Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 04 Apr 2020 01:43

The Paki Type 54A comes with a chini UVLS for SAMs and (and ASW) but unlikely to be able to fire any russkie weapons. Buying the Talwars to keep them and their weapon systems away from TSP is not a proper explanation IMHO. Those frigates need to be judged on their own merit. I rather we build our own but we do have limited dock space among our main naval suppliers, for the PSUs anyways, so buying them to build up numbers quickly is a better reason.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby yensoy » 04 Apr 2020 09:43

With the Wuhanvirus aftermath, every dollar we keep within India and use to build infrastructure/help fellow countrymen get jobs is going to be even more important than before. RBI has spent some amount of its hoarded Forex to keep the rupee stable and the recession is just starting. This is not the time to be squandering forex on foreign arms purchases when these arms can be built locally, even if there is will be a delay in procuring these arms. Alternately, we could use the recession as a tool to negotiate on prices, and if there is a decent discount the imports can pencil out.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 04 Apr 2020 15:32

tsarkar wrote:Chinese Type 54/A has older Kashmir missile instead of newer Shtil-1 on Type 1135.6 that we wanted to deny them.

We also wanted to deny Pakistan the Klub-S supersonic missiles and Club land attack missiles that came with those ships


At the time of the purchase there was no plan of the Russians to sell these ships to TSP.

Second the TSPN is getting the type 54 D.

So the logic of denying weapons to TSP is not really sound.

It's more like the Russians were straddled with ships that they didn't want and lacked the ability to finish them and India in its nievity thought that we could buy a the hulks from Russians and engines from Ukraine and finish the ships.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 04 Apr 2020 18:55

Pratyush wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Chinese Type 54/A has older Kashmir missile instead of newer Shtil-1 on Type 1135.6 that we wanted to deny them.

We also wanted to deny Pakistan the Klub-S supersonic missiles and Club land attack missiles that came with those ships


At the time of the purchase there was no plan of the Russians to sell these ships to TSP.

Second the TSPN is getting the type 54 D.

So the logic of denying weapons to TSP is not really sound.

It's more like the Russians were straddled with ships that they didn't want and lacked the ability to finish them and India in its nievity thought that we could buy a the hulks from Russians and engines from Ukraine and finish the ships.

Russia is actually finishing the ships only 2 out of 3 which are sitting unfinished. They will be delivered by Yantar SY only by 2024.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 04 Apr 2020 20:14

All the more reason why this is a bad deal. The ships will not be reaching the fleet before the improved Shivalik. So the irony that the navy will be having 2 new ship classes not being able to share data amongst each other and one being inferior to the other.

Great purchase.

Better option would have been to build 4 more shivaliks.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 04 Apr 2020 21:38

Pratyush wrote:All the more reason why this is a bad deal. The ships will not be reaching the fleet before the improved Shivalik. So the irony that the navy will be having 2 new ship classes not being able to share data amongst each other and one being inferior to the other.

Great purchase.

Better option would have been to build 4 more shivaliks.

Yeap building P-17s fitted with Barak-8 or building more modified P28s is what I have been suggesting. Modified P-28 with gas turbines can be fitted with 8 cell brahmos in place of RBU-6000 and 2x8 cell Barak-8 instead of SR SAM. The latter probably more riskier option but will be cheaper.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 05 Apr 2020 05:10

yensoy wrote: Alternately, we could use the recession as a tool to negotiate on prices, and if there is a decent discount the imports can pencil out.


Forget discount on imports. To arrest the falling numbers of submarines and in view of the negotiations/finalization of the P75I winner likely to be stretched India is negotiating for importing Kilos as a stop gap measure and guess what is the price being asked for by Russia for selling us 3 of its used Kilos and upgrading 3 of our old ones? $1.8 Billion.That is we would be spending $300 million for getting six old 20-30 year old upgraded subs.This when Russia sold new Kilos to Vietnam at $300-350 Million. So instead of us getting discount due to recession it is the other way round -Taking advantage of our desperate situation foreign suppliers would be instead extracting a premium.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 05 Apr 2020 06:27

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Last edited by Philip on 05 Apr 2020 06:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Indranil » 05 Apr 2020 06:31

Those were 2009 prices! 3 refurbished kilos and 3 new kilos at 1.8 billion is a great price in 2020.

Think about it: a submarine at the cost of a Rafale!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 05 Apr 2020 06:32

The report,now by Jane's too,that the IN is favourably considerimg a " 3+3" Kilo acquisition of refurbished Ru and IN kilos for just $1,8-2.0 B ,underscores what I've been postulating ever after the SR disaster happened. The huge 5yr+ delay in Scorpenes meant a " black hole",pardon the pun, in our sub fleet. While we were dithering for around 2 decades,Vietnam ordered 6 new 636.3s at just $300M a pop. I had posted some time ago upgrade costs of our Kilos costing $200M a pop. After the Viet order,Russia too ordered 6 new 636.3s for its eastern fleet reinforced by the excellent showing of its Kilos in the Meditt. firing Kalibir missiles at ISIS.

If the deal goes through,and there are two good reasons for the same, the IN will be able to plug the gap for 10 years in the inventory of our overall sub fleet.First remember that we earlier had 10
Kilos at the Millenium. The SR was destroyed by the explosions,and another, the Sindhuvir acquired fron the Sov.U in 1988, has been transferred to Burma as a goodwill gesture and to checkmate China who had already transferred an old sub of theirs to BDesh. However,as usual its a case of too little too late.We could've ordered the extra Kilos at least a decade ago,would've been in service now as new boats, instead of refurbished ones.The cost benefit is there though in these difficult times,half the cost of a new sub. Beggars can't be choosers...?

There is one possibility why these refurbished subs are being considered,the Kalibir missile.Since we are in the MTCR,there is no bar on us acquiring missiles of 300km+ range.There was a report last year,can't remember the source that spoke of Kalibir missiles on offer.If these do come along with the 6 Kilos,it will be a huge advance in the subs already excellent capability.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 05 Apr 2020 08:24

Indranil wrote:Those were 2009 prices! 3 refurbished kilos and 3 new kilos at 1.8 billion is a great price in 2020.

Think about it: a submarine at the cost of a Rafale!


I am disappointed if the government is thinking about new built kilo class.

The new sub building center in MDL is capable of so much if only they are given orders to build subs.

But the Navy will be getting Russian maal. While domestic capacity get's delayed for another 10 years.

Why not continue with the scorpion construction at MDL while domestic design improves.

Or better yet build the scorpion with indian developed systems.

Everyone, please spare me the data breach issue with the scorpion. Especially when the PRC operates the kilo class.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 05 Apr 2020 09:00

Indranil wrote:Those were 2009 prices! 3 refurbished kilos and 3 new kilos at 1.8 billion is a great price in 2020.

Think about it: a submarine at the cost of a Rafale!


If price point is our reason for buying 3 decade old junk then how about this? Indonesia just last year signed up with Daewoo to buy 3 Brand new subs for $1.02 Billion. Makes imminent sense for us as this will be an upgraded version of Type 209 which we have in our service.

This heavy price tag for 3 decade old subs does not make sense unless we are on the sly paying for acquiring some critical technology or force multiplier.

Also check: https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation ... 67110.html
Last edited by Vips on 05 Apr 2020 09:11, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Mort Walker » 05 Apr 2020 09:07

No more Russian garbage!

Build more Arihant class subs!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 05 Apr 2020 09:16

The irony of South Korean type 209 -1400 is delicious. We had the ability to make the 1500 and let it go to waste 20 years ago. We have the ability to make the Scorpion today and are letting it go to waste.

PS If P 75 is is scorpion then why does the P75I has to be different boat??

PPS Anyone remember the capacity of the sub-building center inaugurated by Modi at MDL?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Picklu » 05 Apr 2020 13:26

tsarkar wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Like the PRC wont be building type 54 for the TSPN?? That India needed to buy ships from Russia to keep them out of TSP hands.

Chinese Type 54/A has older Kashmir missile instead of newer Shtil-1 on Type 1135.6 that we wanted to deny them.

We also wanted to deny Pakistan the Klub-S supersonic missiles and Club land attack missiles that came with those ships



What will stop Russia to continue building these in the future too for the sake of keeping their SY functional? Will we continue buying them to deny capabilities to Pak? Are we getting into an iron clad agreement with them that they won't sell anything to Pak in future?

Looks like a "hafta vasooli" tactics by the Russians to me.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 05 Apr 2020 16:44

Vips,if you read my posts for aeons,I have been the most prolific advocate on BRF fot buying new U-boats to replace our U-209s in a G-2-G deal. The Scorpene prog. has been anything but a success,5 yr. delays,plus data leaked, and non AIP in the bargain. The two most successful subs being built are Kilos,over 70 built and U-boats based upon the 209 model ( 212/214,etc.).

The Kilos have Ru weaponry not possible to install for various reasons on western subs, plus Ru subs have their own unique features- double hull, sensors,etc. giving them their advantageous capabilities. BMos NG will be sized to fit the tubes of our Ru subs. Right now with 8 Kilos,most upgraded, ,they are the mainstay of our sub fleet like the MKIs.These 6 extra upgrades will allow older Kilos to retire- be used for training ,experimental purposes,etc.,whilst still keeping at least 8 Kilos fully operationable. 8 Kilos,6 Scorpenes plus at least 4 U-boats will give us 18 conv. boats,a few Akula SSGNs,a v.handy sub force for the current decade. Arihant class subs/ variants belong to the strategic command and cannot be considered part of the navy's offensive sub fleet. In reality,we need at least 24 conv.AIP subs,plus at least 6 SSNs and approx. 3/4 SSGNs. By the end of this decade, China will have 80 subs and Pak at least 12.

Therefore,a second line of Ru subs is also needed to get the best of both worlds. Post 2030,we can design and build our own conv. AIP subs incorporating the best of both worlds.
The Arihant with heavy Ru input by the way, is a fledgling SSBN, not a conv. attack sub .We are yet to master basic sub design.Take Rubin the bureau for the Kilo,have built over 1000 subs including the latest Borei class SSBNs. The 6 SSN desi subs to come are going to take some time in coming as right now there are huge revolutionary concepts in UW with a proliferation of UUVs using larger mother subs for surveillance and offensive ops.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 05 Apr 2020 19:48

Philip wrote:The Kilos have Ru weaponry not possible to install for various reasons on western subs, plus Ru subs have their own unique features- double hull, sensors,etc.

That’s false Brahmos-ng will also arm Scorpene. Kilos themselves are viewed to be inferior to U-209 and Scorpene primarily due to their outdated CMS and batteries (we replace Russian batteries for good reason). As I said if we really wanted Kilo we could have bought new ones which are still being built. We are doing this rusting Kilo purchase IMO to shore up Putin admin which is desperate for $$ in its oil war with Saudis.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Prithwiraj » 05 Apr 2020 20:43

I think a lot of planned capacity building in near terms will get stalled due to capital outlay for corona virus. A lot of companies will need huge bailout otherwise Modi is not coming a third term. Hopefully it will reduce the propensity for imports

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Prithwiraj » 05 Apr 2020 20:46

Also it is a trend that ships are perfect breeding ground for corona. Our ships keep on doing port calls. We probably need to make a careful observation of all such cases. USS Roosevelt is a perfect example. We don’t see a lot of cruise ship traffic so that is a savior.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 05 Apr 2020 21:38

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/124 ... 88896?s=20 ---> The L&T's Torpedo Launch Complex:

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Indranil » 06 Apr 2020 08:25

I will look forward to a technical discussion on why Kilos are a bad buy today for the quoted price.

Calling it Russian junk is just showcasing of bias.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Apr 2020 09:23

Indranil wrote:I will look forward to a technical discussion on why Kilos are a bad buy today for the quoted price.




Good luck!!!!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 06 Apr 2020 09:28

Indranil wrote:I will look forward to a technical discussion on why Kilos are a bad buy today for the quoted price.

Calling it Russian junk is just showcasing of bias.

Kilo are fine stop gap purchases but the fact they we are buying used which makes it bad purchase IMO because with used submarine there is lot of unknown ( were these well maintained or siting in the open collecting rust).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 06 Apr 2020 14:20

nachiket wrote:
tsarkar wrote:We also wanted to deny Pakistan the Klub-S supersonic missiles and Club land attack missiles that came with those ships

Will we be getting the Klub-S? That would make these ships somewhat better, not as good as the Shivaliks of course but I'm just trying to find a silver lining here.


https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 60/photo/1
Image

We have the Klub S since early 2000's onboard the Talwar and Shivalik class frigates. And Sindhurakshak and Sindhushastra that were purchased at the turn of the century. Other Sindhu submarines got the capability post upgrades.

Teg class has L&T UVLM that fires Brahmos whose anti ship or land attack version may be carried offering more range and flexibility than Club S

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 06 Apr 2020 14:29

Indranil wrote:I will look forward to a technical discussion on why Kilos are a bad buy today for the quoted price.

My technical reasons
1. Low capex but high opex
2. Older hulls with current structural soundness not known and refurbishing is more complex than new build. Its easier to make a new omelette than try to "repair" a fragmented omelette.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 06 Apr 2020 14:42

Pratyush wrote:The irony of South Korean type 209 -1400 is delicious. We had the ability to make the 1500 and let it go to waste 20 years ago. We have the ability to make the Scorpion today and are letting it go to waste.

PS If P 75 is is scorpion then why does the P75I has to be different boat??

PPS Anyone remember the capacity of the sub-building center inaugurated by Modi at MDL?


The idea that we need to once again look at importing kilos or anything else after the Type 209 and Scorpene projects is simply nuts to me. Those projects were supposed to set up an indigenous industry. If we need to import the next class of SSKs anyways then why bother paying extra for the ToT and waiting on a painfully extended timeline?

The Koreans imported the Type 209 technology, developed their infrastructure around that imported tech and now they are selling indigenous subs. We seem to have a different idea on leveraging ToT. People like the Koreans import ToT once and then go indigenous. We import ToT again and again ...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 06 Apr 2020 14:52

As I mentioned before, for the Kilo class, we use our own Sonar - USHUS, our own batteries and now we will have our own torpedoes as well. The Kalibr or sub-launched Nirbhay and Brahmos-NG can be added, whenever they are available. Hence, buying used hulls makes sense for India, though new build hulls would be better. However, the main advantage in buying used hulls would be the price and faster delivery time. The sub with all Indian and Russian equipment and upgrades, if it costs us about $250-300 million each, it would be very good buy. The second factor is the time. The subs should start entering service at the most within 3 years of signing the deal, with 1 new build and 1 old sub joining each year. This way, within 6 years of signing the contract, we get 6 additional kilo class subs. Just in time, to start retiring the old kilo subs.
Maybe we can also add the ALTIS towed array sonar, to the kilo subs, whenever that gets ready for induction.

Why we are not opting to produce additional Scorpene subs or scorpene-U209-1500 hybrid subs at MDL is a mystery to me. Additional 3 to 4 of these would keep the sub line at MDL working, with subs with increasing levels of indigenisation rolling off.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby dinesh_kimar » 06 Apr 2020 17:41

Indranil wrote:I will look forward to a technical discussion on why Kilos are a bad buy


Dunno Saar, let me try.

- This seems a stop gap to replenish nos., not connected to
new build P75 I.( So repeat order of existing types only)

- 3 additional Scorpenes would be welcome, retain/improve mfg.capability of submarines. But expensive. And France shafted us.

- Kilo may be more cost effective, and large sub has higher range/endurance, but reliability isn't the best, and we don't have credible refit capabilities (HSL efforts for a single Kilo are noted). All major upgrades or refits still with Russia, and we lose heavily on refits and maintenance. Expensive. And Russia shafted us.

- Type 209 from Daewoo/HDW , if cheaper, is my choice. Lesser endurance maybe, but more reliable, longer life of 40 years (German vs Russian), much indegenised and understood by our people, all upgrades and refits at MDL, capability to fire Sub-Harpoon and new DRDO Sonar make it unbeatable. It's cheaper when done in house. And Germany transferred technology, all good. (It's Suzuki Jimny vs Lada).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Indranil » 06 Apr 2020 19:18

Okay, I have revised my stand. And that is not because some great technical knowledge came about. But, because I relaized that the 3+3 deal is the refurbishing cost of 3 old Indian +3 old Russian submarines. I don't think it will serve the long term purpose. Allowing Pipavav to overhaul the Indian kilos in India is a better proposition in my humble view. Kilos are extremely quite submarines. There's a reason why they are so successful and revered by not just adopters but also NATO countries. Even today Kilos are being built for the Russian Navy.

tsarkar wrote:
Indranil wrote:I will look forward to a technical discussion on why Kilos are a bad buy today for the quoted price.

My technical reasons
1. Low capex but high opex
2. Older hulls with current structural soundness not known and refurbishing is more complex than new build. Its easier to make a new omelette than try to "repair" a fragmented omelette.

I agree with this. I am not very keen on those old hulls to. Many people have looked at those and not found them worth the money. Interestingly, the Koreans valued the 3 for $1.1 bln.

dinesh_kimar wrote:- Type 209 from Daewoo/HDW , if cheaper, is my choice. Lesser endurance maybe, but more reliable, longer life of 40 years (German vs Russian), much indegenised and understood by our people, all upgrades and refits at MDL, capability to fire Sub-Harpoon and new DRDO Sonar make it unbeatable. It's cheaper when done in house. And Germany transferred technology, all good. (It's Suzuki Jimny vs Lada).

Type 209s don't come for $330 million these days. Indonesia exercised an option from an order in 2011. 3 boats were ordered then for $1.1 billion. Expect the prices to double by now. And by the way, the Indonesians haven't had very good luck with the upkeep of those boats.

Algeria bought two Kilos for $1.2 billion in 2014. Our Scorpenes costed us $500 million per boat in 2005 (of course it had a lot of overhead).

Probably, the best way forward is to have MDL build 6 more Scorpenes with DRDOs AIP and L&T to pick there own partners to build 6 more AIP submarines. But, the combined bill for such procurements would be around $12 billion. I don't think that will be accepted. And even if it is, there will be nothing fast about it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby arvin » 06 Apr 2020 20:40

Against Pakis used kilos with our electronics will be good enough. Plus we will also be getting p8i at dabolim, AsW helis and sea gaurdians.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Apr 2020 20:42

There is an offer - still on the table - by Naval Group to build three more Scorpenes. India should take up this offer. On the Russian offer of 3+3 boats, it would be better to purchase 3 new Kilo (Type 636) boats rather than spending money on a refurbished Russian vessel (the Vikramaditya episode comes to mind). India currently operates 8+1 Kilo (Type 877EKM) boats. The three Indian Kilos that need refurbishing should be done in India itself.

3 new Scorpenes + 3 new Kilo (Type 636) boats = Project 75I. It will be cheaper than going in for a new type and a quicker unit acquisition as well. The Project 75I program, just like the MMRCA contest, needs to be scrapped. I am hoping that the new budget figures make that a reality.

I am happy that the Govt is giving more focus to the submarine area versus the aircraft program (IAC-2). Another white elephant program IMVHO. I am not talking about the utility of the aircraft carrier, but what the navy wants in IAC-2 is asking for too much. It would be more feasible to spend that money on the development of the TEDBF and churn out another Vikrant Class vessel.

Remember, the six SSN program also needs to be funded. Along with the additional Arihant Class vessels and the succeeding class of SSBN. The Govt needs to close the door on the P75I program.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 06 Apr 2020 20:48

Indranil wrote:Algeria bought two Kilos for $1.2 billion in 2014. Our Scorpenes costed us $500 million per boat in 2005 (of course it had a lot of overhead).

At 600 mill that still seems like a better deal than a used older model Kilo for 300+ mill (keep in mind the other 2 are upgrades which certainly doesn’t cost 300 mill each). We be lucky to get another decade of service out of the used ones. Refurbishing a used submarine is equally as complex as building a new one and Russian seem to be able to crank out new ones in 3 years I doubt russians can refurbish a used one that fast.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Apr 2020 21:23

And the Russian Navy is still building Type 636s. They just commissioned one last year. Average time - from keel laying to commissioning - is three years. That is hyper-sonic speed by Indian shipbuilding standards :)

Russia launches seventh Improved Kilo-class submarine Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky
https://navaltoday.com/2019/03/28/russi ... kamchatsky
28 March 2019

Russia's Kilo-Class Submarines Are a Real Threat
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... reat-89371
19 Oct 2019

Vietnam bought six 636.3 boats, with five so far delivered, as the nucleus of an anti-access/area-denial force against its traditional enemy, China. The two countries have a history of mutual hostility, currently stoked by Chinese oil drilling in a contested Exclusive Economic Zone and competing claims in the South China Sea. Vietnam purchased six submarines for an estimated $1.8 billion dollars—a real bargain.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Apr 2020 21:30

I am going to stop, before someone accuses me of being like Philip :mrgreen:

Second Improved Kilo-Class / Project 636.3 Submarine Launched For Russia’s Pacific Fleet
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... fic-fleet/
30 Dec 2019

Mooring trials of Volkhov diesel-electric improved Kilo-class submarine of project 636.3
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... 636-3.html
04 March 2020

Whole bunch of articles on the Type 636.3 series of boats ---> https://thediplomat.com/tag/project-636-3-kilo-class/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 07 Apr 2020 15:55

I think we should use the current economic crises to re-access the whole situation and look to manufacture the submarines in house itself.
We already have expertise in a number of areas of submarine construction.
1). We have the hull designs of the Scorpene and the drawings for the Shishukumar class. We have the expertise in fabricating the hulls of submarines, from the scorpene project and the Arihant class. We also have the required raw material available in house from DMRL. We can start off the construction of the first submarine, using the same raw material, as used for the Scorpene class. We are also trying to develop better high nitrogen steel, that can be used for future submarines.
2). For sonars, we have the choice between our own USHUS sonar as used on the Kilo class, the French sonar on the scorpene or the german sonar on the Shishukumar class. We can take our pick. If the performance of the French sonar is found to be better than the USHUS and justifies the extra cost, go with it. If not, we can stick with the USHUS and look to develop the same further. If the experience with the German sonar is good, we can also take a look at the latest offering from TKMS.
3). We now have the heavy weight torpedoes in house in the Varunastra and the L&T developed torpedo launch module of the sub. From the looks of the module, it seems to have been designed for a Kilo class type of sub, but maybe we can adapt it for use with any kind of hull design.
4). We have our own batteries for the subs, that we use on the Kilo class or we can look to import the batteries. Multiple sources exists and maybe in the future, the battery technology with Lithium-ion or Lithium-polymer batteries, will make the need for AIP modules redundant.
5). We have the quietening technics from the Scorpene project.
6). The main machinery can be imported from TKMS or Naval Group. We can make our own propeller design from a combination of the Scorpene and Shishukumar designs.
7). The DRDO developed AIP module is almost ready and the shore based prototype is ready. It should get ready to put on a sub, within 2-3 years time. It does not need to be the best in the world. If it can improve the endurance of the submarine, as compared to non-AIP subs, then it's a good enough to start with.
8]. Some torpedo counter measure systems, we already have.
9). The rest of the electronics, the periscope and combat management systems etc. can be imported.

Manish_Sharma
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Apr 2020 16:49

Indranil wrote:I will look forward to a technical discussion on why Kilos are a bad buy today for the quoted price.

Calling it Russian junk is just showcasing of bias.


Russians always sabotage our 'production' of good quality French platforms, be it Mirage in 80s which were to built here and Russians pressure us into buying pathetic mig 29s which were hanger queens mostly, NOW we have Scorpene running in production which can easily given order of 3 more subs, giving work to our own shipyard, but nope Russians again push their own pathetic kilo which is so lowly that it blew up in dock.

Remember Russians Cheats hooked us by offering Gorshkov for FREE and refurbishing charges 700 millions WHICH RUSSIAN THUGS BALOONED TO 2.3 BILLION DOLLARS LATER.

Don't drool over russian cheap prices its just a bait to fleece us later.

kit
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 07 Apr 2020 17:07

Does anyone know the exact condition / specifications of the 3 Russian subs on order ? , are they hulls being rebuilt or are they used and mothballed ones or used and refurbished ? .. without such info how do we make an informed judgement / opinion on that deal ?

Rakesh
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2020 20:40

If it is anything like the Gorshkov, may Varuna help us!

Indranil
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Indranil » 07 Apr 2020 22:25

Read the comments above all the way up to the links that Rakesh shared. What information has come about in these posts. If you guys want to argue with opinions, I am going to bow out. In fact, I am gone!

John
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 08 Apr 2020 00:39

kit wrote:Does anyone know the exact condition / specifications of the 3 Russian subs on order ? , are they hulls being rebuilt or are they used and mothballed ones or used and refurbished ? .. without such info how do we make an informed judgement / opinion on that deal ?

I doubt even Russia knows fully amount of work involved and condition of the hull, like Gorshkov only after we sign the dotted lines will we start finding out. Keep in mind this is the deal that is being pushed by Russia.


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