CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

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Cain Marko
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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Sep 2018 22:08

Wow and folks criticize the vikad deal, calling it a rust bucket. at least it can be operated without restrictions. And there are some that excuse the bullying by saying it is just posturing. wah bhai wah. It is downright humiliating to have some two bit DC babus wagging their fingers at India as though the latter is somehow a vassal colony or something.

Btw, I wonder what happens to the LCA if things go south. Always knew the ej200 or m88 was a better idea - idiot decision makers have unnecessary risked a strategic program despite having been bitten earlier.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Eric Thompson » 01 Sep 2018 22:46

Cain Marko wrote:Wow and folks criticize the vikad deal, calling it a rust bucket. at least it can be operated without restrictions. And there are some that excuse the bullying by saying it is just posturing. wah bhai wah. It is downright humiliating to have some two bit DC babus wagging their fingers at India as though the latter is somehow a vassal colony or something.

Btw, I wonder what happens to the LCA if things go south. Always knew the ej200 or m88 was a better idea - idiot decision makers have unnecessary risked a strategic program despite having been bitten earlier.


With the historical experience of Western suppliers cancelling the agreements and stopping all cooperation due to MTCR and later due to Indian nuke tests, One would have imagined that GoI would have stayed clear of engaging with the West but to ones surprise we see GoI doubling down in procuring and engaging them under the sword of fresh sanctions. Incredible!! and simply criminal.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Austin » 01 Sep 2018 22:58

Eric Thompson wrote:
Trikaal wrote:
Wow, you say that like they are doing it as a favour to us and not for hard cash. Also, what an awesome ally in Russia we have, one who sells same or better equipment to our most dangerous enemy china. Russia sold us S-400 after china, Russia sold us Su-30 and sold china Su-35. Truly an awesome ally, we should all bend over and pay our obeisance to the great Czar Putin.


If India is paying cash, Will US lease their Nuke sub to India with no strings attached and autonomy to operate it?

Is it Russia's fault if India could not close the S-400 deal prior to Chinese S-400 deal?

Russia would sell their equipment to make money while on the other hand US would provide equipment to Pakistan for free to keep a check on India.

India always had the option to buy SU-35. It was India's decision not to buy them as India wanted better tech through Super Sukhoi upgrade.

Enjoy reading the following about INS Jalashwa Formerly USS Trenton:

The Indian government has embraced EUMA despite concerns expressed within the official establishment over its restrictive and invasive clauses.

For example, Navy chief Admiral Suresh Mehta had publicly described EUMA as 'intrusive.' Speaking at an April 2008 conference organised by the London-based International Strategic Studies Institute in New Delhi, Admiral Mehta said: 'There are certain things we can't agree to. As a sovereign nation, we can't accept intrusiveness into our system, so there is some fundamental difficulty.'

He added: 'The US may have this kind of (end user) agreements with everyone. I don't believe in that. We pay for something and we get some technology. What I do with it, is my thing.'

In fact, India's Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) in a March 2008 report criticized the end-use monitoring clauses in the contract for the USS Trenton/INS Jalashwa. (No sooner the US had transferred that transport ship to India than a gas leak killed an Indian officer and five sailors on board.)[†]
[b]
The CAG report stated: 'Restrictive clauses raise doubts about the real advantages from this deal... For example, (there are) restrictions on the offensive deployment of the ship and permission to the (US) government to conduct an inspection and inventory of all articles transferred under the end-use monitoring clause of the LOA (Letter of Offer and Acceptance issued by the US government).'


Note that the contract contains even 'restrictions on the offensive deployment of the ship.'

Against this background, the Indian government ought to have taken Parliament into confidence on the EUMA rather than place on record just the two sentences on the agreement found in Krishna's statement on Clinton's visit.

[*] The MLSA envisages exchange of services and logistics. If it gets signed, the Indian and American militaries will provide logistic support, berthing and refueling facilities to each other's warships and aircraft on a barter or equal-value exchange basis. But given that the Indian military, including the navy, has no deployments or operations outside the region, the MSLA, in effect, would be a one-sided arrangement.

[†] The purchase of the USS Trenton was severely criticized by the Comptroller and Auditor General, which in its report raised several questions, including why the ship was bought when the US Navy itself had concluded in 2003 that the ship was not suitable for modernization ought to be decommissioned in 2006. The report pointed out gas leaks on board other Trenton-type ships in which three American sailors lost their lives.[/b]



WoW is the bolded part even is true . cant deploy Jalvashwa is that even true

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Eric Thompson » 01 Sep 2018 23:02

Austin wrote:
Eric Thompson wrote:
If India is paying cash, Will US lease their Nuke sub to India with no strings attached and autonomy to operate it?

Is it Russia's fault if India could not close the S-400 deal prior to Chinese S-400 deal?

Russia would sell their equipment to make money while on the other hand US would provide equipment to Pakistan for free to keep a check on India.

India always had the option to buy SU-35. It was India's decision not to buy them as India wanted better tech through Super Sukhoi upgrade.

Enjoy reading the following about INS Jalashwa Formerly USS Trenton:

The Indian government has embraced EUMA despite concerns expressed within the official establishment over its restrictive and invasive clauses.

For example, Navy chief Admiral Suresh Mehta had publicly described EUMA as 'intrusive.' Speaking at an April 2008 conference organised by the London-based International Strategic Studies Institute in New Delhi, Admiral Mehta said: 'There are certain things we can't agree to. As a sovereign nation, we can't accept intrusiveness into our system, so there is some fundamental difficulty.'

He added: 'The US may have this kind of (end user) agreements with everyone. I don't believe in that. We pay for something and we get some technology. What I do with it, is my thing.'

In fact, India's Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) in a March 2008 report criticized the end-use monitoring clauses in the contract for the USS Trenton/INS Jalashwa. (No sooner the US had transferred that transport ship to India than a gas leak killed an Indian officer and five sailors on board.)[†]
[b]
The CAG report stated: 'Restrictive clauses raise doubts about the real advantages from this deal... For example, (there are) restrictions on the offensive deployment of the ship and permission to the (US) government to conduct an inspection and inventory of all articles transferred under the end-use monitoring clause of the LOA (Letter of Offer and Acceptance issued by the US government).'


Note that the contract contains even 'restrictions on the offensive deployment of the ship.'

Against this background, the Indian government ought to have taken Parliament into confidence on the EUMA rather than place on record just the two sentences on the agreement found in Krishna's statement on Clinton's visit.

[*] The MLSA envisages exchange of services and logistics. If it gets signed, the Indian and American militaries will provide logistic support, berthing and refueling facilities to each other's warships and aircraft on a barter or equal-value exchange basis. But given that the Indian military, including the navy, has no deployments or operations outside the region, the MSLA, in effect, would be a one-sided arrangement.

[†] The purchase of the USS Trenton was severely criticized by the Comptroller and Auditor General, which in its report raised several questions, including why the ship was bought when the US Navy itself had concluded in 2003 that the ship was not suitable for modernization ought to be decommissioned in 2006. The report pointed out gas leaks on board other Trenton-type ships in which three American sailors lost their lives.[/b]



WoW is the bolded part even is true . cant deploy Jalvashwa is that even true


Don't doubt. The excerpt was from the below source. The article was written by none other than Brahma Chellaney.

http://news.rediff.com/special/2009/jul ... tsheet.htm


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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 02 Sep 2018 12:41

3 ways India can escape Trump sanctions for Russia S-400 missile deal - ASHLEY J. TELLIS

https://theprint.in/opinion/3-ways-indi ... 09153/amp/

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby nvishal » 02 Sep 2018 14:06

^ His original article(advise) is on Carnegie Endowment site where he tells the US govt to make it difficult for India to make the payment for S400

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 02 Sep 2018 15:34

Austin wrote:3 ways India can escape Trump sanctions for Russia S-400 missile deal - ASHLEY J. TELLIS

https://theprint.in/opinion/3-ways-indi ... 09153/amp/


US’ opposition to S-400 systems

Trump is opposed to the proliferation of S-400 systems globally. The S-400 represents a conspicuous danger to US military operations at a time when US forces are threatened by formidable anti-access and area-denial “bubbles” around the world – a peril that the Trump administration resolutely seeks to defeat in the manner laid out in its National Defence Strategy. In addition, Trump cannot understand why America’s friends would want to buy weapons from any other country.


So S-400 is a threat to US Military Operation and India buying it will be a threat to US to conduct any future military operations against India 8)

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby kit » 02 Sep 2018 15:49

Austin wrote:
Austin wrote:3 ways India can escape Trump sanctions for Russia S-400 missile deal - ASHLEY J. TELLIS

https://theprint.in/opinion/3-ways-indi ... 09153/amp/


US’ opposition to S-400 systems

Trump is opposed to the proliferation of S-400 systems globally. The S-400 represents a conspicuous danger to US military operations at a time when US forces are threatened by formidable anti-access and area-denial “bubbles” around the world

So S-400 is a threat to US Military Operation and India buying it will be a threat to US to conduct any future military operations against India 8)


Well there you go. As simple as that. S400 deal will go on but Washington seems intent on extracting it's pound of flesh. [b]Is it really wise to keep buying American weapons

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Mort Walker » 02 Sep 2018 18:37



Upto $8 billion for 5 or 6 S-400 systems? That money is far better spent on upgrading Akash and deploying better ground based radar coverage. Any acquisition of this magnitude needs to be done domestically. Buying technology from Russia is better than whole weapon systems.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Philip » 02 Sep 2018 19:30

MW, the S-400 is the most capable ABM system today, with several variants of missiles to deal with multiple threats.It gives us a credible defence against both Pak and China and any mischief from Uncle Sam from DG.

Akash simply does not have the potential, but has its niche being acquired in increasing numbers.CM is on the spot too in his post.With acquisition of the S-400s- and we are reporyedly being offered a more advanced system that what China is getting, we will be less susceptible to bullying and blackmail from the Sino- Pak combine and the US.This deal hugely reinforces our sovereignty and independence, and combined with advanced BMos-H, extra Akulas/ SSNs, SSBNs with Ru assistance, our strategic capability both for defence and offence significantly increases.

The GOI must call CAATSAfor what it is.A tool to blackmail and bully nations into becoming vassal states
paying obeisance to a white " massa" yet again, this tims from the other side of ghe Atlantic.We cannot allow a nouveau East India Co. to return to our shores under new ownership!

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Sep 2018 03:51

The S-400 is most capable on paper. Even if the deal is signed in October 2018, we wont see it in operation until 2030. Russia has to fulfil China and other orders first. In the mean time India is out of the down payment, by then Russia will have another stooge in power like Yeltsin and India will never see the S-400 except maybe one battery. Better to put the money in Akash. The funds stay at home. No more large foreign weapon system acquisitions. India is a world power and must stand on its own. Just think of the technical base which will be developed by spending that $8 billion at home.

CAATSA is a blessing in disguise. The Americans know it and will never impose it on India.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 03 Sep 2018 06:58

Mort Saar: Are we sure about the 2030 timeline? I came across this from July 2018...

To speed up deliveries, Russia's S-400 air defence system may come without offset package
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 260971.cms

If the contract is signed within a year, deliveries could start by 2019-20. "One year for the contract plus another two years for delivery. That will be the timeframe," Kladov said. "The Indian side invited us for negotiations in March. So, if we start negotiations in March, it will take another year to prepare for the contract. I do hope it will happen this year or maybe first half of next year."

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 03 Sep 2018 07:00

No country-specific waiver under CAATSA: U.S.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/internati ... 827501.ece

No blanket waivers from punitive U.S. sanctions will be issued for any one particular country under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), an official of the Trump Administration has said.

Speaking to reporters on the condition of anonymity, the senior official said the grant of any such waiver for significant transactions with Russia would be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

“There are no blanket waivers that will be issued for any one country, and any waiver that we might contemplate for significant transaction with Russia would be assessed on a case-by-case basis and would require, among other things, countries to significantly reduce their reliance on Russian arms, the official said yesterday.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 03 Sep 2018 07:06

For a country that trumps itself on being the world's sole superpower, why is the S-400 making them shit their pants? :)

India-US 2+2 talks: If Washington wants to be New Delhi’s most ‘reliable strategic partner’, it must shun coercive approach
https://www.firstpost.com/world/india-u ... 90141.html

As we approach the inaugural high-level dialogue in New Delhi between India and the US in 2+2 format, it’s worth taking a close look at the nature and structure of the bilateral relationship that is arguably at its strongest than any other time in the past. This closer embrace is driven by a strategic and geopolitical logic. The seeming irrefutability of that logic — China’s meteoric and aggressive rise —has raised expectations that the trajectory will remain steady and linear. That said, the strength of the partnership cannot be taken for granted, neither can be the trajectory. It isn’t just the political turbulence caused by a mercurial White House. For all of Donald Trump’s disruptions, his administration has built on the foundation laid by successive US presidents (starting with Bill Clinton) to place India at the front and centre of US national security and South Asia policy. The dangers emerge more from the presence of stubborn irritants in ties that have grown in scope and scale even as the ties have progressively strengthened. In fact, an unfortunate side-effect of a deeper engagement has been a papering over of cracks. In absence of an honest assessment, these cracks could become impediments.

It has been clear for some time now that shared defence and strategic interests have been the major drivers of the India-US partnership. This tilt precedes Trump, though he has taken forward the Barack Obama legacy of declaring India as a ‘major defence partner’ in 2016. India is central to Trump administration’s National Defence Strategy and National Security Strategy and the US is keen to become India’s primary and principal supplier of arms. Bilateral defence trade now stands at $18 billion from almost zero 10 years ago. The US describes India as an “all weather partner” and confirms that “operationalisation of India’s status as a major defence partner” will be firmly on the agenda when James Mattis and Mike Pompeo meet Nirmala Sitharaman and Sushma Swaraj on 6 September. According to Alice Wells, the principal deputy assistant secretary for south and central Asia in the Trump administration, the 2+2 dialogue will be “an important opportunity to discuss and enhance engagement on a range of diplomatic and security priorities and really is an indication of the deepening strategic partnership that we enjoy with India.”

The rise in defence commerce and the burgeoning strategic relationship mask some of the vulnerabilities, nowhere starker than in trade relations. The deterioration in trade ties has been inversely proportional and near simultaneous to the geopolitical embrace. Trump is fixated on the $25 billion deficit that US suffers in bilateral trade — a pittance compared to its $350 billion deficit with China. Trump administration has slapped steel and aluminum tariffs on India — inviting reciprocal duties on 29 American exports — while US has lodged six cases against India at the WTO. India’s trade barriers and myopic policy of capping prices of medical devices has caused heartburn among American manufacturers and has contributed towards hardening of stance. India’s industrial policy, status as a global manufacturer or regional security imperatives pose no threat (and is in fact, complementary) to the US but such realities are incompatible with Trump’s trade philosophy. The US president also seems unable to understand that obsessing over a paltry trade deficit — that anyway could become a surplus once India starts importing more defence equipment with the signing of foundational agreements such as COMCASA — undercuts American strategy of encouraging India to take a leadership role in India-Pacific. The Trumpian world is defined by such incongruities.

As Professor Sreeram Chaula of the Jindal School of International Affairs points out in Foreign Policy, “So inflexible is Trump that invocations of the 'strategic partnership' between India and the US and Washington’s designation of New Delhi as a 'major defence partner' have not moved the needle on tariffs against India. Sophisticated suggestions, like that of the US House Speaker Paul Ryan to deploy tailored tariffs that hurt only China while avoiding broader damage, is music to Indian ears that finds no audience in the White House.” If trade deficit remains a major irritant, free movement of talent occupies the next spot. Both issues reflect a protectionist turn in US politics. On the contentious H1B visa issue, Indian interests are completely at odds with Trump’s politics. The crackdown on the non-immigrant visa programme has affected Indian skilled workers and IT professionals. As in trade, here too, both sides suffer from an inflexibility of approach. External Affairs minister Sushma Swaraj had told Parliament in July that India will “forcefully” raise the issue of H1B visas with the US during the 2+2 dialogue and maintained that “growing restrictions on the visa rules by the Trump administration was a cause of concern to the Indian government, the Opposition members and the entire House.”

The US' move to instead extend the suspension by five more months of premium processing for H-1B visas till February 2019 couldn’t have gone down well with New Delhi. The US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) announced on Wednesday that it was “extending the temporary suspension” and, beginning 11 September, “will expand this temporary suspension to include certain additional H1B petitions.” Conversely, even as horns remained locked over these irritants, India and the US edged closer to signing COMCASA (Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement), the foundational agreement that will enable interoperability between US and Indian forces over an end-to-end secured network and lay down the legal framework for transfer of high-end American weapons systems. The negotiations, which remained stuck for close to a decade over India’s reluctance to let the US access its sensitive military information, seem to be heading towards a conclusion and it might be cleared during the 2+2 dialogue, according to reports. “While the finalised text of Comcasa is currently being vetted by the national security planners of the Narendra Modi government, India and the US have also decided for the first time to conduct an advanced tri-service humanitarian assistance and disaster relief exercise off the coast of Visakhapatnam in the Bay of Bengal later this year,” reports Hindustan Times.

This development must be seen in conjunction with US' move to confer Strategic Trade Authorisation-1 (STA-1) status on India that paves the way for the sale of cutting-edge civil and defence equipment. India is only the third Asian nation after South Korea and Japan to get the status — a position that is reserved for US treaty allies and nations that have signed all four nuclear export control regimes, unlike India. It is evident that the Trump administration has made an exception for its “major defence partner” and “natural ally”. This is where the rubber hits the road. If defence cooperation and shared security interests have almost exclusively driven bilateral ties to a close embrace, then US Congress’s enactment of the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) — that Trump signed into law last year — has struck at the heart of the strategic partnership. It did seem as if the Trump administration had tapped into the bipartisan mood in the US Congress and has been successful in securing a carve-out for India as Delhi doubles down on the deal to buy five Triumf S-400 strategic surface-to-air missile systems from Russia. The $6 billion deal puts India in the cross hairs of CAATSA. The secondary sanctions rely on third parties to target Russia’s defence industry, stifle its sale of equipment and effect a change in Russian behavior. If the contract passes through, it would deal a major blow to the US' target of making the punitive measures against Russia work. And yet, considering the nature of the US-India strategic partnership and India’s pivotal role in US Indo-Pacific strategy, a carve-out was sought by Mattis.

The US Congress last July permitted Trump to take a decision on waiver application for allies such as India, Indonesia and Vietnam if the administration can certify that a country is reducing defence equipment imports from Russia, expanding cooperation with the US in defence deals and the carve-out is in keeping with US security interests. The move was largely interpreted as an exception meant for India that had clarified its intent of going ahead with the S-400 deal despite the threat of sanctions. Jeff Smith, a south Asia expert at The Heritage Foundation, was quoted as saying by Reuters that the changes were a “meaningful and positive step forward” and that they “reduce the possibility an Indian arms purchase from Russia will trigger CAATSA sanctions, a situation both the administration and most of Capitol Hill are keen to avoid.” The Indian media interpreted it on similar lines. The Indian Express saw a “give and take” on CAATSA and COMCASA while The Hindu noted that “US Congress’s report allowing the introduction of a presidential waiver of its controversial CAATSA will be greeted with a sense of relief in both New Delhi and Washington.”

It now emerges that this was a premature and even misleading conclusion. A top Pentagon official in charge of the Asia desk has clarified that the passing of the John S McCain National Defence Authorisation Act for Fiscal Year (the ‘Act’ for the waiver) by the US Congress “does not imply” that India will enjoy a carve-out if it goes ahead with the deal. Randall Schriver, the Pentagon’s assistant secretary of defence for Asian and Pacific Security Affairs, said in Washington on Wednesday that an impression “that we are going to completely protect the India relationship, insulate India from any fallout from this legislation no matter what they do… is a bit misleading. We would still have very significant concerns if India pursued major new platforms and systems (from Russia).” In conversation with Ashley Tellis, the Tata Chair for Strategic Affairs, at an event organised by the Carnegie Endowment For International Peace, Schriver said: “I can't sit here and tell you that they would be exempt, that we would use that waiver, that will be the decision of the president if he is faced with a major new platform and capability that India has acquired from Russia”.

The Pentagon official’s stance on Russia and Iran sounded very different. If there was a clear description of intent on CAATSA, Schriver appeared more circumspect on Iran where he expressed a willingness to “listen to and understand” India’s concerns. On Iran, US sanctions policy has again ended up squarely targeting India’s energy and strategic relationship. If Pentagon appeared to put the onus on Trump regarding sanctions, that hardly eases India’s concerns. Ashley Tellis, in his piece for Carnegie, has pointed out that when it comes to the Russian S-400 missile system, Trump could prove to be more inflexible with India than even the US Congress because the S-400 SAM falls between the twin stools of Trump’s insecurity and American vulnerability. In Tellis’s words, “The S-400 represents a conspicuous danger to US military operations at a time when US forces are threatened by formidable anti-access and area-denial “bubbles” around the world… In addition, Trump cannot understand why America’s friends would want to buy weapons from any other country, since, as he put it, 'the United States makes by far the best military equipment in the world: the best jets, the best missiles, the best guns, the best everything.' His antipathy toward the S-400 thus extends to acquisitions across the globe.”

Given this predicament, India and the US have their work cut out when they meet on Thursday. On India’s part, the need to maintain defence ties with Russia must be squared with its growing strategic closeness towards the US. It isn’t just a matter of replacing Soviet-era military equipment with US platforms (though in itself that is tricky enough). It also ties with India’s need to maintain an independent foreign policy that is immune to coercive strategies exactly of the kind that the US is seeking to impose. It is difficult to see India canceling the Russian deal, though it might be well advised to cut off the haughtiness in approach while discussing the thorny issue during 2+2 talks. The US needs to show greater understanding towards India’s strategic compulsions. As Brahma Chellaney writes in Nikkei Asian Review, “America has overtaken Russia in recent years as the top arms seller to New Delhi, and also emerged as a source of oil and gas supply to India. But these evolving ties cannot at this stage replace India's links with Russia and Iran. The US has basically transferred defensive military systems, while Russia has sold India offensive weapons, including a nuclear-powered submarine and an aircraft carrier.” If the US wants to present itself as a more reliable strategic partner for India compared to Russia, a heavy-handed approach might not be the right course to take. Coercions rarely work in diplomacy.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 03 Sep 2018 07:10

U.S., India may not sign security pact at 2+2 meet
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 849853.ece

Likely to merely announce an in-principle agreement

At the 2+2 dialogue between India and the U.S. here on September 6, an announcement could be made about an in-principle agreement between the two sides on the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA), but its signing is doubtful, say officials on both sides. “Work is still on. Some form of announcement is expected. Lawyers on both sides are looking into the draft. In the week prior, they did some adjustments in the text,” an official familiar with the process said.

Last-Minute Discussions

While the contours of the agreement have been agreed upon, last-minute deliberations are under way to address specific concerns in the language. “As of now, it is difficult to say if it would be signed during the 2+2,” another official said. Diplomatic sources, too, while expressing the hope that the agreement would be signed, said realistically it was not clear yet. This is a similar trajectory followed when India signed the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Understanding. The two sides announced an “in-principle” decision to conclude it during the then U.S. Secretary of Defence Ash Carter’s visit to Delhi in April 2016. However, it was concluded only when the then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar visited the U.S. in August that year. The US which has designated India a Major Defence Partner (MDP) has repeatedly stated that the foundational agreements were essential critical for India to gain access to cutting edge technology. The COMCASA will facilitate exchange of secure communications between the two militaries and allow the sale of encrypted communication systems to India. For a long time there have been concerns that this would allow US to listen into Indian secure communication channels. But these have been gradually overcome and India agreed to move forward with the agreement. However, signing the COMCASA “will override objections by the Indian military which fears that it will enable seamless penetration horizontally and vertically of the official Indian communications grid, including the most sensitive strategic communications network” writes strategic analyst Bharat Karnad in his latest book Staggering Forward.

Other Announcements

Apart from COMCASA, another major announcement likely to be made is for cross posting of officials at the US Defence Innovation Unit Experimental (DIUx) and India’s recently created Innovations for Defence Excellence (iDEX) to work on joint development projects. The proposal for this was made by the US and intends to take forward the co-development and co-production efforts under the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI). Other announcements expected from the dialogue include likely US sale of MH-60 Romeo maritime helicopters and armed drones through the Foreign Military Sales programme. The US has already cleared the legislative hurdles to sell armed drones to India. A joint tri-service amphibious Humanitarian and Disaster Relief (HADR) exercise which has been in the works is also expected to be announced. As External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj and Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman and their US counterparts Secretary of State Mike R Pompeo and Secretary of Defence James Mattis meet for the first 2+2 dialogue, the issue of India’s defence cooperation with Russia and the looming sanctions under CAATSA will be a major issue for discussion. India has already stated that it would go ahead with the purchase of the S-400 long range air defence system from Russia and the deal is expected to be concluded later this year.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Mort Walker » 04 Sep 2018 03:26

Rakesh wrote:For a country that trumps itself on being the world's sole superpower, why is the S-400 making them shit their pants? :)

More because of the $$$ value. I can guarantee that if Turkey gets the S-400, the US will get its hands on it too as Turkey's armed forces are integrated with western Europe. Turkey is also the launching point for US operations into the middle east and things between the US and Turkey will calm down behind the scenes. Much of CAATSA is motivated to put pressure on Trump who is seen as sympathetic to Russia as the Russians are white Christian nationalists. India is an easy target is the way it is seen.

BrahMos is the what makes others shit in their pants.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby kit » 04 Sep 2018 05:09

Rakesh wrote:U.S., India may not sign security pact at 2+2 meet

While the contours of the agreement have been agreed upon, last-minute deliberations are under way to address specific concerns in the language. “As of now, it is difficult to say if it would be signed during the 2+2,” another official said. Diplomatic sources, too, while expressing the hope that the agreement would be signed, said realistically it was not clear yet. This is a similar trajectory followed when India signed the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Understanding. The two sides announced an “in-principle” decision to conclude it during the then U.S. Secretary of Defence Ash Carter’s visit to Delhi in April 2016. However, it was concluded only when the then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar visited the U.S. in August that year. The US which has designated India a Major Defence Partner (MDP) has repeatedly stated that the foundational agreements were essential critical for India to gain access to cutting edge technology. The COMCASA will facilitate exchange of secure communications between the two militaries and allow the sale of encrypted communication systems to India. For a long time there have been concerns that this would allow US to listen into Indian secure communication channels. But these have been gradually overcome and India agreed to move forward with the agreement. However, signing the COMCASA “will override objections by the Indian military which fears that it will enable seamless penetration horizontally and vertically of the official Indian communications grid, including the most sensitive strategic communications network” writes strategic analyst Bharat Karnad in his latest book Staggering Forward.

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I am kind to struggling to understand why India wants to surrender its strategic autonomy lock stock and barrel to a very unreliable country at the least !! ..Is the Chinese raring to go at India ? Does India really have no nuclear weapons and hence at the mercy of China ? Why does India need all those American weapons coming with strings attached? And signing off on all the alphabet soup agreements that literally open all of the Indian military secrets to another country which can trade it at will to some other nation?

What gives ?

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 04 Sep 2018 10:07

US will have to keep its BP tablet popping up with regularity as $ 11 billion arms deal between Russia and India under works , This would exclude the SSN , ATV and other strategic deals that would be done silently

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 527901.cms

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby nvishal » 04 Sep 2018 10:39

kit wrote:What gives ?

Engaging the US is part of our policy.

Just don't get sucked into any of their theaters

"indo-pacific" < - - - - - - - :: eyes roll ::

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby ArjunPandit » 04 Sep 2018 12:02

kit wrote:I am kind to struggling to understand why India wants to surrender its strategic autonomy lock stock and barrel to a very unreliable country at the least !! ..Is the Chinese raring to go at India ? Does India really have no nuclear weapons and hence at the mercy of China ? Why does India need all those American weapons coming with strings attached? And signing off on all the alphabet soup agreements that literally open all of the Indian military secrets to another country which can trade it at will to some other nation?

What gives ?

Poeple have short memories. In my initial days, when I think ramana pointed the BRF dictionary link first time. I was intrigued by an entry of on Soybean
https://sites.google.com/site/brfdictio ... s/soybeans

This story should reminder to those who clamour for TFTA Khan stuff. Is there any link to the overcharging stuff. I could find that payments were given or bartered through soybean but could not find if there was overcharging

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby kit » 04 Sep 2018 22:43

nvishal wrote:
kit wrote:What gives ?

Engaging the US is part of our policy.

Just don't get sucked into any of their theaters

"indo-pacific" < - - - - - - - :: eyes roll ::


thats what i thought about when the US establishment came up with "Indo" pacific :roll:

seriously ?!!

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby SaiK » 05 Sep 2018 05:10

let us analyze BK's issues with COMCASA.
https://bharatkarnad.com/2018/09/04/ind ... ed-states/

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby SaiK » 05 Sep 2018 05:18

COMCASA should not be anyway surrender our sovereignty. It is about compatibility of equipments for those we buy from America. Now, the platform may have our own comms, for our own use.. when we use with NATO or US forces, we shall use their comms. Kinda dual comms devices installed on these platforms is what I read.

what do others read?

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Philip » 05 Sep 2018 08:17

The Pioneer today says that the US is NOT guaranteeing a waiver to India over its planned buy of Ru S-400 missile systems.This is coming just ahead of the 2+2 talks between both govts. on the push for strategic ties.

This brinkmanship and armtwisting at the 11th hour by the US is deplorable and we too should similarly bluntly announcd that we will not sign on or agree in principle to the intrusive CAATSA protocol unless the waiver is granted.To go ahead with the 2+2 talks under the damocles sword of sanctions is an insult and deeply humiliating to India.I would even prefer postponing the talks indefinitely until the waiver is given.We can get milware from Europe, Israel, Russia, etc.Arms from the US attached with shackles must be avoided at all costs.
We are not and must never kowtow to America like a servile vassal state and behave like a grovelling rent boy like Pak.


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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby chetak » 06 Sep 2018 15:49


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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Manish_P » 06 Sep 2018 15:53

^ Truth be told, i didn't expect it (nor wanted it) to be signed either.

Ah well.

I had asked a question about the AH-64 Apache and one of its systems (enabling data transfer and drone control), which seemed to be connected to this, and hence was not on offer to us then. I wonder how that will pan out now...

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby ashthor » 06 Sep 2018 16:16

Could be only for US made equipment's.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby SaiK » 06 Sep 2018 16:38

The most important aspect is US gets to sell comms package so that the Intel has direct network feed into ops data from massa. Example GPS data, or terrain avoidance data, or other mil intel on assets; formation activities etc. India will add specific encryption codes and equipments at both ends can communicate with mutually agreed methods.

It is not about CnC as I read it.
Last edited by SaiK on 06 Sep 2018 16:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby brar_w » 06 Sep 2018 16:39

Manish_P wrote:

I had asked a question about the AH-64 Apache and one of its systems (enabling data transfer and drone control), which seemed to be connected to this, and hence was not on offer to us then. I wonder how that will pan out now...


I believe that the standard Echo's are equipped with the SDR that would be required for this capability to take place. So in case, an operator wants this capability in the future then this would entail a software-based solution as all E model Apache's come with the same SDR and Mission computers. You would also need a UAV on the other side that has the same data-link and interoperability with the AH-64. Where things get more complex and require hardware enhancements is for the mode integrated capability where the aircraft is controlling multiple drone sensor feeds and also potentially operating the drone or at least mission tasking. This, I believe requires the addition of an above rotor wideband antenna which most of the US AH-64Es are only now getting (they didn't have them when they were delivered).

https://www.l3t.com/press-release/l3-re ... -x-program

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Manish_P » 06 Sep 2018 16:47

brar_w wrote:You would also need a UAV on the other side that has the same data-link and interoperability with the AH-64.


True. The Predators are coming...

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby chetak » 06 Sep 2018 17:20

ashthor wrote:Could be only for US made equipment's.



Our own interoperability is affected and constrained because, say for example, ASW data from the P8I is comcassa contaminated and it may not be easy to pass it on to an Indian Naval non comcassa ASW platform for operational exploitation because the encrypted data format may not be suitable for use or it may take a long time to decrypt, if at all possible.

This restricts the use of the P8I completely. All our assets are similarly affected.

No point in saying "switch it off" because one never knows what else maybe radiating and compromising positional data of the platform itself.

This puts the Indian forces in the gungadin mode.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby SaiK » 06 Sep 2018 17:29

There is no such thing like - long time to decrypt - unless you are eavesdropping and hacking. Asynchronous encryption will have public key shared and the original equipment or source will have the keystore.

Suitability is after decryption.. and no rules or laws say how you use that data. IMHO, we still have the operational risk of sharing data especially when we speak about open mil standard bus like 1553 etc.

If I can get connected I can share. The decision to share or stealing data is a diff matter.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby fanne » 06 Sep 2018 17:38

some news portal are reporting that we have signed CASTAA, true?

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Trikaal » 06 Sep 2018 17:40

No, I think it is scheduled for signing tomorrow.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby arshyam » 06 Sep 2018 17:50


What does this even mean? Go cry to mummy? Comms are real-time things, going to court after the fact will be of no use. Assuming that there is a court that can enforce something here.

We have sold out our interests for sure, question is, by how much? That's what the fine print will reveal.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Philip » 06 Sep 2018 18:30

Signed the accord, but the fine print is what matters.Whatever the safety provisions, it is bound to p*ss off the Chins and causc concern with the Russians as do much of our hardware is of Ru origin.Will their systems be compromised?

Another media report said that we may sign similar agreements with Russia, France, etc., so that there's a level playing field and it will help us with their defence systems in service.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby nvishal » 06 Sep 2018 18:35

Logistics and communications agreement has already opened a pandoras box. The russians too have sent their drafts.

India, Russia to sign military logistics agreement in October
Under a logistics agreement, military facilities in partner countries can be used for refuelling of aircraft and ships, repair, maintenance, replenishment of provisions and as resting and transit points for soldiers.

Similar agreements have been made with states in south east asia. The australians have also sent a logistics draft to india.
Since then, India has signed similar agreements with France, Oman, Philippines, Singapore and Indonesia to use the Sabang port.

Australia is also keen to have a similar logistics facility in place with India and has sent a draft agreement.

The russians will now follow up with a communications agreement with india

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Zynda » 06 Sep 2018 20:46

arshyam wrote:

What does this even mean? Go cry to mummy? Comms are real-time things, going to court after the fact will be of no use. Assuming that there is a court that can enforce something here.

We have sold out our interests for sure, question is, by how much? That's what the fine print will reveal.

Will the fine print be available for public consumption? I don't think GoI is mandated to put out such details. Is 6 months enough for us to get a back up system up in place so that at least platform usage continuity is maintained? I am not gungho about this agreement signing as well. Not sure what GoI is seeing to sign a treaty which per available public info seems restrictive.

Some comments seem to allude greater sharing of intel & some EW gear from Massa...the quality of both which India feels like will a quantum jump compared to current capabilities.


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