CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

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Philip
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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Philip » 18 Sep 2018 18:38

There is a point in Viv's assertation about Chin AD.Please take a hard look at the actual size of nations on a globe not the standard flat maps which show western states in disproportionate size..The US fits into the Sahara quite nicely, Africa ia an immrnse continent and the Chin and Ru landmasses are enormous.Even with their large numbers, the Chins will find sanitising their airspace from US aicraft an impossibility. They will use their S-400s to protect their most valued assets.
Secondly, according to Ru sources, their S-400s are inferior to those used by Ru ADs and what is being offered to India, later missile variants.

But coming back to CAATSA, how we are going to integrate US real-time intel data knto our systems , mostly of Ru origin is the big Q.
There will have to be separate intel loops with the twain never meetiing or interacting .If we arr going to receive the same tactical picture that a US warship is for dxample,given the aim of the to integraye yhe IN in particular into its cooperative engagement networking, then it will likewise receive what we are seeing on our consoles, giving the US an insight into the capability and intricacies of Rus and other nation's sensors that we may be using aboard our vessels, which usually feature a cocktail of eqpt. from both east and west along with desi.A late friend was an expert at such integration and developing our desi combat systems.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Viv S » 18 Sep 2018 21:46

Philip wrote:Secondly, according to Ru sources, their S-400s are inferior to those used by Ru ADs and what is being offered to India, later missile variants.

So you've said before. Its a bold claim. Please do post a source to go with that.

But coming back to CAATSA, how we are going to integrate US real-time intel data knto our systems , mostly of Ru origin is the big Q.

Russian comm equipment has almost been phased out. The IN is transitioning to the Data Link II (and the IAF to the ODL).

Russian sensors too have been generally replaced by Israeli & Indian alternatives. What remains is relatively old or innocuous - Fregat radars on the Talwar/Shivalik and the Oko on the Ka-31.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Karan M » 18 Sep 2018 22:02

I think that is a gross oversimplification.

ODL remains WIP with but a test deployment cleared recently. It was literally put to sleep under UPA and has been resuscitated but recently.

The only operational datalinks on IAF fighters are the Polyot ones on Su-30 MKI which allow up to 4 aircraft for networking.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 21 Sep 2018 17:03

S-400 deal a 'significant transaction', may lead to sanction ..

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 21 Sep 2018 18:20

China urges US to withdraw sanctions or face 'consequences'

Beijing warns of consequences if Washington does not cancel sanctions on Chinese military for purchase from Russia.


<snip>

"The Chinese side expresses strong indignation over the above-mentioned unreasonable practices of the US side," foreign ministry spokesperson Geng Shuang told journalists.

Moscow also warned that Washington was "playing with fire" and accused the US of trying to squeeze Russia out of the global arms market.

"This is unfair competition, dishonest competition, an attempt to use non-market methods that that run counter to norms and principles of international trade to squeeze the main competitor of US makers out of the markets," said President Vladimir Putin's spokesperson Dmitry Peskov.

<snip>

While being added to the blacklist does not trigger sanctions, anyone doing business with a blacklisted person or entity could face penalties like those imposed on China.

US officials said the imposition of penalties on China was the first time that a third-party country was punished under CAATSA and suggested the White House could use the law in the future against countries purchasing equipment from Russia.

"The ultimate target of these sanctions is Russia," a senior US administration official told journalists, insisting on anonymity. "CAATSA sanctions in this context are not intended to undermine the defence capabilities of any particular country. They are aimed at imposing costs on Russia in response to its malign activities."

Turkey is in talks regarding the purchase of S-400 missiles from Russia and India has also expressed interest in purchasing S-400s, moves which the US opposes.

"You can be confident that we have spent an enormous amount of time talking about prospective purchases of things such as S-400s and Sukhois with people all around the world who may have been interested in such things and some who may still be," the US official added.

"We have made it very clear to them that these - that systems like the S-400 are a system of key concern with potential CAATSA implications."


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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Philip » 21 Sep 2018 18:36

Viv, there's a feature in either Vayu or the F mag on the same.A detailed description of the system , etc.
We're reportedly getting the 40N6 400km missile , a later variant which is also more expensive than those the Chins are getting.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 04 Oct 2018 13:02

The Hindu
The Hindu
@the_hindu
The U.S. has urged India to forgo its proposed deal to buy the S-400 missile defence system from #Russia, warning that the deal could attract American sanctions.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Trikaal » 04 Oct 2018 20:43

Ok, the US is now dangerously close to entering 'Global Times' warning territory. Seriously, how many times are they going to warn us and then give a waiver and then warn again? Stop with this daily circus already!

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby arshyam » 04 Oct 2018 22:56

Please bring on the sanctions, I say, puh-leez. In one stroke, comcasa will be dead in the water and we can proceed to do just what we want. Maybe some sense will dawn upon GoI to make the Kaveri a well funded national programme to build aero + marine propulsion capability. Not to mention severely upsetting the US' geopolitical calculations w.r.t. Iran and Russia.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby kit » 05 Oct 2018 01:23

why is America not so concerned about other non S 400 military deals?

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CAATSA...? (Shooting one's self in one's own cowboy-booted foot.)

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 05 Oct 2018 02:03

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The bigger picture makes this clear: They can't sell the F35 to any operator of the S400, because that would give too much opportunity for the S400s/(and so, the Russians), to compile a multi-aspect "radar signature library", thus compromising its stealth.

This proliferation of S400s is upsetting the potential profitability of the F35 program in a major way. They had expected to sell a bunch of these planes to Turkey; but not any more. Qatar is no doubt, facing similar pressure for similar reasons; as are other nations who've bought or signed for S400s, though they are in the US orbit, so to speak (Egypt, Saudi Arabia), etc?.

The Americans want to sell F35s to all and sundry; but they cannot do so if the destination "client" country operates S400.

NB: Don't expect the Turks to back-off their intention to buy S400, which upsets a lot of cost forecasting for F35. (Kiss those falling cost-per-unit figures goodbye.) The tamasha between the US and Turkey is deep and probably irreparable. One cannot count Turkey as a NATO partner with all the certainty that we would, the Germans, for example (speaking as a Canadian myself).

TAKEAWAY LESSON: Whatever trumpeting is done by Trump, to proclaim how he has "strengthened NATO" yada, yada.......... The net result of Trump's handling of Turkey, will be 1 Million fewer uniformed troops solidly under NATO. Turkey is now "NATO" in name only.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby ramana » 05 Oct 2018 20:57

Check out @ANI’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/ANI/status/10481937 ... 0946?s=09w

Basically CAATSA won't be invoked in US ally

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 05 Oct 2018 21:30

Turkey is both an allay and NATO treaty partner and they faced sanctions and F35 was denied.

CAATSA is just US law for domestic political consumption , we will keep buying Russian arms as it suits us , All the best to US and it’s domestic laws

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 06 Oct 2018 22:02

Very interesting news coming in that Doval tried to be the spoiler and Modi had over ruled him in the end.

S-400 deal announced quietly after Doval’s opposition, Modi’s approval

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 06 Oct 2018 22:02

Inspite of many months of sustained effort from the whos of who of US Estb ,Senators ,DOD/SD and even Jr Officials of SD threatening India not to sign S-400 deal of face CAASTA , Modi has gone ahead and signed the deal in the Interest of India and against Doval advising delay.

MSM as usual were doing US bidding , Toilet has yet to reconcile post signing the deal !

Even Twice Born Nobel from Deep State and Jr Janitors from SD were threatening India with consequences and was adopting Carrot and Stick Policy.

All threats have failed and now US is sulking , I expect strong retliation not directly but on Trade Front , Donald Trump has called INdia Tarrif King and expecting tarrif related sanctions in days ahead.

Trump describes India 'tariff king' at USMCA announcement, says it wants 'immediate' trade talks to 'keep him happy'

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Oct 2018 22:50

Austin wrote:Very interesting news coming in that Doval tried to be the spoiler and Modi had over ruled him in the end.

S-400 deal announced quietly after Doval’s opposition, Modi’s approval

Wow that is interesting although one wonders how much of it is true.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Trikaal » 06 Oct 2018 23:52

Austin wrote:Very interesting news coming in that Doval tried to be the spoiler and Modi had over ruled him in the end.

S-400 deal announced quietly after Doval’s opposition, Modi’s approval

Ugh, it looks like a PR exercise to make Modi look strong ahead of the general elections. Expecting rally speeches soon to include this 'iron man' moment too.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby arshyam » 07 Oct 2018 07:56

Or try to create a rift within the govt. Or project that the govt was for delay, but Modi used his personal popularity to override everything else (this point to assuage the amrikis). It can be spun in many such ways. Ultimately, who knows the truth?

P.S. I personally don't believe this report of Doval opposing the S-400: based on what I've read, and with his IB background, he is big on internal security, and this system will enhance that like no other.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 07 Oct 2018 19:50

Russia very keen to associate with India: Army chief Bipin Rawat

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/r ... 2018-10-07

HIGHLIGHTS

India and Russia signed a deal for S-400 missile system
US has threatened to impose restrictions on India for dealing with Russia
We follow an independent policy, Army chief said

Stressing on India's independent policymaking, Army chief Bipin Rawat on Sunday said that the Russian Army is "very keen" on associating with the Indian Army.

Speaking at an event in New Delhi, Rawat said, "Russians are very keen on associating with the Indian Army because we are a very capable army. We are capable of standing for what is right for us."


The statement comes amid fears of US sanctions over the S-400 missile deal with Russia. Russian President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi signed a $5 billion deal for India to procure one of the world's most advanced air-defence systems, the S-400 Triumf missile shield on Friday.

The US has threatened to impose restrictions on India for dealing with Russia which is already under sanctions. The deal could attract sanctions under the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) that is primarily aimed at countering Russia, Iran and North Korea.

On this Rawat said, "Yes, we do appreciate that there could be sanctions on us, but we follow an independent policy.

Assuring Russia, Army chief said that while India may be associating with the US for some technology, but it follows an independent policy.


He also added that India is very much looking forward to procuring Kamov helicopters and other weapon systems and technology from Russia.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Kashi » 08 Oct 2018 04:06

The Modi-Doval article is attributed to Ajai Shukla...enough said.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 09 Oct 2018 01:01

Why do countries want to buy the Russian S-400?

The system is an upgrade to the S-300, which Syria recently purchased, with potential clients such as India and Turkey.
by Yarno Ritzen

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby chetak » 09 Oct 2018 10:50

Austin wrote:Very interesting news coming in that Doval tried to be the spoiler and Modi had over ruled him in the end.

S-400 deal announced quietly after Doval’s opposition, Modi’s approval


Ajay shooklaw?? really?? and only shooklaw has heard of it??

why wouldn't doval be giving contrary advice??

Isn't that why he is there?? To weigh the pros and cons and give his advice??

Once all the inputs are in and discussed, the boss gets to take an informed executive decision.

It doesn't mean disent or disagreement or rancour.

Shooklaw knows that no one is going to "dispute" him (dogs barking syndrome) and BTW, with this govt, shooklaw is as persona non grata as anyone can ever get.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby pankajs » 09 Oct 2018 11:40

Exactly .... Babudom's job it to lay out all options before the executive with its pros and cons and let the executive make the call.

If all Doval has done is to lay out the pros and cons in all sincerity he has done his job.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 11 Oct 2018 10:11

"India Will Find Out": Trump On Sanctions For S-400 Deal With Russia

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/donald- ... e-trending

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 11 Oct 2018 10:21

Put the damn sanctions and end the suspense! :)

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Trikaal » 11 Oct 2018 12:02

Sanctions= cancelation of multi billion dollar defense deals, no COMCASA, no Quad. So basically, no chance. However, make no mistake. Trump will definitely try to milk this opportunity to make India bow on Trade deal. Our leaders need to stand firm and look after our interests.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 11 Oct 2018 12:30

They would likely put Tarrif Barrier on India on the Economy , Trump has already declared India as World Tariff King :lol: How much more love can you get from POTUS :rotfl:

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby rgosain » 11 Oct 2018 13:11

I think both sides know that there are going to be tariffs on India whether there are sanctions or not, and it is for this reason that Iran has been contracted to supply a further 9m barrels following the Nov deadline.
The level of tariffs is probably equivalent to India's outlay for US weapons since 2005, when both sides started to talk after over 40 years, and I can't see how India can continue purchasing US systems, or continue with US reactors if there is a sanctions or tariff threat.

Austin, Trikaal, just a few more things that haven't been mentioned, is that the Bush admin basically started the nuclear deal around 2002/3 as a way of weaning India away from Iran, but the Hyde act and Obama's poison pill which prevents reprocessing and stockpiling has basically killed it. Any further tariffs should bury it for good .

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby arshyam » 11 Oct 2018 16:49

Bring it on, I say...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nrshah » 11 Oct 2018 21:47

'India will soon find out': Trump on US sanctions for S-400 deal with Russia
https://m.timesofindia.com/india/india- ... 157531.cms

So much for strategic convergence and all the argument with better relationship with USA

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 11 Oct 2018 23:37

Expect quid pro quo for CAATSA waiver, if one does come along.

F-16 or F-18 perhaps.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Katare » 12 Oct 2018 00:13

That is Trump being Trump but if he puts sanctions all hell will break loose on last 10-12 years of Indo-American romance!!!!

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby krishna_krishna » 12 Oct 2018 00:24

Rakesh wrote:Expect quid pro quo for CAATSA waiver, if one does come along.

F-16 or F-18 perhaps.


Wasn’t nasam 2 a quid pro quo

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2018 00:30

Trump may want more.....

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Trikaal » 12 Oct 2018 10:58

He wants a trade deal. And given the rafale mess, there's no way the govt can offer a quid pro quo through an F-16 deal quickly or even in this tenure. Rafale mess has effectively made all aircraft procurement radioactive for now.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 12 Oct 2018 11:01

Rakesh wrote:Expect quid pro quo for CAATSA waiver, if one does come along.

F-16 or F-18 perhaps.


Not really because we have dozens of Russian deal in pipeline and help of Russian in Strategic Sectors SSBN/SSN program.

If you end up for quid pro quo for each deal then you end up loosing your sovereignty , This reminds me of US putting complete sanction on ISRO for cryogenic deal for no rhyme or reason and ISRO emerged much stronger 2 decades later.

Let them put sanctions they are not our friends really , our indiginous industry and relations will partners Russia Israel France and who ever wants to treat India as equal partners without putting a gun on our head will emerge stronger decade later.

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 12 Oct 2018 11:01

Threats won’t stop future defence deals with India: Russia on US sanctions

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... wDZdI.html

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 12 Oct 2018 11:03

Look how POTUS is defending his own interest for his own industry , No Sanction on Saudi here but he is more than happy to threaten sanction Tarrif King country for defending sovereignity


Trump doubles down: He’s not stopping Saudi arms sales

https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... rms-sales/

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby Austin » 12 Oct 2018 18:36

India's decision on buying oil from Iran, defence system from Iran, defence system from Russia not helpful: US

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

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Re: CAATSA...An Oxymoron?

Postby chetak » 12 Oct 2018 18:55

Rakesh wrote:Expect quid pro quo for CAATSA waiver, if one does come along.

F-16 or F-18 perhaps.


Absolutely right.

Expect either the F-16 or F-18 to be thrust down our throats or even may be up our....... without the benefit of KY jelly.

Trump is a businessman with an election to win.

Unable to scuttle the rafale deal, they will surely sabotage the follow on french sales to the IAF as well as the IN requirements.

This will saddle us with much older technology and leave us stranded as an easily managed cheaper parts supply chain for the F-16 or F-18's little remaining lifecycle support worldwide.


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