Project 17-A frigates that will soon go into production. That is almost double Yantar’s Rs 3,425 crore price for each Grigorivich-class vessel.
No one is arguing against buying existing hulls but Moving the production line to GSL is high risk. We have a builder with little experience of building FFG and a design & production that now needs to be translated & exported ( China backed from building Sovremenny locally after they saw the complications involved) . If those don't raise alarm bells along I don't know what should.Aditya G wrote:The advantage of buying more Krivaks was the win-win factor:
- We get new frigates quickly
- We get new frigates which are already familiar to IN and doing well.
- Russia gets to offload partially built up ships which could not be completed due to Ukrainian components
What have we done here?
Project 28 was supposed to give us a corvette (more greenwater than blue) not a frigate. Kamorta is a wee bit too big at 3K tons and too expensive for a mass produced corvette. We planned only four.Aditya G wrote:I have formed an opinion that IN needs a modern day equivalent of Leander class frigate. Not too big, some capability in all areas incl ASW and long range. Built with local content in all spheres move, fight, float etc.
Sadly project 28 did not yield such a ship
Locally built Talwar are right now projected to cost more than P-17 (adj inflation) and only little bit less than P-17A and with all locally built foreign products expect cost overruns.Philip wrote:Cost, cost, cost.The smaller Talwar FFGs cost less , our own official stats, allowing larger number of FFGs.Though smaller, the latest avatar of the Talwars pack considerable punch, BMos, two SAM systems- one anti-missile/gatlings, and an assortment of ASW systems similar to what's on the P-17s. The extra helo is the most significant diffetence.The P-17A costs have not been computed with certainty because none have been built as yet.
Well "poorly armed" is something that can be said about more than just the P-28. Even the P-15A/B have low missile loads for their size. P-28 was built as a purely ASW class. So the lack of anti-ship missiles is not surprising. The complete lack of SAMs is though.yensoy wrote:^^^^ As Wikiji says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamorta-c ... Criticisms At 3400 ton, the vessel is argued to be a small frigate rather than a corvette, and poorly armed. It's also been alleged that the Indian Navy wanted a vessel with the endurance of a 3400-ton frigate and an armament of a 1200-ton corvette.
Same can be said about talwar built locally in fact i would bet there is much bigger chance of cost escalation there than P-17A since GSL has never built it before and this design has never been exported. Based on current designs P-17A is not a big leap from P-17 and price wise should not defer from estimates that much, "if" they stick to schedule which is whole another story.Philip wrote:P-17A actual costs can only be quantified after the first one is built.Going by every warship built by our yards, it will be several times more than originally estimated.
gotta agree here.esp. if the need is urgent.John wrote:No one is arguing against buying existing hulls but Moving the production line to GSL is high risk. We have a builder with little experience of building FFG and a design & production that now needs to be translated & exported ( China backed from building Sovremenny locally after they saw the complications involved) . If those don't raise alarm bells along I don't know what should.Aditya G wrote:The advantage of buying more Krivaks was the win-win factor:
- We get new frigates quickly
- We get new frigates which are already familiar to IN and doing well.
- Russia gets to offload partially built up ships which could not be completed due to Ukrainian components
What have we done here?
Don’t let the usual mess of Indian procurement blind us to the extreme significance of the LPD (MRSV) contract.dinesha wrote:L&T, Reliance officials first called for bid opening, then sent back sans explanation
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 032400.cms
Exclusive: U.S. offers India armed version of Guardian drone - sources
(Reuters) - The United States has offered India the armed version of Guardian drones that were originally authorized for sale as unarmed for surveillance purposes, a senior U.S. official and an industry source told Reuters.
If the deal comes to fruition, it would be the first time Washington has sold a large armed drone to a country outside the NATO alliance.
It would also be the first high-tech unmanned aircraft in the region, where tensions between India and Pakistan run high.
...
An Indian defense source said the military wanted a drone not just for surveillance but also to be able to hunt down targets at land and sea. The military had argued the costs of acquisition did not justify buying an unarmed drone.
The cost and integration of the weapons system are still issues, as well as Indian assent to the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA) which Washington insists on as a condition for operating advanced defense systems.
India, the defense source said, has shed its opposition to the agreement after an assurance from the United States it would apply largely to U.S-procured weapons systems such as fighter planes and drones and not to the large Russian-origin equipment with the Indian military.
U.S. drone manufacturers, facing growing competition overseas, especially from Chinese and Israeli rivals which often sell under lighter restrictions, have lobbied hard for the changes in U.S export rules.
This will be a useless exercise. The P8 is built on the commodity civilian 737 jet, so the airframe cost is really not unaffordable to us as a country (see for instance the number of Indian 737 and 320 series on Boeing and Airbus' order books). Really what we are paying big bucks for is the electronics. The other factors such as customization to fit the platform, and the Il-38's limitations such as speed (prop vs jet), need for specialized training & parts supply chain from dodgy suppliers etc further tilt the balance in favour of the P8I. The P8's airframe class is being continuously improved upon, presumably the successor will be based on the 737-NG with even better baseline characteristics whatever they may be (economy==endurance, noise...).Philip wrote:Perhaps a mix of new IL-38 platforms equipped inside with similar eqpt. as the P-8Is could bring down the cost while allowing for enough numbers.
Singha wrote:for showing the flag , policing, establishing presence, nothing better than a good old WW2 style Punisher class BB. lean sleek racing yacht lines, arrays of 5" guns on the sides and 9 x 15" radar guided cannons, in turrets the size of 3BHK flat.
the modern DDG/FFG have lost the musculature and stage presence. its time for a retro look.
i present INS Durga and INS Kali . the Type55 will look like a weak 3 legged dog next to these giants, and slink away, tail tucked between its rice and fish eating legs
Damn. Those were some big monsters. The closest counterparts in our times would be the kirovs, trust the Russki to go bigger. Maybe IN can get one of these if it puts up the dinero needed for an overhaul.or maybe one of the slavas. More than anything the need for a tightly packed uvls that can squeeze 4 nirbhay/ 2 bmos /1 shourya along with multiple Sam's is crucial.The P17A will come with MFSTAR and LRSAM. Also, they will have Brahmos, as opposed to Klub. These two changes along with inflation will certainly raise the price.John wrote:^ P-28 are supposed to be armed with Barak-1 but then decision was made to wait for Maitri/VL-MICA and now SR-SAM.
Same can be said about talwar built locally in fact i would bet there is much bigger chance of cost escalation there than P-17A since GSL has never built it before and this design has never been exported. Based on current designs P-17A is not a big leap from P-17 and price wise should not defer from estimates that much, "if" they stick to schedule which is whole another story.Philip wrote:P-17A actual costs can only be quantified after the first one is built.Going by every warship built by our yards, it will be several times more than originally estimated.
Singha ji, one word for that post: EPIC.Singha wrote:for showing flag and initimidation good old BB with 9 x 15" cannons is best, organize friendly passage exercises with navies in IOR rim and fire off these vast guns to impress and awe.....
the power plant can be a modern diesel and no need for so many AA guns...a few boxes of SRSAM, a few modern sensors, good ciws guns.
make these the flagships of the navy like yamato and musashi and use them as training ships rather than aeging tir and leander ships. they have ample room for command staff and C3I control rooms to manage a fleet. plus they are fast ships able to keep up with SSNs and carrier strike groups.
I have stood on the slim tapering rising bow of the USS massachusetts in fall river , MA looking directly at the 6 x cannons and damn were they impressive. each turret is the size of a 3bhk house. marvels of mechanical and electrical engineering even now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleshi ... sachusetts
a half melted shell she fired at the Jean Bart was dug out and kept on deck. each shell is a solid 1.3 tons.
let anyone try a small boat attack against a old BB. the secondary weapons will tear them to shreds.
While we dither and dally for years on the P-75I,the 2 sub lines from Adm.Bhagwat's days (!),the Chinese and Pakis are racing ahead to outnumber us in our veru own backyard.This must be the top priority for the IN not grandiose dreams of operating a large carrier USN style.I don't know how we can weather the sub storm without some much needed imports as our desi sub construction is way behind schedule and we simply cannot match the speed of sub construction of the Chinese.If Pak acquires 18+ subs,any extra subs that the Chins throw into the IOR will be a massive threat to us and threaten our merchant shipping instead of us threatening any PRC shipping in a crisis.Terrorists waiting to infiltrate, attack Indian Navy Base; JeM men being trained in deep water: Intel reports
Manish Shukla
Updated: Jul 18, 2018, 08:20 PM IST
Pakistan based terror groups — Lashkar-a-Taiba (LeT) and Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) are planning to launch Pathankot style attack on India soil and target Indian Naval Base, according to an Intelligence Agency report.
A group of at least 10 terrorists is active and they are waiting at 'launch pads' across the Line of Control to infiltrate into the valley.
According to the inputs received by the government, terrorists are waiting near launching pads at Kel, Aathmukam, Dudhnihal and Leepa Valley.
According to the Intelligence report, ISI is pressuring LeT and JeM to attack Indian security forces, and Jaish terrorists are being trained to attack Indian Naval Base in Pakistan's Bahawalpur.
Jaish terrorists are being trained about launching underwater techniques to attack Navy.
rwater attack and deep sea
The security forces across the border has been stepped up following the Intelligence agency report.
Terror threat also looms largely on Amarnath Yatra and security for this year's pilgrimage has already been heightened to thwart any rerun of last year's militant attack that left eight pilgrims dead and several injured.
CRPF, Indian Army, and Jammu and Kashmir Police have also been asked to maintain strict vigil.
Last month, a plan hatched by the Islamic State to carry out terror strikes in New Delhi was thwarted by the security agencies after infiltrating into a module of the dreaded terror group, officials said today. The IS terror plot was foiled following the arrest of an Afghan suicide bomber, who had been under the surveillance of security agencies for long, in late 2017.
/quote]
And this warning shot from China...
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/99 ... ect-hangorChina bolsters ally Pakistan with new submarine fleet in MAJOR warning to rival India
CHINA is preparing to deliver a fleet of new submarines to its ally Pakistan as the Asian superpower continues to exert its dominance in the Indian Ocean.
Chinese shipbuilders have begun work on eight subs, which will soon be handed over to its ally in South Asia.
The new vessels will nearly double the number of submarines currently fielded by the Pakistani navy - increasing its underwater force from 10 subs to 18 - and mean it will have more than its rival India, which currently operates 16.
The move, codenamed Project Hangor, is part of Beijing’s continued campaign to check India's influence in the region, Indian news network Zee News reports.
Yamato class is twice as big. It was bigger than QE class carrier. Must have been a huge piece of metal.Singha wrote:for showing flag and initimidation good old BB with 9 x 15" cannons is best, organize friendly passage exercises with navies in IOR rim and fire off these vast guns to impress and awe.....
the power plant can be a modern diesel and no need for so many AA guns...a few boxes of SRSAM, a few modern sensors, good ciws guns.
make these the flagships of the navy like yamato and musashi and use them as training ships rather than aeging tir and leander ships. they have ample room for command staff and C3I control rooms to manage a fleet. plus they are fast ships able to keep up with SSNs and carrier strike groups.
I have stood on the slim tapering rising bow of the USS massachusetts in fall river , MA looking directly at the 6 x cannons and damn were they impressive. each turret is the size of a 3bhk house. marvels of mechanical and electrical engineering even now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleshi ... sachusetts
a half melted shell she fired at the Jean Bart was dug out and kept on deck. each shell is a solid 1.3 tons.
let anyone try a small boat attack against a old BB. the secondary weapons will tear them to shreds.
Lol. That’s an idea but I doubt composites can be made in that amount. A composite battleship might also be prohibitively expensive. The cool thing with steel is it is a commodity unlike composites.Pratyush wrote:The ability to roll steel may be an issue but they are still able to forge composite armour for tanks. Why not use that to armour ship's. To build modern day battle ships.
A bucket of tears for everyone involved in this one. The Bismarck was sunk later with 2000 men lost. Prinz Eugen was torpedoed but survived the war to be an US nuclear target. More han a few of the ships that chased and sank the Bismarck — PoW (as noted), Repulse, Dorsetshire — met their end months later against the Japanese in the Indian Ocean and SCS.Singha wrote:bismark and prinz eugen savagely maul hood and prince of wales. the hood sank, the pow was later sunk by japanese bombers off west coast of malaysia. the prinz eugen was supposed to be the finest warships ever made
We will be outnumbered by whome??? Bakis?Philip wrote:Yes and it will take 7-8 years for P-17As to be commissioned! Pak is getting 4 4K t FFGs in 4 years time from China.We will at that rate be outnumbered by them in the next decade.