Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 19:29

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 6446273537 ---> GRSE shipyard lays the keel for their first P-17A frigate (Yard Number 3022), delivery is scheduled for 2023, MDL’s first P17A (Yard Number 12651) will be delivered in 2022 to the Indian Navy.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 11 Nov 2018 22:09

^ Wish we had better shot of p-17a, Atleast we can spot Mark 45 Mod 4 and possibly a new air search radar. Hope P-17a can be stretched as I proposed earlier for new class of DDG.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 22:13

Tell me about it. See this one John! So frustrating...move outta the way! :)

https://twitter.com/CMDGRSE/status/1061216570960240641 ---> A momentous occasion for GRSE. Keel of Yard 3022, first of the three Advanced Stealth Frigates under the Prestigious Project P17A laid by Vice Admiral Karambir Singh, FOC-in-C Eastern Naval Command. GRSE is committed to meet project timelines and moving ahead. Good Pace.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 22:15

See this one John, tweeted a little while earlier...

https://twitter.com/I30mki/status/1061606212838531077 ---> GRSE shipyard lays the keel for their first P17A frigate (Yard number 3022), delivery is scheduled for 2023, MDL’s first P17A (Yard number 12651) will be delivered in 2022 to the Indian Navy.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 11 Nov 2018 22:46

The P-17a models (structure looks to be inferior compared to shivalik with exception of flush deck) and CGI (looks much cleaner) have numerous differences in the superstructure and the mast when compared to each other. The GRSE poster seems to match the CGI. One possibile explanation for disparity is Are both shipyards building different designs?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 23:01

John, I was at a bookstore yesterday and I saw the newest Russian frigate - the Admiral Gorshkov. My goodness, what a beauty!!!

The recently concluded deal for four frigates was a follow on to the Krivak Class and not this one right?

Admiral Gorshkov (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_G ... ss_frigate)

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 11 Nov 2018 23:10

Yes it for Admiral Grigorivich ( latest deal is for last two vessels I believe). Russians did offer Groshkov for P-17a for around a billion each but navy went with a local design.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral ... ss_frigate

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ManuJ » 12 Nov 2018 01:33

Love the layout of the Gorshkov, especially the ample space dedicated to missile systems.
Interestingly, Russian navy seems to have abandoned the RBUs to which IN is still persisting with.

Also, how come the difference in size between the new IN frigates and destroyers is down to ~1000 tonnes?
The frigates seem to be getting bigger and approaching destroyer sizes, but the destroyers are not seeing a commensurate increase.
Would love to see IN destroyers closer to 9K tonnes with ample space for 128 vls.

None of the new frigates and destroyers are equipped with towed sonars.
That needs to happen asap.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 12 Nov 2018 03:16

P17A design is such a confusion.

MDL shows one design and GRSE another. It all started with the CGI shown at GRSE, which was made public years back.

If the one at MDL is the final design, not sure why GRSE use the initial design and that too in presence of a Navy offical. It is all very weird.

Needless to say, the one shown by GRSE seem better.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kakarat » 12 Nov 2018 03:24

I can confirm from Defexpo 2018 that the MDL Model is final and it is flush deck. The rails on the model are the peace time rails for allowing movement on the deck and not permanent ones

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 12 Nov 2018 03:27

Are we sticking with the same search radar? We have AESA search radars from BEL. Not sure why it is not included.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 12 Nov 2018 03:28

I think the shipyards are building two different designs, it would make no sense for GRSE repeatedly show off an older design which sports the latest weapons like Mk 45 main gun which was confirmed only a year ago.


Love the layout of the Gorshkov, especially the ample space dedicated to missile systems.


Advantages of a new design unlike Talwar/Grigorivich which is based on Krivak iii. Need to go for stretched P-17a IMO for next DDG for 8000+ ton vessel and sticking with P-17a as base would minimize risk.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 12 Nov 2018 06:33

Apples and oranges.The P-17As are significantly different in size and differ a bit in armament and the ASW copter and would also impact the cost in comparison with the smaller FFG.The IN needs large nos. of a new missile corvette of around 1500t with a decent ASW package, 8 SSMs, a DP main gun and a missile defence system.

What is interesting in the new Gorshkov is the repositioning ASW MBU rocket launchers to the foredeck on either side of the SAM VLS silos, instead of the earlier elevated position forward of the superstructure.This allows for a greater load of SSMs and SAMs.This latest variant of the erstwhile Sov.U Krivak class shows what a reliable hull and basic design it has been for around 50 years!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 12 Nov 2018 08:54

The blast from the rbus will singe the vl arrays black
That was the advantage of placing them separately earlier

Imo best is locate amidships one on each beam more toward the helicopter area . Being anti torpedo weapons the torps will mostly be inbound from rear quadrant as subs will try to take a side or rear shot than take a ship head on

Try colocate them with the triple tt launchers on each side

What kind of rbu does cheen 052 and 055 have? Their biggest threat is usn ssn fleet not carrier aviation

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 12 Nov 2018 09:15

Gorshkov carries Rpk-9 iirc it does not have reload hence it can be positioned in foredeck unlike Rpk-8 aka Rbu-6000 which has large reload magazine and mechanism.

China uses Rbu-1200 on some of its vessel but seems to have abandoned them on newer vessels.

Krivak iii was chosen for Talwar because it was inexpensive design. Rewind back to 90s,Russia refused to export neustrashimy they offered export light FFG called Delta which was more modern and expensive the compromise was modification of Krivak III. Rest is history.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 12 Nov 2018 12:17

Newer Ru surface ship design concepts have repositioned their ASW weaponry forward instead of the exg. podition on the Talwars.It allows fof greater numbers of missiles to be carried , plus larger ones too.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 12 Nov 2018 18:05

Philip wrote:Newer Ru surface ship design concepts have repositioned their ASW weaponry forward instead of the exg. podition on the Talwars.It allows fof greater numbers of missiles to be carried , plus larger ones too.

Philip once again this is not something new Rbu-1200 were also located before the main gun in vessels such as Sovremenny because it doesn't require extensive deck penetration. The reason why Rbu-6000 are located where they are is because of reload mechanism. The same would apply to Gorshkov if it were fitted with Rbu-6000.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nits » 12 Nov 2018 19:55

Kakarat wrote:I can confirm from Defexpo 2018 that the MDL Model is final and it is flush deck. The rails on the model are the peace time rails for allowing movement on the deck and not permanent ones


Sir any pic we have in public domain

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 12 Nov 2018 21:03

nits wrote:
Kakarat wrote:I can confirm from Defexpo 2018 that the MDL Model is final and it is flush deck. The rails on the model are the peace time rails for allowing movement on the deck and not permanent ones


Sir any pic we have in public domain

I believe he is referring to this model:

Rakesh wrote:See this one John, tweeted a little while earlier...

https://twitter.com/I30mki/status/1061606212838531077 ---> GRSE shipyard lays the keel for their first P17A frigate (Yard number 3022), delivery is scheduled for 2023, MDL’s first P17A (Yard number 12651) will be delivered in 2022 to the Indian Navy.

Image


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kakarat » 12 Nov 2018 21:27

Yes this ^ is the one

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 12 Nov 2018 21:36

Wonder if RBU can placed on the super structure, may be around the radar mast? It is high up, so no obstruction. High enough to provide space for reload mechanism.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 13 Nov 2018 01:01

Not sure if there is room below deck, if there is room we would fit in 8 cell barak-8 vls which is about same/less footprint than a Rpk-8 system. If maximizing is critical over ASuW, IN could have replaced the RBUs with another 2x8 Barak-8 vls module but the fact they didn't tells me they take the threat PLAN/PN SSKs quiet seriously.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Katare » 13 Nov 2018 03:41

Is the bulbous bulge at the front underside of the ship is sonar dome?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Katare » 13 Nov 2018 03:45

Rakesh wrote:See this one John, tweeted a little while earlier...

https://twitter.com/I30mki/status/1061606212838531077 ---> GRSE shipyard lays the keel for their first P17A frigate (Yard number 3022), delivery is scheduled for 2023, MDL’s first P17A (Yard number 12651) will be delivered in 2022 to the Indian Navy.

Image

Image


These are two completely different ship designs. The top one is MDL and bottom one GRSE? They are going to make 3.5 of each type :mrgreen:

What a mess!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 13 Nov 2018 09:17

Katare wrote:Is the bulbous bulge at the front underside of the ship is sonar dome?

Yes that is where hull mounted sonar is located.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 13 Nov 2018 09:34

Katare wrote:
Rakesh wrote:See this one John, tweeted a little while earlier...

https://twitter.com/I30mki/status/1061606212838531077 ---> GRSE shipyard lays the keel for their first P17A frigate (Yard number 3022), delivery is scheduled for 2023, MDL’s first P17A (Yard number 12651) will be delivered in 2022 to the Indian Navy.

Image

Image


These are two completely different ship designs. The top one is MDL and bottom one GRSE? They are going to make 3.5 of each type :mrgreen:

What a mess!


Yah, the tweet is wrong with the second picture. The first picture should be official as it was revealed by MDL who won the contract with its design. They will build 4, GRSE 3. It is a good move to create concurrent production to cut down on delivery time for the entire run. Obviously, the execution must be there. Especially for GRSE who must deliver on time and cost with someone else’s design.

https://www.janes.com/article/79583/ind ... figuration

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby maz » 13 Nov 2018 13:42

tsarkar said

"We had a veterans day and I'll post some photos shortly."

Sir, some of us are waiting with bated breath for said photos.... When do you plan on releasing the pix 'cos we are running short of O2..... :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby maz » 13 Nov 2018 13:46

Not so long ago, GRSE had a Damen designed frigate as the P17A in one of its Annual Reports. So no great surprise there with the older image of the P17A. As for the delivery dates of ships, seeing is believing so consider all dates as moving targets. For now.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby maz » 13 Nov 2018 13:47

Details of GRSE’s small anti-submarine corvette emerge
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/imps ... te-emerge/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kakarat » 13 Nov 2018 13:47

If I am right for the frigate/destroyer level ships the design is by the Navy and not by the yards. The CG design was a earlier one and the model is the latest one and I think Maz had given an explanation on the reasons for design change earlier in this forum. So MDL and GRSE will be building the same design and not different ones though there many be minor differences under the skin

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby lakshmanM » 13 Nov 2018 13:48

In late 90s, they designed a ship with "relatively" advanced stealth features - Image
In 2015, they just chose to skip all those RCS reduction exercises and designed this?
Image
Aren't we supposed to be moving ahead? P17A was supposed to improve upon the P17 in terms of stealth. Looks like MDL took a step back.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby maz » 13 Nov 2018 13:52

The conceptual design and basic design layout ( the general arrangement) of the larger warships are indeed done by the Navy's DND. Shipyards do the detail design. Hopefully, both yards will stick to a common set of designs and changes. Unfortunately, this does not appear to be happening to the 16-ship ASWSWC program where both yards - Cochin and Garden Reach - are pursuing their own designs.:(

Yes, the 17A design - on the surface - appears to be less 'stealthy' than the 17. Wonder why?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 13 Nov 2018 17:48

^^^ I wonder if the new module construction process that the Navy required and which neither MDL nor GRSE are familiar with had anything to do with the tamping down of stealth features?

But then again, it only looks less stealthy not necessarily is less stealthy.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 13 Nov 2018 19:16

Shivalik was fairly expensive it cost about/more than (adj inflation) the Kolkata class. So perhaps they reduced some of RCS reduction features and structural changes to reduce the cost?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 13 Nov 2018 20:19

bath iron works and another yard create the exact same DDG51 ships. isnt that what amortizing opex over life of ship is about?

I doubt a few more structural complexity has any drastic impact on cost of ship. its the fact we only produce 3 of each class that keeps our cost high.

DDG51 has crossed some 60 in number. Cheen has some 15 type52D and is building 10 more.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 13 Nov 2018 20:49

^ High procurement cost of Shivalik was one of the reasons the procurement was scaled back to work on a new design. Even Kamorta class face a similar fate after their cost started skyrocketing as it stands right now the order has stopped at 4.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 13 Nov 2018 20:59

no doubt this class will also face the same fate. stopping at 3 or 4 is a chicken egg problem - low volume will impose high costs. costs can only be amortized over large build nos. the initial tranches of anything including JSF is costing more.

if they want low cost why not build a leander2 class and fit modern weapons on it

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 13 Nov 2018 21:31

Navy’s fusion centre will be independent of IONS: Lanba.

The Information Fusion Centre for the Indian Ocean Region (IFC-IOR) being commissioned by the Indian Navy as an adjunct to its Information Management and Analysis Centre (IMAC) in Gurugram will be independent of the Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS) forum, but the Navy expects all IONS members and Indian Ocean littorals to be part of it, Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Sunil Lanba has maintained.

The IFC-IOR, whose setting up in December this year was reported by The Hindu on Tuesday, would be sharing white shipping information [exchange of info on merchant vessels] alone with like-minded countries. India had white shipping agreement with 18 countries, but only 11 of them were operational, he said.

Exchange of classified, operational information, would be on the basis of bilateral agreements, independent of the centre. Admiral Lanba said the list of countries to be invited to be represented at IFC-IOR through liaison officers was being worked out with the Defence Ministry.

To a query on its ways to check the growing influence of China in the Indian Ocean, Admiral Lanba said that over the last one year, the Navy was making mission-based deployments, permanently deploying its vessels at all egress and entry points of the Indian Ocean to monitor movement of ships, including that of China’s People’s Liberation Army (Navy). Besides, air patrols were also undertaken. It also undertook several capacity and capability building initiatives with several like-minded nations in the IOR for the purpose.

Earlier, addressing the 10th anniversary commemorative seminar of IONS, he said the seas were too large for any one Navy to secure them singlehandedly and “our ability to work in coordination with other stakeholders will enhance the effectiveness of our individual efforts manifold.” He said faced with common challenges, the IONS members had accrued enormous benefits by sharing experiences, best practices and formulating standardised procedures to improve coordination and interoperability. The forum, he said, had come a long way in the past 10 years.

On training, he said the Navy trained about 1,000 foreign officers and sailors each year and this year alone, naval personnel from 33 countries were trained at Indian naval training establishments. As part of its efforts at capability enhancement, it had begun to give sea training too. “The [Kochi-based] Flag Officer Sea Training (FOST) organisation recently carried out work up of a Malaysian ship. Earlier, it was given to Seychelles, Sri Lanka and Mauritius.” Admiral Lanba said the IONS would also see if there could be a working group on training.

The demand for a standing force for the forum would be looked into by a working group. “But it will take sometime to arrive at a consensus on this,” he added.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Katare » 13 Nov 2018 21:54

lakshmanM wrote:In late 90s, they designed a ship with "relatively" advanced stealth features - Image
In 2015, they just chose to skip all those RCS reduction exercises and designed this?
Image
Aren't we supposed to be moving ahead? P17A was supposed to improve upon the P17 in terms of stealth. Looks like MDL took a step back.


Explain please. Looks pretty good to my pious abdul eyes?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby lakshmanM » 13 Nov 2018 23:00

FINCANTIERI TO COLLABORATE WITH THE INDIAN SHIPYARDS MDL AND GRSE FOR THE NAVY’S FRIGATES 21 DECEMBER 2015
The Group adds advice for the P17A project to the previous experiences made in the country

Trieste, 21 December 2015 – Fincantieri has signed a contract with Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), one of the most important Indian shipyards, controlled by the Ministry of Defence and specialized in the building of naval and offshore units, to provide technical advice within the Project 17A. This project envisages the construction of 7 stealth frigates ordered this year in February by the Indian Navy to the two shipyards MDL and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE).
This important agreement allows the group to establish a long-term cooperation with the two shipyards and to consolidate its commercial presence in the country.
The supply will affect part of the functional project of specific elements and the development of detailed engineering aimed at integrated building in the two yards; design optimization processes and modular construction; training and ongoing technical assistance for every stage of design till delivery.
The Project 17A is the follow-up of Project 17 – that is 3 multirole Shivalik class stealth frigates built at Mazagon between 2000 and 2010 - for the Indian Navy. It regards the construction of a total of 7 frigates of 149 meters in length with a displacement of 6,400 tons. With a basic and functional design developed by the Indian Navy, the ships will be built at MDL and GRSE, which will be modernized and enhanced thanks to Fincantieri’s advice in order to use the modular construction technique as well as the one known as "integrated construction". This experience will also bring about a significant return of technology and know-how for Fincantieri, with the creation of system advisors, useful for other programs in which the group is involved too.
https://www.fincantieri.com/en/media/press-releases/2015/000701/

Similarly, in case of Project 15A with MDL, Mumbai, delivery of three ships named INS Kolkata, INS Kochi and INS Chennai, faced repeated delays. The committee observed that "the original cost of Rs. 3580 crore was revised to Rs. 11,662 crore. Cost overrun has been mainly due to the increase in equipment cost and Yard material, increase of cost of labour and labour overheads and realistic assessment of cost of weapons and sensors."

And in case of Project 28 with M/s GRSE, Kolkata, delivery schedule of three ships—INS Kamrota, INS Kadmatt and INS Kiltan—was revised repeatedly, which led to cost overrun from Rs. 3,051.2 crore to Rs. 78,52.39 crore.
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2018/03/15/repeated-delays-in-naval-projects-led-to-huge-cost-escalation.html


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