Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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V_Raman
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby V_Raman » 10 Aug 2019 15:39

I agree with chola. Talk about cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Sigh...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rishi_Tri » 10 Aug 2019 16:09

chola wrote:
Philip wrote:The alleged HDW scandal torpedoed the further building of U- boats.Decades later the courts found no wrong-doing.A great shame.Veteran submariners reminiscing, bemoan how valuable machinery was sold for scrap in Bombay. Nothing prevents us from doing the same today.


HDW scandal or not, it should not have derailed our ownership of that technology. We already paid for it.

The Scorpene should have been an Indian sub based on Type 209 technology. But instead we went clean slate and paid again for another gora sub in the Scorpene.

Again, the Koreans paid once to the Germans for the Type 209 and with that technology went to develop the Chang Bogo I/II/III classes. They exported their version of the Type 209 too because they paid for and own that ip.

Now they have yet another export contract with Indonesia for their latest sub the Chang Ho which was developed from the Chang Bogo but upscaled and fully indigenized.

Pay once for TOT and then use that to develop your own. That is the only way to do this logically.

With us, we paid one set of goras for Type 209, then another set of goras for Scorpene and now will pay more goras for P75I. How in hell does this make sense? Why not just buy from phoren yards directly and save some rupees if we never learn enough from these things to build our own?


Does the HDW - Scorpene - 'Next Submarine' say that so much was compromised in Scorpene during the leaks that it is being considered as not worth pursuing Scorpene? If you can build n-submarines, have built conventional submarines for two decades or more, extension of Scorpene design should have been logical and reasonable line of action to pursue.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 11 Aug 2019 03:58

Indian Navy commissions sixth Mark-IV class landing craft utility ship.

The Indian Navy has commissioned the sixth ship of the Mark-IV class landing craft utility (LCU) vessels, IN LCU L-56, during a ceremony at Eastern Naval Command in Visakhapatnam.

The commissioning ceremony was attended by officials from the Indian Navy and the shipbuilder Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Limited (GRSE).IN LCU L-56 was launched in March 2016 and is the 100th warship of GRSE.

Designed to carry 216 personnel, the Mark-IV class LCU vessels can be used to transport and deploy main battle tanks, armoured vehicles, troops, and equipment from ship to shore.

The vessels in this class are based at the Andaman and Nicobar Command. India will induct a total of eight GRSE-designed and built Mk IV LCU amphibious vessels.

The navy will deploy the ships in support of multirole activities, such as beaching operations, search and rescue, disaster relief operations, supply, and replenishment and evacuation from distant islands.

IN LCU L-56 is armed with two indigenous CRN 91 guns for artillery fire support during landing operations.In addition, the vessel features integrated bridge system (IBS) and an integrated platform management system (IPMS). Around 90% of the systems used in LCU are developed locally. In a statement, the Indian Ministry of Defence said: “The Mark-IV LCU vessels are a further improved version of the Mk-III LCU vessels presently being used by the Indian Navy.”

About 22 vessels meant for the Indian Navy and the Indian Coast Guard are in various stages of construction at GRSE.

The company won the contract for the design and construction of eight LCU ships in September 2011.

chola
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 11 Aug 2019 14:02

Rishi_Tri wrote:
chola wrote:
HDW scandal or not, it should not have derailed our ownership of that technology. We already paid for it.

The Scorpene should have been an Indian sub based on Type 209 technology. But instead we went clean slate and paid again for another gora sub in the Scorpene.

Again, the Koreans paid once to the Germans for the Type 209 and with that technology went to develop the Chang Bogo I/II/III classes. They exported their version of the Type 209 too because they paid for and own that ip.

Now they have yet another export contract with Indonesia for their latest sub the Chang Ho which was developed from the Chang Bogo but upscaled and fully indigenized.

Pay once for TOT and then use that to develop your own. That is the only way to do this logically.

With us, we paid one set of goras for Type 209, then another set of goras for Scorpene and now will pay more goras for P75I. How in hell does this make sense? Why not just buy from phoren yards directly and save some rupees if we never learn enough from these things to build our own?


Does the HDW - Scorpene - 'Next Submarine' say that so much was compromised in Scorpene during the leaks that it is being considered as not worth pursuing Scorpene? If you can build n-submarines, have built conventional submarines for two decades or more, extension of Scorpene design should have been logical and reasonable line of action to pursue.


Whatever was compromised in the Scorpene design was for the Scorpene design. That's it. It should be meaningless in our new development, especially since the actual transfer of IP for Scorpene was negligible. Scorpene tech ends with the Vagsheer. DCNS gave us no rights to build anything after.

What we should have learned from the experience of these programs with HDW and DCNS is the fundamentals where we could design and build a conventional submarine of our own. If the Scorpene was compromised then we should be able to design and build something that isn't compromised.

But here we are again looking to pay goras for P75I. To me, why bother paying phoreners for SSKs when we can build nuke subs on our own? Just go with an all nuke but indigenous sub fleet. At this point, it makes no sense to spend treasure for outside help on an inferior class of ships when we can build SSNs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 11 Aug 2019 14:14

+ chola saar. I too mentioned no need for SSK, have a good number of SSNs, especially when phoren SSKs are almost same price as an indigenous SSN. After 6th scorpene, whatever SSKs we have is good for PN, if at all you need one, considering we also have P-8Is and other anti-sub surface vessels. Just increase the SSN order to 12 from present planned 6 and build in pairs, and start construction of next pair as soon as the first pair is launched. This way, we can have 2 SSNs every 3 years after first pair is launched. But alas, not sure if our defense budget will allows us.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 11 Aug 2019 14:48

^^^ Yes Karthik ji. A SSK doesn't really makes sense for us. An SSK operates best near the littoral. It is slow and has little persistence so it is best suited for ambush of surface ships.

I do not see any foreign navy operating in our green waters in the face of the IAF and IN (unless we end up fighting the USN!) So what use is a SSK to us? I hear people saying we need them to counter Pakistan's SSKs but that's stupid. You don't hunt other subs with a slow DE boat, you use surface ships and aircraft.

Our real need is for SSNs to operate in blue water to keeps any potential enemy navy from even reaching our littorals.

Pakistan's navy to be honest will be annihilated from the air since everything above or below the surface is within range of Carrier India. A SSK is good to have if we can build them on our own but paying others through the nose for it? Not worth it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Aug 2019 21:07

The Arabian Sea shelf is pretty shallow and you need SSK in such an environment, for us this is a requirement or our North west coast and to approach the Pakistani coast.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 11 Aug 2019 21:49

Kartik's idea of 2 SSNs in the given timeframe would be great but the budget sadly won't be there for it.If we could have 2 to 3 AIP subs and one SSN every 3 years, it would be great. SSBNs separate, one every 2 to 3 years too.

A recent analysis of Ru N-sub building came out with this v.interesting observation, That Borei class SSBNs, being built steadily, are much cheaper than the Yasen class since they have a single operational task.The Rus themselves admitted some design flaws in the latest Yasen-M improved boats and a delay in their induction.It's because of the multi- role nature of attack boats which are really SSGNs with the extra land attack missiles carried like Kalibir.and special forces support plus UUVs.In the case of US attack boats, even UCAVs are carried. The Kalibir missile is now being improved with a 4, 500km range from 2, 500km adding to the role.

The mistake we should avoid is tarting up out conv. AIP boats to make them mini- N boats in capability, adding substantially to costs and resulting in lesser numbers built. Our delayed Scorpenes are in the range of $600+M, almost double that of the latest Kilo 636.3s. A German U- boat may be 10% cheaper than a Scorpene built in India.An Amur even less.Almost all Pak land targets are well within Indian land-based tactical missile range and with soon to be inducted 40+ B' Mos equipped MKIs, also within stand-off range of the IAF.

Unless we plan to also equip our conv. subs with land attack missiles with N-warheads in a crisis, we should leave such eventualities to our fleet of much faster SSBNs which have unlimited range , and a 90+ day endurance unlike the 45 day .std. endurance of conv. boats. We need SSKs fundamentally for sanitising the chokepoints and hunting down the PN and PLAN subs operating in the IOR and sinking their surfacd combatants and merchantmen. Anti-sub and anti-ship missiles taking priority over land attack ones. Our surface warships could carry such ordnance like Ru's small corvettes.The 4 extra Talwars to be acquired are supposed to have a possible Kalibir capability. Our SSN/ SSGNs could be tasked instead for the complete multi-role , multi- ocean operations.

In the littoral waters of the IOR, Tracking small AIP subs is quite a task even with the latest P-8Is. Tackling the ASW conundrum iz best when one prosecutes it 3- dimensionally. We had the recent report that during the Balakot crisis, it took us 29 days (?) to locate a PN Agosta-90B AIP boat , which scuttled off to waters off Gwadar/ Straits of Hormuz to avoid being detected by the IN.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby wig » 13 Aug 2019 09:22

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 17208.html

To match China’s pace, Navy adopts new ship-making tech
from the above
The ongoing project, 17-A, which is using modular construction, is what the Navy thinks will be its future and set the pace for making new warships.
The Navy is hopeful that the building time will be brought down from the present seven-eight years to three-four years for each warship. The first one is expected to be inducted in three years. All the seven warships of this project are expected by 2026 or 2027. The construction on the first one started in February 2017 and it should be ready for trials in 2021. The cost of each warship is around Rs 6,300 crore.

and
Three of the warships are being made at the Garden Reach Ship Builders (GRSE) Kolkata and another four at Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), Mumbai. Both the ship builders have created modular construction facilities.

The warships will incorporate the latest stealth features and carry a compact weapon platform that will include Barak 8 and BrahMos missiles, which will be vertically launched.

The manpower usage will also come down. Existing such warships have a crew of 250 whereas advanced automation will bring it down to 160, which will reduce operational costs by around 20 per cent and result in higher operational availability of the warships.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 13 Aug 2019 10:45

V.good to read the Tribune report.Modernisation of the shipyards has been on the cards for ages.If the time has indeed being brought down to that mentioned, superb.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SNaik » 14 Aug 2019 16:10

I can see where MDL is going to build four P-17A once they are done with P-15B, but pardon me, GRSE looks so tiny and with no space to expand, they can probably build only single ship of that size at a time. How the hell one can expect seven ships ready by 2027???

Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 19 Aug 2019 06:03

Aren't the numbers being split up between the yards? At least 2 can be built at a time.The high cost per unit, nearing $1B , beggars the Q whether larger numbers of cheaper smaller corvettes could not do the job or complement it as well.A combination of DDGs, FFGs and corvettes is required.A multi- purpose missile corvette ( not the P- 28 design) could be built within $300M .A fleet of 12 to 16 such corvettes also armed with Kalibir or equiv. SSMs, would give us the numbers required to attend to simultaneous crises anywhere in the IOR.
The need for such corvettes in no way is suggested as replacements for FFGs, but an innovative way in which we can increase numbers of capable platforms at affordable cost.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby wig » 21 Aug 2019 10:39

‘Make in India’ Software Defined Radio: ‘Mother’ of all solutions for tactical communications of armed forces

extracts
Indian Navy’s Tactical Data Link will be the immediate beneficiary of this indigenous SDR Technology which is very critical as it will help for achieving better transfer rates for a large volume of Real Time data, with a reduced Network latency

and

Indian Navy’s Tactical Data Link will be the immediate beneficiary of this indigenous SDR Technology which is very critical as it will help for achieving better transfer rates for a large volume of Real Time data, with a reduced Network latency.

This indigenous technology will be readily implementable for the Indian Army and Indian Air Force (IAF) for improved transfer rates for data, voice and video information. This will enable troops on the ground carrying Handheld Man-portable SDR versions to achieve integration with higher echelons to accomplish true C4I capability. Also, with SDR technology, the possibility of swarms of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) operating in the battlefield looks encouraging.

With each warship as a Node generating humongous Real-Time data related to navigation, combat information etc., and the SDR solution was evolved by the Indian Navy through the efforts of it’s premium R&D organisation, WESEE.


https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... s/1680536/


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