Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17650
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chetak » 27 Oct 2018 09:30

Austin wrote:They are both under the guise of anti nuclear stance they want to restrain india becoming a major power in this part of the world , they just toe the west line and try to cover it up with its anti nuclear stance.


+1

They don't want bookha nanga Indians cutting their patta.

g.sarkar
BRFite
Posts: 1649
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby g.sarkar » 27 Oct 2018 10:15

John wrote:^ It has to do with Japan's anti nuclear stance nothing to do with curbing influence.

I know, Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. Japan was traumatized etc., etc. Even today Japanese are dying from cancer caused by these two explosions etc. What happened with this stance when US, Russia and China exploded zillions of Nuclear devices? There may have been some token demonstrations if at all. What about the nuclear programs of has been powers such as UK and France? Going by an anti-nuclear stance Japan should have stopped trade with all these countries. That never happened. The fact is Japan works for the US in being anti-nuclear and in return gets the nuclear umbrella. If Japan wants to collaborate with India, it has to reign in its anti-nuclear activists and accept India's role.
Gautam

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10015
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby arun » 27 Oct 2018 10:37

Singha wrote:Image



:wink: That picture reminds of the rap number Baby Got Back by Sir Mix-A-Lot which has the lines :

I like big butts and I can not lie
You other brothers can't deny
That when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist
And a round thing in your face
You get sprung, want to pull up tough ………………..

For the You Tube Video of the song:

You Tube Clicky

nash
BRFite
Posts: 779
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nash » 27 Oct 2018 22:50

https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/india-and-japan-to-co-develop-unmanned-ground-vehicles-robotics-and-artificial-intelligence/1362502/

As reported by FE Online earlier, the Japanese side had shown interest to participate in the Indian Navy’s Project 75 (I) – building of six diesel-electric submarines. Two Japanese companies were among those had received the RfI from the Indian Navy: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, manufacturers of the ultra-quiet Soryu class submarine.



How true it is? Last I know they are not agreed to sell it.

arvin
BRFite
Posts: 172
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby arvin » 28 Oct 2018 15:42

iirc, japan and navantia didnt respond to the rfi. So we have only 4 contenders here.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5846
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 23:43

India, Russia Sign $950 Million Deal For 2 Guided-Missile Frigates
https://thediplomat.com/2018/10/india-r ... -frigates/

“Sources told [The Economic Times] that while final clearances for the long-pending project came before the summit earlier this month between President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi, the deal was signed last week after price negotiations,” The Economic Times reported on October 29. A follow-on contract for the construction of two additional Admiral Grigorovich-class frigates is expected to be signed in the near future. Notably, neither India nor Russia officially confirmed the signing of any agreement.


The frigates from Russia will be fitted with BrahMos Missiles for the Indian Navy
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... y/1365775/

After getting Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), New Delhi and Moscow have signed agreement to buy two stealth frigates for $ 950 mn -- Admiral Grigorovich-class (Project 11356) or advanced Talwar-class frigates.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5846
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 23:46

^^^^

Admiral Grigorovich Class frigate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_G ... ss_frigate

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 229
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby souravB » 31 Oct 2018 00:54

Angad Singh: Twitter link

IAC-I and Vikramaditya at CSL. Bottom right of the image, DRDO TDV aka Ship 20 can also be seen

Image

DRDO TDV aka Ship 20

Image

John
BRFite
Posts: 1813
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 31 Oct 2018 01:05

Rakesh wrote:India, Russia Sign $950 Million Deal For 2 Guided-Missile Frigates
https://thediplomat.com/2018/10/india-r ... -frigates/

The frigates from Russia will be fitted with BrahMos Missiles for the Indian Navy
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... y/1365775/

IMO i think its best deal thank goodness they decided to postpone the idea of building them locally at the insane $$. It also opens up for possibility of Barak-8 being fitted on the vessels, since these vessels have not been fitted yet.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5846
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 31 Oct 2018 03:12

In the picture that sourav posted...the beam (203 feet) of the Vikrant looks really wide when compared to the beam (196 feet) of the Vikramaditya, despite their actually being a difference of only 7 feet. Perhaps it is has something to do with the Vikrant being significantly shorter in length (860 feet), than the Vikramaditya (930 feet).

After seeing the Vikrant, I am being reminded of this picture that Singha posted.... :mrgreen:

As a side note, can someone advise on the technical challenges - if any - in stretching the Vikrant design? So from the present 40,000 tonnes to a 60K or 65K tonne aircraft carrier.

Singha wrote:Image

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 229
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby souravB » 31 Oct 2018 05:17

We missed the biggest news of the day.
source:
Ministry of Shipping: Twitter link
India's largest Drydock at CSL to
-Build 2nd Indigenous Aircraft Carrier for Indian Navy,
-Tap market potential of large specialized,technologically advanced ships, large dredgers with green technology
-Make Kochi a Major Maritime Hub

Image

It seems like IAC-2 could very well be 950+ ft in length and 210+ ft in width.
Projected finish date Aug 2019. There is a very nice flash video at the source. I am unable to post it here.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2766
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 31 Oct 2018 05:57

Rakesh wrote:In the picture that sourav posted...the beam (203 feet) of the Vikrant looks really wide when compared to the beam (196 feet) of the Vikramaditya, despite their actually being a difference of only 7 feet. Perhaps it is has something to do with the Vikrant being significantly shorter in length (860 feet), than the Vikramaditya (930 feet).

The Vikramaditya is not only longer but it tapers to a much narrower arse than the modern Vikrant design. Not to mention the Vikrant doesn’t have a massive cruiser’s superstructure eating into the middle of the runway.

The Vikrant is a smaller QE in shape, IMHO. It’s beautiful
in form and function. It will be a far more forgiving ship to land on.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2520
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 01 Nov 2018 12:31

Rakesh wrote:There are six SSNs right now, in the planning phase. But the high cost involved of maintaining an all SSN fleet requires the Navy to have SSKs as well. The Soryu has many advantages over the Type 209, Kilo and the Scorpene.

And India does require SSKs to defend from enemies in their littorals. And a SSK is inherently more silent than a SSN. It does not have the reach of a SSN, but that is not required of the SSK. In numerous exercises with Los Angeles Class boats, our Kilos have gotten the better of them every time. That is not because the Los Angeles Class is a bad vessel, but rather that the Kilo is much more quieter.

They do not call a Kilo boat, the black hole for nothing.


Correct. To add, sharing a post I made 1-3-2016 here -

Diesel Electric submarines are very silent when operating in electric batteries. However, speed is very less with batteries. So is endurance. When in transit, or recharging batteries, they are noisier. A DE submarine is a sniper of the deeps. But like every sniper, they're good when nearly motionless. They lose effectiveness when in motion.

Now, nuclear submarines are more noisier because of pumps circulating coolant and steam turbines. All nuclear submarines are capable of high speeds, its the ability to keep noise low at high speed that is critical.

So, for a nuclear submarine to deal with a DE submarine, it has to use active sonar and make high speed interceptor slash & run attacks. If it lingers, it'll be vulnerable to the sniping DE submarine. It also needs the high speed to outrun torpedoes. Even though it'll be noisy at high speeds, the DE submarine wont be able to catch up or keep up with it.

Which is why IN was not euphoric when IN Type 877EKM tracked a US Nuclear Submarine in restricted area in recent Malabar exercises. Had the area not been restricted, the nuclear submarine could've used active sonar over long range and attacked and ran. The DE submarine would not have the speed or endurance under those circumstances.

It is similar to air combat between supersonic and subsonic fighters. In 1965, a Pakistani Starfighter attempted to dogfight with an Indian Mystere and the Starfighter went down. Because the supersonic fighter was less maneuverable than the subsonic fighter. Similarly, in 1971, an IAF MiG-21 attempted to dogfight with a Pakistani Sabre and the MiG-21 was shot down. The supersonic fighter in both cases should have made high speed interception passes instead of attempting to dogfight.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1573
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 01 Nov 2018 14:49

The supersonic fighter in both cases should have made high speed interception passes instead of attempting to dogfight.


^ Tsarkar ji, small doubt re the above.

Was that method of interception forced or pilot error?

As in were the supersonic fighters forced to make the low speed dogfights (AAMs used up/not carried, last moment detection,...)

In the case of the Submarines there is no different close in weapon (like AAMs vs Canon), in that case what is the optimum way for a high speed fire and run intercept. Is it head on or is it first manuever into a tail chase position ?

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2520
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 01 Nov 2018 15:24

Manish_P wrote:Was that method of interception forced or pilot error?

In both cases pilot error caused by instinct. The Starfighter and MiG-21 got the first shot. On missing, they instinctively tried to turn. A faster fighter has higher turning radius than a slower one and the faster fighter has to slow down during the turn. In both cases the Mystere and Sabre on the inner turning radius was able to get them in the gunsight and shoot them down.

Classic case of instinct proving horribly wrong. A better approach would have been to zoom out of range and re-engage at long range.

Manish_P wrote:In the case of the Submarines there is no different close in weapon (like AAMs vs Canon), in that case what is the optimum way for a high speed fire and run intercept. Is it head on or is it first manuever into a tail chase position ?

For a nuclear submarine, use its high speed to quickly approach, make a glancing torpedo attack using active sonar and zoom off before enemy torpedo can catch up. Similar to a horseman doing tent pegging. If missed, still zoom off at high speed. Maneuver must be avoided at all cost against a slower target since it requires one to slow down and the slower submarine will have the advantage.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2520
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 01 Nov 2018 15:27

INS Rana refitted with Revathi radar and C-Pearl ESM/EW system taken from Godavari class frigate
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpT1-GHWwAEw9ni.jpg

INS Sahyadri with Seaking Mk42B
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dpd7H7DXoAEBH8d.jpg

INS Shakti with Seaking Mk42C Commando
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dpd7HJKW0AIkBx0.jpg

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1573
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 01 Nov 2018 16:19

tsarkar wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Was that method of interception forced or pilot error?

In both cases pilot error caused by instinct. The Starfighter and MiG-21 got the first shot. On missing, they instinctively tried to turn. A faster fighter has higher turning radius than a slower one and the faster fighter has to slow down during the turn. In both cases the Mystere and Sabre on the inner turning radius was able to get them in the gunsight and shoot them down.

Classic case of instinct proving horribly wrong. A better approach would have been to zoom out of range and re-engage at long range.


Thank you. I am clearer now about the gist of what you have said.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6937
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Indranil » 02 Nov 2018 01:04

Details of AIP program and current state of development.

DRDO Newsletter Sept'18

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1573
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 02 Nov 2018 12:27

tsarkar wrote:
Manish_P wrote:In the case of the Submarines there is no different close in weapon (like AAMs vs Canon), in that case what is the optimum way for a high speed fire and run intercept. Is it head on or is it first manuever into a tail chase position ?

For a nuclear submarine, use its high speed to quickly approach, make a glancing torpedo attack using active sonar and zoom off before enemy torpedo can catch up. Similar to a horseman doing tent pegging. If missed, still zoom off at high speed. Maneuver must be avoided at all cost against a slower target since it requires one to slow down and the slower submarine will have the advantage.


tsarkar Sir, one request. With your Navy background, can you pls. check this linked post and share your opinion of how accurate this guy's explanations are - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7235&p=2303208#p2303208

(i am not posting the videos here since it has strictly nothing to do with Indian Navy as such)

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2333
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby JTull » 02 Nov 2018 18:50

Indranil wrote:Details of AIP program and current state of development.

DRDO Newsletter Sept'18


Wow, excellent details.

After setting to work, the LBP was trialed by the user from September 2017 to January 2018. The performance of the LBP was found satisfactory... The plant was operated in presence of IN representatives who in turn operated part of the system and expressed satisfaction towards its operability and safety. The primary power train of integrated AIP was, therefore, successfully tested through the LBP.


In the year 2010 when serious activities on the project was started, the Technology Readiness Level (TRL) was just about 2 to 3. As the endurance trials in form and fit prototype get completed in January 2018, the TRL
has risen to 7.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35999
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SaiK » 03 Nov 2018 00:41

The new dock will have a length of 310 m, stepped dock with a width of 75 m at the wider part and 60 m at the narrower part. The depth will be 13 m and a drought of 9.5 m. Currently, CSL has two dry dock facilities. The construction is estimated to be completed in two years.

“With the new dry dock, CSL can build ships of 2,00,000 deadweight tonnes. CSL can manufacture aircraft carriers, LNG vessels, jack-up rigs, drill ships and dredgers.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5846
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 03 Nov 2018 06:25

SaiK: where is the quote from?

Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 467
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Ankit Desai » 03 Nov 2018 07:21

Rakesh wrote:SaiK: where is the quote from?


IDRW

-Ankit

jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 657
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby jaysimha » 03 Nov 2018 09:54

http://www.pib.nic.in/Pressreleaseshare ... ID=1551790

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
02 NOV 2018 9:11PM by PIB Delhi
Indian Navy’s Deep Submergence Rescue Vessel (DSRV) Capability

The Indian Navy has inducted a Submarine Rescue System with a Deep Submergence Rescue Vessel (DSRV) along with associated equipment. This System has a Side Scan Sonar for locating the position of the submarine in distress at sea, providing immediate relief by way of posting Emergency Life Support Containers with the help of Remotely Operated Vehicle (ROV) and thereafter rescuing the crew of the submarine using the DSRV itself. In a submarine accident, rapidity of response is most crucial to safety of life. To ensure early mobilisation, the System has been procured in a Flyaway configuration which permits rapid transportation of the Rescue System from the base to the exact location of the distressed submarine by transportation using air/land/sea vessels.

The Indian DSRV has the capability to rescue personnel from a distressed submarine (DISSUB) up to a depth of 650 m and it is the latest in terms of technology and capabilities. It has been designed and supplied to meet unique requirements of our submarines by M/s James Fishes Defence, UK. We have ordered two Systems which shall be based on the West and East Coast of India respectively to provide redundancy, high operational availability and early response to deal with a submarine contingency.

The Rescue System has recently undergone extensive Sea Trials wherein many records have been set. Our DSRV dived to over 666 m, the Remote Operations Vehicle (ROV) dived to 750m and the Side Scan Sonar dived to 650m. Live undersea matings with different types of submarines along with transfer of personnel from submarine to DSRV has also been achieved, thereby simulating the submarine rescue.

With this capability, India has joined a select league of nations which have this unique capability and we are now in a position to not only provide rescue cover to our own submarines but also to other friendly nations in the IOR and beyond. Our vision is to emerge as a centre of regional excellence for Submarine Rescue Services in line with the stature of our great nation.

The DSRV is likely to be inducted in the Indian Navy by end of this year.



DKS/AC

maz
Webmaster BR
Posts: 334
Joined: 03 Dec 2000 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby maz » 04 Nov 2018 01:51

tsarkar wrote:INS Rana refitted with Revathi radar and C-Pearl ESM/EW system taken from Godavari class frigate
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpT1-GHWwAEw9ni.jpg

I do not think that the EW system aboard the Rana is the C-Pearl nor was it taken from a G-class. The G-class had the SEWS V5 (which may be another name for C-Pearl) but the Rana's EW system antenna elements are different from a SEWS V5.

See another picture of the Rana at Jeju, Korea

Image

The cylindrical antenna is an ESM element - most likely an omni directional antenna - and it is mounted atop another triangular? shaped ESM antenna that appears to be braod band DF antenna that looks a lot like in service DRDO products. I think this is a brand new EW system. It could be the Varuna ESM and/ or Shakti EW system since there are at least two jammers.

Where did the Revathi come from? The Leander trials ship?

maz
Webmaster BR
Posts: 334
Joined: 03 Dec 2000 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby maz » 04 Nov 2018 07:04


John
BRFite
Posts: 1813
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 04 Nov 2018 22:46

tsarkar wrote:INS Rana refitted with Revathi radar and C-Pearl ESM/EW system taken from Godavari class frigate
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpT1-GHWwAEw9ni.jpg


Interesting that they have not been fitted with Barak-1 yet and I don't believe SR SAM is intended for any Rajput class either.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2520
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 05 Nov 2018 18:41

maz wrote:
tsarkar wrote:INS Rana refitted with Revathi radar and C-Pearl ESM/EW system taken from Godavari class frigate
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpT1-GHWwAEw9ni.jpg

I do not think that the EW system aboard the Rana is the C-Pearl nor was it taken from a G-class. The G-class had the SEWS V5 (which may be another name for C-Pearl) but the Rana's EW system antenna elements are different from a SEWS V5.

See another picture of the Rana at Jeju, Korea

Image

The cylindrical antenna is an ESM element - most likely an omni directional antenna - and it is mounted atop another triangular? shaped ESM antenna that appears to be braod band DF antenna that looks a lot like in service DRDO products. I think this is a brand new EW system. It could be the Varuna ESM and/ or Shakti EW system since there are at least two jammers.

Where did the Revathi come from? The Leander trials ship?


Hello Maz!

C-Pearl is the ESM while SEWS is the ECM jammer suite. Both were fitted to Godavaris, Brahmaputras and last two Ranvijay class ships.

It looks like the C-Pearl on the other ships but the element is shorter. The Ellora ESM is boxy as seen on Kolkata & other classes.

Only ESM is mounted on top. The Jammers are mounted lower down.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ercise.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... utra-1.jpg

Revati is replacing obsolete MR-310U Angara and RAWL is replacing obsolete MP-500 Kliver in earlier 3 ships. They are new built radars.

We had a veterans day and I'll post some photos shortly.

Manish - I'll go through the videos and post my comments after Diwali, if its OK with you :-)

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1573
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 06 Nov 2018 00:26

You are welcome to do so anytime, Sir, no hurry at all.

Wish you, and all at BRF, a very happy Deepavali!

The confirmation of the Nuclear triad has made it a very happy one already :D

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5846
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Nov 2018 09:00

tsarkar wrote: To add, sharing a post I made 1-3-2016 here.

Thank you for the reply and for the subsequent replies to Manish as well. Very informative!

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5846
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 07 Nov 2018 03:41

I have moved all Arihant discussions, to the Arihant thread. Please continue there. Thank You.


barath_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 03 Apr 2017 10:40

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby barath_s » 08 Nov 2018 17:49

tsarkar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:There are six SSNs right now, in the planning phase. But the high cost involved of maintaining an all SSN fleet requires the Navy to have SSKs as well. The Soryu has many advantages over the Type 209, Kilo and the Scorpene.

And India does require SSKs to defend from enemies in their littorals. And a SSK is inherently more silent than a SSN. It does not have the reach of a SSN, but that is not required of the SSK. In numerous exercises with Los Angeles Class boats, our Kilos have gotten the better of them every time. That is not because the Los Angeles Class is a bad vessel, but rather that the Kilo is much more quieter.

They do not call a Kilo boat, the black hole for nothing.


Correct. To add, sharing a post I made 1-3-2016 here -

Diesel Electric submarines are very silent when operating in electric batteries. However, speed is very less with batteries. So is endurance. When in transit, or recharging batteries, they are noisier. A DE submarine is a sniper of the deeps. But like every sniper, they're good when nearly motionless. They lose effectiveness when in motion.

Now, nuclear submarines are more noisier because of pumps circulating coolant and steam turbines. All nuclear submarines are capable of high speeds, its the ability to keep noise low at high speed that is critical.

So, for a nuclear submarine to deal with a DE submarine, it has to use active sonar and make high speed interceptor slash & run attacks. If it lingers, it'll be vulnerable to the sniping DE submarine. It also needs the high speed to outrun torpedoes. Even though it'll be noisy at high speeds, the DE submarine wont be able to catch up or keep up with it.

Which is why IN was not euphoric when IN Type 877EKM tracked a US Nuclear Submarine in restricted area in recent Malabar exercises. Had the area not been restricted, the nuclear submarine could've used active sonar over long range and attacked and ran. The DE submarine would not have the speed or endurance under those circumstances.


Diesel Electric submarines are useful for littoral defence; a few are built for extended range. AIP gives DE boats slightly longer endurance/range while submersed. The snorkel can also be used, but only from periscope depth. it renders the sub susceptible to detection in multiple ways.

Nuclear submarine reactors for the last 3 or 4 decades come with passive cooling/natural circulation features. This means that noisy pumps are not needed below a certain speed; the coolant pathways are optimized and thermal gradient drives flow from heat source lower down (reactor) to heat sink higher.. See the S5G reactor, the S8G reactor used in Ohio class, the S9G etc. Of course, one cannot speak for the Arihant's reactor; it is after all a 1st gen Indian one(though with russian consulting) and details may be classified. Above a certain speed/power, the pumps kick in

Thus nuclear reactors have acquired a lot of the characteristics of diesel electric submarines. Earlier nuclear powered submarines also had potential challenges that if they went into a clayey bottom and went silent, the intakes and struts could get covered up/stuck. However this is true of most other submarines also.

it has to use active sonar and make high speed interceptor slash & run attacks


Loud noise and active sonar are like a man flashing a bright torchlight in a dark room. They make him an obvious target for the other man waiting in the dark. This is a good way to get killed.

A diesel electric submarine cannot use its speed underwater to widen the circle where it might be and thereby escape. It cannot stay underwater for very long without surfacing. It cannot easily use speed underwater to get to where it's mission demands it should be, unless the mission comes to it (hence more useful for defence in littoral waters and in restricted box of an exercise)

A nuclear submarine can simply wait it out, move at slow but continuous speed to move out of the area or come back from a different direction, find appropriate layers of sea that don' mix as well - and can help hide any submarine to some extent (eg temp differences,salinity differences - thermoclines, or hope that the underwater geography- eg mountains or sea floor can mask some of the echo - more rare). Once the diesel is forced to come up and charge batteries, it can detect that noise and attack (though it must remain in near sonar contact for it). Or just leave it to other ASW units to detect and finish it off. The nuke can also slip away to perform it's other missions.

Nuclear attack submarine may detect when a ballistic submarine has come to missile launch depth and is making preparations to do so; and then use high speed sprint to get there and hopefully kill the ballistic submarine before it ends civilization. (ie either before the first nuclear missile launch if lucky,or a later one if good)

Submarines can also use the intermittent sprint and then hide approach - eg sprint under cover of noise or to get out of the kill zone/widen search area and then creep/stay - only to pick up speed when your risk of detection is minimal again. Obviously nuke and de will have different constraints, and situation with surface and planes will also change the trade-offs/actions

Situational awareness is the key in sub vs sub.

If you have excellent quieting measures, design,manufacture, operational excellence, and maintain passive sonar listening techniques,a modern western sub can be so quiet that it may not know that another is there (see the collision of the british and french ssbn submarines)

But if your passive sonar is better, or you are able to make more effective use of your equipment and of the sea conditions, or if your quieting is better - you have an advantage.


Generally the western nations that build nukes also have significant electronics(see sonar) and technological advantages. (ie If you are investing that much ,why not splurge for good sonar etc) The russians are not far behind. The first generations of chinese nukes are noisy, but the latest generation is supposed to be good and be able to use towed array sonar etc...India - we won't know; we're hardly likely to get an unbiased/objective picture in open sources now.

You can try to use high speed and active sonar - eg if time is of the essence, but can you outrun a torpedo aimed at you ?

You don't get super excited about DE kills in exercises, because in exercises, the rules are known up front. There is a restricted area and thus you can get your kills in - in exercises everybody kills each other. Swedish,Australian,Soviet, and British boats have 'killed' US carriers.But equally, you don't know how often the sub hs been killed back]

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2520
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 08 Nov 2018 18:44

barath_s wrote:but can you outrun a torpedo aimed at you?

Yes

barath_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 03 Apr 2017 10:40

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby barath_s » 08 Nov 2018 19:54

tsarkar wrote:
barath_s wrote:but can you outrun a torpedo aimed at you?

Yes


Maybe you an outrun the 35knot FC17 torpedo designed in 1971 and used on the Agosta class subs

How about the 80 knot royal navy spearfish torpedo, meant to take out the high speed Alfa submarines ?

Or >65 knot max Yu-6 chinese torpedo reverse engineered from the USMk 48. (itself > 55 knot )

You just have to dodge Russia's supercavitating 200 knot Shkval (not very maneouvrable,not very likely to be used against India)

But seeing as the fastest submarine was the 40-45 knot (in short bursts) Alfa; and more nuke subs are in the range of 0-35 knots....


....You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?'

John
BRFite
Posts: 1813
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 09 Nov 2018 00:44

barath_s wrote:How about the 80 knot royal navy spearfish torpedo, meant to take out the high speed Alfa submarines ?


80 knot speed greatly reduces its range so this gets back to similar debate about the SAM range in tail chase mode. Sure the torpedo can catch up to the submarine but to do that the torpedo has to be fired at much closer range rather than max firing range. Not to mention it will also be more susceptible to decoy and easier to detect while traveling at a higher speed.

barath_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 03 Apr 2017 10:40

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby barath_s » 09 Nov 2018 00:55

Amusement factor aside, it would depend on the mission and other factors.

Torpedoes are indeed faster than submarines, but range matters and a nuke sub has unlimited range and energy while a torpedo does not.

If you know the range of your opponent's torpedoes you could use your speed to get into range, fire and move out, hopefully before you are targeted and that your weapon ranges are greater than or equal to theirs. Extreme range can reduce probability of kill in some situations (eg chase, maneuver, guidance cut, countermeasures). And unlike fighters, E-M theory doesn't work well the same way, you don't transfer all that much energy to your own torpedoes by.speeding.

The point being that if you are a nuke and adopt these tactics, you have abandoned your natural advantages of endurance for this risk.

You might do it if you are preventing a boomer from ending civilization. You might do it if you have to get rid of the DE sub because time is a factor - if the de sub is in the way of the fleet you are escorting or you have to make a rendezvous - eg for picking up special forces etc.

But this also begs the question - how did you know the de sub was there in the first place. Or Why not simply evade and continue on. Or how do you know there aren't two or different opponents....Or...

Each of which might be the right answer in a particular situation..

And mutual kill can also happen. Which tends to be a bad trade-off for the guy encashing his nuke for an opposing dE sub
Last edited by barath_s on 09 Nov 2018 15:08, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63355
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 10:49

The slash n run tactics cannot mimic that of a aircraft before high azimuth radar or rf datalink is not present to update the running torpedo

When do you cut the guidance wire and turn n burn in the ssn?

If not Immediately the target sub will detect your torp and fire back down same axis as we often see in films torps crossing each other in middle of a shootout

Its a tougher game underwater imo

barath_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 03 Apr 2017 10:40

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby barath_s » 09 Nov 2018 15:16

Agree it's tougher underwater. In fact,there has only been 1 underwater sub-to-sub kill in history. radar is attenuated, as are lasers and other communication, energy-maneovrability theory doesn't apply as much...

Torpedoes differ, many have full capabilities such as active sonar,search modes etc of their own. But it's slightly easier to spoof a torpedo than a torpedo+its submarine with expert crew and additional systems. Multiple torpedoes may be slightly more challenging.

And actually if you have wire guidance, you might prefer using the torp's active sonar (and seeing what it sees) to using your own , if it comes to it.

Of course, the question is - does the mission warrant this kind of risk ?

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2292
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Katare » 10 Nov 2018 00:39

You shouldn’t fire your torpedo until the target is within no escape zone of it. In this case a target can’t out run a torpedo.

If its fired in marginal zones of engagement a fast ship would have a shot at out ranging the torpedo.

Torpedoes have roughly twice the speed of ship’s top speed which is same as AAM and fighter aircrafts.

So largely same tactics and limitation would apply.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dadhwal, gaurav.p, sgopal, Vips and 38 guests