CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

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Trikaal
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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Trikaal » 05 Aug 2018 13:56

Viv S wrote:My point exactly. The Indian side is clearly alive to all possible issues with the COMCASA and they're working on those issues. They didn't buckle when it came to previous agreements, they didn't buckle when it came to the S-400 deal, they didn't buckle when it came to retaliatory tariffs against US exports. I don't see why they'd buckle when it comes to ring-fencing sovereign areas from this deal.

I've never denied that there are some very real very pertinent concerns about the pact. My only question is - how do we know that those concerns cannot be or will not be addressed when they hammer out the final draft of the document this week?

Because we have already seen the preferred solution by Indian side. The Indian side is asking for written assurances, something that I don't believe is sufficient. If their NSA is willing to lie under oath to their senate about snooping on their own citizens, then how much should I believe a piece of paper that they sign? Also, as of now they are not even signing that piece of paper. Which is why I am advocating scrapping this discussion completely. I cannot see any assurance they can give that will make signing this document worthwhile.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby kshirin » 05 Aug 2018 16:10

About ring fencing, it set off a train of thought. I will draw attention again to a less discussed part of the DDR article posted some days ago -

Has anyone gone into the implications of "ring-fencing" one part of the Indian military from the rest? Will it not create inexorable pressures to adopt uniform protocols, equipment, doctrines, etc. etc. throughout the armed forces ecosystem, putting paid to among other things - indigenous defence production? And has anyone read the Golden Sentry provisions, they are really elaborate. One member of the Armed Forces told me that is what worries him the most.

There should be an open discussion on these issues, so that concerns are allayed and a via media arrived at.

COMCASA – Should India Sign?
http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/01/26/comcasa-should-india-sign/

"COMCASA may also increase pressure on India to source all of its COMSEC equipment from US vendors in the future.
Since communication devices and links currently in use with Indian Forces cannot interact with US-provided systems, it implies that any attempt to establish interoperability between a part of India’s inventory and participating US forces could actually lead to reduced ‘intra-operability’ within India’s own military.
This is on account of the fact that COMCASA-covered equipment/platforms will become ‘incompatible’ with the rest of India’s inventory. This could lead to calls to ‘overhaul’ the Indian military’s entire network to COMCASA-compliant standards through wholesale import of US systems.
Short of which India would have to willfully acquiesce to the creation of a divide in its inventory, thereby reducing the flexibility of field commanders to deploy available resources during action.

Obviously, neither prospect is a particularly happy one for Indian military planners. The fact that COMCASA could lead to the secrecy of tactical doctrines getting compromised besides imposing greater complexity costs on India’s communication systems demands that a detailed study of the ground realities and practical implications of signing COMCASA be made prior to deciding on a course of action."

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Haridas » 05 Aug 2018 20:51

Trikaal wrote:Because we have already seen the preferred solution by Indian side. The Indian side is asking for written assurances, something that I don't believe is sufficient. If their NSA is willing to lie under oath to their senate about snooping on their own citizens, then how much should I believe a piece of paper that they sign? Also, as of now they are not even signing that piece of paper. Which is why I am advocating scrapping this discussion completely. I cannot see any assurance they can give that will make signing this document worthwhile.

Bulls eye. Military options must always be conservative on assuming trustworthiness of potential challange or a known wiely fox. Chacha is both.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Haridas » 05 Aug 2018 21:07

nvishal wrote:^ The common BJP worker does not know or understand what realpolitiks is. Many senior members on this forum are patriots and subscribe to realpolitiks in some form or the other but the actual workers in the BJP are much different than us. This is something that is difficult to acknowledge.

MMS was probably convinced that the US nuke deal would get us into the NSG. After all these years, I think he has sobered up and has realised that the Americans took him for a ride.

Man Mohan Singh was as sober as a dead fish when he was proxy PM. A dead fish can't be any more sober then being dead.
MMS will go down as Jai chand in history who helped destroyed Indian sovereignty for few pieces of silver.

JMT.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Austin » 05 Aug 2018 22:44

I can just imagine a situation where our P-8I is doing ASW ex with Indian ssn and Ssbn and the Ciso certified encrypted data link is communicating with ships and land asset via satcom and USN assets near by are snooping on the communication , now they will see the same picture as IN sees it in real or near real time all the submarine signatures and then known to them as much to IN.

Like it or not either some one will compromise our core asset by signing to such a deal

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Aug 2018 09:41

Would it not be possible to use a separate comm link for operations they want to hide by using non US assets like the akula, arihant in combination with herons, ships, mays etc? Yes it will probably be expensive but india will probably use more Russki or Israeli and Desi assets for many missions where it doesn't want any snooping. I'm afraid all US maal such as guardians, p8s etc will be used in only those cases where there is no harm in sharing info.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby kshirin » 06 Aug 2018 10:56


Trikaal
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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Trikaal » 06 Aug 2018 12:27

^NASAMS is not a replacement of AAD but that of Akash/Akash-NG. NASAMS works against low altitude fighters/drones/rockets while AAD is for ballistic missiles.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby kit » 06 Aug 2018 13:21

Trikaal wrote:^NASAMS is not a replacement of AAD but that of Akash/Akash-NG. NASAMS works against low altitude fighters/drones/rockets while AAD is for ballistic missiles.


That's right. NASAMS deals with fighter jets cruise missiles drones . PAD/AAD deals with ballistic missiles at short /medium ranges.S400 MID AND LONG ranges for ballistic missiles.

Now we all know why India did not choose the short range S400 missiles but only the long range and extreme range ones

All of these overlap and creates an almost impregnable defence shield.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Austin » 06 Aug 2018 15:25

Cain Marko wrote:Would it not be possible to use a separate comm link for operations they want to hide by using non US assets like the akula, arihant in combination with herons, ships, mays etc? Yes it will probably be expensive but india will probably use more Russki or Israeli and Desi assets for many missions where it doesn't want any snooping. I'm afraid all US maal such as guardians, p8s etc will be used in only those cases where there is no harm in sharing info.


Why would you even want to do that , As a thumb rule using any Hardware or Software encryption system from any country is a death warrant for us , We need to use our own Encryption system at hardware and software , DRDO can do that.

Once you try to use someones encryption you are at their mercy always , I would stay at arms length from any US Israel french or Russian system for encryption of our datalink , comms or any thing that uses encryption.

If US is going to extreme length to force us to sign the CISMO then there is good reason they think it will give them a good insight on our key systems we use , Those other system may not be using US equipment like a SSBN or SSN but the fact that P--8 would be used in joint exercise and interoperate with IN SSN and SSBN means what ever data P-8 gathers on our SSBN/SSN assets will be known to US including its signatures.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby ramana » 07 Aug 2018 00:12

Does anyone seen this NASAMS-II specs?
And $1B to protect only Delhi seems last ditch system. Is this evolved Patriot model for export?

In other thoughts looks very defensive to me. $1B for planes would be better spent.
Hope it's not more baksheesh to now Norway also for stopping conversion.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby nachiket » 07 Aug 2018 00:21

ramana wrote:Does anyone seen this NASAMS-II specs?
And $1B to protect only Delhi seems last ditch system. Is this evolved Patriot model for export?

In other thoughts looks very defensive to me. $1B for planes would be better spent.
Hope it's not more baksheesh to now Norway also for stopping conversion.

No NASAMS and Patriot are completely different systems. NASAMS has no ABM capability whatsoever. Its interceptor is basically ground-launched AMRAAM. Not very different from the Spyder-MR with Derby interceptor.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Karan M » 07 Aug 2018 00:48

I still don't see how a ground based radar, which is not mast mounted can deal with cruise missiles. I expect the IAF will be sneaky and put the NASAMS radar (it is sufficiently compact) on buildings for the same purpose, but the footprint will be limited. The radar has only 40km range.

kit wrote:
Trikaal wrote:^NASAMS is not a replacement of AAD but that of Akash/Akash-NG. NASAMS works against low altitude fighters/drones/rockets while AAD is for ballistic missiles.


That's right. NASAMS deals with fighter jets cruise missiles drones . PAD/AAD deals with ballistic missiles at short /medium ranges.S400 MID AND LONG ranges for ballistic missiles.

Now we all know why India did not choose the short range S400 missiles but only the long range and extreme range ones

All of these overlap and creates an almost impregnable defence shield.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Karan M » 07 Aug 2018 00:50

nachiket wrote:
ramana wrote:Does anyone seen this NASAMS-II specs?
And $1B to protect only Delhi seems last ditch system. Is this evolved Patriot model for export?

In other thoughts looks very defensive to me. $1B for planes would be better spent.
Hope it's not more baksheesh to now Norway also for stopping conversion.

No NASAMS and Patriot are completely different systems. NASAMS has no ABM capability whatsoever. Its interceptor is basically ground-launched AMRAAM. Not very different from the Spyder-MR with Derby interceptor.


If we get this, then the NASAMS-2 will be at least a decent system.
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/land ... ay-system/

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby V_Raman » 07 Aug 2018 00:59

IMO NASAMS II is the order to fend off Patriot vs S400. We can afford have one more system in addition to Akash - we need that many units of Akash style system. This also gives us more options hopefully - integrate Astra. Buy missiles for cross-purpose - AMRAAM, Harpoon for Jets that can be used on NASAMS. This is a system where tech transfer might be possible as well.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby ramana » 07 Aug 2018 01:12

Sounds like a marketing ploy.
AAMRAM guidance section and warhead on Evolved Sea Sparrow (which is itself a very old system) and launcher and radar.

And why this AON quietly approved in early July?
is the situation so bad that an air to air missile is fobbed off as a SAM to IAF?

Something is not right.
Its baksheesh or dire situation to guard against those Babur cruise missiles.
It's not PRC centric.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby nachiket » 07 Aug 2018 01:23

Karan M wrote:If we get this, then the NASAMS-2 will be at least a decent system.
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/land ... ay-system/

Sure. But with Spyder-MR, Akash (and NG in the pipieline) plus MR-SAM already getting inducted, did we need it?

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Karan M » 07 Aug 2018 01:38

We both know the answer to that. :)

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby V_Raman » 07 Aug 2018 05:57

I dont think NASAMS will get delivered so fast to fend of Baburs if there is a conflct in the short term. I believe it is baksheesh for getting S400 instead of patriot.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Viv S » 07 Aug 2018 14:23

Trikaal wrote:Because we have already seen the preferred solution by Indian side. The Indian side is asking for written assurances, something that I don't believe is sufficient.

You're basing that entirely on one article that gets something basic wrong i.e. who's signing the agreement (its not a 'senior military officer'). Also, what the report doesn't specify is what access the US will have under the pact. Are we talking about information shared in joint exercises, or encryption keys for domestic comms in wartime protocol?

Because if we run with the generalized inference that whatever the US knows can be passed onto the Pak-China combine, we should really cease military co-op because we've been engaging in some fairly high-end military exercises, particularly on the naval side, with both sides soaking up data, ship & sub signatures as well as classified ASW tactics.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Viv S » 07 Aug 2018 15:17

Austin wrote:I can just imagine a situation where our P-8I is doing ASW ex with Indian ssn and Ssbn and the Ciso certified encrypted data link is communicating with ships and land asset via satcom and USN assets near by are snooping on the communication , now they will see the same picture as IN sees it in real or near real time all the submarine signatures and then known to them as much to IN.

Why would they use the MIDS for ship-to-aircraft communications in a domestic exercise instead of the BEL's DataLink II module? A Link-16 module, if installed, should only be used by say.. IN P-8Is & USN P-8As to transmit & receive data about PLAN movements in an area, or during joint exercises.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Viv S » 07 Aug 2018 15:40

V_Raman wrote:IMO NASAMS II is the order to fend off Patriot vs S400. We can afford have one more system in addition to Akash - we need that many units of Akash style system. This also gives us more options hopefully - integrate Astra. Buy missiles for cross-purpose - AMRAAM, Harpoon for Jets that can be used on NASAMS. This is a system where tech transfer might be possible as well.

V_Raman wrote:I dont think NASAMS will get delivered so fast to fend of Baburs if there is a conflct in the short term. I believe it is baksheesh for getting S400 instead of patriot.

Doesn't explain why the NASAM.

If the Americans are to be paid off, why not order something that fills a lacuna in our force structure, like the S-70, RQ-4, or Mk48, or more P-8s for the IN, or E-7As or ELINT aircraft for the IAF?

Hell even if it must be a missile system for symbolic reasons, why buy a Norwegian system built with American components? Why not just go ahead and acquire a longer ranged US system like the Patriot or MEADS, or better still invest in the PAAC-4 and integrate with the Barak-8?

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Austin » 07 Aug 2018 16:03

Viv S wrote:
Austin wrote:I can just imagine a situation where our P-8I is doing ASW ex with Indian ssn and Ssbn and the Ciso certified encrypted data link is communicating with ships and land asset via satcom and USN assets near by are snooping on the communication , now they will see the same picture as IN sees it in real or near real time all the submarine signatures and then known to them as much to IN.

Why would they use the MIDS for ship-to-aircraft communications in a domestic exercise instead of the BEL's DataLink II module? A Link-16 module, if installed, should only be used by say.. IN P-8Is & USN P-8As to transmit & receive data about PLAN movements in an area, or during joint exercises.


More than data link if they use US encryption system that would be an issue and using dual data link like link 16 or Indian data link with its own set of encryption and integration may be feseable or not

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Trikaal » 07 Aug 2018 16:26

Viv S wrote:
Hell even if it must be a missile system for symbolic reasons, why buy a Norwegian system built with American components? Why not just go ahead and acquire a longer ranged US system like the Patriot or MEADS, or better still invest in the PAAC-4 and integrate with the Barak-8?

Could be because NASAMS is cheaper than Patriot system and co-development wasn't an offer. If the aim was to please Donald Trump, then that guy just cares about immediate payout and a co-development project won't quickly translate into jobs. On the other hand, NASAMS means more orders for American equipment manufacturers ergo more jobs(making america great again)

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Viv S » 07 Aug 2018 16:47

Austin wrote:More than data link if they use US encryption system that would be an issue and using dual data link like link 16 or Indian data link with its own set of encryption and integration may be feseable or not

The DL-II & ODL don't use US encryption systems. With respect to dual-modules, the Israelis are part of the Link 16 MNWG, while still developing and operating their own data-link, SDR & IFF systems. And as far as the hardware is concerned, in addition to the US (Viasat, DLS), MIDS modules are also produced by EuroMIDS.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Viv S » 07 Aug 2018 17:09

Trikaal wrote:Could be because NASAMS is cheaper than Patriot system and co-development wasn't an offer. If the aim was to please Donald Trump, then that guy just cares about immediate payout and a co-development project won't quickly translate into jobs. On the other hand, NASAMS means more orders for American equipment manufacturers ergo more jobs(making america great again)

Well the Patriot (& PAAC-4) offer the Stunner/Skyceptor as an option which is reportedly a great deal cheaper than most alternatives. And while its possible for the NASAMS open architecture to accommodate a local weapon like the QR-SAM and/or LR-SAM (the Norwegians have integrated the IRIS-T rather than the Aim-9X), I'm guessing the MoD & IAF will probably go with the simpler i.e. off-the-shelf solution.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Austin » 07 Aug 2018 17:55

Viv S wrote:
Austin wrote:More than data link if they use US encryption system that would be an issue and using dual data link like link 16 or Indian data link with its own set of encryption and integration may be feseable or not

The DL-II & ODL don't use US encryption systems. With respect to dual-modules, the Israelis are part of the Link 16 MNWG, while still developing and operating their own data-link, SDR & IFF systems. And as far as the hardware is concerned, in addition to the US (Viasat, DLS), MIDS modules are also produced by EuroMIDS.


The key question is loss of sensitive data , Israel having that system does not help us as Israel is treaty allay of US and same goes for Euro.

Catharsis of US coms equipment , datalink , encryption and replacing with Indian Designed and built is the only option to prevent getting eavesdropped.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Viv S » 07 Aug 2018 18:20

Austin wrote:The key question is loss of sensitive data , Israel having that system does not help us as Israel is treaty allay of US and same goes for Euro.

The key answer is that Indian data-links & comms are NOT being replaced by NATO-spec equipment, and Israel's example proves that it is possible to retain the former while gaining access to the latter.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby KrishnaK » 07 Aug 2018 23:15

Rakesh wrote: Oh my! Not the same old China threat narrative again.

Admiral Sunil Lanba threw that theory of "guess if US and/or Japan will intervene on India's behalf or the other way around" out the window, when he said that the Quad does not have a military angle to it. Also during Doklam, when the Chinese threat was real, the Chinese did nothing. They are more talk than action. The most they did was throw stones at our soldiers. So much for Dragon Fire. The situation is not as grave or serious, as you claim it is. The reality is we do not need the Americans as badly, as the Americans need India.
2017 version of the Malabar series of exercises saw 3 carriers exercising together with their fleets - must be gilli danda at sea, or is keeping good order at sea ?. China does not think of 3 of its largest competitors conducting annual naval exercises together as having no military angle. Admiral Lanba's statements have more to do with India's temporary detente with China. No different from the Indian army claiming it never wrote a note claiming the US would leak its secrets to Pakistan :).

Secondly, India will not intervene on America's behalf. Why should we anyway? Where are interests converge, we will assist. But we are not about to fight your wars. You can handle that yourself. And the reverse is true for India. In a future border conflict against China, I do not see America or Japan rushing to India's aid either. India will have to fight that all on her own. Even during Doklam, the Americans did squat and why should they anyway?Doklam was our issue and we dealt with it.
China's never claimed that it will intervene on Pakistan's behalf or vice-versa. The current Indian assessment is that India might be forced to fight a 2 front war. Given that it sees that threat as a real possibility, it's building up the capacity to fight a 2 front land war. Had that not been the case, those monies would have been spent elsewhere, maybe on its navy. India has aligned itself with the US, not allied. It hasn't given any security commitments and hasn't received any in return. That doesn't in anyway preclude the possibility of acting in concert if push came to the shove. Building up that capacity forces China to account for it, forcing it to spend monies it would have spent elsewhere.

And joining with America at the hip, will definitely plug that gap, with $21+ Trillion in debt and the Chinese owning a large portion of that debt. That is a fabulous strategy for India. America cannot stand up to China alone. They cannot risk a conflict with China. America is broke. They need countries like India, Japan, Australia and others to create an alliance to stand up to the Dragon. That is the real crux of the issue.

The King is Naked, but the King still wants to play King Maker.
The US built an alliance against the Soviets when its GDP was a full 40% of the worlds. Building alliances is the best option for democracies. US government debt is 21 trillion at around a 100% of its GDP, most of which is held locally AND is denominated in USD. China holds some 2 trillion of it, ~10%. One that it has very little option in, given that it needs to invest its hoard of USDs somewhere. Must be a pretty comfortable situation to have your competitor finance you. Guess what the situation is for India ? Guess who finds it costlier to finance its deficit ? Everyone's broke nowadays, however the US will find it far far cheaper to finance its deficit than India.

India & Japn needs the US as much if not more. If the US were to throw in the towel and retreat behind the vast distance of the Pacific (assuming such a thing were possible), the full brunt of China's power would be felt in the neighbourhood. There is no need to join with anyone at the hip - it is an excellent idea to build up as many options as possible however.


The National Defense Authorization Act of the fiscal year 2012 included a provision requiring the Secretary of Defense to conduct a "national security risk assessment of U.S. federal debt held by China." The Department issued its report in July 2012, stating that "attempting to use U.S. Treasury securities as a coercive tool would have limited effect and likely would do more harm to China than to the United States. As the threat is not credible and the effect would be limited even if carried out, it does not offer China deterrence options, whether in the diplomatic, military, or economic realms, and this would remain true both in peacetime and in scenarios of crisis or war."[57]
China buys US treasuries because it can't do anything else.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 07 Aug 2018 23:42

KrishnaK wrote:2017 version of the Malabar series of exercises saw 3 carriers exercising together with their fleets - must be gilli danda at sea, or is keeping good order at sea ?. China does not think of 3 of its largest competitors conducting annual naval exercises together as having no military angle. Admiral Lanba's statements have more to do with India's temporary detente with China. No different from the Indian army claiming it never wrote a note claiming the US would leak its secrets to Pakistan :).

Good observation, because it is both. Gilli Danda and Keeping Good Order @ Sea :)

And unlike the Indian Army note, the Admiral is on record having made that statement. It addition, India also purposefully removed Australia out of the 2018 Malabar Exercises. So much for the fantasy of the Quad. Even the Indian Admiral knows that in a future war, America will not come to India's aid.

India Keeps Australia Out of the Malabar Exercise -- Again
https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/india-k ... ise-again/

KrishnaK wrote:China's never claimed that it will intervene on Pakistan's behalf or vice-versa. The current Indian assessment is that India might be forced to fight a 2 front war. Given that it sees that threat as a real possibility, it's building up the capacity to fight a 2 front land war. Had that not been the case, those monies would have been spent elsewhere, maybe on its navy. India has aligned itself with the US, not allied. It hasn't given any security commitments and hasn't received any in return. That doesn't in anyway preclude the possibility of acting in concert if push came to the shove. Building up that capacity forces China to account for it, forcing it to spend monies it would have spent elsewhere.

Attacking PoK will invite a natural response from the Chinese, with all the billions the Chinese have invested in CPEC. Or for that matter, anywhere in Pakistan. A two front war is real for India, but America coming to India's aid - in that war - is an Aesop's Fable.

And with a GDP five times that of India's, I am sure they can afford to spend all over the map. We are the ones who have to play catch up, no? :)

And if the above is true, then perhaps America does not need alliances like the Quad. America does not need to convince us of interoperability.

KrishnaK wrote:India & Japn needs the US as much if not more. If the US were to throw in the towel and retreat behind the vast distance of the Pacific (assuming such a thing were possible), the full brunt of China's power would be felt in the neighbourhood. There is no need to join with anyone at the hip - it is an excellent idea to build up as many options as possible however.

:lol: I am sure we will feel the full brunt. The stone throwing at Doklam really hurt our feelings.

Perhaps next time, the Chinese will bring in catapults, boulders, spears and shields. That will really drive the point home.

The US will not throw in the towel in the region. They need to be there. Nice scare mongering tactic, but that is not going to work :)

This was the same argument put forth during the first MMRCA contest and the SEF contest. Rejection of American birds would result in cancellation of the Malabar Exercises, shutting down of the carrier working group and jet engine working group, India will have to face the Chinese all alone, etc. All nonsense onlee, because the reality is otherwise. US military platforms are being delivered and more are in the pipeline, the Malabar exercises are continuing with the US Navy, Yudh Abhyas exercises are continuing with the US Army, etc.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 08 Aug 2018 00:14

A very well known move quote from the movie, The Good Shepherd.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0343737/quotes

Valentin Mironov #2: Soviet power is a myth. Great show. There are no spare parts. Nothing is working, nothing, it's nothing but painted rust. But you need to keep the Russian myth alive to maintain your military industrial complex. Your system depends on Russian being perceived as a mortal threat. It's not a threat. It was never a threat. It will never be a threat. It's a rotted, bloated cow.

One cannot attribute all of the above to the Chinese, but the bolded part is definitely 100% true. America needs to keep the Chinese myth alive to maintain her military industrial complex. The American system depends on China being perceived as a mortal threat out to destroy them. The Soviet Union no longer exists. So how do you justify 10+ Gerald Ford Class aircraft carriers? China!! And then to make that military industrial complex thrive even more, sell arms to nations that China has bad relations with. Make them also believe that China is a mortal threat.

The Chinese are Coming! Run for the Damn Hills!
Oh wait, what do I see yonder? The stars & stripes flying so proud.
America has saved India from annihilation. On my!
Now let us all sing the Star Spangled Banner.
America saves the day. Yeeee hah!!!!


In fact the Chinese are like the Borg onlee (from Star Trek).

We are the Chinese. Lower your shields and surrender your ships.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.


Please. Go Scare Someone Else.

I even know the response I will receive from BRF's America Apologists.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby KrishnaK » 09 Aug 2018 01:19

Rakesh wrote:A very well known move quote from the movie, The Good Shepherd.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0343737/quotes

Valentin Mironov #2: Soviet power is a myth. Great show. There are no spare parts. Nothing is working, nothing, it's nothing but painted rust. But you need to keep the Russian myth alive to maintain your military industrial complex. Your system depends on Russian being perceived as a mortal threat. It's not a threat. It was never a threat. It will never be a threat. It's a rotted, bloated cow.

One cannot attribute all of the above to the Chinese, but the bolded part is definitely 100% true. America needs to keep the Chinese myth alive to maintain her military industrial complex. The American system depends on China being perceived as a mortal threat out to destroy them. The Soviet Union no longer exists. So how do you justify 10+ Gerald Ford Class aircraft carriers? China!! And then to make that military industrial complex thrive even more, sell arms to nations that China has bad relations with. Make them also believe that China is a mortal threat.


Movie quotes :rotfl:. It's Apple selling smartphones that's a trillion dollar company. Lockheed Martin, the world's largest arms seller is valued at 90 billion - less than 1/10th. Do look up the profitability of Facebook vs Lockheed Martin if you're interested in facts.

This argument wasn't close to being true even during the Cold War, the US spent ~5% of its GDP on defence and the Soviet Union spent ~30%. The likes of AT&T, Sony & Microsoft were the dominant companies back then.

Like China owns most of US debt and US is broke argument, your worldview doesn't seem to be verifiable with any real world metric (movie quotes don't count). This is why claims like India's buying arms from Norway to stop conversions come about. I guess we can stop arguing and watch India align closer with the US in ever more surprising ways to stop conversions from there.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Kakarat » 09 Aug 2018 02:02

KrishnaK wrote:
Rakesh wrote:A very well known move quote from the movie, The Good Shepherd.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0343737/quotes


One cannot attribute all of the above to the Chinese, but the bolded part is definitely 100% true. America needs to keep the Chinese myth alive to maintain her military industrial complex. The American system depends on China being perceived as a mortal threat out to destroy them. The Soviet Union no longer exists. So how do you justify 10+ Gerald Ford Class aircraft carriers? China!! And then to make that military industrial complex thrive even more, sell arms to nations that China has bad relations with. Make them also believe that China is a mortal threat.


Movie quotes :rotfl:. It's Apple selling smartphones that's a trillion dollar company. Lockheed Martin, the world's largest arms seller is valued at 90 billion - less than 1/10th. Do look up the profitability of Facebook vs Lockheed Martin if you're interested in facts.

This argument wasn't close to being true even during the Cold War, the US spent ~5% of its GDP on defence and the Soviet Union spent ~30%. The likes of AT&T, Sony & Microsoft were the dominant companies back then.

Like China owns most of US debt and US is broke argument, your worldview doesn't seem to be verifiable with any real world metric (movie quotes don't count). This is why claims like India's buying arms from Norway to stop conversions come about. I guess we can stop arguing and watch India align closer with the US in ever more surprising ways to stop conversions from there.


I think you have not understood his point, For the US to maintain its Military strength it needs military industrial complex, To maintain its military industrial complex it needs to spend a lot and to justify the huge spending it needs or at least show a strong enemy. Maintaining the military industrial complex is more important and selling arms is additional benefit. Its about power and not profit

Do you think if India does not have any enemy will we be spending anything in Defense research or maintain such a large Defense force?

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2018 02:10

So now we are going to fight the Chinese with iPhones and Facebook likes? :lol:

The Soviet Union was all bark and no bite. China is more or less the same. Doklam clearly proved that. Real world metrics fell flat in Doklam. The Chinese could do little, other than throw stones. For a country with a GDP 5 times that of India, we should have been a cake walk to defeat. What happened?

Like I said in my previous post. Perhaps next time, the Chinese will bring in catapults, boulders, spears and shields. That will really drive the point home. For all your claims that US equipment / strategic alignment is needed to defeat the Chinese, the reality is otherwise.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2018 02:24

Kakarat wrote:I think you have not understood his point...

Do not bother Kakarat :)

He cannot even answer one simple question (despite him making the claim!) ---> Since you brought up the point that signing CISMOA helps both parties enormously, please illustrate how CISMOA helps India. We are doing just fine with the American platforms we operate now without CISMOA. So how does CISMOA help India?

Remember Kakarat, the Chinese are so powerful that they can reach Delhi in a mere 48 hours.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7304&hilit=die+laughing

Only American platforms and agreements can stop the onlsaught :D

As I stated earlier, this was the same argument put forth during the first MMRCA contest and the SEF contest. Rejection of American birds would result in cancellation of the Malabar Exercises, shutting down of the carrier working group and jet engine working group, India will have to face the Chinese all alone, etc. All nonsense onlee, because the reality is otherwise. US military platforms are being delivered and more are in the pipeline, the Malabar exercises are continuing with the US Navy, Yudh Abhyas exercises are continuing with the US Army, etc.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby KrishnaK » 09 Aug 2018 07:59

Rakesh wrote:
Kakarat wrote:I think you have not understood his point...

Do not bother Kakarat :)

He cannot even answer one simple question (despite him making the claim!) ---> Since you brought up the point that signing CISMOA helps both parties enormously, please illustrate how CISMOA helps India. We are doing just fine with the American platforms we operate now without CISMOA. So how does CISMOA help India?


I have - China is a threat, one capable enough for its main opponents to shed any inhibitions of acting in concert militarily. The reason India's willing to consider the agreement is it increases India's choices and constrains China. You choose to believe otherwise, just like you chose to believe in the MIC's behind all this conspiracy theory.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2018 08:10

KrishnaK wrote:I have - China is a threat, one capable enough for its main opponents to shed any inhibitions of acting in concert militarily. The reason India's willing to consider the agreement is it increases India's choices and constrains China. You choose to believe otherwise, just like you chose to believe in the MIC's behind all this conspiracy theory.

So you basically have no clue as to how COMCASA enormously helps India. Bringing up China is laughable, because you have yet to prove how COMCASA helps India in any manner. Apart from China, do you have anything? :lol: Even the interoperability claim - because of China onlee! :lol: - has been thrown out the window.

But yet you continue reguritating the claim that China is a threat. Because basically what else do you have to rely on? You repeated the same thing in the SEF contest as well. Nothing happened. This despite the fact that;

1) Admiral Sunil Lanba has claimed that the Quad does not have a military angle. Even the good Admiral knows the reliability of the Quad in war. Come to think of it, the weakest link in the Quad - geopolitically - is the US onlee. Unreliable foreign policy. Not that we need the Americans to fight our battles. :wink:

2) Doklam was a whimper performance from the Chinese, this despite having a GDP 5 times that of India. We should have lost and that too quite badly. The Chinese should have walked all over us. But we ended up being victorious, without losing any territory.

Each time you bring up the China threat, the ground reality is otherwise. The Chinese are all bark and no bite.

The mighty Chinese (of which we have been led to believe - by yours truly - is an imminent threat) did this during Doklam. A video created by the 505th Video & Propoganda Battalion of the PLA;


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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2018 08:42

Oh my! The Chinese are so scary - that instead of a rethink :D - the Indian Govt is charging full steam ahead! After throwing cold water on the idea of the military Quad, now the Govt is actually rethinking - nice term! :) - of joining with open arms on the political Quad.

India not to join US-led counter to China’s BRI
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 300729.cms
07 August 2018

India has stayed away from a joint initiative launched by the United States, Japan and Australia to fund infrastructure projects to counterbalance China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) in the Indo-Pacific region. The decision not to join the US-led trilateral initiative, launched on July 30, is in keeping with India’s emphasis on multipolarity in the Indo Pacific region and non-bloc security architecture, said people aware of the matter.

So much for strategic alignment - not allied - with the United States :lol:

India continues to harbour serious reservations against the BRI and is keen to foster greater stability in the Indo-Pacific region, they said. But as Prime Minister Narendra Modi made it clear at the Shangri La dialogue in Singapore on June 1, India never viewed the region as “a strategy or as a club of limited members”. Earlier, during his informal summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Sochi, Modi emphasised on a non-bloc security.

The next round of the India Japan Australia trilateral is also scheduled this year and the Indo-US 2+2 dialogue in Delhi on September 6 would also focus on the Indo Pacific region, among other issues. The US may nudge India at the 2+2 dialogue on joining the trilateral infrastructure initiative. India will also hold a separate dialogue with Russia on the Indo Pacific region. India maintains that its approach in the Indo-Pacific region would remain inclusive and not hostile to any particular country.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby KrishnaK » 09 Aug 2018 09:00

Kakarat wrote:I think you have not understood his point, For the US to maintain its Military strength it needs military industrial complex, To maintain its military industrial complex it needs to spend a lot and to justify the huge spending it needs or at least show a strong enemy. Maintaining the military industrial complex is more important and selling arms is additional benefit. Its about power and not profit


What is the utility of this power ?

Either the US actually believed that there were powerful threats that required the MIC that was built up or they made it up knowing full well that the threats did not justify the size of their MIC. The thinking of the people that have wielded power in the US is not like the protocols of the elders of Zion. It is openly available - for example there's a treasure trove of archives of what Nixon and Kissinger said during the 1971 crisis with India. It was recorded verbatim and declassified. Across 70 years and 16 different governments it should be fairly easy to come up with proof that these people made up enemies for power, no ? Why resort to movie quotes ? There's a more believable explanation - military power is built up to hedge against insecurity. For a while now the US has been asking Europe to contribute more, so its own spending can go down. Europe just does not have the political will required to do that at this point.

Do you think if India does not have any enemy will we be spending anything in Defense research or maintain such a large Defense force
Precisely, there's no advantage to spending on defense, unless there's some benefit to be gained from it. In the case of India & the US that is security.

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Re: CAATSA .. An Oxymoron ?

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2018 09:11

Kakarat: For Your Reading Pleasure :)

The military-industrial complex is booming in Trump's America: Don Pittis
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/whiteh ... -1.4258762

"The military-industrial complex is alive and well," says Abelson. "It's one of the staples of the U.S. economy. But the issue is, if money is going into defence, what is it not going into?"


The U.S. Still Leans on the Military-Industrial Complex
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/busi ... mplex.html

That outlay of taxpayer money is concentrated in eight sectors of manufacturing, including ammunition, aircraft, guided missiles, shipbuilding and armored vehicles. Shut down production in those areas and factory production in America, measured as value added, would shrink 10 percent or more, according to Richard Aboulafia, a vice president of the Teal Group, a defense consulting firm.


How the Military Industrial Complex Controls America
https://www.globalresearch.ca/how-the-m ... ca/5633549

The foreign governments that are to be overthrown are not markets, but are instead targets. The bloodshed and misery go to those unfortunate lands. But if you control these corporations, then you need these invasions and occupations, and you certainly aren’t concerned about any of the victims, who (unlike those profits) are irrelevant to your business. In fact, to the exact contrary: killing people and destroying buildings etc., are what you sell — that’s what you (as a billionaire with a controlling interest in one of the 100 top contractors to the U.S. Government) are selling to your own government, and to all of the other governments that your country’s cooperative propaganda will characterize as being ‘enemies’ — Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, etc. — and definitely not as being ‘allies’, such as are being characterized these corporations’ foreign markets: Saudi Arabia, EU-NATO, Israel, etcetera. In fact, as regards your biggest foreign markets, they will be those ‘allies’; so, you (that is, the nation’s aristocracy, who own also the news-media etc.) defend them, and you want the U.S. military (the taxpayers and the troops) to support and defend them. It’s defending your market, even though you as the controlling owner of such a corporation aren’t paying the tab for it. The rest of the country is actually paying for all of it, so you’re “free-riding” the public, in this business. It’s the unique nature of the war-business, and a unique boon to its investors.


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