CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 07 Jun 2018 06:52

Philip wrote:I have no problem with more Rafales if they are priced competitively.The RNs JSF F-35Bs, the most expensive variant, of which they're getting around 48+, cost just $0.5B more than our measly 36 Rafales! That too a 5th- Gen fighter including infrastructure and weaponry costs, the "full Monty".That's 50% more JSFs for almost the same price.

Philip, that is complete nonsense.

The cost for 36 Rafales came to US $9 billion.

1) The UK invested £1.08 billion in development funding for the Rafale. That is in early 1990 £s. If you calculate that in today's £s, it will be higher.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Combat_Aircraft

2) The intial cost of 48 F-35Bs will cost the British taxpayer £9.2 billion
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/2 ... arliament/

3) Software updates to the Block 4 standard for the F-35B are expected to cost the British taxpayer £345 million
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/2 ... t_uk_345m/

£1.08 billion + £9.2 billion + £345 million = £10.625 billion (or US $14.27 billion).

Where is US $14+ billion and where is US $9 billion? There is a difference of US $5+ billion! :lol:

Philip wrote:So until one sees the actual price of our Rafale deal Tranche 1, of which the GOI has refused to share details, the jury is out on the cost of Tranche 2. Let's see what the CAG has to say, it's report will be out shortly where we would get a proper picture of the contours of the deal.

Okay, let us see how different CAG's report is from this....

Image

I am awaiting the CAG report as well. In the meantime, please look at this...

Rafale fighter deal on CAG radar, GSTN too
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... p-5205788/

The figure of Rs 525 crore or approximately Euro 79 million per Rafale aircraft which Opposition parties were citing, government sources had said, was based on the manufacturer’s 2007 bid at the then exchange rate (I Euro = Rs 66.60). This, sources said, was the cost of a ‘bare’ Rafale, without weapons, avionics, radars, missiles and other specific customisations for the IAF.

“The IAF told us that because we were buying only 36 Rafale and not 126, they needed them to be more potent. Meteor missiles, 75% serviceability and some special requirements were insisted upon by the IAF. It even asked for two separate maintenance support flights for redundancy. These imposed additional costs which were not even thought of in 2011. They are two separate packages,” government sources had said.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby RoyG » 07 Jun 2018 07:14

Philip wrote:I have no problem with more Rafales if they are priced competitively.The RNs JSF F-35Bs, the most expensive variant, of which they're getting around 48+, cost just $0.5B more than our measly 36 Rafales! That too a 5th- Gen fighter including infrastructure and weaponry costs, the "full Monty".That's 50% more JSFs for almost the same price.

So until one sees the actual price of our Rafale deal tranche 1, of which the GOI has refused to share details, the jury is out on the cost of tranche 2.Let's see what the CAG has to say , it's report will be out shortly where we would get a proper picture of the contours of the deal.


Sounds to me like you're jealous that more competitors are entering the ring. We already have a sizeable Su force. Trust that the IAF is getting a good deal. The French are more reliable and offer better service for their products. There isn't much to worry about wrt this deal. The next lot of Rafales will be cheaper and we will have top class facilities within the country to service them.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Austin » 07 Jun 2018 10:05

Rakesh wrote:No need for dhoti shivering Cain-ji. Let me at the outset say this....they will not put *ANY* sanctions on India. To quote eklavya, it will be akin to shooting themselves in the foot.


They will but at the place and time of their choosing , They will play this game their way to their advantage , if the need arises they can arm twist France and Israel to sanction us and indeed they have done that wrt to 2 other countries [ China & Russia ]

We need to get out of this fallacy that America wont sanction us they dont give a **** about their own allies in EU countries or Tukey when their national interest as stake , india is still a turd world nation and with far less importance to them.

They can even sanction commercial project like Nord Stream-2 where Germany wishes to buy Russian Gas but US does not want them to do so because they want to sell gas to EU at 3x time the cost so sanction them , The same goes for JCPAO where US withdraws from Iran deal for their own petty political reason and want to sanction any other countries be that their only Allay EU if they keep to the deal.

As for the arms deal in pipeline once you sanction then you are at their mercy and not them at ours , we paid most of the money and once sanctioned we will have to scout for spares support else "our" weapons duly paid will be grounded, They hold all the High Card in this game we dont.

They know once Russian arms are fully stopped via CATSAA then the game is theirs , Only Russia remains beyond their reach so they are trying to cut the veins slowly , This is a long term game decades long this is how they control nations and influence their decision in US favour.

This is not just about our Sovereignty to buy Arms but also about Sovereignty to implement our own Foreign Policy ....but I am happy MOD made a strong rebuttal to their demands.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby chetak » 07 Jun 2018 10:45

Austin wrote:
Rakesh wrote:No need for dhoti shivering Cain-ji. Let me at the outset say this....they will not put *ANY* sanctions on India. To quote eklavya, it will be akin to shooting themselves in the foot.


They will but at the place and time of their choosing , They will play this game their way to their advantage , if the need arises they can arm twist France and Israel to sanction us and indeed they have done that wrt to 2 other countries [ China & Russia ]

We need to get out of this fallacy that America wont sanction us they dont give a **** about their own allies in EU countries or Tukey when their national interest as stake , india is still a turd world nation and with far less importance to them.

They can even sanction commercial project like Nord Stream-2 where Germany wishes to buy Russian Gas but US does not want them to do so because they want to sell gas to EU at 3x time the cost so sanction them , The same goes for JCPAO where US withdraws from Iran deal for their own petty political reason and want to sanction any other countries be that their only Allay EU if they keep to the deal.

As for the arms deal in pipeline once you sanction then you are at their mercy and not them at ours , we paid most of the money and once sanctioned we will have to scout for spares support else "our" weapons duly paid will be grounded, They hold all the High Card in this game we dont.

They know once Russian arms are fully stopped via CATSAA then the game is theirs , Only Russia remains beyond their reach so they are trying to cut the veins slowly , This is a long term game decades long this is how they control nations and influence their decision in US favour.

This is not just about our Sovereignty to buy Arms but also about Sovereignty to implement our own Foreign Policy ....but I am happy MOD made a strong rebuttal to their demands.


if the dispensation changes, would we be able to still withstand the pressure??

Seems like just not too long ago, we were headed in a certain brainless direction and we seem to have taken a decisive but unpalatable ( to certain quarters !!) change of tack as well as pace.

They do not want a powerful India to have an independent foreign policy, they need a contained, servile and docile India to be an unquestioning camp follower, a replacement, if you will, to the fast sinking UK, mired in a serious mess of its own making.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Jun 2018 06:19

Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: What about American engines on the LCA saar? This was probly an avoidable problem but alas they have made the choice. I sure hope the Frenchies come through.

No need for dhoti shivering Cain-ji. Let me at the outset say this....they will not put *ANY* sanctions on India. To quote eklavya, it will be akin to shooting themselves in the foot. Personally, I would *LOVE* for them to put sanctions. I say sanction everything - F404, F414, spares for the P-8I, C-17 strategic transport, C- 130 tactical transport, stop deliveries of the AH-64 Apache, CH-47 Chinook, stop negotiations on the MH-60R naval helicopter...you see where I am going with this? :)

And
Wah sirji wah your optimism is contagious, lekin Kya karey my dhoti has tendency to shiver every now and again. I'm really curious to see how Trump and Co find a loophole for India on this situation.


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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Austin » 08 Jun 2018 10:07

from Ajai write up , US wont transfer F-35 to India if it goes ahead with S-400
Defence ministry sources say New Delhi has rejected at least one draft, while also declaring that India has no obligation to respect CAATSA, which is an American law.

Separate from the CAATSA imbroglio is Washington’s concern over technology security. US officials say they will not allow the F-35 Lightning II – their latest, hugely expensive and secretive fighter aircraft – to operate alongside the S-400.

Given the IAF’s growing interest in the F-35, this concern could significantly impact any such plans.

Echoing technology security concerns, the US House Armed Services Committee chairman, Mac Thornberry, told Indian journalists that if India bought the S-400, inter-operability between the Indian and US militaries would be undermined.

Underlining US sensitivity over the S-400 – which China could well buy in the future – is Washington’s growing confrontation with Turkey, a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation ally that is pushing to buy the S-400. Turkey is an F-35 partner country, but US officials say it could well be denied that fighter if it bought the S-400.

The S-400 Triumf (NATO designation: SA-21 Growler) can detect an incoming ballistic missile (perhaps carrying a nuclear payload) from 600 kilometres (km) and shoot it down when it is still 230 km away, and 185 km above the earth. It can shoot down fighter aircraft at ranges out to 400 km.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Chinmay » 08 Jun 2018 10:47

The IAF has not been offered the F-35. The Air Chief made that quite clear, so all 'F-35 for IAF' discussions will remain pipe dreams.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby chetak » 08 Jun 2018 11:49

Austin wrote:
Rakesh wrote:No need for dhoti shivering Cain-ji. Let me at the outset say this....they will not put *ANY* sanctions on India. To quote eklavya, it will be akin to shooting themselves in the foot.


They will but at the place and time of their choosing , They will play this game their way to their advantage , if the need arises they can arm twist France and Israel to sanction us and indeed they have done that wrt to 2 other countries [ China & Russia ]

We need to get out of this fallacy that America wont sanction us they dont give a **** about their own allies in EU countries or Tukey when their national interest as stake , india is still a turd world nation and with far less importance to them.

They can even sanction commercial project like Nord Stream-2 where Germany wishes to buy Russian Gas but US does not want them to do so because they want to sell gas to EU at 3x time the cost so sanction them , The same goes for JCPAO where US withdraws from Iran deal for their own petty political reason and want to sanction any other countries be that their only Allay EU if they keep to the deal.

As for the arms deal in pipeline once you sanction then you are at their mercy and not them at ours , we paid most of the money and once sanctioned we will have to scout for spares support else "our" weapons duly paid will be grounded, They hold all the High Card in this game we dont.

They know once Russian arms are fully stopped via CATSAA then the game is theirs , Only Russia remains beyond their reach so they are trying to cut the veins slowly , This is a long term game decades long this is how they control nations and influence their decision in US favour.

This is not just about our Sovereignty to buy Arms but also about Sovereignty to implement our own Foreign Policy ....but I am happy MOD made a strong rebuttal to their demands.


Just wait for sometime, saar.

2019 may well bring about some unwanted and drastic changes in policy. Like MUTU, we may well become more CATSAA than uncle himself.

Your point is well taken though.

The amerkis have many sticks to beat us with and they will do it at a time and place of their choosing. Their deep state is neither forgiving nor forgetting. Their long and deep seated frustrations in the AFPAK region is driving them along some perilous paths and AFPAK is a subset of their ever increasing global headache.

Our supreme national interest should be the only thing guiding us. The rest is merely fluff.

Currently and temporarily we seem to be uncle's flavor of the month so they are keen to keep us in good humour.

What other months may well bring is best anticipated by directing our wandering attentions to the plight of the pakis.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby chetak » 08 Jun 2018 12:09

Chinmay wrote:The IAF has not been offered the F-35. The Air Chief made that quite clear, so all 'F-35 for IAF' discussions will remain pipe dreams.


If the numbers are right, they may well offer to sell us a "defanged" export version, along with, maybe, just maybe, gifting the pakis with a much more potent version to "fight terrorists".

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Philip » 08 Jun 2018 13:26

True! And equip these stealth birds with ALCMs so that they can strike terrorist targets who may be hiding in Indian military establishments a 1000+ km away!

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby eklavya » 08 Jun 2018 14:11

^^^^
No F-35 for PAF. Might as well gift the technology to the PLAAF in that case. IAF has not made a request for F-35. The Americans are being dumb wrt Russia. The long term threat to the West is not from Russia. It’s from China, who will work harder, save harder, fight dirtier, etc

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby souravB » 08 Jun 2018 14:46

Austin wrote:
They will but at the place and time of their choosing , They will play this game their way to their advantage , if the need arises they can arm twist France and Israel to sanction us and indeed they have done that wrt to 2 other countries [ China & Russia ]

We need to get out of this fallacy that America wont sanction us they dont give a **** about their own allies in EU countries or Tukey when their national interest as stake , india is still a turd world nation and with far less importance to them.

If I may present a different perspective, what I understand foreign policy is always a matter of give and take.
GOI needs to take into account if we "give CAATSA" to Murica what are we getting in return? are we getting closer to any of the following?
    NSG membership
    UNSC membership
in my opinion we should be working towards UNSC to get out of all ****shows like this one now and in future, get a comprehensive long term plan and stick to it.
just wanted to give my two cents on this great discussion. I am pretty less experienced than probably all of you guys here and mostly just listen but this point was bubbling in my mind for some time now.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby chetak » 08 Jun 2018 20:29

souravB wrote:
Austin wrote:
They will but at the place and time of their choosing , They will play this game their way to their advantage , if the need arises they can arm twist France and Israel to sanction us and indeed they have done that wrt to 2 other countries [ China & Russia ]

We need to get out of this fallacy that America wont sanction us they dont give a **** about their own allies in EU countries or Tukey when their national interest as stake , india is still a turd world nation and with far less importance to them.

If I may present a different perspective, what I understand foreign policy is always a matter of give and take.
GOI needs to take into account if we "give CAATSA" to Murica what are we getting in return? are we getting closer to any of the following?
    NSG membership
    UNSC membership
in my opinion we should be working towards UNSC to get out of all ****shows like this one now and in future, get a comprehensive long term plan and stick to it.
just wanted to give my two cents on this great discussion. I am pretty less experienced than probably all of you guys here and mostly just listen but this point was bubbling in my mind for some time now.


NSG is a pittance for us to lose russia.

UNSC membership will happen only with help from the russians. The others are arrayed against us.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby srin » 08 Jun 2018 21:01

For whatever reason, the IAF & Govt have agreed that S400s are important for our security. Which part of S400 we're interested in, whether it is for BMD or not - nothing authoritative or official is known. But I'll just take it at face value.

Any so-called ally or partner who wishes us to be secure, needs to understand it (even if they don't like it). Either they "disagree and commit" or offer their alternative at better terms.

I can't accept that our national security is a collateral damage of the US Internal politics. And we need to preserve our strategic autonomy to act in our own interest and self-defence as per our decision.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 09 Jun 2018 06:07

Austin wrote:They will but at the place and time of their choosing , They will play this game their way to their advantage , if the need arises they can arm twist France and Israel to sanction us and indeed they have done that wrt to 2 other countries [ China & Russia ]

We need to get out of this fallacy that America wont sanction us they dont give a **** about their own allies in EU countries or Tukey when their national interest as stake , india is still a turd world nation and with far less importance to them.

They can even sanction commercial project like Nord Stream-2 where Germany wishes to buy Russian Gas but US does not want them to do so because they want to sell gas to EU at 3x time the cost so sanction them , The same goes for JCPAO where US withdraws from Iran deal for their own petty political reason and want to sanction any other countries be that their only Allay EU if they keep to the deal.

As for the arms deal in pipeline once you sanction then you are at their mercy and not them at ours , we paid most of the money and once sanctioned we will have to scout for spares support else "our" weapons duly paid will be grounded, They hold all the High Card in this game we dont.

They know once Russian arms are fully stopped via CATSAA then the game is theirs , Only Russia remains beyond their reach so they are trying to cut the veins slowly , This is a long term game decades long this is how they control nations and influence their decision in US favour.

This is not just about our Sovereignty to buy Arms but also about Sovereignty to implement our own Foreign Policy ....but I am happy MOD made a strong rebuttal to their demands.

Saar, it is not that they do not want to sanction India for the S-400 (and down the road, 2nd Akula lease, etc). They are in a bind.

Weakening India - via sanctions - will provide the opposite effect of what they want in the Indo-US Pacific Command. Take a look at South Asia and South East Asia. Who in the region can stand up to China? Will it be Nepal? Bhutan? Laos? Vietnam? Phillipines? Taiwan? Sri Lanka handed its soverignity to China with the signing of the Hambantota Port for 99 years. So it is only India who can do so. The US is not eager for a strategic partnership with India, because out of the love in their heart for us. The Chinese threat was always there for India since 1947 and America turned a blind eye to that for all these decades, because it was not their backyard and not their concern. But China gets more belligerent as time passes and is now directly threatening American interests in the region and that is a no-no for America. So the US is placing her bets on India being the counter weight to China. Sanctioning India now - over the S-400 - will be counterproductive to that goal.

Now their hope and vision is for India to eventually become a poodle and serve as an extension arm of their Indo-US Pacific Command. And poodles (UK, Australia, Japan) always roll over and wag their tail in exchange for doggie biscuits (American weaponry). But they are getting push back from India and they cannot figure why. See what Richard A Bitzinger - presently a visiting senior fellow at Singapore's S Rajaratnam School of International Studies - has to say about Round 3 of MRCA competition.

Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet to contend with Lockheed Martin F-16 and SAAB Gripen for IAF fighters
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomac ... -secretary

But the experience with the Rafale contract has made experts sceptical that the latest tender will proceed as planned. Richard A. Bitzinger, visiting senior fellow at Singapore's S.Rajaratnam School of International Studies, said he did not expect a resolution in even the next two to three years. "I am never surprised by what the Indians do when it comes to their procurement tenders. They are constantly changing the rules, changing their minds, and often even cancelling orders mid-way through," he said. "The Indians have a remarkable knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory."

The first underlined sentence was re-affirmed by a senior Boeing Executive, just a few days ago. See here ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7634&p=2276420#p2276420

The second underlined sentence is what annoys them the most. They have not gotten over the bitter taste of the Rafale win and that is illustrated clearly by the few folks on BRF who push for the F-16 and F-18.

Take a look at the first MMRCA contest. What did they do when the F-18 and F-16 lost on 27 April 2011? They whined, but it was business as usual. Since 27 April 2011, joint working groups have been formed, AH-64 and CH-47s have been ordered, a second batch of C-130s are being delivered, etc. Now, if they follow through on their veiled threat of not selling us armed drones in lieu of the S-400 purchase...what chance do you give the F-16 and F-18 winning Round 3 of the MRCA competition? Round 3 is expected to cost US $20 billion and the 57 naval fighters are expected to cost another US $14+ billion. Why do you think the US Administration - unlike the US Congress - is so eager to issue a waiver? Can you imagine such a waiver being talked about 20 years ago, during Pokharan '98? :)

The American Government is run and operated by their Military Industrial Complex. During the Cold War, the threat was Russia. Now the threat is China. And as long as there is a threat, the Military Industrial Complex makes a LOT of money.

You cannot compare Turkey, EU or any other region to South Asia and South East Asia. The Chinese are way beyond being just a thorn in the side of the Americans. They are downright giving America the middle finger. The problem is America cannot take on China by herself - she is $21+ Trillion in debt and China controls a large portion of that debt. They need India as bad, as India needs to modernise her military. They will not upset the apple cart over the S-400.

The Americans know they cannot fully stop Indian arms dependence on Russia. It will take another 20 - 30 years at least to even turn the page on that story. A good chunk of our surface fleet is Russian. Most of our sub surface fleet is Russian. More than 75% of our air fleet is Russian. The army is no different - tanks, armoured personnel carriers, anti-air defence, etc are all Russian. Who else is going to lease us a nuclear powered submarine? The Russians provided a lot of technical assistance on the Arihant Class. Do you expect the Americans now to take on that role? How are you planning to replace all this? In the blink of an eye?

Apart from hurting Russia, members in the US Congress have created CAATSA to embarrass the President of the United States. The US Administration is not that interested in enforcing CAATSA, because that means tacit admission from the US Administration that Russia interfered in the 2016 US Presidential Elections. And for as long as Donald Trump is President, expect little movement on CAATSA vis-à-vis India.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2018 07:47

Look, there's no jealousy about the Rafale deal simply looking at costs.An equiv. deal for F-35s for the RN, 48 not just 36 as with our deal for the total package, infra, weapons, the " full Monty" , has cost them $9B.This is only $0.5B more than our supposed cost of $8.5B or thereabouts.This for a stealth 5th-gen bird not a 4++ fighter.There are other alternatives far cheaper than expensive Rafales.However, if the US is going to sanction India over CAATSA, champagne corks will be popping in Paris!

US warns India about major arms deals with Russia that will attract sanctions, said a sr. official of the State Dept. Latest utterances from Ms."Cow-down-now" of the State Dept. was apart from saying goodbye to S-400s,India must sign on the dotted line for the " foundational agreements",which will turn us into a US lackey.

Indian officials said we were not comfortable with some provisions in the std. agreements that the US had with allies like Japan.

So it's now a Q of who chickens out first.Will we succumb to US blackmail or not? Will they makd spl. provisions for India? We don't have much to fear US sanctions.In fact it will only make us endeavour to become more self reliant in milware and until that happens to a large extent, there are alternatives from the West ready and eager to displace the US in sales, JVs and TOT too like France, Sweden , Israel and Britain apart from trusted old friend Russia.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby chetak » 09 Jun 2018 10:49

RoyG wrote:
Philip wrote:I have no problem with more Rafales if they are priced competitively.The RNs JSF F-35Bs, the most expensive variant, of which they're getting around 48+, cost just $0.5B more than our measly 36 Rafales! That too a 5th- Gen fighter including infrastructure and weaponry costs, the "full Monty".That's 50% more JSFs for almost the same price.

So until one sees the actual price of our Rafale deal tranche 1, of which the GOI has refused to share details, the jury is out on the cost of tranche 2.Let's see what the CAG has to say , it's report will be out shortly where we would get a proper picture of the contours of the deal.


Sounds to me like you're jealous that more competitors are entering the ring. We already have a sizeable Su force. Trust that the IAF is getting a good deal. The French are more reliable and offer better service for their products. There isn't much to worry about wrt this deal. The next lot of Rafales will be cheaper and we will have top class facilities within the country to service them.


The french are reliable and offer better service is fine but there has to be a tradeoff between cost and functionality along with platform potency.

The loss of one rafale is not comparable to the loss of one Su, if such a thing can actually be quantified on equivalent terms.

Mission wise, aren't they built for the very same purpose??


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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby chetak » 09 Jun 2018 15:04




That's exactly why so many deep states are looking for a soft regime change.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 09 Jun 2018 18:11

Russian S-400 missile purchase is a “done deal”, US looks to calm waters
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/06/ ... -done.html

Senior Indian government officials are reportedly upset at this “lack of American understanding”, after India last year scuttled the project to jointly develop a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russia.

Senior US officials complain that the US Congress displayed a “lack of nuance” in passing CAATSA. Intending primarily to tie down Trump to a hard line against Russia, Congress inadvertently placed the US administration at loggerheads with valued partners like India, Indonesia and Vietnam, who field large Russian-origin arsenals.

Behind the scenes, both governments are searching for a solution. Secretary for Defence James Mattis, who has argued before the US Congress for a CAATSA waiver for key allies, is working with New Delhi on the wording of an acceptable waiver.

Defence ministry sources say New Delhi has rejected at least one draft, while also declaring that India has no obligation to respect CAATSA, which is an American law.


1) In the first underlined sentence, the Senior US officials that the author is referring to is members in the US Administration. The Executive Branch (the President) and the Legislative Branch (the US Congress, which consists of the US House of Representatives and the US Senate) cannot agree and all three (President, House of Representatives and Senate) are Republican or have a Republican Majority. Wow :roll:

2) In the second underlined sentence, kudos to India for rejecting the first draft of a CAATSA waiver and also telling the Americans that India is under no obligation to follow CAATSA. Why should we?

If this is their attitude prior to "possible" F-16 and F-18 purchase, what will their attitude be if we buy them? Never to American fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Austin » 09 Jun 2018 20:12

US discusses with India implications of CAATSA over Russia defence deal
Provisions of the CAATSA threatens India and several other close friends and allies with sanctions.

"We've discussed CAATSA with the Government of India just as we have discussed it with a number of others who might be potentially contemplating a purchases of large defense systems from the Russians. We want to work with all of our partners to help them identify and avoid engaging in any potentially sanctionable activity," said Tina Kaidanow, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs. Kaidanow recently returned from a visit to India.

"But I can't prejudge and I don't want to prejudge anything regarding the imposition of sanctions under CAATSA because we don't want to get to that place. We really want to be in a place where we find a way forward with all of our allies," she said.

"Our encouragement here is to strengthen the US-India defence trade relationships. That's the focus of all of this," she said.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 09 Jun 2018 20:30

US to India: Buy American, Not Russian :lol:
https://www.defenseone.com/politics/201 ... an/148853/

Delhi’s plan to acquire 110 fighter jets in the coming years has prompted Lockheed Martin and Boeing to promise Indian assembly lines for their F-16 and F/A-18 aircraft. Co-production is required as part of the multibillion-dollar deal. Lockheed — which is moving its F-16 production line from Texas to South Carolina — has even considered moving all production of the jet to India.

Asked when India will move forward with the deal, Kaidanow said it is “still a little bit unclear…where the process all stands.”

Regardless, U.S. officials will advocate for American jets over four European aircraft expected to compete for the contract.

“American defense product is great product — it is the best in the world,” Kaidanow said. “It’s central that countries really think about when they acquire these things — and particularly when we’re talking about important systems like fighters — that they think about the quality and the interoperability piece and all of the things that we know come with the acquisition of American products.”

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Austin » 09 Jun 2018 20:43

Do they think we operate 90 % American Equipment that we would darn care about Interoperability of our entire system with NATO Standards :roll:

Looks like every one in SD is getting used to Trump standards of negotiating........He certainly sets the bar very high as Germany , France , Canada,China and EU are realizing :rotfl:

All the grandstanding by SD could well be for US internal political and media consumption.

We should just tell them calmly and plainly that we wont follow any US Internal Sanction law either on CAATSA or JCPOA and the only sanction law India follows is the one passed by UN , Put the ball in their court , If US cares to build a equitable and fair relation with India it will give us full exemption which any way is an internal US process.
Last edited by Austin on 09 Jun 2018 21:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby srin » 09 Jun 2018 21:11

One side-effect of having some 10 aircraft carriers standing by to unleash shock-and-awe on defence-less third world countries is that their diplomats - even the most junior ones who shouldn't have been let out of the country - have the grace of street thugs. Mostly works against small countries of the world, but when the someone of comparable size stands up against their bullying or just be passive-aggressive (nod the heads while doing something else), they don't have tools at their disposal.

I'm sure that this "Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs" met a junior assistant deputy secretary for some obscure department in MEA and conveyed her Govt's demands. And then they all had chai-biscoot. And they all nodded their heads and made sympathetic noises about how governing is so hard in democracies, while the senior babus at the very moment were planning SCO summit and S400 sale circumventing the sanctions.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2018 22:30

You must hand it to the Yanquis for such heavy handed and crass timing of their " diplomacy".I was just listening to a veteran UK diplomat/ ambassador on the G-7 summit and Trump's bewildering approach to global affairs and the contrast between him and the SD mouthpiece quoted earlier was a revelation. If the US wanted India to gravitate towards the SCO more, they couldn't have done a better job with their utterances which could've easily been timed for a later date after the meet.This prompted our outspoken official reaction , a polite " it's none of your business what we buy and from whom".

The ball is now in the Yanqui court whether they want to cut off the branch they're sitting on and see their ambitions of selling India heaps of defence systems come crashing to the ground!

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 10 Jun 2018 22:33

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/100 ... 65280?s=20 —> What did America do during Doklam for India? Bugger all! And that is probably why you had the Chief of Naval Staff point out that Quad cannot be militarized and that nobody will help us along our land border with China.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 10 Jun 2018 22:41

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/100 ... 11360?s=20 —> CISMOA/COMCASA is not about the US "helping" India upgrade its defensive capabilities through the transfer of tech. It is very much about the US wanting India to restructure its operational military posture to be subservient to the overall US posture in this region.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/100 ... 56352?s=20 —> Egypt which finally signed CISMOA in January 2018, is being lauded by US CENTCOM Commander as an 'anchor of US interests in the region'. And that is precisely what any major military signing CISMOA/COMCASA becomes in its region.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/100 ... 25792?s=20 —> BTW, Austria which has a history of neutrality was reluctant to sign CISMOA/COMCASA with America. And Austria was the first country to get Soviet/Russian energy supplies some 50 years ago.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 10 Jun 2018 22:43

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/100 ... 65664?s=20 —> Why waste time listening to think tank drones with a foreign agenda? Read the text of the US-South Korea CISMOA to understand what it entails and how it makes the country which accepts it basically a junior operational partner using American COMSEC.

https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/121135.pdf

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 10 Jun 2018 22:51

No longer seeing eye to eye?
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/no ... 098227.ece

The Quad formation, which is holding its second official meeting today in Singapore, has also been given short shrift. India rejected an Australian request to join maritime exercises along with the U.S. and Japan this June, and Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba said quite plainly last month that there was no plan to “militarise” the Quad. Contrast this with India’s acceptance of military exercises with countries of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), the Russia-China led grouping it will join this week in Qingdao, and one can understand some of the confusion in Washington. Pentagon officials, who had come to accept India’s diffidence on signing outstanding India-U.S. foundational agreements, are now left scratching their heads as India publicly enters the international arena in the corner with Russia and China, while proclaiming its intention to continue energy deals with Iran and Venezuela in defiance of American sanctions.


The biggest challenges to a common India-U.S. vision are now emerging from the new U.S. law called Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act and the U.S.’s withdrawal from the Iran nuclear deal with the threat of more secondary sanctions. Both actions have a direct impact on India, given its high dependence on defence hardware from Russia and its considerable energy interests in Iran. In particular, India’s plans to acquire the Russian S-400 missile system will become the litmus test of whether India and the U.S. can resolve their differences. Clearly the differences over a big ticket deal like this should have been sorted out long before the decisions were made; yet there is no indication that the Trump administration and the Modi government took each other into confidence before doing so.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Jun 2018 02:33

Why should we take permission or sort out our s400 purchase with Americans

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Philip » 11 Jun 2018 08:42

Precisely.Do they consult us when invading other nations and selling their lethal arms to our enemies like Pak and others?

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Austin » 11 Jun 2018 10:32

US Wants India to Steer Clear of Russian Weapons – Reports

With India already reportedly purchasing about $15 billion worth of US-manufactured arms, Tina Kaidanow of the State Department’s Political-Military Affairs Bureau continues to tout the “strategic importance” of US-Indian relations in a bid to sway New Delhi away from Russian defense contractors, according to Defense One media website.

"If we want to see that continue and I think both we and our Indian friends want to do that, then it’s incumbent on us to give them the best case and hopefully that will engender a willingness on the part of the Indian government to think about our systems as they go forward in their procurement," she said.


The acquisition of these systems is … beneficial to the Russian government. Our distinct hope is that other countries will take that into account as they make their decisions," she remarked.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby chetak » 11 Jun 2018 10:42

Austin wrote:Do they think we operate 90 % American Equipment that we would darn care about Interoperability of our entire system with NATO Standards :roll:

Looks like every one in SD is getting used to Trump standards of negotiating........He certainly sets the bar very high as Germany , France , Canada,China and EU are realizing :rotfl:

All the grandstanding by SD could well be for US internal political and media consumption.

We should just tell them calmly and plainly that we wont follow any US Internal Sanction law either on CAATSA or JCPOA and the only sanction law India follows is the one passed by UN , Put the ball in their court , If US cares to build a equitable and fair relation with India it will give us full exemption which any way is an internal US process.


Our major mistake was allowing the applicability of FATCA in India where Indian citizens are being made to sign FATCA when mutual funds etc are being purchased by them.

This was the thin end of the wedge.

Which idiot agreed that US law has some, partial or any jurisdiction at all in any form or any avatar whatever that would make it possible apply in the sovereign territory of India??

Do equivalent Indian laws have reciprocal applicability in the US??

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby ramana » 12 Jun 2018 00:55

chetak,

Do look up CAATSA in Italian!

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jun 2018 05:59

US extraterritorial sanctions: Begging for a waiver now is the worst possible option for India
https://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.c ... for-india/

By Brahma Chellaney

By imposing extraterritorial or “secondary” sanctions, the US seeks to effectively extend its jurisdiction far beyond its borders. Armed with unmatched power from the role of the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency, America has the capacity and will to coerce allies and adversaries alike by threatening to lock them out of the US financial system. But make no mistake: Its extraterritorial sanctions violate international law, the UN Charter and WTO rules. India is directly in the crosshairs of the new US extraterritorial sanctions targeting Russia and Iran. India is already suffering the unintended consequences of President Donald Trump’s unilateral withdrawal from the Iran nuclear deal – a pullout that has spurred higher oil-import bills, the rupee’s weakening against the US dollar, and increased foreign exchange outflows. This is just the latest financial hit India has suffered since 2005 when New Delhi, under US persuasion, voted against Iran in the International Atomic Energy Agency’s governing board, prompting Tehran to cancel a long-term LNG deal favourable to India.

Under Trump’s predecessor, Barack Obama, India was forced between 2012 and 2015 to significantly slash Iranian oil imports and pay Iran in rupees or initiate barter trade. Now India has to readopt those workarounds on payment and shipping insurance because global shipping operators and tanker owners are pulling back from Iran-related business even before the new sanctions take effect on November 4. The sanctions threaten to also impede India’s Pakistan-bypassing transportation corridor to Afghanistan and Central Asia via Iran, including the Chabahar port project. The India implications of the new Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) are even more stark. While dangling the prospect of securing a “flexible waiver authority” from its Congress, the US intends to use CAATSA to try and wean India gradually off its craving for Russian weapons so as to boost its own arms sales. The US is already the largest arms seller to India. But it basically has been selling defensive systems, including big-ticket items like the P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft and the C-17 Globemaster III and C-130J Super Hercules military transport planes.

Russia, by contrast, has transferred offensive weapon systems to India, including strategic bombers (Sukhoi 30MKI), an aircraft carrier (INS Vikramaditya), conventional submarines and a nuclear-powered submarine (INS Chakra). The only foreign power helping India with strategic projects like the Arihant nuclear submarine is Russia, which today is willing to sell India the lethal, interceptor-based S-400 Triumf air defence system and also lease a second nuclear-powered submarine. On balance, Russia remains India’s most critical defence partner. Yet, through CAATSA, the US is seeking to have a say in India’s defence dealings with Russia. For example, it has signalled its disapproval of the planned S-400 import on grounds that it would thwart building interoperability with Indian forces, as if India is not America’s strategic partner but its client state. The US is ingeniously employing extraterritorial sanctions to advance its geopolitical and commercial interests. But can India tolerate an American veto over its defence deals with Moscow?

How India navigates the new sanctions will be a crucial test of its ability to safeguard an independent foreign policy. External affairs minister Sushma Swaraj says, “India follows only UN sanctions, not unilateral sanctions of any country.” But if India seeks deal related or rolling waivers, it would, in effect, be adhering to the US sanctions. Begging for a waiver is the worst possible choice India can pursue, because it will come with conditions that crimp New Delhi’s latitude further. India has diplomatic space to rebuff US pressure because the US this time is acting alone, with its own European allies defiant. If India goes ahead with Russian and Iranian deals regardless of the sanctions threat, the US will have little choice but to exempt India without conditions. India should partner other key democracies to push back with full diplomatic strength, including, if necessary, hauling the US into the WTO dispute-resolution body and introducing a UN General Assembly resolution against unlawful extraterritorial sanctions. The main beneficiary of the new US sanctions, of course, will be China, ever ready to capitalise on opportunities in sanctions-hit countries.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Austin » 12 Jun 2018 07:02

Good write up by Bhrama , his views on the impact of Iran sanctions at great economic cost to india is accurate also in past we had to abandon favourable deal with Iran and got nothing in return neither opec or US compensated by providing equal or better deal in return for dropping Iran deal it was a net loss for india in 2005 and post 2010

Fast forward in 2018 we are in same boat with JcPOA same pressure to drop Iran oil etc with great loss to india in cost and energy security and all we get in return are just more threats

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby kit » 12 Jun 2018 07:40

I feel the CAATSA for India is more like the Pressler amendment for Pakistan .. we know you do but just in case ... tighten screws once in a while.. not now..but definitely later

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby kit » 12 Jun 2018 07:44

India definitely needs to play down it's arms deals with the Americans..maybe some token numbers .Definitely no large scale purchases like the F35 OR F16 . No to the F18 for IN as well. I used to support this option but no longer.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby kit » 12 Jun 2018 10:12

One has to think at this juncture that the one country that stands to profit the most from a conflict / standoff between India and China is the US .. they have everything to gain and nothing to lose.


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