Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

[Cain Marko]

Actually in the constricted waters of Sunda, Lombok & other straits, long range DE submarines like Shortfin Barracuda from A&N would work like efficient snipers. Much better than aircraft carriers. With surveillance from Oceansats/Risats/Cartosats and designation from hordes of Tapas/Sea Guardiums

Thank you for mentioning that. Good Point.

Subs like the Shortfin Barracuda will be very effective in the regions you mentioned.

The PLAN will have a challenging time sailing a carrier group into the Indian Ocean without being detected.

DEs are indeed good for such a purpose but one would need ssns to keep trailing the CBG, I'm not sure if DEs have the legs for it. This is especially important during non war, peace times.

[Cain Marko]

Not to mention some serious patrolling capability along with satellite coverage. It would be good to have those choke points under constant surveillance. 24 P8i is a step in the right direction, wish they carried the Bmos. The Sea Guardian purchase will also help.

I am eagerly awaiting the second batch of Boeing P-8Is.

Better that the Sea Guardian UAV is this ---> Northrop Grumman MQ-4C Triton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_ ... -4C_Triton

Mother of Goodness! What an awesome machine. Trust the Khan to come up with this. A fleet of this would give the IN some serious capability.

The other thing we need from the US is the MH-60R multi-role naval helicopter from Sikorsky (owned by Lockheed Martin). She is a beast. I am hoping the 24 are approved by the end of the year. Hopefully we can get more than 24. And some more C-130s.

Rather than waste billions of FOREX on MMRCA, get the above please.

Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman - all the three big wigs win. And that should make DT very happy. Make America Great Again!

Is the Triton ready for production yet? Also, what are it's advantages over the guardian?

[brar_w]

Triton’s first operational orbit is expected to be 2021 though I believe one or two have moved to Guam in a lead up to that. Its advantage is higher altitude allowing for much more effective SIGINT/ELINT while also having the capability to carry larger more power hungry sensor systems ( like X band and in the future dual band GMT sensors like THIS) and being designed around significantly greater jam resistance and data bandwidth needs. It is also going to be significantly more expensive than the Sea Gurdian (3-4x maybe) so is in a different class of Maritime ISR .. It is more of a peacetime strategic ISR asset given its capability as a multi-mission platform..

It is unfair to compare the Sea Guardian to the Triton (GA tried to do that with the "Mariner" (even that was a more beefed up version) on the US Navy BAMS program and lost). A more apt comparison to it would be a BAMS Avenger variant which doesn't really exist.

[chola]

Fair point. But why do we care about OBOR and CPEC then? It is about influence in the region.

Chola, actually Pankaj has made an excellent point.

What use are PLAN carrier groups if they cannot fight to win? Think about that.

Influence goes hand in hand with your ability to FIGHT and WIN.

When a USN Carrier Group comes into a theater of operations, countries sit up and take notice. The firepower a USN Carrier Group is bigger than the firepower of many small nations. It is foolishness to go up against a USN Carrier Group and expect to come out on top. They are influential because the US is willing to go to war with it and they are 100% confident that they will win. American Presidents love the carrier groups!

That is like saying I own a stick-shift Ferrari, but I have no clue on how to drive one. Just sits in my driveway and folks walk by and are amazed. Ask me to drive it and that is when I am FUBAR.

Again, you are expecting that war/fight to actually happen. But if it never happens?

Think of it this way:

The Ferrari is driven around the IOR beachfront neighborhood slowly despite it being a fast car because the bad driver can't get the thing out of first gear. Won't matter because the girls in bikinis still oh and ah over his car. The alpha blond Amreeki beach boy with his Viper muscle car can embarrass the bad Ferrari driver if he could get that guy to race him. But the chini driver never accepts his challenge and blondie is already alpha anyways with his harem of beach girls so he doesn't try too hard to force a showdown.

So Amreeki beachboy stays at One. And chini at two because of his Ferrari. We are Sanjay who lives in the neighbor with a Tata Harrier whose dad won't buy him a Racemo to compete. His Harrier can kick the Ferrari (in first gear) in the arse any day but the chini driver would never race him and Sanjay himself would rather not risk it. What if the chini finally learns to shift? Now if he had the Racemo it would be a different story.

Still as he ponders, all the neighborhood's girls are flocking around the Ferrari at the beach ...

[Rakesh]

Better that the Sea Guardian UAV is this ---> Northrop Grumman MQ-4C Triton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_ ... -4C_Triton

Mother of Goodness! What an awesome machine. Trust the Khan to come up with this. A fleet of this would give the IN some serious capability.

Is the Triton ready for production yet? Also, what are it's advantages over the guardian?

Thanks to brar who provided a better explanation, than I could. But nevertheless, there goes that dream!

India rethinks buying US armed drones
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 9bsqJ.html

The Indian Air Force has raised concerns about an armed drone surviving in a contested air space like PoK or along the LAC.

Last month’s downing of the US Global Hawk drone by Iran in the Persian Gulf has prompted a rethink within the Indian military establishment, led by the air force, over the acquisition of American-made armed drones on account of their cost and questions over their survivability.

The rethink on US drones has nothing to do with US President Donald Trump’s Kashmir recent mediation faux pas; the Narendra Modi government has decided to cut out the Trump noise over Kashmir and concentrate on building India-US ties for times to come.

The other significant reason behind the Indian rethink is the prohibitive price of armed drones like the Predator-B. According to the military establishment, the cost of a bare drone platform will be to the tune of $100 million and a full complement of weapons like laser-guided bombs or hell-fire missiles will cost another $100 million.

“This means that an armed drone with full complement of weapons will be more expensive than Rafael multi-role fighter with all weapons and missiles on board. Under the circumstances, the IAF will give preference to acquiring more multi-role fighters with long-range air-to-air missiles.

Meteor perhaps?

[brar_w]

I think this may be in reference to the IAF's often spoken about interest in an Avenger based system. Yes, given its bespoke nature and low volume production (US is buying only a few for very selective usage as opposed to buying in quantity) it is not going to be cheap, especially if one customizes it with sensors and other internal weapons. The other interest attributed to the IN is for the Sea-Guardian which is going to be much much cheaper and is going to have a fraction of the P-8 (or alternatives) operating cost considering that 2-3 are going to be good for setting up constant 24 hour orbits over a fairly substantial area of the ocean.

On the Predator-B, the Average Per Unit Cost for the aircraft is < $40 Million for the MQ-9 BLOCK 5 (APUC. Fly-Away is <$20 Million) and it is within a 10-20% range if you chose some other configuration on the family (like Certifiable Predator B for UK for example). There is an upfront cost component that pushes acquisition cost when quantities are low as you still need to build redundancies into your Ground Control Stations (even with low numbers), buy the adequate comms gear and have other support and logistics deals. So if one was buying 4-8 then yeah expect to pay close to $100+ million average across the entire purchase (the equivalent number for the Rafale is probably 2x of that though) but a double digit purchase should push that number to more reasonable levels. I believe the UK FMS notifications had an APUC of around $40 Million for a deal for around 25 aircraft, ISR equipment and SAR radars etc. Add perhaps a $100-200 MM package for weapons so that is still < $50 MM APUC based on a 20+ aircraft order.

[Prithwiraj]

Taking it to next level, India readies submarine for Myanmar
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 442448.cms

India is set to hand over Myanmar its first ever submarine, with a Kilo class boat likely to be sent across this year after being refitted indigenously. The INS Sindhuvir will be used by the Myanmar Navy — which is looking at acquiring its own submarine fleet in the coming years — for training purposes.

[Cain Marko]

Is the Triton ready for production yet? Also, what are it's advantages over the guardian?

Thanks to brar who provided a better explanation, than I could. But nevertheless, there goes that dream!

It seems they have some newer versions of the guardian so well with more range, perhaps that will make you feel better Admiral.

Interesting that the IAF is not keen on armed drones, the reasoning seems sound. However, the Navy surely could use them for surveillance.

[Karthik S]

Livefist @livefist 58m
Big.
@IndianNavy
Kilo-class submarine INS Sindhuvir likely to be handed over to Myanmar after refit, reports
@ManuPubby
.

Why are we handing over sub? A vessel that we are desperately short of?

[Cybaru]

We are at 8+4+10 P8I at the moment. Pushing 12-20 MQ4C will allow us near control of all three sides of India in real time. No fleet can come sneaking in, plus it will allow those airframes to be used for a very long time.

Ideally we will launch 8 - 10 satellites for the combined military command and that gives us near time recon capabilities with extremely high resolution.

[Karthik S]

Thanks to brar who provided a better explanation, than I could. But nevertheless, there goes that dream!

It seems they have some newer versions of the guardian so well with more range, perhaps that will make you feel better Admiral.

Interesting that the IAF is not keen on armed drones, the reasoning seems sound. However, the Navy surely could use them for surveillance.

Missed that part, could you mention what was the reasoning given?

[chola]

Livefist @livefist 58m
Big.
@IndianNavy
Kilo-class submarine INS Sindhuvir likely to be handed over to Myanmar after refit, reports
@ManuPubby
.

Why are we handing over sub? A vessel that we are desperately short of?

Strategic move. It would prevent the Burmese from inducting chini subs (like Thailand.)

[Aditya_V]

This would not have happened if IN was not happy with Kalvari class, now we will 3 +4 U209+8 Subs and 3 joining shortly plus Chakra and SSBN's. and Hopefully 1 more Akula joining shortly.

[Karthik S]

We will operate only one akula even if second one is leased, as the first one has to be resent for refit.

[Singha]

u209 looks very durable worldwide. the most successful post war SSK design i think...even the israeli dolphin class is a u209 variant.
and the only current SSK with a escape sphere for the entire crew, than those scary individual escapes we see in films.

we shot our own foot as usual and did not license make more, followed by a P75 based off it.

[Vips]

Its not too late even now. Get the U209/212/214/216 based design and negotiate for an option to produce as many as required by the Indian Navy. Unless the french offer some crown jewels of the barracuda class (doubtful) or if the swedish/spanish competitors spring some surprise, U class is the way to go.

[Manish_Sharma]

^ French already boasted to offer fellow whites Australia the technology THAT THEY WILL NEVER GIVE TO A NON-WHITE NATION SUCH AS INDIA.

[Vips]

The offer can also be a quid pro quo of other critical technologies not related to subs.

[dinesh_kimar]

u209 looks very durable worldwide. the most successful post war SSK design i think...even the israeli dolphin class is a u209 variant.

To add to the above, both Kilo and Type 209 are equally successful, with abt 70 subs of both types produced (ballpark).

Neither is a lemon, both are good designs, good export success of each type.

IN wasn't at fault with either of the two.

(Scorpenes not sure)

Kilos are larger and cheaper, with longer endurance and last a decent 35-38 years. For eg. , INS Sindhuvir was commissioned in 1986.
The upgrade is done in our yards, which is rare, as Russia earns good money on upgrades. Not very upfront on ToT.

Type 209 last a whopping 44 + years, are smaller but reliable.
Scores of South American nations have done deep upgrades locally as the German partner has honoured stipulated contracts, by and large. There is a willingness to share deep technical know how by Germany, sometimes by freelance professionals working for a fee.

The point Singha Saar highlighted was not abt a diplomatic gift of a flogged submarine, but it seems strange that we give such gifts when we don't make any, and only few are available.

[Rakesh]

^ French already boasted to offer fellow whites Australia the technology THAT THEY WILL NEVER GIVE TO A NON-WHITE NATION SUCH AS INDIA.

The French said that to assuage the Aussies and so that they could win the contest.

Shortfin Barracuda is on offer to India as part of P-75I. And if the French win, it will be a customized SB variant suited to IN needs. The Aussies have no need to worry. My bet is that the Russians will win the P-75I contest.

[Rakesh]

Why are we handing over sub? A vessel that we are desperately short of?

The point Singha Saar highlighted was not abt a diplomatic gift of a flogged submarine, but it seems strange that we give such gifts when we don't make any, and only few are available.

The IN is not gifting this boat to Burma, despite the press reports that state so. This will be covertly operated by an Indian crew, with a token Burmese crew on board. Chess move to counter PLAN presence in the area. And a smart move.

Operate a boat from another country's waters, using "gift" as excuse

Look at the map below and see where Burma is and see how it is placed right above the Malacca Straits. And do not forget Port Blair, Andaman & Nicobar Islands (south-west of Rangoon) where the Indian Navy has a presence as well.

Why make the arduous journey from Vizag (where the Eastern Naval Command's Kilo boats are based), when you can hop, skip and jump into the mouth of the Malacca Straits from a naval base in Burma?

[dinesh_kimar]

The IN is not gifting this boat to Burma, despite the press reports that state so. This will be covertly operated by an Indian crew, with a token Burmese crew on board. Chess move to counter PLAN presence in the area. And a smart move.

The map makes things clear. The easiest way for a submarine patrol on the Straits of Malacca is to indeed operate out of Burma.

The Andaman islands are well placed, but to construct a submarine pen, hardened covered roof and a 50-70 m deep harbour is a pain in the neck.

(Seabird in nearby Karwar was 2-3 decades project, an Andaman base will have more challenges).

An alternate method is a 2-3 month operating patrol (60-90 days) using an Arihant submarine from the mainland/Vizag.

The new government is keen on having a long reach. Their tactical moves are much better than the shoddy crap of the UPA era, much akin to the Nanda dynasty before Chandragupta Maurya cleaned up.

[Singha]

Kilos are larger and cheaper

kilos are double hull. the internal useable living space of a kilo 2200t may be similar to a 1500t single hull like scorpene.

same for the akula. it has a serious double hull to cope with operation in icy conditions and reserve buoyancy. they have moved to single hulls on Borei and Yasen I believe (?)

[nachiket]

kilos are double hull. the internal useable living space of a kilo 2200t may be similar to a 1500t single hull like scorpene.

same for the akula. it has a serious double hull to cope with operation in icy conditions and reserve buoyancy. they have moved to single hulls on Borei and Yasen I believe (?)

The Yasen class is single hulled but the Borei is still double hulled I believe.

[Vips]

Russian offer of a rebadged Kilo is a non starter as the AIP system for it is still under development.Russians want us to advance them the money to develop it.

[kit]

Russian offer of a rebadged Kilo is a non starter as the AIP system for it is still under development.Russians want us to advance them the money to develop it.

India can sell them the DRDO developed AIP

[Cybaru]

Russian offer of a rebadged Kilo is a non starter as the AIP system for it is still under development.Russians want us to advance them the money to develop it.

As long as it designed and developed in India to meet our requirements and it allows us to share technology and use all the cool stuff out of Scorpene for commonality who cares?

[Rishi_Tri]

Livefist @livefist 58m
Big.
@IndianNavy
Kilo-class submarine INS Sindhuvir likely to be handed over to Myanmar after refit, reports
@ManuPubby
.

Why are we handing over sub? A vessel that we are desperately short of?

IMHO more a financial decision than anything. The sub is from 80s. In few years time frame it shall be 40 years old. Has undergone multiple refits. The cost of operation of this platform shall be very high. Sell / lease the sub to friendly country that shall be willing to put up with your personnel and thus get some dollars in the process. As other forum members have said, provides extended naval capability.

Choice of country little fuzzy as Myanmar is firmly in grip of China. Thailand may have been better bet if there were other strategic considerations. Or Vietnam with South China Sea then becoming your backyard.

Financial Package Cloaked in Military Uniform.

[SSridhar]

Choice of country little fuzzy as Myanmar is firmly in grip of China.

The India-Myanmar military cooperation has been steadily on the upswing for nearly a decade now. We have already supplied military hardware to Myanmar such as Islander maritime patrol aircraft (much against opposition from the UK), naval gun-boats, 105mm light artillery guns, mortars, grenade-launchers and rifles. But Myanmar has asked for much more, including radars, sensors and sonars for its naval frigates and corvettes. We are taking more of their military personnel for training.

Since c.2013, the maritime component has become significant. The Myanmarese Navy takes part in CORPAT (Coordinated Patrols) with the IN and also participates in Ex. Milan. There is an agreement (?) to sell four OPVs to Myanmar. Last year, the Indian and the Myanmarese navies initiated the India-Myanmar Naval Exercise (IMNX) in which INS Kamorta and a Kilo-class submarine of the Indian Navy participated. So, the thrust seems to be clear. Transfer of a Kilo is the next step.

The Thai Navy is a modern one and much bigger than the Myanmarese and wouldn't take our Kilo. Vietnam has the Project 636 versions of Kilo.

[Karthik S]

Kilos are larger and cheaper

kilos are double hull. the internal useable living space of a kilo 2200t may be similar to a 1500t single hull like scorpene.

same for the akula. it has a serious double hull to cope with operation in icy conditions and reserve buoyancy. they have moved to single hulls on Borei and Yasen I believe (?)

Singha ji, is there an added advantage of having a double hull, even american subs used to sail under arctic ice, but don't think they used double hull.

[chola]

kilos are double hull. the internal useable living space of a kilo 2200t may be similar to a 1500t single hull like scorpene.

same for the akula. it has a serious double hull to cope with operation in icy conditions and reserve buoyancy. they have moved to single hulls on Borei and Yasen I believe (?)

Singha ji, is there an added advantage of having a double hull, even american subs used to sail under arctic ice, but don't think they used double hull.

Soviets used the double hull method for both safety and noise reduction. But single hull will always be more efficient. Western subs are single hulled mainly because their industries are more technically advanced with the safety and acoustic concerns satisfied.

The Type 209 is great sub in IN service as well as in the service of many other navies. But in our fashion, we do one-time screwdriver giri and then go elsewhere for the followon in the Scorpene. No institutional knowledge retained. No industrial DNA is passed down. Every new project is clean slate again with a new phoren design.

Now take South Korea who also took the 209 U-Boat. BUT they developed variants of it through the Chang Bogo I/II/III classes. They also exported it to Indonesia. The current version, the Changho, is upscaled to 3400 tons with VLS. Korean institutional knowledge from the HDW ToT was preserved and its DNA passed down through subsequent projects. This is why you do TOT. Otherwise it is cheaper to just buy direct from phoren yards.

[Rakesh]

After Conventional & Nuclear, India Seeks Russian 20-Seater Submarines For Tourists
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/07 ... rists.html

[Manish_P]

Admiral Sir, the interesting part in that report is the mention of 'the 4 special forces mini-submarines/Swimmer Delivery Vehicles (SDVs)'. 7 years and counting ?

[Rakesh]

Along with P-75 India, our offer for three additional Scorpene submarines is still on table: French Naval Group chairman
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 447835.cms

[Rakesh]

Admiral Sir, the interesting part in that report is the mention of 'the 4 special forces mini-submarines/Swimmer Delivery Vehicles (SDVs)'. 7 years and counting ?

I am fine with the "sarcastic" Admiral, but please no Sir. I do not need the respect

With regards to the 7 years and counting, welcome to Indian defence procurement. Seven is considered young for procurement. That is baby-like in the hallowed halls of the MoD. 30+ years is more like the norm. MMRCA is almost 20 years.

[Manish_P]

Rakesh ji, my knowledge (limited as it is) of Indian Mil Procurement has all been courtesy of BRF. So i am aware of the stretched time lines.

When you put that post in this particular thread, just for a moment i thought that you were hinting at (sarcastially of course) the frustrated Nau Sena using 'tourist submarine' as a chankian way of getting the SDVs quickly.

Imagine an Admiral (not you, of course) smoothly telling a MOD Babu "These small submarines are very cheap. Let's get them and use them for tourism. We can operate them at Kara..err Karwar"

[Rakesh]

Along with P-75 India, our offer for three additional Scorpene submarines is still on table: French Naval Group chairman
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 447835.cms

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1156815457678061568 ---> The French offer for three additional Scorpene submarines should only be considered if there is a willingness to increase the indigenous content of the boats by a very significant margin. The current P-75 Kalvari Class (Scorpene) has less than 40% indigenous content.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1156926317243166721 ---> Look, it is known that the hull fabrication unit at MDL is lying all 'oiled-up' waiting to work on yet more Kalvari class (Scorpenes). But, like I said, it is not a simple matter of keeping a line running. There have be to be greater associated benefits.

[Vivek K]

Make your own submarines with the expertise generated!

[Vips]

Along with P-75 India, our offer for three additional Scorpene submarines is still on table: French Naval Group chairman
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 447835.cms

What is the value proposition that DCNS is making when they say 3 additional submarines offer is on the table? Is he offering it free or on concessional terms if 75I order is given to them? If not and they are going to charge full rate for the same then it makes more sense for India to give the 75I order to a company which offers at least 9 or gives the open ended option to India. At least that way India gets a more modern submarine.

[John]

Make your own submarines with the expertise generated!

Unlike U-209 where HDW handed over most tech to build the sub locally, DCN has been careful on the tech transfer to make sure MDL will be reliant and cannot simply reverse engineer critical components.