Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 06 Jul 2018 19:45

Building a updated Type 209 should not be too difficult as if i am right Indian Navy was involved in the design of Indian 209s and a lot of design related documents were transferred during their construction in India. Getting any subsystems required for the sub that we dont have could be bought Off-the-shelf and no one is going to say no as long as we pay cash.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 06 Jul 2018 20:16

South Korea has tremendous experience and ability with building and operating the Upgraded 209. We can tie up with them.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Jul 2018 21:26

Kakarat wrote:Building a updated Type 209 should not be too difficult as if i am right Indian Navy was involved in the design of Indian 209s and a lot of design related documents were transferred during their construction in India. Getting any subsystems required for the sub that we dont have could be bought Off-the-shelf and no one is going to say no as long as we pay cash.

I believe its just a question of willpower and wanting to do it.

Same was case with artillery and when things got too dire, suddenly we were able to find blueprints and churn out upgraded variations of the FH77B

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Jul 2018 23:27

maz wrote: What IS certain is that the IN should seriously consider restarting the Type 209 line - suitably updated with state of the art combat systems and hull equipment. Production could be at MDL and L&T for example. Imagine this scenario: within 10 years, there could be many hulls in service. 12-16 hulls is a distinct possibility within 10 years. They are relatively cheap, can fire missiles and best of all, can be mass produced locally. TKMS will only be too glad to sell kits and the other bits.

If the Type 209's are upgraded with the latest equipment would they remain much cheaper than the Scorpene or U-214? Might be easier to make a deal with the Germans for building the U-214 itself then. Would be faster since there is no upgrade involved.

Best case scenario is building 6 more Scorpenes in a second line. Govt. will need to grow a pair and order MDL to transfer knowhow to a private yard for setting up the second line. The limiting factors here are the Scorpene data leak and the Navy's insistence on VLS in P-75I.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Jul 2018 09:44

BHEL to partner Zorya of Ukraine in overhauling warship engines
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/07/ ... ne-in.html

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Jul 2018 11:13

If we own the blue prints for scorpean and the 209. I would want to have both the boat's prints shared with every yard that wants to be a part of sub building process in India. Let them come up with their own unique designs.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 07 Jul 2018 21:54

Indian Navy destroyer INS Delhi receives extensive combat systems makeover during MLU
http://www.janes.com/article/81566/indi ... during-mlu

The Indian Navy’s Project 15 destroyer INS Delhi is receiving a major combat system upgrade as part of its ongoing mid-life upgrade (MLU).

Imagery analysis suggests Delhi had entered its MLU cycle at Naval Dockyard Mumbai by May 2017 and work is currently ongoing.

Under the destroyer’s MLU programme, a significant portion of legacy Russian-origin combat systems are being replaced by indigenously sourced kit, in addition to other ship system and habitability upgrades.

The KH 35E Uran anti-ship missile system, including the Garpun-Bal missile targeting radar, is being replaced by the Brahmos missile system and an unspecified surface surveillance radar (SSR).

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jul 2018 14:15

Nachi two pointx reg
extra Scorpenes.Their huge cost even for non- AIP boats and the disastrous data leak.It's why I would prefer the German solution.The Ru offer of a combo of Ru and desi tech (AIP?) for a future conv. boat is interesting as BMos would feature certainly, but its contiurs should be clearer.If there is much commonality with systems aboard our N-boats being built it would have a logistic advantage.However we need two lines of conv. boats one western to keep abresst of its tech.The other could be a desi- Ru combo.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jul 2018 22:37

Maritime dialogue with China, Russia as ties deepen

siddharth · Post by **siddharth** » 08 Jul 2018 23:28

dinesha wrote:Indian Navy destroyer INS Delhi receives extensive combat systems makeover during MLU
http://www.janes.com/article/81566/indi ... during-mlu
The Indian Navy’s Project 15 destroyer INS Delhi is receiving a major combat system upgrade as part of its ongoing mid-life upgrade (MLU).

Imagery analysis suggests Delhi had entered its MLU cycle at Naval Dockyard Mumbai by May 2017 and work is currently ongoing.

Under the destroyer’s MLU programme, a significant portion of legacy Russian-origin combat systems are being replaced by indigenously sourced kit, in addition to other ship system and habitability upgrades.

The KH 35E Uran anti-ship missile system, including the Garpun-Bal missile targeting radar, is being replaced by the Brahmos missile system and an unspecified surface surveillance radar (SSR).

Will Barak 8 be installed?

John · Post by **John** » 09 Jul 2018 03:05

I noted a while back with lack of any Uran ship based missiles being ordered to replace the ones nearing end of life we are likely to replace the system with Brahmos or another alternative in existing ships.

As for barak-8 unless El/M-2238 is mounted I don't see it being fitted on Delhi. Shivalik in other hand could get Barak-8.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Jul 2018 18:56

Wasn't there an RFI for a new class of med. range SSM fo
the IN's legacy warships currently equipped with Uran? The missile , first fitted into our Tarantulas decades ago must be approaching the end of its shelf life. With the advent of BMos, our principal warships will definitely be looking to replace Uran with BMos.At least the Klub has a Mach 3 terminal warhead to defeat anti- missile defences.

John · Post by **John** » 09 Jul 2018 20:52

^ Klub is too heavy and long as well, it weights from 1.6 to 2.2 Tons depending on the version and i believe the inclined version is also canisterized which adds more weight. Which is far more than Uran, If a vessel can fit Klub it can likely handle Brahmos. Yes there was RFI and i believe DRDO is working on one as well.

Arima · Post by **Arima** » 09 Jul 2018 21:11

is India's second Indigenous air craft carrier construction stared?

Ajay Shukla says so?

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/why- ... 180709.htm

chola · Post by **chola** » 09 Jul 2018 21:31

Arima wrote:is India's second Indigenous air craft carrier construction stared?

Ajay Shukla says so?

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/why- ... 180709.htm

No, it was explicitly stated that the Vishal has not started and can’t even get an “in principle” approval. “In principle” would at least give some hope — “We don’t have any money now but we’ll consider your idea when we do.”

Right now there is nothing except a flat f*****g “no” on the Navy’s proposal. When the lead times point to post 2030 on any new carrier even if we had started yesterday, this non-commital will basically hamstring IN carrier aviation for decades to come.

IAC-2 should have begun construction, but has not even managed to get an 'in principle' approval from the defence ministry, which seems paralysed by the fratricidal contest between the army, air force and navy for the same depleted budget.

maz · Post by **maz** » 09 Jul 2018 23:15

People, I need help in translating MDL's new Hindi magazine which has sections on the P17A as well as their sub programs. Is there anyone here who can do the honors?

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Jul 2018 23:55

sum wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Building a updated Type 209 should not be too difficult as if i am right Indian Navy was involved in the design of Indian 209s and a lot of design related documents were transferred during their construction in India. Getting any subsystems required for the sub that we dont have could be bought Off-the-shelf and no one is going to say no as long as we pay cash.
I believe its just a question of willpower and wanting to do it.

Same was case with artillery and when things got too dire, suddenly we were able to find blueprints and churn out upgraded variations of the FH77B

+1 ..kinda funny but true

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 10 Jul 2018 14:17

maz wrote:People, I need help in translating MDL's new Hindi magazine which has sections on the P17A as well as their sub programs. Is there anyone here who can do the honors?

Hi Maz,
I can help out!! My email is Djvignesh at Gmail. Com..

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 10 Jul 2018 17:08

Titagarh Wagons becomes the first private sector Company from West Bengal to launch a ship for Indian Navy
~ The 1000T fuel tankers will enrich the Indian Navy's pride, flagship aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya,
~ Provides a major boost to the vision 'Make in India' ~
~ The launching of the first vessel has been achieved ahead of contractual schedule
~ The construction work for the other three vessels is in process
---One 1000T Fuel Barge for Indian Navy and
---Two Coastal Research Vessels for National Institute of Ocean Technology (under Ministry of Earth Sciences, Govt. of India)
https://titagarh.in/downloads/other-inf ... launch.pdf

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 10 Jul 2018 17:13

http://inmarco.in/Brochure.pdf
INTERNATIONAL MARITIME Kumbh mela.
a quadrennial event by mumbai branch
THE INSTITUTE OF MARINE ENGINEERS (INDIA)
1st - 3rd November 2018

The LaLit Hotel, Andheri (East),
Mumbai, India
-------------------------
Contact:
Chairman: Mr. S M Rai
Convener: Mr. V K Jain
Website: www.inmarco.in
Tel: +91 22 2285 1195
Email: convener@inmarco.in
Telefax: +91 22 2283 4035

mody · Post by **mody** » 10 Jul 2018 18:01

Building more Scorpenes is a better bet. We can include some elements of the Type U209, to mitigate the data leak of the scorpene design.
The basic scorpene design can also be modified to change the torpedo tubes to accommodate the Varunastra torpedo and Nirbhay missiles.

As it is we have not ordered the WASS Black Shark torpedo's and the old German wire guided torpedo's are not cutting edge anymore.
The main combat management modules can be imported directly from France if required.

We have developed the steel for the subs and fabricating the hulls, the sonar (USHUS-NG), batteries, AIP module as well, depending on how the DRDO AIP module shapes up on the last two Scorpenes, the weapons systems, as per above, with perhaps an addition of Klub anti-ship missile or adding a 8-cell VLS launcher for Brahmos-NG. For the later, all concerned parties will have to take the call, to decide when Brahmos-NG will be ready and also the size of the VLS launchers for the same.
All of the above are well within our capabilities.

Maybe we can build the Scorpene-U209-MKI subs in tranches, with the progressively more indigenisation for every 2 subs that we build.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Jul 2018 20:23

Plans for India’s second indigenous aircraft carrier continue to stall

http://www.janes.com/article/81624/plan ... e-to-stall

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 10 Jul 2018 21:52

Indian Navy has to prioritise work on Indigenous Submarine design first, this will save billions which can then be used for bigger aircraft carrier. Now by paying billions to a foreign shipyard for Sub design and a small budget allocation it will be difficult

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Jul 2018 23:41

In recent years the IN appears to have gond adrift in its direction in comparison with preceding years where careful planning, loads of common sense and little money, saw the miracle of the IN building its own navy in ingenious fashion, the dnvy of many a nation.

Too much of rubbing shoulders with the Yanquis and their super carriers and CBGs have given some in the IN a grandiose ambition of emulating the USN.India is NOT an interventionist power, embarked upon expedetionary warfare but a major power whose primary maritime role is to dominate its backard, the IOR and sanitise it from extraneous forces.We ate blessed with a number of jnsinkable carriers , the numerous islands of ghe ANC, Lakshadweep and many friends in the IOR , somewilling to host our assets like Mauritius for one. What we neef urgently izsa large fleet os subs which can send to Davy Jones' Locker and inimical intrudinv force just as German U-boats almost won the Atlantic War.Lack of air and surface support of their wolf packs and breaking of the German code by the British who knew their locations, saw the tide turn but it was a v.close run.

If we reinforce our LRMP assets with Backfires and leverage our unsinkable carriers with forward aviation assets, we will be able to take care of any navy on the planet attempting to attack us.With the enlarged sub fleet which should be given top priority, it eill be an extremely foolhardy enemy which would cross swords with us in the mafitime sphere in the IOR.

Building subs anc carriers has not been easy for us, so expecting desi endeavours to smoothly succeed without firang help is a pipedream.Look ag ghe 5 yr+ delay of non- AIP Scorpenes and cost overruns.If IAC-1 is any guide, it would take us at least 10 years to build the large CV, beggaring the IN in the process.For once I agree with the MOD.The IN should stop pipe dreaming and get realistic.The Chinesd threat from its 80+ sub fleet is far greater than a few dxtra carriers which it feels necessary to break out into the Pacific to challenge the USN not ghe IN.It is going to send a few dozen of its subs into ghe IOR in a future crisis, not vulnerable carriets.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Jul 2018 15:12

Not Made in India - Admiral Arun Prakash

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2018 18:34

Bharat Sanchar Nigam Limited (BSNL), a Government of India Enterprise, and NEC Technologies India Pvt. Ltd. (NECTI) announced today that a purchase order has been placed by BSNL for NECTI to design, engineer, supply, install, test and implement an optical submarine cable system connecting Chennai and the Andaman & Nicobar Islands (A&N Islands). NEC Corporation, the parent company of NECTI, will manufacture the optical submarine cable and provide technical assistance during the turnkey implementation.

The contract is for a system that includes a segment with repeaters from Chennai to Port Blair and seven segments without repeaters between the islands of Havelock, Little Andaman (Hutbay), Car Nicobar, Kamorta, the Great Nicobar Islands, Long Island and Rangat. The total cable length will be approximately 2,300km and carry 100Gb/s optical waves.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Jul 2018 22:14

Good Lord, Arun Prakash sir's constant complaining is becoming old hat.

Times have never been better for Indian industry and indigenous programs.

All sorts of local sensors and weapons are being built or are in trials and he is busy complaining about the past.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jul 2018 00:26

^^^ A section of the senior leadership of the Navy - a trend that started post 2001 - have seen greater interaction with the US Navy, which is arguably the greatest and most powerful Navy in the world. Seeing that capability first hand, combined with the American MIC wanting to get a large share of Indian defence market + the American platforms with the Navy now (the P-8I in particular) + yearly training exercises with the US Navy have all come to a head. Indian Navy admirals now truly want to mimic what the US Navy has. The Vishaal acquisition is a classic example of that. Unfortunately, our defence budget states otherwise. There are far more important priorities in the Navy right now - Project 75I, naval helos, towed sonars, SSNs, etc.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jul 2018 01:29

Rakesh wrote:^^^ A section of the senior leadership of the Navy - a trend that started post 2001 - have seen greater interaction with the US Navy, which is arguably the greatest and most powerful Navy in the world.

That is not arguable, Admiral saar.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 12 Jul 2018 10:36

chola wrote:
That is not arguable, Admiral saar.

Saar, he is right.

An arguable statement goes something like this, " He was arguably the largest mithai distributor in the entire world, with 6000 tons of production accounted for."

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jul 2018 10:38

^^^

Of all the examples, you had to use the mithai one?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2018 10:40

i think US is only place where our naval commanders may go for short courses ? UK too?

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jul 2018 16:41

dinesh_kimar wrote:
chola wrote:
That is not arguable, Admiral saar.
Saar, he is right.

An arguable statement goes something like this, " He was arguably the largest mithai distributor in the entire world, with 6000 tons of production accounted for."

Saar, t’is only arguable if there was another mithai seller with 6000 or even 5000 tons of sweets in distribution so you can arguably dispute the claim.

You cannot arguably dispute that the 800 pound USN gorilla is the biggest naval gorilla when the second biggest gorilla is 200 pound onlee! There is nothing to argue!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Jul 2018 20:03

The last paras of the good admiral's rant must be noted seriously.The "complex defence procurement procedure" and lackadaisical babudom.In fact,"make in India involving pvt. entities has come to a virtual halt. I mentioned elsewhere that recently I had a conversation with a top exec.in a pvt. defence entity who was ruing the delays,etc.The expectations of pvt. industry being dumped was openly made by L&T regarding the P-75I sub req.,which was earlier specifically meant for pvt. industry.If babudom is going to be spoonfed at the expense of Indian pvt. industry,them we will perpetually be at the mercy of firang OEMs, both from east and west.It is tragic that 4+ years of the NDA-2 regime has not been able to untie or cut the babudom knot that is the key problem why we're not yet more self-sufficient in defence.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 13 Jul 2018 23:22

maz wrote:People, I need help in translating MDL's new Hindi magazine which has sections on the P17A as well as their sub programs. Is there anyone here who can do the honors?

Why can’t google do that? Google can already read Hindi from images.then copy paste and put in translate.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 16 Jul 2018 12:41

Frigate purchase from Russia runs into high cost of Indian warship building
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/07/ ... -into.html

New Delhi and Moscow have agreed terms for the first two frigates, which are lying almost fully built in Yantar Shipyard in Kaliningrad, Russia. For those, New Delhi has negotiated an attractive price of under $1 billion (Rs 6,850 crore) – or Rs 3,425 crore each. But delivery of those two frigates is held up by prolonged negotiations over the high cost of building the remaining two vessels in Goa.

To compare, the Indian Navy will pay Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) about Rs 6,483 crore for each of seven Project 17-A frigates that will soon go into production. That is almost double Yantar’s Rs 3,425 crore price for each Grigorivich-class vessel.

To be sure, the 4,000-tonne Grigorivich-class frigates – also known internationally as the Krivak III class, and in Russia as Project 1135.6 – are smaller than the 5,600 tonne frigates of Project 17-A, and therefore cheaper to build. But they are as heavily armed and will carry the same BrahMos anti-ship missiles, AK 630 close in weapon system and heavy torpedo tubes supplied by Indian firm, Larsen & Toubro.

With four Grigorivich-class vessels lying fully, or partially, built in Yantar shipyard, there are questions over why India is accepting both delay and a significantly higher price, by stipulating the building of two frigates in India.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jul 2018 15:09

Our ship-build periods are longer than global averages: Vice-Admiral Girish Luthra

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... a-5261076/

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Jul 2018 16:09

dinesha wrote:Frigate purchase from Russia runs into high cost of Indian warship building
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/07/ ... -into.html
To compare, the Indian Navy will pay Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) about Rs 6,483 crore for each of seven Project 17-A frigates that will soon go into production. That is almost double Yantar’s Rs 3,425 crore price for each Grigorivich-class vessel.
...
With four Grigorivich-class vessels lying fully, or partially, built in Yantar shipyard, there are questions over why India is accepting both delay and a significantly higher price, by stipulating the building of two frigates in India.

Austin wrote:Our ship-build periods are longer than global averages: Vice-Admiral Girish Luthra

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... a-5261076/

Nothing new about this. The delays at the shipyards and the ongoing cost saga of the Tejas are part of a MIC going through its growing pains.

If we simply go buy from the firangi market based solely on effectiveness and price then every penny would go outside. The goras had hundreds of years of perfecting their war machines by pummeling non-whites like desis.

Self-sufficiency has to be a critical security goal. You have to pay for it somehow. The delay and expense are the price you pay in the development of your OWN manufacturing base.

Look at Cheen, their J-10 crashed repeatedly and their 05D destroyer lost power and went adrift in the IOR. But the chini armed forces still take them in large numbers, keeping funds inhouse.

The money spent on our MIC will make the industry better and faster next time. Spending those funds overseas will simply keep others better and faster.

John · Post by **John** » 16 Jul 2018 23:38

^ It makes no sense to build the last 2 frigates locally it seems the plan is being pressed up on to the navy by MOD as a way to appease Russia and push made in India.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 17 Jul 2018 00:21

The advantage of buying more Krivaks was the win-win factor:

- We get new frigates quickly
- We get new frigates which are already familiar to IN and doing well.
- Russia gets to offload partially built up ships which could not be completed due to Ukrainian components

What have we done here?