Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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titash
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby titash » 17 Nov 2018 03:43

Philip wrote:
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/imps ... te-emerge/

The accompanying pic. of the ASW corvette is rather disappointing. A little 30mm "popgun",incapable of inflicting heavy damage on a surfaced wounded sub,and the absence of a heli-deck,easily achievable within the 750t size,which would enable ASW helos to operate from the corvettes from their shore bases,since these corvettes are meant only for inshore coastal,shallow water ASW ops. While the specs. say that a TAS may be provided,and that LWT torpedoes are aboard,just one ASW RBU appears to be the bare minimum.What these corvettes lack which are the approx. size of our erstwhile Nanuchka class missile corvettes and almost double the size of the Pauk ASW corvettes that we operated,are a better ASW sensor and weaponry package.The Pauks carried a larger gun,two sizes of TTs and has a VDS at the stern. Since half are to be built at GSL,we look forward to that design to appear,perhaps it may be an improvement.


The 30 mm gun is reliable, of indigenous manufacture, and cheap by implication due to its proliferation across Navy's WJ-FACs/ICG OPVs. Slaved to an electro-optical sight, it can easily take out surfaced submarine periscopes, ESMs, Sonar Domes (polymer) and ensure a mission kill. I'm not sure if it has enough penetrating power to breach the pressure hull, but it can damage everything else. With incendiary tracer rounds things may get more interesting.

These vessels will be used to rapidly lay down a ASW mine barrier across important shipping harbors and ingress/egress channels. Mines are the biggest killers of sneaky submarines (even more than ASW mortars historically, I believe) in confined or shallow waters. Hence the larger hull size than the Pauks. The "Abhay" SONAR which is optimized for small sized shallow water craft, and the new LFDS SONAR for the Dhruv ALHs will probably find their way on these craft...they are too small to deploy full sized VDS/TAS or HMS kit.

Once detected, a single RBU 6000 or LWTs are good enough for sneaky subs on batteries. These craft will be so cheap and numerous that it won't make sense for the submarine to consider deploying Harpoons/Exocets against them.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 17 Nov 2018 13:14

Here is a better angled image of P17A model compared to cgi.

Differences:
Railings, which is causing the most eye burn. if someone does a photoshop without it, the eye burn will reduce.
Search radar: Bel now has AESA search radar.
Side layout: Changed for ops reasons. Second eye burn. Also notice the angle of the layout. It is not parallel.
Radar mast. It would looked nice to have the pyramid, however better to stick with what we know. Moreover the mast base would have been massive.

Not drastically different from cgi.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 17 Nov 2018 19:50


The 30 mm gun is reliable, of indigenous manufacture, and cheap by implication due to its proliferation across Navy's WJ-FACs/ICG OPVs. Slaved to an electro-optical sight, it can easily take out surfaced submarine periscopes, ESMs, Sonar Domes (polymer) and ensure a mission kill. I'm not sure if it has enough penetrating power to breach the pressure hull, but it can damage everything else. With incendiary tracer rounds things may get more interesting.

I don’t mind 30mm gun my concern is that it would be more prudent to have something Ak-630 or even 40 or 57mm guns (if Oto 76mm is too big). Rather than some variant of Medak gun. Going with something like BAe 57mm gun offers better accuracy, can switch rounds quickly as you highlighted and also ability to engage aerial and missile targets (need some defense against Agosta firing off couple of Exocet at them). It just seems like we are cutting corners again.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 17 Nov 2018 21:47

why would a sub actually surface to fight a ASW FAC ? it will surface when its badly damaged enough not to be able to get away submerged or fire a torpedo or ASM at the FAC. else it will just use its snorkel in worst case.

in that context the real weapons in play are the RBU and the LWT not the gun.

and since modern SSK lacks any deck gun, it will wallow helplessly if it surfaces with nothing but machine guns brought up by the crew, as seen in the hollywood film "battleship" a salvo of RBU will destroy the sub - the alien uses such weapons on the ship passing by. our 30mm cannon will sweep the decks out to 1km atleast and destroy the periscope and snorkel. dont forget its similar to a BMP2 cannon and various fuses are available.

its going to be a rare case of a sub in trouble coming up to fight. mostly it will sneak away and retain its stealth.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 18 Nov 2018 00:48

Singha not sure who you are replying but I would much rather a prefer a gun that can double as a point defense air defense system given the lack of SAM system and 40mm gun is not entirely that expensive or heavier compared to Medak.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 18 Nov 2018 04:14

The RuN still use the '80s era RPK-6 Vodopad which has a 60nm range ASW missile fired from std. 533mm tubes.Any vessel with these std. TTs can do so.A v.useful weapon.This is a " torpedo- missile", which is launched lkkd anh rrgular torpedo.After a short distance from the ship it ignites a booster, takes off like a missile and on reaching the target era releases its LW 400mm ASW torpedo.

An advanced version fires the Klub/ Kalibir version.
My two key points were a larger DP gun for gen. purposes plus an open heli-deck from which a light ASW helo can operate from and below which are housed the TAS sonar, and UUVs which can sniff out enemy subs.
This will allow the corvette to independentally triangulate the enemy's subs location using its own hull- mounted sonar, the ASW helo's LW dipping sonar plus that of the UUV, without relying upon other assets.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Avik » 18 Nov 2018 09:36

I would much rather a prefer a gun that can double as a point defense


the FAC will very likely have a couple of MANPAD launchers on board. These have longer range and have the flexibility to be deployed both in the prow and the bow, rather than a fixed mount gun system.
The 30 mm Medak gun + 2-3 MANPAD launchers on board actually seems to be a better option (deployment flexibility and mount weight) than a 40/60 mm fixed mount

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 18 Nov 2018 10:28

Inshore asw ships dont need to worry much about air attack

Every solution has to be tailored to cost

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 18 Nov 2018 21:58

Singha wrote:Inshore asw ships dont need to worry much about air attack

Every solution has to be tailored to cost

Singha it is not air attack but more of missile attack one of the biggest threats is Agosta firing off a few Exocet. Unlike Pauk class these vessel little to no defense against that even if you mount some manpads. Considering even ak-630 are license produced at dirt chip prices very odd choice to cut corners there.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby titash » 18 Nov 2018 22:07

John wrote:
Singha wrote:Inshore asw ships dont need to worry much about air attack

Every solution has to be tailored to cost

Singha it is not air attack but more of missile attack one of the biggest threats is Agosta firing off a few Exocet. Unlike Pauk class these vessel little to no defense against that even if you mount some manpads. Considering even ak-630 are license produced at dirt chip prices very odd choice to cut corners there.


But John, the question is will these inshore ASW craft (operating < 100 miles from shore) ever see that Exocet/Harpoon threat? Will a submarine resting on the seabed or running in silent mode with the hope of ambushing an IN Carrier/VLCC Tanker contemplate a strike against these small vessels in restricted depth waters? Would that not give away its position and virtually guarantee a counter strike by MPAs/ASW Helos within minutes? Specially with NCW and sensor fusion...

Plus it's cheaper to increase range & endurance with a larger hull size - steel is cheap and air is free - but the cost goes up exponentially with the addition of AAW armament. You will need SA-N-5/Igla MANPADS and an AK-630 plus Radar/EO (TMX tracker) and a closed loop drive/control system and combat management system. Multiply that by 16 boats and the $$$ add up.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 18 Nov 2018 23:55

But John, the question is will these inshore ASW craft (operating < 100 miles from shore) ever see that Exocet/Harpoon threat? Will a submarine resting on the seabed or running in silent mode with the hope of ambushing an IN Carrier/VLCC Tanker contemplate a strike against these small vessels in restricted depth waters? Would that not give away its position and virtually guarantee a counter strike by MPAs/ASW Helos within minutes? Specially with NCW and sensor fusion...


Unless you have AEW platforms ( P-8i, UAVs or Ka-31) operational that can detect missile launch available to support some ASW vessels ( which I think is very unlikely) SSK can be able to evade ASW efforts. Chances of ASW helo picking up missile launch ( I doubt they can first of all even spot a missile at that range) is not very likely even you have enough to run 24/7 sorties.

That’s one of prime advantages of AShW with Exocet you now have search an over 10k sq Km if missile launches are not detected immediately. Easier said than done.

As for why they go after given the range involved it would be hard for SSK to distinguish the exact vessel. Sinking any vessel would be win for PN based on how conflict is shaping up, besides can’t operate them under that assumption they won’t go after it.

Yes cost of incorporating Ak-630 or small caliber gun system can add up ( even Oto SR 76mm costs only around 10mill) but consider the billions wasted due to construction delays there are other places to cut cost.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 19 Nov 2018 05:33

A PN sub would be unlikely to waste a sub-launched missile at a small corvette , but instead use a torpedo of which it would have far more in its arsenal.But even in the case if such an attack it would give away its presence, unlikely for a titbit. Lurking close to shore like the Ghazi, it will be hunting for bigger game, our carriers and capital ships.A smart sub capt. lurking outside our major bases waiting for a kill,will let these "appetisers" like the ASW corvettes pass by and wait for the main course.So will our subs! Therefore unlike ocean-going corvettes with much higher endurance like the P-28s-actually light FFGs of the size of our former Leanders, which will be attacked with missiles from the surface, sub- surface and air, the need for a sophisticated missile defence is unnecessary.

The prime task for the corvette is ASW and the greater its ability to do that the better will it be.A heli-deck is vital for it to operate ASW helos which as said earlier allows for an extra assets in detecting and tracking the sub.With the vessel's own TAS trailing at distance and its hull-mounted sonar, it would be able to get 3 coordinates to zero in onto the sub and plot an attack using the best option or multiple coordinated attacks from the vessel's weaponry as well as torpedo attacks by the helo.

There are a few good pieces on ASW on the continental shelf.The Arabian Sea shelf is shallower than that of the Bay of Bengal .This beggars a Q.Are these inshore " shallow water" ASW corvettes specifically meant mainly for defending our coastline in the Arabian Sea or on both seaboards?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SSridhar » 19 Nov 2018 07:09

Philip wrote:The Arabian Sea shelf is shallower than that of the Bay of Bengal .This beggars a Q.Are these inshore " shallow water" ASW corvettes specifically meant mainly for defending our coastline in the Arabian Sea or on both seaboards?

The Continental Shelf is three to five times wider on the Arabian Sea side, no doubt. Yet, on the BoB side, it is not less than 50 Kms wide.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby titash » 20 Nov 2018 02:40

Philip wrote:A PN sub would be unlikely to waste a sub-launched missile at a small corvette , but instead use a torpedo of which it would have far more in its arsenal.But even in the case if such an attack it would give away its presence, unlikely for a titbit. Lurking close to shore like the Ghazi, it will be hunting for bigger game, our carriers and capital ships.A smart sub capt. lurking outside our major bases waiting for a kill,will let these "appetisers" like the ASW corvettes pass by and wait for the main course.So will our subs! Therefore unlike ocean-going corvettes with much higher endurance like the P-28s-actually light FFGs of the size of our former Leanders, which will be attacked with missiles from the surface, sub- surface and air, the need for a sophisticated missile defence is unnecessary.

The prime task for the corvette is ASW and the greater its ability to do that the better will it be.A heli-deck is vital for it to operate ASW helos which as said earlier allows for an extra assets in detecting and tracking the sub.With the vessel's own TAS trailing at distance and its hull-mounted sonar, it would be able to get 3 coordinates to zero in onto the sub and plot an attack using the best option or multiple coordinated attacks from the vessel's weaponry as well as torpedo attacks by the helo.

There are a few good pieces on ASW on the continental shelf.The Arabian Sea shelf is shallower than that of the Bay of Bengal .This beggars a Q.Are these inshore " shallow water" ASW corvettes specifically meant mainly for defending our coastline in the Arabian Sea or on both seaboards?


Check out the INS Khukri (the one that was sunk in 1971) and the Type 14 "frigate" class in general. A good 1200 tons - much larger than the planned IN ships - with ocean going capability.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Khukri_(F149)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwood-class_frigate

The armament was actually very much in line with what we see on this boat. 40 mm bofors guns + Limbo ASW mortars + HWT tubes that were later removed from most ships.

It almost seems like the Russian Pauks crammed in as much weaponery as possible at the cost of crew comfort and endurance whereas the Indian/British designs seem to prioritize the opposite...good endurance + sensor fit with a reliable weapon system + reloads from a large magazine.

Phillip - you may actually see a helipad I fancy - one that caters to refueling smaller 5T helicopters, since it doesn't really add much topweight. Also I think these will primarily be active sonar operations with not much need for triangulation in a small search/kill zone. These will mostly be used for inshore harbor defence, and escorting the nuclear subs in and out of Vizag, as opposed to oceangoing hunter killer roles like the P28

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ramana » 20 Nov 2018 02:56

Titash, Also the volume of fire from the 30mm vs the 40 mm and 76 mm should be considered.
And the 30 mm has AP round? or HEI?


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby dinesh_kimar » 20 Nov 2018 19:56

^ ok did some searching on the 30 mm gun.

Apparently, it's an AA gun called 2A42, with rate of fire of 550 rounds per minute.

It was modified by Russia for the BMP, and the Medak version called CRN-91 fires HE shells, apart from AA rounds.
Has 2 seperate automatic belt feeds in the cupola.

Features/benefits:
- small littoral ships
-Commander can fire within 5 km of ship / fire warning shots close to hostile vessel, which isn't possible with a cruise missile.
- A gun ship is 2000 times cheaper than a missile firing ship.
- anti piracy missions
- patrol duties
- escort of merchant shipping,
- point defence against aviation/ cruise missiles (2000-4000 m)
- intimidation of non naval ships like tanker/cargo/ferry,etc.

It has remote weapon cupola, and is combat proven, with 3 successful kills in anti piracy missions, 2 by India and one by Seychelles (donated boat by Indian Navy).

It cannot be used against a submarine, as pointed out above. Maybe the RBU 6000 system can be fitted for a cost effective option.

It's ideal for small operations, where the OTO 76 mm gun would be:
- too expensive or
- too bulky to fit into limited hull volume.

Weapon choice Looks ok , like Old Monk rum, cheap and best.

* added later
- Shipunov 2A42 is the name of the gun

- L-70 40 mm was once a good choice, but no longer preferred now by any navy, no idea why.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 20 Nov 2018 21:22

L-70 40 mm was once a good choice, but no longer preferred now by any navy, no idea why.

Bofors (BAe) 40mm gun is offered for export and 40 MK4 recently won an contract with Brazilian navy but it faces stiff competes ironically from BAe which also offers a 57mm gun which offers a comparable rate of fire with better range.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby titash » 20 Nov 2018 22:45

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ ok did some searching on the 30 mm gun.

Apparently, it's an AA gun called 2A42, with rate of fire of 550 rounds per minute.

It was modified by Russia for the BMP, and the Medak version called CRN-91 fires HE shells, apart from AA rounds.
Has 2 seperate automatic belt feeds in the cupola.

Features/benefits:
- small littoral ships
-Commander can fire within 5 km of ship / fire warning shots close to hostile vessel, which isn't possible with a cruise missile.
- A gun ship is 2000 times cheaper than a missile firing ship.
- anti piracy missions
- patrol duties
- escort of merchant shipping,
- point defence against aviation/ cruise missiles (2000-4000 m)
- intimidation of non naval ships like tanker/cargo/ferry,etc.

It has remote weapon cupola, and is combat proven, with 3 successful kills in anti piracy missions, 2 by India and one by Seychelles (donated boat by Indian Navy).

It cannot be used against a submarine, as pointed out above. Maybe the RBU 6000 system can be fitted for a cost effective option.

It's ideal for small operations, where the OTO 76 mm gun would be:
- too expensive or
- too bulky to fit into limited hull volume.

Weapon choice Looks ok , like Old Monk rum, cheap and best.

* added later
- Shipunov 2A42 is the name of the gun

- L-70 40 mm was once a good choice, but no longer preferred now by any navy, no idea why.


Thanks for digging it out Dinesh.

Ramana - it has both AP and HEI Frag, but the gun is intended for use against soft(er) skinned land vehicles at lower ranges. It cannot function as an AA weapon.

I think the thought process here is:
1) we will never go to war, in which case the 76mm gun and AK-630 are overkill. The vessel will spend a lot of time on patrol and anti-smuggler ops for which the CRN-91 30mm is adequate
2) if we do go to war, then the inshore harbor defence role calls for mine-laying as a primary defensive ASW role which the larger hull can support
3) if an enemy SSK does penetrate the mine barrier, then LWTs and RBU-6000 mated to an active sonar will be the most useful weapon with high kill probability. No need for long range HWTs because of shallow water close-range work
4) i'm still disinclined to agree with John; I think the probability of getting shot at with Exocet or Harpoon is quite low for stealth reasons (when you're that close to the coast and in range of shore-based air support) and there is no need for Anti-missile equipment.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rupak » 21 Nov 2018 01:57

The shallow water ASW craft were an idea that Admiral Nirmal Verma got on a visit to Turkey. What he essentially wanted was a cheap inshore/harbour defence vessel equipped with off the shelf commerial sonar and twin LWT which could be built in large numbers. The vessels are not meant to venture far from home.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 21 Nov 2018 02:43

How I so hope the smaller ships were given to private shipyard and PSU shipyard concentrate on bigger ships.

Now their resources will be diverted to built these ships, effecting the construction of capital ships.

Why is GRSE getting in to building smaller ships, when it should be concentrating fully on P17A? :(

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ramana » 21 Nov 2018 02:47

titash, 30mm AP is very effective. Can pierce light armor. So can take on surfaced subs too.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 21 Nov 2018 02:55

Rupak wrote:The shallow water ASW craft were an idea that Admiral Nirmal Verma got on a visit to Turkey. What he essentially wanted was a cheap inshore/harbour defence vessel equipped with off the shelf commerial sonar and twin LWT which could be built in large numbers. The vessels are not meant to venture far from home.

I assume it was Tuzla class vessels that caught his eye. Ironically they armed with Oto 40mm gun which i was hoping would arm the ASW that are currently planned :D. Cheap and fairly heavily armed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuzla-class_patrol_boat

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby maz » 21 Nov 2018 12:51

Another idea for a cheap, manned ASW platform for harbor defense is something along the lines of this:
https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/couach-developpe-un-patrouilleur-pour-la-lutte-asm-cotiere

SHM Shipcare's 25m ISV design could be the basis for a 28-30m long composite hulled platform with one or two triple torpedo tubes, and maybe a lighter version of a RBU or regular depth charges along with a commercial towed array sonar.

I think that USVs - the Seagull?? - are also going to be employed in this role so maybe there is a plan in place. A manned-unmanned solution is the best bet for ensuring persistent ASW coverage of critical areas.

50 of these smaller 28-30m craft and similar numbers of USVs would be a relatively cheap way to ensure a good USW capability.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 21 Nov 2018 13:20

Rupak wrote:The shallow water ASW craft were an idea that Admiral Nirmal Verma got on a visit to Turkey. What he essentially wanted was a cheap inshore/harbour defence vessel equipped with off the shelf commerial sonar and twin LWT which could be built in large numbers. The vessels are not meant to venture far from home.


Aren't these ships supposed to be a supplement to the Abhay class and cheaper complement to kamoratta class.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Nov 2018 13:26

These are very good idea, small and cheap in numbers for coastal ASW defence, no need to make these expensive, our own version of Chinese type 50's, while Kamkorta's etc will do the hunting.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 22 Nov 2018 00:17

The deal for Grigorovich to be built in GSL has been signed. I am not fan of it, 500 million for assistance and material + more for equipment and construction seems bit hard to swallow and not sure the wisdom in building a 20 yr old design locally now. It is what it is but at least getting 2 fully built vessels for a billion as part of previous deal.


https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... adNTI.html

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 22 Nov 2018 00:26

John wrote:The deal for Grigorovich to be built in GSL has been signed. I am not fan of it, 500 million for assistance and material + more for equipment and construction seems bit hard to swallow and not sure the wisdom in building a 20 yr old design locally now. It is what it is but at least getting 2 fully built vessels for a billion as part of previous deal.


https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... adNTI.html


probably part of the new Akula deal

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kartik » 22 Nov 2018 00:35

Another source for the $500 million deal that has been signed with Russia for the Admiral Grigorivich class frigates to be built at GSL

India signs USD 500 million deal to built 2 Russian stealth frigates

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has signed a USD500-million deal with Russia to licence-build two Admiral Grigorovich (Project 11356M)-class stealth frigates for the Indian Navy (IN) at the state-owned Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL).

Indian officials told Jane's on 20 November that the inter-governmental agreement signed with Russian export agency Rosoboronexport entails the transfer of technology to GSL to build the two 124.8 m-long vessels.

GSL Managing Director Rear Admiral Shekhar Mittal (retd) was quoted by the Press Trust of India as saying that construction of the warships is scheduled to begin in 2020, with the first platform expected to be delivered in 2026, followed by the second a year later.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Khalsa » 22 Nov 2018 01:20

^^^ Wait
I am just catching up on the Gigoros
For 500 MIllion

We are getting 2 almost built frigates from Russia and License Building 2.
So 4 in total ?

Apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick chaps

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 22 Nov 2018 02:51

Khalsa wrote:^^^ Wait
I am just catching up on the Gigoros
For 500 MIllion

We are getting 2 almost built frigates from Russia and License Building 2.
So 4 in total ?

Apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick chaps


No, it is 1 billion for first deal which is two vessels built in Russia and 1/2 billion for 2 vessels in GSL for supply of design and parts. This doesn’t include the GSL construction cost and other indigenous equipment for them to be built here ( so if I am betting it will end up over billion each..).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Ankit Desai » 22 Nov 2018 04:38

Kartik wrote:Another source for the $500 million deal that has been signed with Russia for the Admiral Grigorivich class frigates to be built at GSL

India signs USD 500 million deal to built 2 Russian stealth frigates
......



Delivery is in 2026. 8 years from the signing date. I think VERY late. I wonder why did they sign it ?

-Ankit

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 22 Nov 2018 15:01

Ankit Desai wrote:
Kartik wrote:Another source for the $500 million deal that has been signed with Russia for the Admiral Grigorivich class frigates to be built at GSL

India signs USD 500 million deal to built 2 Russian stealth frigates
......



Delivery is in 2026. 8 years from the signing date. I think VERY late. I wonder why did they sign it ?

-Ankit


The construction is to begin at GSL in 2020. So 6 years for the first ship and second 1 year later. The ones built at GSL will end up costing us anywhere between 25 to 35% more then the russian built ones.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 22 Nov 2018 20:38

The construction is to begin at GSL in 2020. So 6 years for the first ship and second 1 year later. The ones built at GSL will end up costing us anywhere between 25 to 35% more then the russian built ones.



Where are you getting the cost figures from? So far only 500 million deal with Russia has been signed, construction costs for GSL and any other equipment costs are still pending. I have seen estimates of cost allocation as high as billion+ per vessel (incl Russian deal). Which is double the cost for initial two vessels being bought outright.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SajeevJino » 24 Nov 2018 10:35

I've no idea why we signed that Talwar deal, its okay to buy those Talwars for 8000cr and another 1000 cr for Engines from Ukraine, But why we spend another 3500 cr for know how to build and pays another 13,000 cr to GSL for two more Talwars , Here is a rough calculation according to inputs from ToI https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-russia-ink-deal-for-construction-of-two-guided-missile-stealth-frigates/articleshow/66711542.cms

1. unfinished Talwars from Russia - 8000 cr
2. ToT cost for Talwars - 3500 cr
3. Payment for GSL for 2 more Talwars - 13,000 cr
4. Zoryu Engines for Talwars - 1000 cr

So total of 25,500 cr for four Talwars without ASW Helicopters , so each Talwar costs around 6400cr .

well Shivallik is more modern, and Indian design plus lower costs , each costs around 2300cr , even if we calculate inflation value, it wont go beyond 3000cr , well more modern P17A costs around 7500cr

So lets see whats the reason for the high cost, as usual , shadow cost of ATV design, and Russia is our master so we need to chill him , thats why we paying

are we idiots are dumbass

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 24 Nov 2018 10:48

SajeevJino wrote:I've no idea why we signed that Talwar deal, its okay to buy those Talwars for 8000cr and another 1000 cr for Engines from Ukraine, But why we spend another 3500 cr for know how to build and pays another 13,000 cr to GSL for two more Talwars , Here is a rough calculation according to inputs from ToI https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-russia-ink-deal-for-construction-of-two-guided-missile-stealth-frigates/articleshow/66711542.cms

1. unfinished Talwars from Russia - 8000 cr
2. ToT cost for Talwars - 3500 cr
3. Payment for GSL for 2 more Talwars - 13,000 cr
4. Zoryu Engines for Talwars - 1000 cr

So total of 25,500 cr for four Talwars without ASW Helicopters , so each Talwar costs around 6400cr .

well Shivallik is more modern, and Indian design plus lower costs , each costs around 2300cr , even if we calculate inflation value, it wont go beyond 3000cr , well more modern P17A costs around 7500cr

So lets see whats the reason for the high cost, as usual , shadow cost of ATV design, and Russia is our master so we need to chill him , thats why we paying

are we idiots are dumbass


I’d like to say it is because of jobs. But we could have built two Shivaliks or two P17As to create local jobs. It doesn’t sound like it will come that much sooner. We are expecting all 7 of the P17As by 2025.

I can’t think of a damn reason. I hope Natasha was worth it to that babu.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Austin » 24 Nov 2018 11:34

SajeevJino wrote:I've no idea why we signed that Talwar deal, its okay to buy those Talwars for 8000cr and another 1000 cr for Engines from Ukraine, But why we spend another 3500 cr for know how to build and pays another 13,000 cr to GSL for two more Talwars , Here is a rough calculation according to inputs from ToI https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-russia-ink-deal-for-construction-of-two-guided-missile-stealth-frigates/articleshow/66711542.cms

1. unfinished Talwars from Russia - 8000 cr
2. ToT cost for Talwars - 3500 cr
3. Payment for GSL for 2 more Talwars - 13,000 cr
4. Zoryu Engines for Talwars - 1000 cr

So total of 25,500 cr for four Talwars without ASW Helicopters , so each Talwar costs around 6400cr .

well Shivallik is more modern, and Indian design plus lower costs , each costs around 2300cr , even if we calculate inflation value, it wont go beyond 3000cr , well more modern P17A costs around 7500cr

So lets see whats the reason for the high cost, as usual , shadow cost of ATV design, and Russia is our master so we need to chill him , thats why we paying

are we idiots are dumbass


Total cost of 2 Talwar is 900 million USD including engine and cost of ship, there is no tot as such all you get is ship design and IN DND already has it and they were involved in the design in the first deal itself

The earlier deal in 1998 costs around 900 million for 3 ship

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby darshhan » 24 Nov 2018 11:56

SajeevJino wrote:I've no idea why we signed that Talwar deal, its okay to buy those Talwars for 8000cr and another 1000 cr for Engines from Ukraine, But why we spend another 3500 cr for know how to build and pays another 13,000 cr to GSL for two more Talwars , Here is a rough calculation according to inputs from ToI https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-russia-ink-deal-for-construction-of-two-guided-missile-stealth-frigates/articleshow/66711542.cms

1. unfinished Talwars from Russia - 8000 cr
2. ToT cost for Talwars - 3500 cr
3. Payment for GSL for 2 more Talwars - 13,000 cr
4. Zoryu Engines for Talwars - 1000 cr

So total of 25,500 cr for four Talwars without ASW Helicopters , so each Talwar costs around 6400cr .

well Shivallik is more modern, and Indian design plus lower costs , each costs around 2300cr , even if we calculate inflation value, it wont go beyond 3000cr , well more modern P17A costs around 7500cr

So lets see whats the reason for the high cost, as usual , shadow cost of ATV design, and Russia is our master so we need to chill him , thats why we paying

are we idiots are dumbass


The only saving grace is that out of 25500 cr total value, 13000 cr is being given to GSL which is Indian. So almost 50% is spent here in the country itself.

But the important question is " what is so special about talwar class that we need its TOT? ". That too for more than Rs 3000 cr. I mean this is not nuke submarine or hypersonic technology where we are deficient and we need handholding.

Infact we are very much capable of designing most classes of surface ships by ourselves. So what is being really brought to the table here?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby abhik » 24 Nov 2018 14:51

chola wrote:I’d like to say it is because of jobs. But we could have built two Shivaliks or two P17As to create local jobs. It doesn’t sound like it will come that much sooner. We are expecting all 7 of the P17As by 2025.

I can’t think of a damn reason. I hope Natasha was worth it to that babu.


I don't think the fact that it is going to be built in Goa is a coincident - was probably the sweetener that sealed the deal.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 24 Nov 2018 14:57

$500 million is not only for ToT. Some of the parts of the ship will also be included.


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