Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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chola
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 22 Sep 2019 16:51

@tsarkar @marko @john @brar

If the NGD is just a fanboy dream then what is the next destroyer class supposed to look like? Our destroyer had been trending up from around 5K-tons in the Rajput, 6K in the Delhi and 7.5K to 8K in the Kolkata and Visakhapatnam. It would make sense that the next one would be around be 9K if not 10K. Especially with the P17A being 7K tons. It makes little sense for the next destroyer class to be only marginally larger than the frigate!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 22 Sep 2019 17:18

The only reason I can imagine we will go for 10k+ cruisers, if we go Khan style: Nirbhay, Brahmos AND carrying PDV BMD missiles.

The 17A design seem to allow lot of space for such plans.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 22 Sep 2019 17:31

chola wrote:@tsarkar @marko @john @brar

If the NGD is just a fanboy dream then what is the next destroyer class supposed to look like? Our destroyer had been trending up from around 5K-tons in the Rajput, 6K in the Delhi and 7.5K to 8K in the Kolkata and Visakhapatnam. It would make sense that the next one would be around be 9K if not 10K. Especially with the P17A being 7K tons. It makes little sense for the next destroyer class to be only marginally larger than the frigate!

Lot of it is speculation and we are not going to find this out for another decade, as we still have P-15b and P-17a under construction. To complicate things we also have Grigorivich class FFG being built and likely more of them will be ordered to placate Russia.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 23 Sep 2019 10:37

John wrote:
chola wrote:@tsarkar @marko @john @brar

If the NGD is just a fanboy dream then what is the next destroyer class supposed to look like? Our destroyer had been trending up from around 5K-tons in the Rajput, 6K in the Delhi and 7.5K to 8K in the Kolkata and Visakhapatnam. It would make sense that the next one would be around be 9K if not 10K. Especially with the P17A being 7K tons. It makes little sense for the next destroyer class to be only marginally larger than the frigate!

Lot of it is speculation and we are not going to find this out for another decade, as we still have P-15b and P-17a under construction. To complicate things we also have Grigorivich class FFG being built and likely more of them will be ordered to placate Russia.


All four P15Bs are already under construction. We only have FFGs planned with the P17A and the Russkie Grigorivich.

I find it hard to believe we have nothing planned for the next destroyer even if we don't begin building it for another decade, Saar.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 23 Sep 2019 14:50

chola wrote:@tsarkar @marko @john @brar If the NGD is just a fanboy dream then what is the next destroyer class supposed to look like?

You'll need to have patience and wait for DND to share the next designs. Presently they're very busy with attack and ballistic missile submarine design and evaluation of Project 75I. In addition their bandwidth is taken up with New Generation Missile Vessels to replace the Veer/Tarantul class, Kukhri/Kora class and earlier Sindhudurg class. And ASW ships to replace the Abhay class.

We have ample frigates and destroyers, so early part of next decade might not see any new designs. As John said, we've 3 programs - Type 15B, Type 17A and Type 1136.6 and between them 15 ships and that matches Chinese fertility rates.

Training of experience crew also requires time, especially ship handlers like Captains, XO's & Navigators. You cant churn them from Kota tuition classes and that requires time. Build rates need to be aligned with crew training and experience. Which is why Chinese ships barely put out to sea. IN & RAN logs more hours at sea than Chinese Navy despite lesser ships.

One pointer is that we avoid large ships cramming everything since a single combat loss takes away significant capabilities in one go. We instead focus on multiple ships with distributed capabilities.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby jaysimha » 23 Sep 2019 17:01

Three landmark events are scheduled during the visit of Hon’ble Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh to Mumbai on 28 September 2019. Commissioning of the 2nd of P-75 submarine ‘Khanderi’, launch of first of the seven P-17A ships ‘Nilgiri’, the follow-on of Shivalik class and commissioning of the Aircraft Carrier Drydock, capable of dry docking Vikramaditya as well as IAC –I.

Image
https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/curtain-raiser

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 23 Sep 2019 22:21

chola wrote:
John wrote:Lot of it is speculation and we are not going to find this out for another decade, as we still have P-15b and P-17a under construction. To complicate things we also have Grigorivich class FFG being built and likely more of them will be ordered to placate Russia.


All four P15Bs are already under construction. We only have FFGs planned with the P17A and the Russkie Grigorivich.

I find it hard to believe we have nothing planned for the next destroyer even if we don't begin building it for another decade, Saar.

To add to Tsarkar had stated there is certainly high level planning going for 2030 and above but that information is confidential. Most of open source information is speculation and widely inaccurate or released by foreign sources to influence decision making, remember the reports of P-17a being based on Admiral Gorshkov FFG?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby srin » 23 Sep 2019 23:16

Even if there isn't a post-P15B destroyer being designed, there should be a follow-on order for more P-15Bs, once the current ones are launched.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Sep 2019 00:26

chola wrote:@tsarkar @marko @john @brar

If the NGD is just a fanboy dream then what is the next destroyer class supposed to look like? Our destroyer had been trending up from around 5K-tons in the Rajput, 6K in the Delhi and 7.5K to 8K in the Kolkata and Visakhapatnam. It would make sense that the next one would be around be 9K if not 10K. Especially with the P17A being 7K tons. It makes little sense for the next destroyer class to be only marginally larger than the frigate!

While we await for more official stuff, I do believe the next generation ddgs will be bigger. That seems like the general trend across most navies esp. the IN. Fwiw there's a rumour of something really big and special.... Cruiser class to join the fleet, which might mean that the ddgs remain sub 10k.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby gpurewal » 24 Sep 2019 00:33

Cain Marko wrote:
chola wrote:@tsarkar @marko @john @brar

If the NGD is just a fanboy dream then what is the next destroyer class supposed to look like? Our destroyer had been trending up from around 5K-tons in the Rajput, 6K in the Delhi and 7.5K to 8K in the Kolkata and Visakhapatnam. It would make sense that the next one would be around be 9K if not 10K. Especially with the P17A being 7K tons. It makes little sense for the next destroyer class to be only marginally larger than the frigate!

While we await for more official stuff, I do believe the next generation ddgs will be bigger. That seems like the general trend across most navies esp. the IN. Fwiw there's a rumour of something really big and special.... Cruiser class to join the fleet, which might mean that the ddgs remain sub 10k.


Looks like there is a certain trend that is happening:
-Corvettes the size of frigates
-Frigates the size of destroyers
-Destroyers the size of cruisers

Well, that is what I am seeing when it comes to displacement.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 24 Sep 2019 01:00

The drydock image has modernized Delhi class with OTO 76/62 SRGM mount and Brahmos inclined launchers.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 24 Sep 2019 01:07

souravB wrote:I would've liked to see an inverted bow design (maybe some inspiration from french Belh@rra class) and some information on UAV/UUV capability. But even without them, the ship's design look fine. Any info on the decoy launchers?

Sourav, forum guidelines do not encourage speculation beyond available indicators. I hope you have read them.

Also, I've noticed that you've plagiarized data from Bharat Rakshak threads and summarized and put in your Bengal Raider blog without credits. That is unethical. Whatever anyone posts here is their intellectual property and you cannot reprint them as your own.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby souravB » 24 Sep 2019 02:00

tsarkar wrote:
souravB wrote:I would've liked to see an inverted bow design (maybe some inspiration from french Belh@rra class) and some information on UAV/UUV capability. But even without them, the ship's design look fine. Any info on the decoy launchers?

Sourav, forum guidelines do not encourage speculation beyond available indicators. I hope you have read them.

TSarkarji, UAV/UUVs are pretty standard on every new frigate design that is coming out or with compatibility for future extension. Same with decoy launchers. Shipbuilders publish that sort of info on their brochure to sell the platforms. I didn't thought it'd be a speculation if the info about solutions are acknowledged by official channels. Official channels do acknowledge the make and model of gun or number of VLSs or make and number of helis. Do not think analyzing presence of such capabilities are speculations.
But if @mods don't like it, I can or they can delete my post.
Also, I've noticed that you've plagiarized data from Bharat Rakshak threads and summarized and put in your Bengal Raider blog without credits. That is unethical. Whatever anyone posts here is their intellectual property and you cannot reprint them as your own.

I think you have confused me with ninjamonkey. I am not ninjamonkey. If you want to accuse somebody of some wrongdoing please make sure it is the right person.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 24 Sep 2019 02:13

srin wrote:Even if there isn't a post-P15B destroyer being designed, there should be a follow-on order for more P-15Bs, once the current ones are launched.

Yea i actually won't be surprised with that option if they decide to order more. I know battle cruiser fans won't be too happy :D

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 24 Sep 2019 13:03

tsarkar wrote:
chola wrote:@tsarkar @marko @john @brar If the NGD is just a fanboy dream then what is the next destroyer class supposed to look like?

You'll need to have patience and wait for DND to share the next designs. Presently they're very busy with attack and ballistic missile submarine design and evaluation of Project 75I. In addition their bandwidth is taken up with New Generation Missile Vessels to replace the Veer/Tarantul class, Kukhri/Kora class and earlier Sindhudurg class. And ASW ships to replace the Abhay class.

We have ample frigates and destroyers, so early part of next decade might not see any new designs. As John said, we've 3 programs - Type 15B, Type 17A and Type 1136.6 and between them 15 ships and that matches Chinese fertility rates.

Training of experience crew also requires time, especially ship handlers like Captains, XO's & Navigators. You cant churn them from Kota tuition classes and that requires time. Build rates need to be aligned with crew training and experience. Which is why Chinese ships barely put out to sea. IN & RAN logs more hours at sea than Chinese Navy despite lesser ships.

One pointer is that we avoid large ships cramming everything since a single combat loss takes away significant capabilities in one go. We instead focus on multiple ships with distributed capabilities.


Tsarkar ji, though I agree that our training is better synced with our build timelines (silver lining for slow production) than the chinis who cannot crew their ship properly those three surface classes in no way come close to the "fertility rate" of Cheen.

For destroyers we have these four in construction/fitting out:
Visakhapatnam - fitting out
Mormugao - fitting out
Imphal - fitting out
Porbandar - under construction

From poster "smooth manifold" on DFI, this what Cheen has in her shipyards for destroyers alone:
update as of Sept. 2019

Jiangnan shipyard:

055#1 (almost in service) DDG 101 Nanchang
055#2 (sea trial)
055#5 (fitting out)
055#7 (under construction)

052DL#14 (sea trial)
052DL#15 (almost sea trial)
052DL#16 (almost sea trial)
052DL#17 (fitting out)
052DL#18 (fitting out)
052DL#21 (fitting out)
052DL#22 (under construction)
052DL#24 (under construction)


Dalian shipyard: 10 destroyers

055#3 (fitting out)
055#4 (fitting out)
055#6 (under construction)
055#8 (under construction)

052D#12 (almost in service) DDG 120 Chengdu
052D#13 (sea trial )
052DL#19 (fitting out)
052DL#20 (fitting out)
052DL#23 (under construction)
052DL#25 (under construction)

summary of the two shipyards:
055: 1 in service, 1 sea trial, 3 fitting out, 3 under construction
052D: 12 in service, 4 sea trial, 5 fitting out, 4 under construction

*******************************
052DL#26~052DL#30??? (status unknown)

052E????(unknown)

055A???(unknown)


I am not afraid of Cheen. They have only 7 or 8 ships in the IOR at any given time and those destroyers posted above will be needed in their home waters in an era of great tensions with Unkil and its allies.

And I have no interest in trying to match them ship per ship but I do want to see signs of our upcoming destroyers. To be honest, now that you and others have sown doubts about the NGD I am a wee bit worried that we might do what the Russians are doing and forgo destroyers for just frigates because of cost?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 24 Sep 2019 14:08

Chola sir, PLAN and IN comparison in 5 years time will be on similar lines to that of IN and PN now. We are not in sight to match their shipbuilding and designing capabilities. Last 2 decades we have designed broadly just two types: P15 and P15+.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 24 Sep 2019 15:43

^^^ Karthik ji, the P17A has inaugurated our entry into modular shipbuilding with the same model being built at multiple yards. This is the first step towards faster and larger production volumes.

As you noted with the P15 and the P15+ classes, destroyers take a long time to design and build. We knew about the Kolkata class for a decade before the actual keel was laid in 2003.

So I worry if we don't hear something now would we see it in ten years?

I was hoping we started on a modular design for destroyers along the P17A. And yes, I dream of a cruiser.

We are trending towards the large size in our frigates and patrol vessels but not DDGs when the rest of Asia is building 10K-tons 100+ VLS ships? Give us signs of a desi Sejong (128 VLS + 16 heavy anti-ship canisters) or Maya (96 VLS + 16 AShM)!

I understand distributing capability across multiple hulls instead of one big giant one but when you are only building runs of just three (P15A) and four (P15B) should not those be as heavily armed as possible? You can't reach that 100 VLS standard with smaller hulls like the P15A/B.

I am also for the other end if the spectrum too. We do not have a corvette or small frigate type that we can pump out in great numbers. I worry that the size (and therefore cost) of the nearly 7K-ton P17A doesn't allow the IN to build a concurrent DDG class.

I rather that we designed a smaller frigate, say around 4K-tons, that we could pump out 12 or more instead of 7 and also have a run of say four large destroyers (following P15B) at the same time.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 24 Sep 2019 17:28


As you noted with the P15 and the P15+ classes, destroyers take a long time to design and build. We knew about the Kolkata class for a decade before the actual keel was laid in 2003.

Navy didn't take the option for P-15a till 2000 ( Gov approved more P-15 in late 80s but navy didn't take option, so I remember discussing whether navy will buy and build Udaloy class in Late 90s as per some rumors) and P-15b till 2011. So I don't know where you getting the dates from. I really don't understand your point so you worried there is no plans released for a cruiser or super destroyer so??
As I stated earlier it is entirely likely more P-15b are ordered and it might happen in a year or two.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 24 Sep 2019 17:55

John wrote:

As you noted with the P15 and the P15+ classes, destroyers take a long time to design and build. We knew about the Kolkata class for a decade before the actual keel was laid in 2003.

Navy didn't take the option for P-15a till 2000 ( I remember discussing whether navy will buy and build Udaloy in discussion boards before that) P-15b till 2011. So I don't know where you getting the dates from. I really don't understand your point so you worried there is no plans released for a cruiser or super destroyer so?? As I stated earlier it is entirely likely more P-15b are ordered.


Let me phase that better. I recall knowing there was an Indian followon class to the Delhi even when that was building and that there was an indigenous followon to the Kolkata when that was building. The NGD folllowed this tradition so I was inclined to believe it.

But if the NGD is just fanboy fantasies then this broke the trend by giving us nothing about the followon to the Visakhapatnam we are building now.

The NGD stories I saw earlier had me expecting and wanting a large destroyer/cruiser. That's all. I am fine with more P15Bs. Though as I pointed out, the other top Asia navies are inducting 100+ VLS vessels.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 25 Sep 2019 01:01

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 25 Sep 2019 01:03

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1176546188415254528 ---> Sweet shot of the Indian Navy's second Scorpène Class submarine INS Khanderi at sea with a Kolkata class destroyer. Khanderi enters naval service this Saturday in Mumbai.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Sep 2019 10:40

chola wrote:^^^ Karthik ji, the P17A has inaugurated our entry into modular shipbuilding with the same model being built at multiple yards. This is the first step towards faster and larger production volumes.

As you noted with the P15 and the P15+ classes, destroyers take a long time to design and build. We knew about the Kolkata class for a decade before the actual keel was laid in 2003.

So I worry if we don't hear something now would we see it in ten years?

I was hoping we started on a modular design for destroyers along the P17A. And yes, I dream of a cruiser.

We are trending towards the large size in our frigates and patrol vessels but not DDGs when the rest of Asia is building 10K-tons 100+ VLS ships? Give us signs of a desi Sejong (128 VLS + 16 heavy anti-ship canisters) or Maya (96 VLS + 16 AShM)!

I understand distributing capability across multiple hulls instead of one big giant one but when you are only building runs of just three (P15A) and four (P15B) should not those be as heavily armed as possible? You can't reach that 100 VLS standard with smaller hulls like the P15A/B.

I am also for the other end if the spectrum too. We do not have a corvette or small frigate type that we can pump out in great numbers. I worry that the size (and therefore cost) of the nearly 7K-ton P17A doesn't allow the IN to build a concurrent DDG class.

I rather that we designed a smaller frigate, say around 4K-tons, that we could pump out 12 or more instead of 7 and also have a run of say four large destroyers (following P15B) at the same time.


I think in the interest of costs and speed of production, the Russki model of using smallish frigates to fire off LRCMs might be something to look into. The P28 is a rather massive beast for its designation as a corvette. We might do well to produce these in large numbers not only as ASW combatants but also as little missile boats. But I think the IN is adapting the Krivaks for this purpose hence the recent deal to build the ships in Goa I suppose

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 25 Sep 2019 18:26

chola wrote:Let me phase that better. I recall knowing there was an Indian followon class to the Delhi even when that was building and that there was an indigenous followon to the Kolkata when that was building. The NGD folllowed this tradition so I was inclined to believe it.

Fair enough just know that it is not confirmed by any official sources and it is all speculation. Track record with speculation have been pretty bad remember next DDG being based on Aegis that circulated in 2010s or P-17a being based on Admiral Gorshkov or P-28 being based on Project 20380 corvette?

Cain Marko wrote:I think in the interest of costs and speed of production, the Russki model of using smallish frigates to fire off LRCMs might be something to look into. The P28 is a rather massive beast for its designation as a corvette. We might do well to produce these in large numbers not only as ASW combatants but also as little missile boats. But I think the IN is adapting the Krivaks for this purpose hence the recent deal to build the ships in Goa I suppose

Talwar class are bigger than P-28 and are primarily being procured to maintain force level (and iMO to appease Russia and bail out Putin) by no means small and currently projected to cost around 600 million so its cheaper than P-17a (but same as Shivalik class) but don't be surprised if costs escalates as they are built by Goa and that differences diminishes. NGMV is the vessel you are looking for,

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Nikhil T » 26 Sep 2019 06:17

chola wrote:^^^ Karthik ji, the P17A has inaugurated our entry into modular shipbuilding with the same model being built at multiple yards. This is the first step towards faster and larger production volumes.


I think modular shipbuilding is the necessary first step, but its insufficient by itself. The Chinese are able to churn out at this rate because of modular shipbuilding technologies, but also higher levels of funding and an efficient supply chain.

On our side, IN's share of capital budget has been reduced under Modi from ~18% to ~14% and even the 18% is inadequate for us to induct anything more than two DDG/FFG ship a year. Second, our supply chain is extremely inefficient. Shipyards are held up for months or years at a time because of delays in obtaining equipment (case in point - Russki steel, Ukraine's engines, or Israel's SAMs), which in turn is delayed because we signed the contracts so late, which in turn is delayed because of the hair-splitting nature of our procurement process. So, by itself, modular construction will not let us match or even come close to the Chinese rate of manufacture. IN may get more money as our economy grows, but the procurement process will hold us back since it's super hard to improve.

Karthik S wrote:Chola sir, PLAN and IN comparison in 5 years time will be on similar lines to that of IN and PN now. We are not in sight to match their shipbuilding and designing capabilities. Last 2 decades we have designed broadly just two types: P15 and P15+.

I think we are already there if we compare head to head - their fleet size is 3-4X ours and their induction rate is 5X ours.
DDGs: IN = 10 (3 inducted since 2010), PLAN: 32 (17 inducted since 2010)
FFGs: IN = 12 (6 inducted since 2010), PLAN: 49 (26 inducted since 2010)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 26 Sep 2019 08:50

PLAN launched their new 40,000t amphib., of the 075 class.We're still stalled on ours, with babudom stopping L& T from getting the contract . While we dawdle, China hurdles forward!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby maz » 26 Sep 2019 08:52

Good data on the PLAN FFG/DDG inductions Nikhil T. The IN cannot rest on its laurels regardless of time at sea, etc, etc. These comparisons are never static so what is true today, maybe true tomorrow and less so with time given the disparity in growth rates between the IN and PLAN. Just look at what what PLAN has achieved in the last decade and try to extrapolate from there.

Beyond the FFGs and DDGs, one ought to look at the overall change in all types of platforms inducted and the picture that emerges clearly points the growing disparity between the IN and PLAN. Sadly, there has been little correlation between the IN's plans and actual inductions for reasons that are well known.

It remains to be seen how effectively modular construction techniques are rolled out across various warship building programs that are underway or about to become active projects. In this, the P17A program will presumably be the litmus test. Hopefully MDL and GRSE are able to deliver hulls within the planned 66 month - 60 month timeframe. In this respect, the launch of the first P17A hull at Mazdocks is over 1 month ahead of the initially envisaged Nov 2019 timeline although completion of the ship and the successful conclusion of trials will be the more useful indicators. Being the first of class, it will not be unusual to experience unforeseen delays arising from trials of the first hull. Hopefully, lessons learnt from previous programs will be /are being incorporated to the P17A build program in a bid to mitigate delays.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 26 Sep 2019 10:24

The speculation was regarding the inverted bow, known as tumblehome, that has extremely poor seakeeping capabilities.

souravB wrote:I think you have confused me with ninjamonkey. I am not ninjamonkey. If you want to accuse somebody of some wrongdoing please make sure it is the right person.

My apologies in that case for the mis-identification

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 26 Sep 2019 10:27

India has a huge range requirement unlike the Russians operating in smaller Black Sea, Baltic Sea or North Sea. Hence they do with smaller ships while we use larger ships for the same set of armaments.

We need range to patrol chokepoints like Malacca Straits and keep lines of communications open with the Persian Gulf for oil supplies.
Last edited by tsarkar on 26 Sep 2019 10:45, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 26 Sep 2019 10:47

Nikhil T wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ Karthik ji, the P17A has inaugurated our entry into modular shipbuilding with the same model being built at multiple yards. This is the first step towards faster and larger production volumes.


I think modular shipbuilding is the necessary first step, but its insufficient by itself. The Chinese are able to churn out at this rate because of modular shipbuilding technologies, but also higher levels of funding and an efficient supply chain.

On our side, IN's share of capital budget has been reduced under Modi from ~18% to ~14% and even the 18% is inadequate for us to induct anything more than two DDG/FFG ship a year. Second, our supply chain is extremely inefficient. Shipyards are held up for months or years at a time because of delays in obtaining equipment (case in point - Russki steel, Ukraine's engines, or Israel's SAMs), which in turn is delayed because we signed the contracts so late, which in turn is delayed because of the hair-splitting nature of our procurement process. So, by itself, modular construction will not let us match or even come close to the Chinese rate of manufacture. IN may get more money as our economy grows, but the procurement process will hold us back since it's super hard to improve.

Karthik S wrote:Chola sir, PLAN and IN comparison in 5 years time will be on similar lines to that of IN and PN now. We are not in sight to match their shipbuilding and designing capabilities. Last 2 decades we have designed broadly just two types: P15 and P15+.

I think we are already there if we compare head to head - their fleet size is 3-4X ours and their induction rate is 5X ours.
DDGs: IN = 10 (3 inducted since 2010), PLAN: 32 (17 inducted since 2010)
FFGs: IN = 12 (6 inducted since 2010), PLAN: 49 (26 inducted since 2010)


Good post, Nikhil ji! I agree with your assessment that modular construction is only one piece of the puzzle. Yes even more important than modern techniques is the development of a local eco-system. Whether it is aircraft or ships, it is imperative that as much of the supply chain be local so that we can operate efficient "industries" not just a PSU or a company.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Nikhil T » 26 Sep 2019 11:18

Sweden out, South Korea in for Rs 45,000 crore submarine project

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 303887.cms

NEW DELHI:The Rs 45,000 crore submarine project contest for the Indian Navy continues to throw up surprises with the last minute entry of a South Korean shipbuilder and the pulling out of Swedish company Saab after red flagging policy strictures that can potentially place unlimited liabilities on foreign vendors.

South Korean company Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering was extended a late invitation to place technical bids for the contract last month, weeks before a visit by defence minister Rajnath Singh to Seoul.

The company now joints the Naval Group (France), TKMS (Germany), Rosoboronexport (Russia) and Navantia (Spain) as potential foreign partners for the project to build six conventional submarines in India. This is the single largest ‘Make in India’ project.

Sources told ET that SAAB, which has been a key participant in pre-bid meetings with stakeholders over the past two years, informed the ministry in writing that it would not be able to take part in the competition. Conditions in the Strategic Partnership (SP) policy under which the contract is being processed led to this decision.

“It is a decision we have made due to the customers’ requirements regarding the time schedule and the requirements related to the SP policy with its unbalance between our possibilities to have control and our obligations and liabilities. We believe that we have a very competitive product that would suit the customer well, but after having examined the EOI, we have decided not to enter the competition due to the above reasons,” Ola Rignell, chairman & managing director at SAAB India, said in response to an ET query.

Similar concerns have been echoed by other foreign vendors in several meetings with stakeholders, ET has been informed. The primary concern of foreign companies—mandated to partner with selected Indian partners to manufacture the submarines here-—is that the conditions in the policy can potentially place unlimited liabilities in their books.

The SP policy gives the lead responsibility of the contract to the Indian vendor that has to hold at least 51% stake in the project, thus taking away control of the special purpose vehicle (SPV) that is to be formed from the foreign technology partner. This, some industry executives say, has implications as the quality and timelines required cannot be guaranteed by the foreign partner.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 26 Sep 2019 11:26

SoKo's latest is a larger version of its license- built U- boats. Tricky whether the Germans will allow them to export their proprietary tech.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 26 Sep 2019 11:42

Philip wrote:SoKo's latest is a larger version of its license- built U- boats. Tricky whether the Germans will allow them to export their proprietary tech.


They've already sold them to the Indonesians. It is the same Type 209 we had except it looks like they got full ToT and can export it.

It would be a kick in the nuts if we end up buying the Type 209 again -- just from Korea this time.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Sep 2019 13:28

Something must have happened to give them last minute entry, surely they'll be no match for French, German or Russians.

Aren't we looking for huge Diesel Electric Submarine as SPECIAL PURPOSE VEHICLE? Which only Japanese Soryu is. But they are dying to sell to white Australia but not to fellow Strategic Asian Friend Bharat.

So only leaves french shortfin Barracuda.

German biggest sub tops at 2300 tons for Israel Dolphin.

For sure we aren't looking for Scorpene sized platform.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Sep 2019 14:14

India Navy fully pays for frigates under construction at Russian shipyard

this quote in the article caught my eye

The warships of this type are armed with A-190 100mm artillery guns, striking missile and air defence systems, including Kalibr and Shtil complexes and torpedo tubes. The frigates displace 3,620 tonnes, are 124.8 meters long, develop a speed of 30 knots and have an operating range of 4,850 miles. The frigates can carry a Ka-27 helicopter and its modification.


Now that we are no longer restricted by MTCR- does that mean Kalibr's are replacing Klub's, hmmm.yummy

Here is the original TASS link, I dont think TASS has done a typo here

https://tass.com/defense/1079625

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 26 Sep 2019 16:17

^ Just a mistake in Russian report they mentioned domestic name rather than export name, the ship has Universal VLS and can fire Klub & Brahmos. It is most likely to be equipped with latter.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 26 Sep 2019 17:03

Aditya_V wrote:India Navy fully pays for frigates under construction at Russian shipyard

this quote in the article caught my eye

The warships of this type are armed with A-190 100mm artillery guns, striking missile and air defence systems, including Kalibr and Shtil complexes and torpedo tubes. The frigates displace 3,620 tonnes, are 124.8 meters long, develop a speed of 30 knots and have an operating range of 4,850 miles. The frigates can carry a Ka-27 helicopter and its modification.


Now that we are no longer restricted by MTCR- does that mean Kalibr's are replacing Klub's, hmmm.yummy

Here is the original TASS link, I dont think TASS has done a typo here

https://tass.com/defense/1079625


The last batch of 3 Talwar class frigates are armed with Brahmos. Isn't Kalibr sub-sonic throughout, unlike the supersonic termincal phase of the Klub? Kalibr is probaly more for land attack then for anti-ship. Maybe I am wrong.
Would prefer to see the Brahmos on the ships through. Without the MTCR restriction, Brahmos now has a range of 450-600 Kms. Thats more then enough for any land atatck role, especially against the pukes. Note that all 6 Talwar class are with the western naval command.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Sep 2019 17:08

But we can attack land Targets at longer range with Kalibr. A sea launched missile can make at an unexpected angle and take out crucial air defences easing up the job of the IAF. That is till Nirbhay comes along

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 26 Sep 2019 17:29

Any news or chaiwala info on nirbhay? Can't find anything after April test.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 26 Sep 2019 18:02

mody wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:India Navy fully pays for frigates under construction at Russian shipyard

this quote in the article caught my eye



Now that we are no longer restricted by MTCR- does that mean Kalibr's are replacing Klub's, hmmm.yummy

Here is the original TASS link, I dont think TASS has done a typo here

https://tass.com/defense/1079625


The last batch of 3 Talwar class frigates are armed with Brahmos. Isn't Kalibr sub-sonic throughout, unlike the supersonic termincal phase of the Klub? Kalibr is probaly more for land attack then for anti-ship. Maybe I am wrong.
Would prefer to see the Brahmos on the ships through. Without the MTCR restriction, Brahmos now has a range of 450-600 Kms. Thats more then enough for any land atatck role, especially against the pukes. Note that all 6 Talwar class are with the western naval command.

Kalibr is the domestic name for Klub it includes 3M-54e which has supersonic terminal stage. I don't believe Russians operate that In fact I believe they mainly only purchased 3m-14 which is LACM.


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