Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 21 Oct 2020 23:35

Philip wrote:If at all CG vessels need to also have an SSM option, we can take a leaf out of the Iranian navy's manual, where tiny bumboats have been fitted with smaller SSMs. Granted in the confined waters of the Persian Gulf these bumboats make sense.

Replied in the appropriate thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2466257#p2466257

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 22 Oct 2020 13:29

@ANI

INS Kavaratti, last of the 4 indigenously built Anti-Submarine Warfare stealth corvettes, is all set to join Indian Navy.

Designed by Indian Navy's Directorate of Naval Design, the ship portrays our growing capability in becoming self-reliant through indigenization: Indian Navy

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 22 Oct 2020 16:38

Rakesh wrote:
V_Raman wrote:If Japan and China can license build the Kockum engine - we cannot ?!
Since you have not visited the righteous babus who work at North Block, you are forgiven for making that statement.

Just once in your life, just once sir, do visit if you are able. Let me know how that works out for you.

V_Raman wrote:corruption or not sweden gave us a full faith gun ToT with bofors - so they can be trusted.
They have to participate in the P75I contest and since they have now pulled out, that is a moot point.

During the visit do remember that

North Block = Vrit Mantralaya
South Block = Raksha and Videsh Mantralaya

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Oct 2020 17:09

Vidur wrote: During the visit do remember that

North Block = Vrit Mantralaya
South Block = Raksha and Videsh Mantralaya

Oops

Sorry Sir

There is a well known joke (which I am sure you have heard of Vidur-ji)....

Q. What was AK Antony's greatest accomplishment as Raksha Mantri?
A. To guard and defend the furniture at North Block

That is why I assumed MoD offices were at North Block.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 22 Oct 2020 17:15

Vidur wrote: During the visit do remember that

North Block = Vrit Mantralaya
South Block = Raksha and Videsh Mantralaya

Vidur Sir,two questions IN is really short on submarines with Scorpene leak fiasco and other submarines hard to come by why urgent buy of kilo submarine is not envisioned , what is your thought on getting the sub number up ?

Secondly we also lack anti-mine crafts, last contract with Korean company fell because they refuse TOT for fiber glass technology, why can't we reproduce existing aluminum hull ones (they are old designs) but better than having nothing at all. Will really appreciate your inputs.

idan · Post by **idan** » 22 Oct 2020 17:45

First nuclear SSN hull will be ready in the next 2 years. India is committed to spend $14 billion on this programme. Why go for old Kilo class diesel electrics? For littoral waters the existing + new Scorpene + project 75I should suffice

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Oct 2020 17:55

idan wrote:First nuclear SSN hull will be ready in the next 2 years. India is committed to spend $14 billion on this programme. Why go for old Kilo class diesel electrics? For littoral waters the existing + new Scorpene + project 75I should suffice

the kilos are among the quietest of subs ever built

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Oct 2020 20:32

krishna_krishna wrote:Vidur Sir, two questions IN is really short on submarines with Scorpene leak fiasco and other submarines hard to come by why urgent buy of kilo submarine is not envisioned, what is your thought on getting the sub number up ?

Not Vidur Sir, but the Scorpene program was moving painfully slow...but is now picking up. See below.

* INS Kalvari was laid down on 01 April 2009 and was commissioned on 14 December 2017. That is a time span of nearly 9 years.
* INS Khanderi was laid down in Oct 2011 and was commissioned on 28 September 2019. That is almost 8 years.
* The Karanj was laid down in Dec 2012 and is expected to be commissioned in Dec 2020. That will be 6 years.

A number of reasons for the delay, but the program is finally picking up pace. The irony is that when this deal was signed in Oct 2005, it was expected that all six boats would be in service by 2012. We are now 8 years over schedule and the sixth and final boat will arrive only by 2022.

It is for this VERY reason that not a single Project 75I vessel will join the Indian Navy by 2030. If a 1,600+ ton SSK program is ten years over schedule, imagine what a far more complicated and state-of-the-art build program - like the Project 75I - will take. We are only in RFI stage of Project 75I. And by 2030, the Indian Navy will have a mere 6 Kalvari Class boats in service, against a projected minimum of 18 SSKs.

The Scorpene line is still active and Naval Group has reportedly offered 3 more Scorpenes. But once that line is closed, to restart it will be more expensive. Best to follow through NOW (prior to 2021 end), if the Navy wants additional Scorpenes.

Please MoD...do not do redux of C-17 acquisition model.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Oct 2020 20:36

chetak wrote:
idan wrote:First nuclear SSN hull will be ready in the next 2 years. India is committed to spend $14 billion on this programme. Why go for old Kilo class diesel electrics? For littoral waters the existing + new Scorpene + project 75I should suffice
the kilos are among the quietest of subs ever built

idan, there is a reason why NATO calls the Kilo Class boat the Black Hole. And that nickname was given to the Type 877 variant that the Indian Navy has. The Type 636.3 is even more quieter than her predecessor. She is not to be taken lightly. IN submariners love the Kilo for that very reason. The Russian Navy operates around 12 Type 636.3 boats and they are all recent inductions (from 2014 onwards and still continuing).

And from keel laying to commissioning, the Type 636.3 is now averaging two years. It started out at four years. Compare that to my post above on the Scorpene from keel laying to commissioning. Cancel the Ka-226 order and give Putin order for the Type 636.3 boat. Even quicker can be a couple being built right now for the Russian Navy, transferred to the Indian Navy. And let Rubin build the remaining as well.

At every naval exercise with the US Navy, our Kilo boats have always come out on top. The IN has won every one of them. To paraphrase one of our retired Navy Admirals, "That is to be expected. If that was not the case, it would be concerning."

Obviously, the US Navy has sufficient (and proven) measures to deal with SSKs. But to come close to a USN Carrier Strike Group and launch a few torpedoes is not an easy thing to do. The Swedish Gotland Class achieved the same results against the US Navy.

It is just the nature of the SSK. Inherently quiet and very challenging to track.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 22 Oct 2020 20:57

Rakesh wrote: But to come close to a USN Carrier Strike Group and launch a few torpedoes is not an easy thing to do. The Swedish Gotland Class achieved the same results against the US Navy.

In a scripted exercise, with range limitations, common agreed upon parameters and each running a set of tactics that such an environment allows one to freely do (both to learn and validate). It was not a combat simulation exercise and I believe nothing to that effect (SSK against CBG or modern SSK against modern SSN) has ever been published (like for example a Gotland vs Seawolf analysis) even though they (simulation exercises) are conducted with allies and inform the continued acoustic signature management efforts (collectively known as the Acoustic Superiority program) on USN SSN's. Points often overlooked when discussing exercises in general.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Oct 2020 21:02

Absolutely they are scripted and it is usually in favour of the Red Team (the Indian side). The Blue Team (the American side) designs it that way.

The Cope India air exercises are similar. Valuable lessons learnt on both sides.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Oct 2020 21:48

Rakesh wrote:And from keel laying to commissioning, the Type 636.3 is now averaging two years. It started out at four years. Compare that to my post above on the Scorpene from keel laying to commissioning. Cancel the Ka-226 order and give Putin order for the Type 636.3 boat. Even quicker can be a couple being built right now for the Russian Navy, transferred to the Indian Navy. And let Rubin build the remaining as well.

There are three to choose from right now....the Magadan, the Ufa and the Mozhaysk. All three are due for commissioning in 2022.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 22 Oct 2020 21:50

Vietnam has 6 of the new 636 Kilos - WOW!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Oct 2020 21:57

V_Raman wrote:Vietnam has 6 of the new 636 Kilos - WOW!

And all for a mere $2 billion.

idan · Post by **idan** » 22 Oct 2020 22:00

Unless there is design and structural changes the improved Kilo class will have a well-known acoustic profile. Precisely the reason why Soryu class evolved to larger Taigei class with structural changes to reduce hydrodynamic noise further. Added to the fact that the new Taigei class will be entirely Li-ion (Li-S) battery based and a revolutionary snorkel design for diesel generators on board. All Indian Navy submarine purchases now should have a shelf-life of 30 -35 years.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Oct 2020 22:12

I say again, Japan has made the decision to NOT participate in the P75I contest. You have to learn to play with the cards you have been dealt. No Soryu Class or Taigei Class is coming, unless Japan changes her mind. You cannot force a country to join a contest. I am puzzled as to why you keep bringing this up. Virginia Class SSN is even more advanced than Soryu Class, perhaps the IN should look at that instead? Oh wait, like the Japanese, the US Govt will not offer the Virginia Class for sale.

The Kilo Class and HDW 209 Class have both crossed the 30 year mark with the IN. The Scorpene Class will also exceed 30 years.

The Type 636.3 will exceed 30 years.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Oct 2020 22:38

Oh look what a cursory google search found....

https://www.au.emb-japan.go.jp/files/000147414.pdf

This letter is from the website of the Japanese Embassy in Australia (https://www.au.emb-japan.go.jp/itprtop_ja/index.html). This is an *OFFICIAL* letter from the then-Japanese Ambassador to Australia, His Excellency Sumio Kusaka. The letter is basically to convince the Aussies to acquire the Soryu Class boat. Is there such a letter from the Japanese Ambassador to India? Can we move on now?

His Excellency Sumio Kusaka

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 22 Oct 2020 22:42

If I remember correctly, conventional subs are on the negative list for 2022. My question for gurus here is, given our experience with Arihant and Arighat, what technologies do we still need to develop to bring our sub-building to maturity, and what systems will we need to continue importing past 2022 for our indigenous subs?

Only OSINT knowledge please.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Oct 2020 23:06

k prasad wrote:If I remember correctly, conventional subs are on the negative list for 2022.

They count license built systems like Scorpene as MII and hence kosher. P75I will be similar. Of course P75I is not going to reach contract stage in 2022 or even the next few years.

idan · Post by **idan** » 22 Oct 2020 23:27

Just like the Kilo class, the Swedish Kockums Gotland class also has a reputation .... but exercises are scripted anyway

srin · Post by **srin** » 23 Oct 2020 00:16

idan wrote:Unless there is design and structural changes the improved Kilo class will have a well-known acoustic profile. Precisely the reason why Soryu class evolved to larger Taigei class with structural changes to reduce hydrodynamic noise further. Added to the fact that the new Taigei class will be entirely Li-ion (Li-S) battery based and a revolutionary snorkel design for diesel generators on board. All Indian Navy submarine purchases now should have a shelf-life of 30 -35 years.

Precisely. There is no such thing as a black hole. It is relative. And depends upon the speed, etc.
Look at this video and jump to 8:40 ("we recorded her at 117db at 1 yard")

BTW, this is a really awesome channel. Became aware of how ASW works at a layman level.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Oct 2020 01:11

srin wrote:
idan wrote:Unless there is design and structural changes the improved Kilo class will have a well-known acoustic profile. Precisely the reason why Soryu class evolved to larger Taigei class with structural changes to reduce hydrodynamic noise further. Added to the fact that the new Taigei class will be entirely Li-ion (Li-S) battery based and a revolutionary snorkel design for diesel generators on board. All Indian Navy submarine purchases now should have a shelf-life of 30 -35 years.
Precisely. There is no such thing as a black hole. It is relative. And depends upon the speed, etc.
Look at this video and jump to 8:40 ("we recorded her at 117db at 1 yard")

The Scorpene and the HDW 214 are two of the contenders in the Project 75I contest. They have well known acoustic profiles. The Type 877EKM and the HDW 209, both currently in service with the Indian Navy, have well known acoustic profiles. Even the Soryu Class has an acoustic profile that is well known to the US Navy. No matter which boat you buy, the acoustic profile will be known. And if it is not, you can rest assured it will be. It is the proverbial cat-and-mouse game.

Measuring sound alone (in a vacuum) does not translate into it being a noisy submarine. There are other factors to consider. Was the boat operating with her diesel engines or her batteries? 117 db translates into how many knots? And what was the reason for the boat to travel at that speed? Was the boat in a naval exercise or transitioning to a destination? Does the boat operate at that speed during combat operations, when she is rigged for quiet? No boat commander will keep a boat at that sound level, if she is trying to remain silent.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Oct 2020 05:05

Video of the same event below ---> https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 06624?s=20

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 27110?s=20 ---> The Naval Chief in the Ops Centre of the guided missile destroyer INS Chennai today. Haven't seen a picture of the ops centre released before.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Oct 2020 05:16

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 96929?s=20 ---> Varunastra torpedo's 250KW AgO-Zn battery is being upgraded to 300KW (Pic 1). A fibre optic guidance based Ring Laser gyro Inertial Navigation System has been developed (Pic 2). These are meant for Takshak heavyweight torpedo, the submarine launched version of the Varunastra (Pic 3).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Oct 2020 05:19

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 69376?s=20 ---> The Nilgiri Class use modular construction. The hull blocks are separately built & ferried to MDL. The blocks shown in green are outsourced to Shoft, Chowgule, Titagargh, etc. The blocks in blue contain sensitive equipment & are made in-house at MDL.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 23 Oct 2020 07:03

Rakesh wrote: Not Vidur Sir, but the Scorpene program was moving painfully slow...but is now picking up. See below.
.

I appreciate inputs from Rakesh Sir as well , however since the scorpene data leaks I am not a big fan of current design not sure how confident a sub captain would be knowing that major data is out with the adversaries on what frequencies the sub collects intelligence etc.

I know how the HDW scandal put behind IN's sub ambition but please note that not all was lost the majority of workers were diverted to Arihant and so call it good leadership and farsightedness we were able to preserve niche experience we had gained. The damage was to MDL's infrastructure the volume it has build in terms of man and machinery bulk was a waste.

Having said that once scorpene was signed it was going to take time to build the capability of the yard, it took more time due to Frenchies playing hard ball on transfer of the critical equipment only after PMO intervened in 2018 that the program went into overdrive. Once the equipment was in , the yard rolling out the subs like hot cakes. Looks like the leak was deliberate from competitors but loss was of IN's. Unless they give us tech that helps compensates for the loss (if such a thing exists) and we can then back port it to five subs we have we should not invest on additional scorpenes. Instead MDL should be encouraged to use the ToT received to start remanufacture of 209 or a modified 209 that will be its own design and will help us. Now they have the capabilities.

There was some analysis done by IN (need to search the link) TKMS Type 218, the design of which is optimised for the shallow Baltic Sea – has similarities with the Arabian Sea, where the waters 40 kilometres off Karachi are just 40 metres deep. The Type 218 is also reputedly the most silent design is far better option but again idea should be two private yards with L&T getting Kilo's and MDL modified HDW and HSL with nuke subs we have three capable yards with order book full for next 10 years.

Again this is one man's opinion FWIW.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 23 Oct 2020 10:46

Commissioning as Combat Ready platform makes sense. Takes away multiple ribbon cutting and allows team to focus on final delivery, not on 'surface' (pun intended) celebrations.

Indian Navy commissions fourth and final Kamorta-class corvette
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... s-corvette

Rahul Bedi, 22 OCTOBER 2020

chola · Post by **chola** » 23 Oct 2020 14:43

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 69376?s=20 ---> The Nilgiri Class use modular construction. The hull blocks are separately built & ferried to MDL. The blocks shown in green are outsourced to Shoft, Chowgule, Titagargh, etc. The blocks in blue contain sensitive equipment & are made in-house at MDL.

Beautiful! Modular building across two shipyards that is the P-17A.

Truthfully, I am glad the fourth and final Kamorta (though a fine-looking vessel) is over and done with. A corvette and we build only four?!

The modular Nilgiri is harbinger of the future.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Oct 2020 17:24

KK,I've been saying for many years that we should in a G-2-G deal build more U-boats,latest enlarged design with AIP. This because of the inordinate delays and huge cost overrun with the Scorpenes,us the damaging data leaks.The MESMA AIP system
is less efficient than German fuel-cell AIP systems too. The only problem with European subs is that they cannot carry Klub/ Kalibir or BMos Ru missiles. Why a second line of an Ru conv.AIP boat is also reqd.

The 3+3 Kilo offer is to plug the yawning gap until 2030+. We are completely familiar with the Kilos,and if Kalibir is added to these boats a huge leap in capability.Nirbhay will take some more years for a sub- launched version to be perfected,while BMos-S is ready
but for a sub to carry it in a VLS plug. The Amur with a BMos plug has been exhibited ad nauseum for over a decade now. The Ru bureau has to get their AIP act perfected,or either the German system or the DRDO system could be fitted.

Given the huge Sino-Pak combined sub threat of over 100 subs, what the IN requires is an inventory of at least 24 to 30 conv. boats, 4 SSGNs ( Akulas),6 SSNs- smaller than the Akulas and the reqd. number of SSBNs which may be 6+.40 subs is the bare minimum we need for the future. The PLAN is ramping ip capability to build 4 N-boats alone simultaneously.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Oct 2020 21:47

krishna_krishna wrote:I appreciate inputs from Rakesh Sir as well ...

Will reply to your post soon. Just a request. Please do not call me Sir

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Oct 2020 21:47

I have posted this video before. Watch the whole thing. Not very long. Around 8 minutes onlee.

kit · Post by **kit** » 23 Oct 2020 21:59

Rakesh wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote:Vidur Sir, two questions IN is really short on submarines with Scorpene leak fiasco and other submarines hard to come by why urgent buy of kilo submarine is not envisioned, what is your thought on getting the sub number up ?
Not Vidur Sir, but the Scorpene program was moving painfully slow...but is now picking up. See below....

The contract with DCN/NG had significant penalties for any delay from their side as well !!

John · Post by **John** » 24 Oct 2020 04:35

chola wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 69376?s=20 ---> The Nilgiri Class use modular construction. The hull blocks are separately built & ferried to MDL. The blocks shown in green are outsourced to Shoft, Chowgule, Titagargh, etc. The blocks in blue contain sensitive equipment & are made in-house at MDL.
Beautiful! Modular building across two shipyards that is the P-17A.

Truthfully, I am glad the fourth and final Kamorta (though a fine-looking vessel) is over and done with. A corvette and we build only four?!

The modular Nilgiri is harbinger of the future.

P-28 ultimately proved to be too expensive with limited armament it can carry. So it is unlikely we will ever purchase variants of this design for other roles such as AShW.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 24 Oct 2020 06:07

Rakesh wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote:I appreciate inputs from Rakesh Sir as well ...
Will reply to your post soon. Just a request. Please do not call me Sir

Better to call him Admiral, and occasionally ask him about mithai, especially if he mentions anything resembling a submarine (even it if is wonlee from Subway).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Oct 2020 06:08

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 24 Oct 2020 08:52

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote: Will reply to your post soon. Just a request. Please do not call me Sir
Better to call him Admiral, and occasionally ask him about mithai, especially if he mentions anything resembling a submarine (even it if is wonlee from Subway).

Rakesh wrote:

I have been here longtime and definitely mithai, admiral and tonnage of akula go hand-in-hand.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 24 Oct 2020 09:30

Philip wrote:. The only problem with European subs is that they cannot carry Klub/ Kalibir or BMos Ru missiles. Why a second line of an Ru conv.AIP boat is also reqd.

Philip I disagree, From what is available on Open source navy has made clear that P-75I will have absolutely require two things different from P-75 , i.e VLS Plug to launch missiles and an AIP Propulsion. I don't see any conventional Ru subs right now that actually feature those two on a submarine, their Amur program was touted to present these features but it is plugged with issues that is why RuN is going with improved kilo class and for a good reason.

If Russia objects to having their designed missiles on non Russian platforms like they insisted with Vikramaditya of not having any non Russian planes on the carrier (I personally see no wrong in this , from a business perspective makes sense if you are offering something which no one else does you definitely want to protect your interests).

Having said that Nirbhay is done deal with indian engine, that makes IN dependence on Ru even less, and same with Brahmos with indian components that is going on for quite a sometime and its almost 90% sourced locally. I agree we will not have anything of Kalibir class in terms of range or capabilities but still not like IN is dead in water. Please also note that L&T has designed and manufactured VLS Plug as well for Arihant class so we have everything available.

My guess is Ru wants a sale and they will offer Kalibir Tot in some shape like Brahmos and they will get assured contract but we will have to see what will happen with P-75I.

John · Post by **John** » 24 Oct 2020 09:56

krishna_krishna wrote:
Philip wrote:. The only problem with European subs is that they cannot carry Klub/ Kalibir or BMos Ru missiles. Why a second line of an Ru conv.AIP boat is also reqd.
Philip I disagree, From what is available on Open source navy has made clear that P-75I will have absolutely require two things different from P-75 , i.e VLS Plug to launch missiles and an AIP Propulsion. I don't see any conventional Ru subs right now that actually feature those two on a submarine, their Amur program was touted to present these features but it is plugged with issues that is why RuN is going with improved kilo class and for a good reason.

Amur SSK is more or less dead, Russians themselves are quietly killing its domestic variant Lada. As for Amur with VLS plug it was marketing BS there was no actual studies done to see if it is even feasible, they decided to put in plug in one of models and hope that India or China will pay for it which would then allow them to actually to progress further. VLS plug on anything smaller than 4000 ton submarine is unlikely, either way it doesn’t matter because..

Sub launched Brahmos from VLS has been canned in favor of tube launched Brahmos-m, so this will allow us to carry the missile in any platform with standard torpedo tubes. P-75i will carry and fire Brahmos-m and LACM from its 21 inch torpedo tubes.

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 24 Oct 2020 11:44

^^The picture is of 3 axis fiber optic gyro .ring laser gyro and fiber optic gyros are different in operating principle and accuracy.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Oct 2020 12:03

Lada is in series production as well as Kilos.
They appear to be using them for diff. theatres.Anyway, the P-75I prog. will take at least 7 years to arrive,why the offer of Kilos 3+3
is a good interim solution.At least 1 or 2 will be again transferred to Myanmar in the future,from 2005 some may start being retd.,used for experimental/ trg. purposes, which will leave us with around 12. 8 more German U-boats in a G-2-G deal will save time plus keel MDL busy. Perhaps 2 more Scorpenes to add to the number built before the U-boat construction begins,first 2 built by the OEM. These extra stingers can feature the same AIP system,German or DRDO whichever is better,retrofitted with newer missiles.

A new Ru- Indo sub to replace Kilos.,based upon the Amur/ Kalina orthe new Malachite AIP sub.AIP system,either that on the other boats for commonality or the DRDO one.BMos-H for the future,as it arrives and is appearing on a variety of RuN platforms.
This way we could have 24 to 30 AIP boats, plus a min. of 12- 16 nuclear boats. 40 is the bare min. when the PLAN alone will have around 80 to 100.