CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2018 00:12

CM, I don't think such subtlety exists in US now. Lets discuss political aspects in the Strat Forum.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby kit » 30 Oct 2018 01:28

Austin wrote:India will pay for the S-400 systems in rubles or rupees.

https://www.interfax.ru/world/634587?utm_source=top


Should be great for us , No need to spend forex ....with rouble rupee arrangement here to stay India buy from Russia will only increase



now if only India produced all those civilian electronic stuff and machinery Russia imports from China

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 01 Nov 2018 04:12

Countering CAATSA: How India can avoid American arm twisting
https://www.businesstoday.in/opinion/co ... 86653.html

By Rakesh Krishnan Simha, October 26, 2018

In its endless obsession with bringing the Russian economy to its knees, the United States has deployed its latest weapon. CAATSA - or the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act - allows the US to punish Moscow's military partners on the basis that their business dealings violate American law. As the largest user and buyer of Russian weapons, India is vulnerable to Section 231 of the new law, which imposes sanctions on individuals and countries that deal with Russia's intelligence and defence sectors. Days after India inked a $5.4 billion deal with Russia to buy the S-400 missile defence system, US President Donald Trump said India would "soon find out" whether the US was going to slap punitive sanctions. Asked when, he replied: "You will see. Sooner than you think." However, Trump's threats lacked the sting that was once typical of American presidents who looked at India through Cold War tinted lenses. Being a businessman, he's always looking for a deal. Soon enough, US officials are believed to have approached Defence Minister N. Sitharaman with an offer - New Delhi could avoid sanctions if it agrees to buy the F-16 fighter as a quid pro quo.

Catch-22 for India

Because CAATSA is an American law that prevents global free trade, it is patently illegal and can be challenged. Nevertheless, if enforced it could choke the supply of weapons from Russia and blow a gaping hole in India's war fighting capability. It will also earn India considerable hostility in Moscow and drive the Russians closer to Pakistan and China, creating a different set of complications. Secondly, any American interference in India's fiercely independent defence procurement policies will create a backlash in India and torpedo the growing strategic and defence partnership between New Delhi and Washington. India could thus end up in a Catch-22 situation in which it loses either way - whether the country abides by CAATSA or not. Sanctions under CAATSA would be triggered once Delhi makes a payment for the Russian equipment. The sanctions include blocking of licences and permissions for a US entity to export a significantly large number of items to India. The restrictions on this front would include any arms sale or the transfer of nuclear equipment or technology.

What's At Stake?

Not even the most optimistic American hawks are expecting India to walk away from Russia immediately. As one of the biggest customers of the Russian armaments industry, India will have tremendous difficulty scaling down its ties with Moscow. More than 70 per cent of the weapons fielded by India's armed forces and 60 per cent of the country's defence imports are of Russian origin. Significant weapons deals such as the $6 billion Sukhoi Super 30 upgrade, the $5.4 billion S-400 deal, highly successful projects such as the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, and secret collaboration in the area of nuclear powered submarines, miniature nuclear reactors and aircraft carriers, all point to the deep defence ties between Moscow and New Delhi dating back over 50 years. In this backdrop, nobody expects India to abandon its defence ties with Russia, even if economic and people to people ties have cooled considerably.

The assessment is also shared by the Americans. The strain CAATSA could place on the resurgent India-US relationship was in focus at a hearing of the US Senate Armed Services Committee in March 2018. Admiral Harry Harris, the former commander of the US Pacific Command (now IndoPaCom), said: "Seventy per cent of their military hardware is Russian in origin. You can't expect India to go cold turkey on that. I think we ought to look at ways to have a glide path, so that we can continue to trade in arms within India." His comments were made in the context of US Secretary of Defence James Mattis seeking exemptions from Section 231 for a number of US partners and allies. India is believed to be part of this list.

The general consensus in the US is that both houses of Congress would have to consider ways to give a waiver to India. The main reason why the US is going easy on India - at least for the moment - is that Washington and New Delhi are in the process of working out multiple nuclear power plant and arms sale projects. As Admiral Harris remarked, India is "a key partner and a great strategic opportunity". Translation: India has deep pockets and the US need the money to keep its factories running. Pissing off India isn't good politics. Simply put, applying CAATSA against India could put the US foreign policy and defence establishments in a bind and slow down their expanding cooperation with India.

How can India respond?

India isn't Saudi Arabia or Britain that the US can push around; it is poised to be the world's third largest economy. Due to India's large market and manpower, it is the US that needs India more than the other way round. Instead of getting into a heated diplomatic scrap, India should explore ways to sidestep CAATSA's punitive measures in a number of ways.

1. In the immediate term, one way to avoid secondary sanctions would be if the US determines that India is reducing its dependence on Russian arms. On paper at least it appears so - according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, "Russian hardware represented 62 per cent of the country's total weapons imports during the past five years, compared with 79 per cent in 2008-2012."

2. India may seek an official declaration from the US, specifying that anti-Russian measures would not be used against Indian companies.

3. India should enact its own legislation which declares that decisions based on extraterritorial foreign laws that prevent free trade are unlawful and therefore not applicable to it.

4. New Delhi can complain at the World Trade Organization and threaten counter sanctions to protect its legitimate interests.

5. India's leverage as the world's second largest weapons importer needs to be communicated clearly to the Americans because clearly they keep forgetting this fact. Prime Minister Narendra Modi has an ambitious $250 billion plan to modernise India's military and a hefty chunk of that amount will go to buy advanced weapons. The US - which has been the biggest beneficiary of India's arms diversification programme in the past two decades - will end up as the biggest loser if it slaps sanctions.

Sanctions: Silver Lining

In 1992 when India was facing difficulties in procuring Russian spares for its defence forces, Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao dispatched Foreign Secretary Mani Dixit on a fact-finding mission to Moscow. However, the new Russian Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev refused to meet Dixit. The atmosphere was further aggravated by Kozyrev's statement that henceforth Moscow would have an "equidistant" policy in relations with India and Pakistan and that Russia would "stop looking at Pakistan through Indian goggles". This new stance was known as the Kozyrev Doctrine.

It was this diplomatic snub that forced Rao to steer India towards the West and kickstart diversification - a process that has continued to this day. The moral of the story is that the Kozyrev Doctrine may have been a stab in the back by a trusted friend but it opened India's eyes to the dangers of dependence on one country for critical defence supplies. India has since stepped up the pace of both diversification and Make in India, resulting in impressive gains on both fronts. However, the pace of indigenisation hasn't been enough as the defence forces continue to depend on imports of advanced weapons.

Similarly, CAATSA could be the much needed wakeup call India needs to fast-track Make in India. For, diversification has its limits. Even if India decides to spread its imports evenly between Russia, the US, Israel and Europe, the reality is that all four are interlinked. For instance, Israel is touted as a reliable arms supplier and also a country with shared strategic interests. However, a number of Israeli weapons systems such as the Green Pine radar incorporate American technology at some level. This gives the US leverage against Israel, which may be arm twisted to apply sanctions on India. Although Tel Aviv has always stood by India during wars, its future stance cannot be predicted with certainty. By fast tracking indigenisation, India can ensure self-sufficiency in defence and become immune from sanctions conjured out of thin air by policy wonks in the US State Department.

Changing Winds

New geopolitical developments are also in India's favour. With the US creating a new Indian Ocean-Pacific Ocean command (the aforementioned IndoPaCom) to take on China's growing naval power, Washington needs India as a strategic partner. The new command replaces the Pacific Command, indicating the importance of having a larger US naval presence in the Indian Ocean. While Japan and Australia are the lynchpins of the American plan to contain China in the Pacific, in the Indian Ocean it is India that is the key to cornering the dragon. New Delhi should use this leverage to squeeze all the waivers it can to nullify CAATSA. If India plays its cards right, America's brand new weapon could simply fizzle out.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 01 Nov 2018 04:16

How India's Modi Chose Moscow's S-400 Missiles, Defied Trump and Spurned Israel
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.pre ... -1.6577325

Dated - October 24, 2018

By Shrenik Rao - A fellow at the University of Oxford's Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism and a graduate of the London School of Economics, Shrenik Rao is a digital entrepreneur and filmmaker. Rao revived the Madras Courier, a 232-year-old newspaper, as a digital publication of which he is the editor-in-chief.

To counter China's growing influence in the Indo-Pacific region, the U.S. needs India as much as India needs the U.S.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 01 Nov 2018 04:19

US likely to give waiver to India's S-400 missile deal after some bilateral turbulence: Experts
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 404902.cms

By Rajat Pandit, Dated - October 28, 2018

But the jury is still out. The presidential waiver for the S-400 deal, if and when it's granted, will come with caveats, say experts. One, the Trump administration will need a transactional quid pro quo in terms of a major Indian defence deal for the US. Two, India will have to visibly demonstrate a strategic decision to progressively reduce its dependence on Russian weapon systems. Three, if India goes in for another big arms deal with Russia, like the impending lease of a second Akula-class nuclear-powered submarine for over $2 billion, it will further muddy the waters. "Repeated waivers will be tough," said an expert.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby ramana » 01 Nov 2018 05:15

All these massa poodles are make soothing noises after the threats made before the deal was inked.


In TOI the threat is still there in red! And the pro quid quo demand

There is something sinister in that which makes them sell unwanted planes to India.

Akula is on its way.


Rakesh,
Put a google map from east of Africa to japan and post it here.
Will point out whats happening.

And home work read up Mahan.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Prasad » 01 Nov 2018 11:30

del.
Thanks Trikaal
Last edited by Prasad on 01 Nov 2018 19:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Trikaal » 01 Nov 2018 15:23

Prasad wrote:Wow that Rakesh Simha article. Not an ounce of shame! "Please don't sanction ud because we are going to buy more stuff from you" with some bluster thrown in. Not one word about making things on our own and instead advocating lurching from one side to another learning nothing from the very Russian example he quotes. Talk about a lack of independent thought.

Umm, did u not read the article? More specifically under the sub-heading 'Sanctions:Silver lining'? He talks about exactly that!

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby SaiK » 02 Nov 2018 01:07

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201811 ... lications/

How Ruble purchase goes orthogonal to CAATSA? any pointers here?

---
x-posting in "understanding maasa" dhaaga

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 03 Nov 2018 11:53

Rupee-Ruble trade is a very positive thing not just limited to Defence purchase but even for general trade. We used to have Rupee-Ruble trade back then with SU and our two way trade was very high.

Using USD or for that matter any intermediate currency is a big bottle neck considering India and Russia can have a high trade volume with fully closed cycle trade and Indian Economy growing at 7 % YOY this trend will get better for both parties.

Removing the constrains of USD would also mean both parties can trade more and trade freely

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Viv S » 03 Nov 2018 22:42

SaiK wrote:https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201811011069424164-s400s-for-india-in-rubles-implications/

How Ruble purchase goes orthogonal to CAATSA? any pointers here?

The Rupee-Ruble system is a means of bypassing US sanctions (and the SWIFT system) on Rosoboronexport, and enabling payments for the S-400 to be made.

Its workable for limited amounts but as a permanent trading system it has serious limitations for the simply reason that the rupee, being an inflationary currency (which is actually a good thing for a developing country like India), cannot serve as a long term repository of value.

Simply put, Russia is a net exporter of goods to India to the tune of $6-7 billion annually (primarily minerals & weapons) and whatever proportion of that is held in rupees, will shrink in real terms by maybe 3-4% annually (depending on currency movements).

One way around that is for Russia to invest that sum back in India, either through financial instruments (like gilt-edged/sovereign bonds), or FDI. Another is to boost imports from India. The potential for FDI is limited by the lack of commercial interaction between the two countries while boosting imports is difficult for similar reasons. Bonds are fine but there's a limit to how much debt the GoI is willing to issue and how much is available on the open market.

Valuations in trade in any case will continue to be benchmarked against the USD.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby kit » 06 Nov 2018 22:18

Rakesh wrote:US likely to give waiver to India's S-400 missile deal after some bilateral turbulence: Experts
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 404902.cms

By Rajat Pandit, Dated - October 28, 2018

But the jury is still out. The presidential waiver for the S-400 deal, if and when it's granted, will come with caveats, say experts. One, the Trump administration will need a transactional quid pro quo in terms of a major Indian defence deal for the US. Two, India will have to visibly demonstrate a strategic decision to progressively reduce its dependence on Russian weapon systems. Three, if India goes in for another big arms deal with Russia, like the impending lease of a second Akula-class nuclear-powered submarine for over $2 billion, it will further muddy the waters. "Repeated waivers will be tough," said an expert.


dont think Trump will be around by that time :mrgreen:

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Trikaal » 07 Nov 2018 00:53

Statements like "Repeated waivers will be tough to obtain" are self-defeating imo. The onus of providing a waiver is on US. This is a US law and the US better find ways of circumventing their own law if they want access to the second biggest market in the world. These statements are part of US propaganda and psychological warfare where they force us to make concessions for something which is our right.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 07 Nov 2018 12:11

Yes rightly said , this is US internal law they have to worry about how to give us concession and not us , They are going to loose Indian Arms market if they dont and not us , India holds the High Card in this game which forces US to give concession with verbal threats but they dont have much choice...Suck it or Leave it !

As far as Rupee-Ruble trade , the Central Bank of both countries will work on factors like Inflation , how Rupee/Ruble pegs against basket of Reserve Currency ( not just USD ) and will adjust the payment either quarterly,half yearly or yearly. There are other options too like using other reserve currency in Trade Euro , Yuan , Yen etc

But Rupee-Ruble Bilateral Trade is good for both the countries as India is a fast growing market and Russia is the largest natural exporter , Works out best for both , Something we used to do with SU and India trade.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 08 Nov 2018 11:11

....
Last edited by Rakesh on 08 Nov 2018 19:17, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: This article has already been posted above.

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Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Postby Peregrine » 05 Dec 2018 02:46

We will work everything out: Mattis on India's purchase of S-400 defence systems – PTI

WASHINGTON: Defence secretary James Mattis has expressed confidence that India and the US would be able to resolve all issues related to India's purchase of the S-400 air defence systems + from Russia that could draw possible US sanctions.

India risked the threat of US sanctions when it agreed in October to a $5 billion deal to buy Russian missile systems.

India's purchase is subject to potential US sanctions under the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which deals primarily with countries having "significant transactions" with Russia, North Korea or Iran.

"We will work everything out. Trust me," Mattis told reporters on Monday as a journalist asked the visiting defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman about the missile deal and the possibility of US sanctions.

India needs a presidential waiver to get around the punitive CAATSA sanctions.

"We'll work all this forward. This is the normal collaboration and consultation that we have with each other," Mattis said in response to a similar question.

"India has been spent many, many years in its non-aligned status, and it has drawn a lot of weapons from Russia," Mattis told reporters at the Pentagon ahead of Sitharaman's arrival on Monday.

Russia's S-400 system, a mobile long-range surface-to-air missile system, made its debut on the world stage in 2007. The platform rivals Lockheed Martin's THAAD, or terminal high altitude area defense, system and Raytheon's Patriot system.

S-400 is known as Russia's most advanced long-range surface-to-air missile defence system.

China was the first foreign buyer to seal a government-to-government deal with Russia in 2014 to procure the lethal missile system. Moscow has already started delivery of an undisclosed number of the S-400 missile systems to Beijing.

Cheers Image

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Mort Walker » 05 Dec 2018 09:20

^^^Unkil is licking its chops to see under the hood of the S-400 when India and Turkey gets it. It is not a question of if, but a question of when and that will be when unkil, who's vast MIC resources, shall develop effective countermeasures.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Karan M » 05 Dec 2018 09:27

There is no evidence that India will expose anything regarding the S-4XX to Unkil or any other nation.

The US has in fact gone to significant lengths to prevent its export to Turkey or to India.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Mort Walker » 05 Dec 2018 09:56

Karan M wrote:There is no evidence that India will expose anything regarding the S-4XX to Unkil or any other nation.

The US has in fact gone to significant lengths to prevent its export to Turkey or to India.


The GoI will not, but individuals are a different story. Unkil has to protect its MIC, but if that doesn't work....

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Karan M » 05 Dec 2018 11:19

It would be ludicrous to to imply that Indian service members or otherwise will compromise the S-400 or any other asset.

If Indian service members and civilians can maintain the sanctity of Su-30 and Indian strategic assets for so long, they will equally ringfence the S-400. Rest assured on that front.

Which is exactly why Unkil is so eager to prevent these systems for entering into service. They know how hard and expensive it is to put expansive countermeasures in place and espionage is anything but guaranteed.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2018 08:29

Our new found relationship with Amreeka is not going smoothly. Honeymoon is over, reality has set in. This is like marriage onlee :lol: And with Defense Secretary Mattis resigning today, their is a lot of political turmoil in Washington. This folks, is India's strategic partner vis-a-viv China.

Watch how few will spin this and blame India for this downward spiral. We purchased S-400, so it is India's fault. We are humming-hawing on American fighter aircraft production, so it is India's fault. We are too narrow minded to see the value of the strategic partnership with Amreeka! Shame, Shame! Tauba, Tauba!

Pentagon Moves India Office Out, Reduces Manpower
https://epaper.timesgroup.com/Olive/ODN ... mode=text#

If India is an important part of the new Indo-Pacific strategy of the United States, why has the Pentagon moved the India office out of the iconic building to a secondary address? Not only has the India Rapid Reaction Cell, which was launched with much fanfare in 2015, been shunted out of the Pentagon, its strength has reportedly been reduced from six officers to just two. It doesn’t make sense if the idea is to strengthen the defence partnership and make it a crucial to the future of a “free and open Indo-Pacific”. The downgrade is significant – from being right next door to the US defence secretary, the India office is now housed in a largely administrative building six miles away. The move was made on Nov. 1, according to insiders. No one seems to have protested or questioned the decision. Is that because there isn’t a high-level official willing to push the cause and fight the necessary bureaucratic battles? Or did no one of consequence notice as office managers juggled the desks around? Or is it because the dissatisfaction with the larger relationship – trade issues, India’s over compensation for other partners — beginning to infect the defence relationship?

The India cell had momentum when it was born, even a certain cache, I was told, with officers lining up to join. Just as in the State Department in the mid-2000s when the India desk became a coveted place to work. Above all, in the vast bureaucracy that is the Pentagon, the India cell signalled New Delhi’s importance as a defence partner and a major buyer of US equipment. Keith Webster, director of Pentagon’s office of international cooperation, led the team as it worked on all ongoing initiatives, especially those under the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI). The idea was to ramp up the “operational tempo,” he had said then. Webster was deeply knowledgeable about India’s complexities. He was also patient but most importantly, he enjoyed the complete support of Ash Carter, the former defence secretary and Frank Kendall, the under secretary of defence. The Carter-Kendall-Webster trio worked seamlessly and was effective in pushing the India relationship forward. It was Carter’s idea to create the first ever country specific cell to focus the mind and overcome the usual bureaucratic paralysis that can stymie the best of intentions.

Carter helped change Pentagon’s mindset on technology transfer to India, shortened the interminable review process and removed India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation from the “entities list” to allow cooperation. Carter, Kendall and Webster are all gone and it seems the India cell become an orphan no senior official wanted to embrace. To be sure, defence secretary Jim Mattis has been extremely vocal and positive on India but it seems after him there is no senior management person to push the whole panoply of initiatives. Mattis has tried hard to shield India from the dreaded sanctions law called CAATSA by lobbying for a waiver from the US Congress. He was warm and effusive as he welcomed defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman last week, and all but suggested India won’t come under sanctions for signing the S-400 deal with Russia.

So dedicated was he to ensuring the success of Sitharaman’s first visit, he reportedly arrived a full half hour early at the Smithsonian’s Freer and Sackler Gallery where he was hosting a dinner for her complete with a military band. Mattis, widely respected in India, has a lot on his plate and who knows how long he will stay given the constant churn in this administration. He is believed to have a contentious relationship with John Bolton, the national security adviser. What about the successors of Kendall and Webster? They are — Ellen Lord is under secretary for acquisitions, and Tina Kaidanow, director for international cooperation.

Kaidanow retired from the State Department as the head the political-military bureau and was key on arms transfer issues. Lord’s background may hold some clues on the bureaucratic disinterest in the India cell. Before joining the Pentagon, she was president and CEO of Textron Systems, a major defence contractor and maker of Bell helicopters. Textron was fined $300,000 by the Indian defence ministry earlier this year for failing to meet the tough offset commitments on a $257-million deal to supply precision guided cluster bombs to the Indian Air Force. Textron decided to wind down its operations in India. With such “direct” India experience and the mandate to sell more and more weapons, Lord must be working hard to gin up enthusiasm.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 22 Dec 2018 10:20

Defence Secretary James Mattis’ exit leaves India exposed in Washington
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/12/ ... -exit.html

Over the preceding decade, the US has become India’s biggest defence supplier, logging $15 billion in sales of C-17 Globemaster III and C-130J Super Hercules transporters, P-8I Poseidon maritime surveillance aircraft, CH-47F Chinook heavy lift choppers and AH-64E Apache attack helicopters. Now Washington is pushing for another $10 billion worth of sales of 114 F-16 Block 70 fighters, 57 F/A-18E/F Super Hornet fighters and 22 Sea Guardian drones.

So now Ajai Shukla has already made up his mind on which OEM should win the IAF contest for 110 fighters and then sheepishly puts the onus on Washington. Why deny Boeing a chance at 110 fighters for the IAF? :) And in the same vein who should win the naval fighter contest as well.

For a person who criticized the Prime Minister in unilaterally changing the Rafale deal from 126 fighters to 36 fighters, this is an amazing about face! What ever happened to the DPP process that he so eagerly quotes from? Can the IAF decide please?

He has already decided on the cost also - only $10 billion for 110 F-16 Block 70s, 57 F-18E/F Block IIIs and 22 Sea Guardian drones. In which fairly tale world does he live in? I would love to know how he came to this hilariously low ball figure.

With Mattis lobbying vigorously for India, the US Congress legislated a waiver from CAATSA. Mattis strongly supported New Delhi’s argument that India’s large arsenal of Russian weaponry did not allow it to make a clean break.

Relying on a stable American foreign policy is not a cheque India can cash at the bank. That cheque’s bounces from time to time and it’s intrinsic value changes from one Adminstration to the next.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby arshyam » 22 Dec 2018 12:11

This thread amply demonstrates why any talk of stretegeric paartnersheep is all hawa onlee. And hopefully serves as a cautionary tale for future pappi-jhappi with some other US admin.

I'd once again repeat Kissinger's maxim: "to be America's enemy is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal". We have so far just avoided the latter eventuality, and hopefully stay that way.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Chinmay » 22 Dec 2018 12:34

Rakesh saar, if we are getting 110 F-16s, 57 F18s and 22 Sea Guardians for 10 billion, I would sign the cheque tomorrow :lol: :lol: :lol:


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