Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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chola
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 07 Jul 2019 13:22

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/india-seeks-to-buy-2-2-billion-warships-to-meet-china-challenge/articleshow/70034247.cms

India seeks to buy $2.2 billion warships to meet China challenge

The Modi govt on Monday asked seven shipyards to submit proposals for the construction of six missile warships and other smaller vessels worth 150 billion rupees, the Ministry of Defence said.

By Bloomberg | Jul 02, 2019, 08.25 AM IST

By N. C. Bipindra
India sought bids for purchase of warships and support vessels for its navy and coast guard as it ramps up security of its maritime border in the Indian Ocean region.

The Narendra Modi government on Monday asked seven shipyards to submit proposals for the construction of six missile warships and other smaller vessels worth 150 billion rupees ($2.2 billion), the Ministry of Defence said in a statement. The tender includes eight fast patrol vessels, 12 hovercrafts and eight missile-cum-ammunition barges.

The shipbuilders invited include private shipyards Larsen & Toubro Ltd. and Reliance Naval & Engineering Ltd., apart from the state-run Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd., Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Ltd., Goa Shipyard Ltd., Hindustan Shipyard Ltd. and Cochin Shipyard Ltd., people with knowledge of the matter said. They asked not to be identified citing rules.


Anyone with an idea as to what a "missile-cum-ammunition barge" is? Sounds interesting.

No mention of phoren firms so all indigenous effort? On the FACs, more Vikrams for CG? Or something new? Maybe for regular navy?

Hovercraft I assume would be the Griffon produced at GRSE?

(Dumb DDM headline. Cheen's handful of ships in the IOR steer a wide berth from our territorial waters. They mount no challenge where these proposed vessels can operate.)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 07 Jul 2019 15:55

barges are used to take munitions from weapon storage sites to/from designated jetties or even moored ships in the water

here is how RN does it. https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/arming ... oyal-navy/

Image

we continue to persist with storing and servicing weapons in places like naval docks mumbai which are dangerously close to thickly populated areas.

these also look similar in karwar https://www.google.com/maps/@14.7712044 ... a=!3m1!1e3

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 07 Jul 2019 18:42

^^^ Thanks Singha ji. I guess I was hoping for a kind of arsenal ship when I saw "missile" as a prefix. You are right it is most likely just a transport barge for ammo including missile refills.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby sum » 08 Jul 2019 07:51

Anyone read this:
Operation X: The Untold Story of India's Covert Naval War in East Pakistan

Sheikh Mujibur Rehman in East Pakistan has just won an electoral mandate to become the prime minister of Pakistan. Accustomed to treating the eastern wing of the country as a colony, the ruling disposition in West Pakistan is not pleased, and launches a genocide against the residents of East Pakistan, flooding India with lakhs of refugees. With the violence in East Pakistan reaching a crescendo, the Indian government is faced with a difficult option: remain a mute spectator to the savagery on its eastern borders, or take action and go to war against its western neighbour. Thus was born Naval Commando Operation (X) - comprising Indian navy officers and divers, eight deserters from a Pakistani submarine and a ragtag bunch of Bengali youth fleeing the genocide - one of India's largest clandestine operations, meant to destabilize the West Pakistani efforts to bring East Pakistan to its knees. Revealed for the very first time, here is the explosive authentic account of the guerrilla operation that went for the maritime jugular of Pakistan, and facilitated the birth of Bangladesh.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 08 Jul 2019 12:04

A close relative of mine was DNO in '71 who got an AVSM both in '65 and '71 for his exploits.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby wig » 09 Jul 2019 09:59

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 99002.html

Indigenously made aircraft carrier progressing well; delivery by 2021
Vice Admiral AK Saxena, Controller, warship production and acquisition of the Navy, listed the timeline of the upcoming sea-borne carrier.
Vice Admiral Saxena, while addressing a press conference here on Monday, said, “The construction is moving at a brisk pace. The gas turbines could be fired in the third quarter of this year. Basin trials will follow and the testing of the aviation complex.”

The carrier is being made by Cochin Shipyard Limited.

regarding the 75I submarines
He said the navy could see more than 50 per cent indigenous content in case of next-generation submarines. The Ministry of Defence had floated an expression of interest to several Indian companies on June 20 to make six submarines under the programme called project 75-I.

Vice Admiral Saxena said once the 75-I is done India would have the capability to make her own submarines.


on the second indigenus aircraft carrier
On being asked about the second indigenous aircraft carrier called IAC-2, he said it had been decided that we need to have the next carrier to project sea power. The issue of having more air power based on land vis-a-vis having fighter jets on the deck of a carrier floating out at sea had been decided.

India operates INS Vikramaditya; the upcoming INS Vikrant will be the second carrier while the IAC-2 will be the third.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Jul 2019 11:20

Multibillion dollar question is when will work start on IAC-2, ideally should have started 6-7 years back with delivery around 2025.


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Jul 2019 01:27

Aditya_V wrote:Multibillion dollar question is when will work start on IAC-2, ideally should have started 6-7 years back with delivery around 2025.

I have a feeling that this will be contingent or related to relations with the US. Possibly tied to the Navys tender for 57 advanced fighters, which could be the shornet considering the commonality of engines with the nlca. There were some noises about getting NATO Ally type status with all blocks to advanced weapons sales being removed etc...

If Boeing can demo stobar and possibility of utilizing narrow lifts of the Indian carriers, this would be added impetus....

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Shekhar Singh » 12 Jul 2019 21:04

DRDO's New Tech For Diesel Submarines, can stay 35 days undetected


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 14 Jul 2019 20:54

Like BMos sublaunched, we must have these systems tested aboard a sub, dedicated spl. subs as exist in Russia and the US. The accident aboard an Ru spy sub which can dive to 20K ft. and is part of a secret fleet of specialised subs, indicates how far we must go in UW scientific research .The defence budget must be enhanced so that we can build our own research vessels where we can test out various weapon systems and sensors.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby jaysimha » 15 Jul 2019 12:56

FICCI-Indian Navy International Seminar on 'Nation Building through Shipbuilding
Jul 25 - 26, 2019,FICCI, New Delhi
http://ficci.in/events-page.asp?evid=24269

Honorable Raksha Mantri – Shri Rajnath Singh Ji is being invited to deliver the Inaugural Address. Admiral Karambir Singh, PVSM, AVSM, ADC, Chief of the Naval Staff, Indian Navy is being invited as Guest of Honour and Dr. Ajay Kumar, Secretary Defence Production is being invited to deliver special address at the Inaugural Session.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 17 Jul 2019 01:06

RN has integrated these small martlet missiles for anti FAC role. helina sized and originally meant for helis

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 17 Jul 2019 07:45

Singha wrote:RN has integrated these small martlet missiles for anti FAC role. helina sized and originally meant for helis


I guess something is better than nothing but replenishing these rounds (given their # and location) is going to be difficult in the event of a swarming FAC attack..I think when you have medium-long range guided projectiles available (the Excalibur-N is like 80% there already) then this will become less of a mission for missiles. Till then Hellfire, Spike etc will be the primary systems, if available, for cost-effective targeting of these vessels, particularly in swarms. You really need 24x36 ready to go weapons for the sort of swarms (at least in the littorals or closer to shore) that could be possible in the near term.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 17 Jul 2019 18:21

Perhaps the gun/ missile systems like Kashtan/ Kortik and whose SAMs have a 15 to 20 km range with multiple rounds and sufficient reloads- they do have a secondary capability against small craft, could suffice.However, surely main guns with rapid fire modes should be able to deal with such threats. Most IN warships also have their 30mm gatlings and US warships have Phalanx. The problem lies with Iranian 70 kt. speedboats armed with anti-ship missiles.How many they possess and could field in the constricted waters of the Gulf.Some would be armed with torpedoes too.In fact they don't have to venture out far from port to launch an attack.
A modern day version of fireships.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 17 Jul 2019 19:34

Anti Ship Missiles need targeting and Fire Control so there are multiple paths to deny that (given how small these FAC's are) without even firing a single missile or gun round. Gun solutions obviously exist but you probably don't want to be leaving it all to a 30 mm gun / phalanx when there is a swarm of multiple suicidal armed unmanned (or even manned) vessels approaching from multiple vectors (especially one that is launched by a state instead of a rag tag outfit) as could happen in a littoral situation. Larger blue water ships will naturally face this less given the distance from shore. The Excalibur-N once upgraded with its MMW seeker can probably provide ships with the 5 inch gun a fairly cost-effective solution (especially when one considers what one can do away with in terms of dedicated launch cells/modules and stores) to go after this target type with one-shot-one-kill possibilities at distances much greater than a hellfire, Brimstone etc.

Additionally, I'm sure that as this threat rises (it is already quite severe in some parts of the world) the CONOPS and best practice for these vessels would be to have helicopter coverage when transitioning these waters. You can arm these aircraft with Hellfire missiles or even PG rockets and can therefore extend the range out to past 8-10 km that the smaller missiles provide. Ultimately, what you need is an armed unmanned aircraft that is hovering above the vessel for a long period of time during these transitions and has both a capable data link and an organic sensor to allow to target these vessels in short order. I see the MQ-8C Fire Scout, with its 12-hour endurance, being a popular choice here if it is opened up for export, as an armed variant shouldn't be that far into the future given that the basic ISR version recently declared IOC.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 17 Jul 2019 23:41

Rbu-6000 can be used against surface vessels the Rgb-60 rounds can be programmed with a timer for that purpose and I believe we are developing some indigenous rounds to replace rgb-60. Currently an enhanced longer range version has been developed, perhaps we should add other types of rounds more specialized for land bombardment and engagement of vessels.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kartik » 18 Jul 2019 09:27

Was this posted earlier?

India floats tender for underwater weapons for Scorpene subs

NEW DELHI --- Months after India's French-origin Scorpene-class submarine started operating without primary underwater weapons systems, the Indian Navy has finally launched a tender worth over $300 million to arm its diesel-electric submarines.

One in six Scorpene-class submarines has been operating for the last two years without heavyweight torpedoes - the primary underwater weapons systems - for attacking and defending against enemy attacks by submarines and surface warships.

"The tender for acquiring around 100 heavyweight torpedoes for Indian Navy submarines was issued 10 days ago by the Defence Ministry," Indian news agency ANI quoted Defence Ministry sources as saying.
..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 18 Jul 2019 14:52

The diplomat is reporting that India is to export TAL Shyena torpedoes to Myanmar. Not sure which and how many platforms in IN currently use the Shyena torpedoes? Have we developed an air launched version of the same, for use by Helicopters?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2019 22:38

Yes there were news reports from some time about exporting the light weight torpedoes to Myanmar.

Made by BDL.

viewtopic.php?p=2365434#p2365434

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2019 22:41

John wrote:Rbu-6000 can be used against surface vessels the Rgb-60 rounds can be programmed with a timer for that purpose and I believe we are developing some indigenous rounds to replace rgb-60. Currently an enhanced longer range version has been developed, perhaps we should add other types of rounds more specialized for land bombardment and engagement of vessels.


Yes OFB developed RBU-6000 upgrade and gives more range and safer propellant

Jaysimha had posted a pdf on that.

The fuze is a contact fuze if I recall. Don't know if it has a time/air burst option.

Let me look for it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 19 Jul 2019 06:49

Navy to buy Rs 1,589 crore satellite from ISRO.

The Indian Navy has placed an order with the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) for a new dedicated military satellite for communications between its warships, aircraft and shore-based units, with a launch expected within a year.

The Rs 1,589 crore order for a new military satellite—named GSAT 7R—will include launch cost and procurement of necessary infrastructure on ground. The satellite is expected to eventually replace the first dedicated Indian military satellite, the GSAT 7, which was launched in 2013.

The order for the satellite was placed on June 11, with officials saying the newlysanctioned triservices Defence Space Agency is likely to get several new assets in the coming months for communication as well as surveillance.

The GSAT 7R, which will be designed to be compatible with a variety of platforms including future submarines of the Indian Navy, has an expected launch date in 2020. In December last year, a dedicated military communications satellite for the Indian Air Force, dubbed the Indian Angry Bird, was also launched by ISRO.

The GSAT 7A satellite, which went into orbit onboard the indigenous GSLV Mk II rocket, is being used for communication between all strategic platforms of the air force, including fighter jets, drones and early warning aircraft. The GSAT 6, launched in 2015, is being used for communication by ground forces.

India has been steadily increasing its presence in space that started with the series of dual use satellite from the CARTOSAT and RISAT family that are used for surveillance. In April this year, ISRO launched the strategic EMISAT that has been designed to pick up electromagnetic signals and is likely to be used for communication interception and detection of enemy assets.

The biggest surprise that India pulled off however was Anti-Satellite Test carried out on March 27, in which a ground-based interceptor successfully destroyed a low earth orbit satellite. The test placed India in a select grouping of the US, Russia and China with demonstrated antisatellite capability.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 19 Jul 2019 19:37

In the future almost all surface combatants with a heli-deck will have to operate UAVs in addition to ASW/ multi-role helos.An Ru design had an innovative below ddck hangar accessed by a deck lift. This could give extra space for such UAVs and UUVs which can be launched and recoveted from either beam using sliding hull panels and telescopic booms.This will assist in providing the desired EW coverage in detecting air/ missile threats. I don't know if any experimentation with aerostats has been also done, cable fouling can be redressed by launching the aerostat astern from a towed platform.

Ru have developed an anti- mine UUV which can operate at depths around 300m and destroy various types of mines, operable remotely upto 500 m

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 20 Jul 2019 23:13

Indian Navy set to commission 5th Dornier aircraft squadron,

Indian Navy is all set to commission the fifth Dornier aircraft squadron, Indian Naval Air Squadron (INAS) in Chennai, Tamil Nadu, on 22 July 19.

The new air squadron is scheduled to be commissioned by Admiral Karambir Singh Chief of the naval staff at Naval Air Enclave, Meenambakkam.

The squadron will operate the indigenous Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)-built maritime surveillance version multi-role Dornier 228 Short Range Maritime reconnaissance aircraft from Chennai Airport.

The Dornier aircraft is fitted with state-of-the-art’ sensors and equipment, which include advanced surveillance radar, electronic sensors and networking features that would enhance maritime domain awareness of the Indian Navy and be a force multiplier during the search and rescue operations.

Commissioning of the air squadron under the eastern naval command would further strengthen Indian Navy’s efforts in order to maintain constant surveillance and safeguard the maritime interests in the eastern seaboard of India.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby wig » 24 Jul 2019 09:29

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 06713.html

Commandos escort Indian-flagged vessels - Operation Sankalp
extracts
Navy now has 31 teams of armed commandos to escort Indian flagged merchant vessels through the Straits of Hormuz into the Persian Gulf and back. This is to avoid any Indian merchant vessel getting hijacked or affected in the ongoing tensions between the US and Iran.

and
Each of the armed teams has three members, These teams are stationed on two warships INS Sunayna and INS Trikand. The two warships are stationed some 200-250 nautical miles apart — one of the Gulf of Oman and other in Persian Gulf. The armed commandos on the warship in Gulf of Oman board the incoming merchant vessel mid-sea and escort it safely northwards through the straits of Hormuz. On the return journey, the same procedure is followed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 24 Jul 2019 16:22

Posting here because the Vikrant thread had been idle so long that I couldn't even find it any more.

It looks like we won't see the Vikrant in sea trials before 2021.

https://www.themachinemaker.com/news/indian-navy-made-in-india-aircraft-carrier-vikrant

Indian Navy expected to commission Made in India Aircraft Carrier Vikrant by 2023

09-Jul-2019

Designed by Directorate of Naval Design and getting build at Cochin Shipyard, the first indigenous Aircraft Carrier Vikrant is in its advanced stage of production and is expected to be delivered to Indian Navy by 2021, informed Vice Admiral A K Saxena, Controller of Warship Production and Acquisition, Indian Navy.

FICCI and Indian Navy are jointly organizing a two-day seminar on “Nation Building through Ship Building” from 25th July 2019, and Mr. Saxena was talking during a curtain raiser program in connection with the seminar.

Once with Navy, aviation trails are expected to start in 2021, and within next two years the carrier can be commissioned. Similar to the present aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, Vikrant is being built on Shot Take-off but Arrested Recovery mechanism with an angular ski-jump, and will weigh around 40,000 tons. The production of Vikrant witnessed participation of several private and public companies, and will be a big boost to Make in India initiatives.

India possess great potentiality to develop capability to build world class warships and merchant vessels, which will further strengthen its position in the global manufacturing maps for very advanced technologies. The expansion in this sector can generate huge employment opportunities. Ship building is identified as a key strategic sector under Government’s Make in India. The keel for Vikrant was laid by then Defence Minister A K Antony at the Cochin Shipyard on 28th of February 2009.


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 24 Jul 2019 16:44

Let us reflect on this:

When the Vikrant's keel was laid down in 2009, Cheen had no operation carrier.

By the time we commission the Vikrant in 2023 (provided we don't miss the date -- no guarantee) Cheen will have at least three carriers in the water without no doubt a fourth being constructed.

We will have gone from being the pre-eminent and dominant power of naval aviation in Asia to second fiddle while CSL was in labor with Vikrant. A lifetime in the birthing process.

And it will get even worse as we have no approval for the next carrier after Vikrant.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 26 Jul 2019 04:18

Navy chief Admiral Karambir Singh argues for more funds to build warships.

A day after Beijing released a defence White Paper emphasising the role and profile of the Chinese Navy, India’s navy chief, Admiral Karambir Singh, argued on Thursday for more funds for building naval warships.

With the navy’s budget declining in real terms and the service facing internal defence ministry opposition to its proposal for building a second indigenous aircraft carrier, the navy chief rejected “a narrative, where budgetary allocation for naval shipbuilding is considered by some to be a drain on the economy.” Addressing a Ficci seminar in New Delhi, Singh rode on the navy’s successful indigenisation programme to make a three-point argument that “Naval shipbuilding actually contributes handsomely to economic growth and nation building.”

Singh first cited a “plough-back effect [in which] a very large proportion of every rupee spent on the Navy is ploughed back into the Indian economy.” Illustrating that, Singh pointed out that, with “more than 60 per cent of the naval budget dedicated to capital expenditure, nearly 70 per cent of this has been spent on indigenous sourcing, amounting to nearly Rs 66,000 crores in the last five years.”

Singh said that, since 2014, 80 per cent of warship building approvals (on cost basis) have been reserved for Indian vendors. “Of the total 51 ships and submarines on order at various shipyards as on date, 49 are being constructed indigenously”, he stated. The only Indian warships being built abroad are two Krivak III frigates in Yantar Shipyard in Russia.

Besides the capital budget, large parts of the revenue budget are also ploughed back into the national economy, said Singh, with Indian companies and workers providing logistics, spares and upgrades to indigenous warships over their three-decade service lives. “GRSE (Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata), for instance, has nearly 2,100 firms registered to support on-going naval shipbuilding projects,” he said.

“Nearly 90 per cent of ship repair by value is undertaken by Indian vendors, mostly micro, small and medium enterprises (MSMEs),” he said.

Singh’s second point was that warship building catalyses skills development.“Each shipbuilding project involves considerable investment of manpower, with commensurate employment and skilling of workforce. As [warship] platforms become more complex, skill levels are also proportionately upgraded.”

Building a commercial ship of 30,000 tonnes employs 4,000 workers for one-to-two years, with one white-collar worker for every six blue-collar worker. Building a warship of 7,000 tonnes employs 4,800 workers for six-to-eight years. Of these, there is one white-collar worker for every 1.6 blue-collar workers, explained the navy’s design chief, Rear Admiral GK Harish, illustrating the navy chief’s point.

Further, for each worker employed in a warship yard, another 6.4 workers find jobs in ancillary industries that feed into the warship. “Project 17A [to build seven] frigates, for instance, is expected to employ a workforce of about 4,500 workers annually within the yard, but nearly 28,000 personnel per year as outsourced manpower from ancillary industries,” stated Singh.

Besides individual skilling, warship building spins off new shipyard capabilities, said the chief. For example, India’s largest dry-dock that Cochin Shipyard Ltd is building, primarily for aircraft carriers, would also let CSL service large commercial ships.

Similarly, indigenous shipbuilding steel that the Defence R&D Organisation developed for INS Vikrant is now going into other vessels too. “Steel Authority of India has supplied nearly 50,000 tonnes of indigenous [warship] steel, which was hitherto being imported,” said the navy chief.

Thirdly, said Singh, “Naval shipbuilding projects contribute to strategic outcomes.” He cited warships built in India for Seychelles, Maldives and Sri Lanka. “There is immense potential to forge strategic partnerships and convert India into a strategic hub for defence shipbuilding exports and repairs to friendly foreign countries.

However, cost-effective shipbuilding depends on achieving “a certain critical mass”, by galvanizing commercial shipbuilding for the mercantile marine and coastal shipping, he said.

Harish, however painted a gloomy picture of commercial shipbuilding. Between 2002-2007, India’s share of global shipbuilding orders rose six-fold from 0.2 to 1.2 per cent. That year an optimistic government set a target of garnering 7.5 per cent of global orders by 2017. However, after global recession of 2008, India’s share has fallen to 0.01 per cent of the global order book.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby sum » 26 Jul 2019 06:12

chola wrote:Let us reflect on this:

When the Vikrant's keel was laid down in 2009, Cheen had no operation carrier.

By the time we commission the Vikrant in 2023 (provided we don't miss the date -- no guarantee) Cheen will have at least three carriers in the water without no doubt a fourth being constructed.

We will have gone from being the pre-eminent and dominant power of naval aviation in Asia to second fiddle while CSL was in labor with Vikrant. A lifetime in the birthing process.

And it will get even worse as we have no approval for the next carrier after Vikrant.

Sobering read!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2019 07:26

chola wrote:Let us reflect on this:

When the Vikrant's keel was laid down in 2009, Cheen had no operation carrier.

By the time we commission the Vikrant in 2023 (provided we don't miss the date -- no guarantee) Cheen will have at least three carriers in the water without no doubt a fourth being constructed.

We will have gone from being the pre-eminent and dominant power of naval aviation in Asia to second fiddle while CSL was in labor with Vikrant. A lifetime in the birthing process.

And it will get even worse as we have no approval for the next carrier after Vikrant.

Good Points Chola.

Now reflect on this map and see where & how exactly is the PLAN expecting to send a carrier strike group into the Indian waters without it being detected? There are choke points everywhere.

Build capacity is one thing. Sustained carrier operations - out on the open seas, far away from home - are a whole other ball game. And the PLAN has zero experience in carrier operations. The United States Navy is the undisputed king (and will be for the foreseeable future) in this arena, followed by other navies i.e. Indian Navy, Royal Navy, the Marine Nationale, etc.

Build capacity is good to show off in an annual PLAN Anniversary Day celebration and to cause dhoti shivering on BRF. But otherwise, it has little significance. PLAN carrier groups will be stationed in the South China Sea. What the real worry is PLAN naval bases on the East African Coast i.e. Djibouti or from Gwadar port in Pakistan. Dhoti Shiver about that. See the map below the first one. A PLAN carrier strike group out in the open in the Arabian Sea. Good lucking finding that! We need those nuclear powered subs like yesterday!

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Jul 2019 12:23

Rakesh wrote: We need those nuclear powered subs like yesterday!

Not to mention some serious patrolling capability along with satellite coverage. It would be good to have those choke points under constant surveillance. 24 P8i is a step in the right direction, wish they carried the Bmos. The Sea Guardian purchase will also help.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 26 Jul 2019 13:56

Rakesh wrote:We need those nuclear powered subs like yesterday!

Actually in the constricted waters of Sunda, Lombok & other straits, long range DE submarines like Shortfin Barracuda from A&N would work like efficient snipers. Much better than aircraft carriers. With surveillance from Oceansats/Risats/Cartosats and designation from hordes of Tapas/Sea Guardiums

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby pankajs » 26 Jul 2019 15:27

In addition:

1. US navy at Diego Garcia and the Persian gulf.
2. India's own maritime patrol & Sat based surveillance. A carrier and its wake is big enough to be detected by current generation Cartosats.
3. COMCASA enabled access to US IOR real-time American intelligence.
4. Su-MKI with Brahmos

Chinese carriers are not going to have any space to hide or any shield to protect them in the IOR in the event of a conflict.
Last edited by pankajs on 26 Jul 2019 15:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 26 Jul 2019 15:54

Admiral, Pankajs ji, I know better than most of our dominant position in the IOR vis a vis the chinis. And top of that, the US Fifth Fleet in the region (provided the PLAN could even get past the 7th.)

If we are talking war, the Chinis have no chance with or without carriers.

But Cheen hadn't fought a war in decades and its power had grown many fold. So what happens if there is no war and Cheen has their CBGs tooling around the IOR and we don't? They automatically become the second power in the IOR after Unkil with all that entails for our strategic space.

We need that 65K ton carrier in the works!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby pankajs » 26 Jul 2019 15:59

If they can fight and win with their carriers in IOR why do I care! Let them parade them as much as they want.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby manjgu » 26 Jul 2019 16:03

i dont think india can match the chinis ship for ship ..sub for sub... we have to maintain a decent ( which the govt/navy can decide depending on threat assesment and economic conditions and budgetary allocations) level of naval preparedness. our geography provides us with a definite advantage... and i dont think chinese will enter into a shooting match where they may be at a disadvantage?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 26 Jul 2019 16:05

pankajs wrote:If they can fight and win with their carriers in IOR why do I care! Let them parade them as much as they want.


Fair point. But why do we care about OBOR and CPEC then? It is about influence in the region.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2019 18:42

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote: We need those nuclear powered subs like yesterday!

Not to mention some serious patrolling capability along with satellite coverage. It would be good to have those choke points under constant surveillance. 24 P8i is a step in the right direction, wish they carried the Bmos. The Sea Guardian purchase will also help.

I am eagerly awaiting the second batch of Boeing P-8Is.

Better that the Sea Guardian UAV is this ---> Northrop Grumman MQ-4C Triton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_ ... -4C_Triton

Mother of Goodness! What an awesome machine. Trust the Khan to come up with this. A fleet of this would give the IN some serious capability.

The other thing we need from the US is the MH-60R multi-role naval helicopter from Sikorsky (owned by Lockheed Martin). She is a beast. I am hoping the 24 are approved by the end of the year. Hopefully we can get more than 24. And some more C-130s.

Rather than waste billions of FOREX on MMRCA, get the above please.

Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman - all the three big wigs win. And that should make DT very happy. Make America Great Again! :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2019 18:48

tsarkar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:We need those nuclear powered subs like yesterday!

Actually in the constricted waters of Sunda, Lombok & other straits, long range DE submarines like Shortfin Barracuda from A&N would work like efficient snipers. Much better than aircraft carriers. With surveillance from Oceansats/Risats/Cartosats and designation from hordes of Tapas/Sea Guardiums

Thank you for mentioning that. Good Point.

Subs like the Shortfin Barracuda will be very effective in the regions you mentioned.

The PLAN will have a challenging time sailing a carrier group into the Indian Ocean without being detected.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2019 18:53

chola wrote:
pankajs wrote:If they can fight and win with their carriers in IOR why do I care! Let them parade them as much as they want.


Fair point. But why do we care about OBOR and CPEC then? It is about influence in the region.

Chola, actually Pankaj has made an excellent point.

What use are PLAN carrier groups if they cannot fight to win? Think about that.

Influence goes hand in hand with your ability to FIGHT and WIN.

When a USN Carrier Group comes into a theater of operations, countries sit up and take notice. The firepower a USN Carrier Group is bigger than the firepower of many small nations. It is foolishness to go up against a USN Carrier Group and expect to come out on top. They are influential because the US is willing to go to war with it and they are 100% confident that they will win. American Presidents love the carrier groups!

That is like saying I own a stick-shift Ferrari, but I have no clue on how to drive one. Just sits in my driveway and folks walk by and are amazed. Ask me to drive it and that is when I am FUBAR.


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