hamper overall efforts.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby PratikDas » 01 Mar 2018 11:13

Does anyone else feel the celebrations are premature until we have more sources confirming the Mk2 path? It's not dhoti shivering. Mk2 is the right path. It's just that I have little faith in Indian media.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 01 Mar 2018 14:40

srai wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:^^khalsa ji why not make more LCA mk1 a till that time?

The approach taken should to be open to various possibilities.
  1. Existing types -> shore up squadrons (new [Su-30MKI, Rafales] and second-hand [Mirage-2000 and MiG-29]).
  2. Tejas Mk.1 -> continue production until Mk1A ready; look for export of excess units
  3. Tejas Mk.1A -> switch production to this when ready; look for export of excess units
  4. Tejas Mk.2 -> switch production to this when ready


Dear Arjun
no ji for me please.

no I am completely with you sir but Mk1 as we know at FOC will still be limited and not able to provide the strike coverage that IAF seeks from that of a single engined fighter. (details are out of scope of this thread).

The way forward decided by the HAL | IAF | MoD is
LCA Mk1 (IOC to FOC) (40 + LSP series with ASTE)
LCA Mk1 (FOC to Mk1A (80 to 90)
LCA Mk2 (64 aircraft = 4 new squadrons and than backfilling the Mk1 as they approach end of life or upgrades).

LCA Mk1 and Mk1A are just the beginnings. The ultimate aim in the LCA category is Mk2.
That shall be the final Tejas.

What F2 is to the F-16 [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2 ]
Tejas Mk2 will be to the Mk1 and Mk1A

Don't forget the parallel drive in the Medium category with AMCA and Heavy with FGFA.


@srai
thanks for the input. in regards to what you said.
srai wrote:
  1. Existing types -> shore up squadrons (new [Su-30MKI, Rafales] and second-hand [Mirage-2000 and MiG-29]).
  2. Tejas Mk.1 -> continue production until Mk1A ready; look for export of excess units
  3. Tejas Mk.1A -> switch production to this when ready; look for export of excess units
  4. Tejas Mk.2 -> switch production to this when ready


I agree and wholeheartedly support item #1.
I believe there is IAF driven effort underway and it should be encouraged.
PAF did the same decades ago , scrapping all the Mirage III they could get to build a defendable position against IAF till the JF17 came into effect.
We need those Malayasian Mig29s, Qatari Mirage 2000 and all the rotting Jags you can find.

Item 2 and 3. I am going to say no saar. We need to plug our numbers quickly and douse the import wali fires that start up everytime someone from GM or Gripen visits India. Once Mk2 is on. then yes begin export in parallel because by then the import lobby will be super dead or dying.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby srai » 01 Mar 2018 16:59

^^^
Production needs to be continuous. That is what my post was about.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby ManuJ » 02 Mar 2018 00:05

From the DRDO chief - IAF has already committed to over 300 LCAs:

Speaking of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Christopher said HAL had already got an order to manufacture 123 LCAs. “In addition to that, the air force has given in writing another 201 aircraft, which is the next version, that we call as Mark-II. We are working on it and by 2022 it will be flying,” he said.


http://indianexpress.com/article/india/indias-awacs-is-low-cost-better-than-pakistans-says-drdo-chief-5083268/

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Mar 2018 00:14

That is beautiful. So they signed a Letter of Intent for the Tejas Mk 2.

How many planes do they need in the MRCA contest? 100? :lol:

Let the Mk1A take over the role of the MiG-21 (light fighter) and let the Mk2 be India's Multi-Role Combat Aircraft.

Manu Saar, you have won post-of-the-year award. And today is only March 01st :) Very good find!

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Mar 2018 00:27

Ramana-ji: You are correct. It is perhaps time to close MRCA dhaaga. Did you have a premonition or what? 8)

Before doing so, let me have a last word before I close it. Please let me know.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby ramana » 02 Mar 2018 01:09

So maybe 2 more months to.get details.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Mar 2018 01:22

For sure. Thanks Ramana-ji.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Cybaru » 02 Mar 2018 01:53

WHoooooa! That's pretty good news! Amazing. 324 planes in total (123 + 201) not counting TD's & PVs.

End of the imports as we know it! (Sung to the tune of End of the world - R.E.M)

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 02 Mar 2018 01:56

srai wrote:^^^
Production needs to be continuous. That is what my post was about.

aye sir. Aligned with you.
:-)

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 02 Mar 2018 02:00

200 Mk2.... YESSSSSSSSS

Admiral ... can you rename the MRCA dhaga to "200 Mk2" Dhaga please
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Let the laughter be heard in the import lobbies across Delhi, Italy, Sweden, Amreeka, Moscow

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby PratikDas » 02 Mar 2018 02:08

Rakesh wrote:That is beautiful. So they signed a Letter of Intent for the Tejas Mk 2.

How many planes do they need in the MRCA contest? 100? :lol:

Let the Mk1A take over the role of the MiG-21 (light fighter) and let the Mk2 be India's Multi-Role Combat Aircraft.

Manu Saar, you have won post-of-the-year award. And today is only March 01st :) Very good find!


I second that. This is so wonderful. Kudos to the hard working teams who earned this achievement for the nation. My pranams to you.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 02 Mar 2018 02:15

ManuJ wrote:From the DRDO chief - IAF has already committed to over 300 LCAs:

Speaking of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Christopher said HAL had already got an order to manufacture 123 LCAs. “In addition to that, the air force has given in writing another 201 aircraft, which is the next version, that we call as Mark-II. We are working on it and by 2022 it will be flying,” he said.


http://indianexpress.com/article/india/indias-awacs-is-low-cost-better-than-pakistans-says-drdo-chief-5083268/



:eek: :eek:

Fingers crossed that the person writing this article didn't goof up or that the DRDO Chief hasn't jumped the gun. IAF has given in writing that it wants 201 Tejas Mk2s, sounds soo frickin' unbelievable!

If true, it is a stunning turnaround in fortunes.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby chola » 02 Mar 2018 02:16

ManuJ wrote:From the DRDO chief - IAF has already committed to over 300 LCAs:

Speaking of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Christopher said HAL had already got an order to manufacture 123 LCAs. “In addition to that, the air force has given in writing another 201 aircraft, which is the next version, that we call as Mark-II. We are working on it and by 2022 it will be flying,” he said.


http://indianexpress.com/article/india/indias-awacs-is-low-cost-better-than-pakistans-says-drdo-chief-5083268/



This is true? 324 Tejas! Don’t have me jumping for joy like an idiot if this is just speculation.

This Christopher fellow scares me. He also talked about giving the new AWACS to a “nearby” nation. Isn’t that PM cabinet level decision? I mean that is international diplomacy. Can’t be something for DRDO to know, even the chief.

He’s overly talkative. But I hope he is right!
Last edited by chola on 02 Mar 2018 02:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby srai » 02 Mar 2018 02:16

ManuJ wrote:From the DRDO chief - IAF has already committed to over 300 LCAs:

Speaking of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Christopher said HAL had already got an order to manufacture 123 LCAs. “In addition to that, the air force has given in writing another 201 aircraft, which is the next version, that we call as Mark-II. We are working on it and by 2022 it will be flying,” he said.


http://indianexpress.com/article/india/indias-awacs-is-low-cost-better-than-pakistans-says-drdo-chief-5083268/

Game changer! India, it seems, has finally overcome the import lobby. That would be enough orders to take LCA production to the 2030s when AMCA will be ready. Here comes the Indian Aerospace.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 02 Mar 2018 02:19

Khalsa wrote:200 Mk2.... YESSSSSSSSS

Admiral ... can you rename the MRCA dhaga to "200 Mk2" Dhaga please
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Let the laughter be heard in the import lobbies across Delhi, Italy, Sweden, Amreeka, Moscow


Not 200, Khalsa saab, 201..as we would say in Gujarat, when someone would give a gift of Rs 201 and not Rs 200 at a wedding.. "bas so ek no chandlo" (do sau ek ka chandla). :D

Fingers crossed, hope this news is true..can't imagine why this news was revealed at some quaint Gujarat University function and not some other DRDO event.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Mar 2018 02:24

Kartik wrote:Fingers crossed that the person writing this article didn't goof up or that the DRDO Chief hasn't jumped the gun. IAF has given in writing that it wants 201 Tejas Mk2s, sounds soo frickin' unbelievable!

If true, it is a stunning turnaround in fortunes.

At this stage in the game, the fact that the IAF gave DRDO - in writing - for the Tejas Mk2 is all that I need. 200 is icing on the cake, but you cannot have cake without icing :wink:

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Mar 2018 02:26

chola wrote:This is true? 324 Tejas! Don’t have me jumping for joy like an idiot if this is just speculation.

This Christopher fellow scares me. He also talked about giving the new AWACS to a “nearby” nation. Isn’t that PM cabinet level decision? I mean that is international diplomacy. Can’t be something for DRDO to know, even the chief.

He’s overly talkative. But I hope he is right!

The good Dr cannot say anything unless he has permission to do so from the PMO. The PMO does not want to ruffle the feathers - via the MRCA contest - so they get the DRDO Chief to say it. LM is still waiting for official confirmation on SEF contest being dead :lol:

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Mar 2018 02:28

PratikDas wrote:I second that. This is so wonderful. Kudos to the hard working teams who earned this achievement for the nation. My pranams to you.

+108 Pratik Saar! The teams - the scientists - are the true heroes. Tejas, AMCA, Dhruv, etc...these are only platforms. But when you kill the platform, you kill the scientist. Jai Vigyan!

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Mar 2018 02:30

Khalsa wrote:Let the laughter be heard in the import lobbies across Delhi, Italy, Sweden, Amreeka, Moscow

I am waiting for an official confirmation - I know it will be hard pressed to get - before I parade this in the face of BRF's import lobby :mrgreen:


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