Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Ashokk » 31 Dec 2020 00:22

Indian Navy conducts successful maiden trial of indigenous 'SAHAYAK-NG' Air Droppable Container

Image

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) along with the Indian Navy conducted the successful maiden test trial of ‘SAHAYAK-NG’ India’s first indigenously designed and developed Air Dropped Container from IL 38SD aircraft (Indian Navy) off the coast of Goa.

The trial was conducted by the Indian Navy to enhance its operational logistics capabilities and provide critical engineering stores to ships that are deployed more than 2000 km from the coast. It reduces the requirement of ships to come close to the coast to collect spares and stores.

Two DRDO laboratories i.e. NSTL, Visakhapatnam, and ADRDE, Agra were involved in the development of the SAHAYAK-NG container along with the industry partner M/s Avantel for GPS integration. SAHAYAK-NG is an advanced version of SAHAYAK Mk I. The newly developed GPS aided air dropped container is having the capability to carry a payload that weighs up to 50 kg and can be dropped from heavy aircraft.

Secretary Department of Defence R&D and Chairman DRDO Dr. G Satheesh Reddy congratulated DRDO scientists, the Indian Navy, and the associated industry partners involved in the successful maiden trial.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 31 Dec 2020 20:14

Wishing all on BRF and the forces the very best for 2021!

Just read a projection of the PLAN's growth plans for the new decade. 2025 estimates. Staggering plans.50 new DDG/FFGs of the latest types, completion of the 70 new corvettes,8 LHDs, at least 2 more carriers- plans for 6. 2 each for the Pacific, Indo- China Sea ( so-called South China Sea) and IOR. There is in addition a new sub-building complex for only N-subs with 4 rails so that 4 N-subs can be built simultaneously. This is apart from its conventional sub force ,the tootal sum of both which already is fast approaching 70 to 80 new subs.The PLAN may possess 100 subs by 2025.

These projections have stunned western analysts who thought that the peak of PLAN warship/ sub- building capability had peaked. It now appears to be accelerating even further. The PRC makes it no sdcret to possessing the largest navy in the world to dominate the oceans and their respective littorals.This obviously poses a v.v.serious threat to the IN for the coming decade and beyond.The PLAN with its bases at Djibouti- being expanded,Gwadar/Jiwani and other logistic facilities in SL,etc. in the IOR littoral, will be eventually able to station carriets,subs ,amphibs and sundry surface combatants on a permanent basis. Obviously the IN cannot match unit for unit,or even 25% of the Chin maritime build-up with the meagre defence budget inhand and the IN's smallest slice of the cake apportioned to it.

Therefore, the first pre-requisite is for the CDS and 3 chiefs to tell the GOI that unless the defence budget is at least 3% of the GDP, they will not be able to guarantee the security of the nation given the Sino- Pak JV and the massive Chin military build- up esp. in the maritime sphere. The second task is for the IN to present a realistic plan for a balanced fleet, with innovative outside-box
thinking to leverage assets of the IN and CG,plus making the most of our "unsinkable carriers", INS India and its island territories.

The first major challenge from the PLAN will be its UW warfare, where it send in large nos. of subs, both AIP and nuclear,to track our 2 CBGs and flotillas as well as targeting our major bases and ports with stand-off missiles when the shooting starts. We too must possess the capability of forward positioning of some of our sub assets,to take the fight to the PLAN in its own backyard."Attack is the best form of defence",old adage. This neccessitates the most urgent and immediate augmrntation of our sub fleet with orders plus more leasing of available subs,both nuclear and conventional. Acquisition of supersonic maritime strike bombers is another pre-requisite.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 31 Dec 2020 21:42

Barath wrote:... nothing concrete for MCM right now.


That sums it up quite right :rotfl:

Thank you for the elaborate post.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 01 Jan 2021 22:37

GRSE delivers eighth landing craft utility ship to Navy.

Defence PSU GRSE has delivered to the Indian Navy the last of the eight landing craft utility (LCU) ships manufactured by it, providing a major boost to the country's defence preparedness, a top company official said.

The amphibious ships, to be based in the strategic location of Andaman and Nicobar Islands -- which is close to various routes leading to the South China Sea -- "are specifically designed to undertake landing operations in most difficult beaching areas", GRSE chairman and managing director Rear Admiral (retd) V K Saxena said.

Despite challenges owing to the COVID-19 pandemic and subsequent lockdown, the Kolkata-based Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) has successfully delivered the last of eight LCUs manufactured for the Indian Navy, he said.

The LCU ships, equipped with state-of-the-art technology, were developed in-house with 90 per cent of its parts indigenously manufactured.

"These ships are very unique in their design and class in the world. A very specific kind of requirement was given by the Indian Navy -- the speed of 15 knots, a displacement of 900- odd tonnes and a low draught for beaching in the shallowest of waters," Saxena told PTI.

Apart from troops, each ship can accommodate main battle tanks, personnel carriers and other Army vehicles, which can be launched on the beaches, he said on Thursday.

The ships are designed to accommodate 216 personnel and have two indigenous CRN 91 guns to provide artillery fire support during landing operations, he added.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 01 Jan 2021 22:43

Centre Approves Indian Navy Proposal To Buy 10 Shipborne Drones.

After leasing two predator drones from the US, the Indian Navy is now going to urgently acquire 10 shipborne drones for enhancing its surveillance capabilities in the Indian Ocean Region, for which it has received the government approval recently.

"A proposal moved in fast track mode by the Indian Navy before the Defence Ministry, under which it will buy 10 Naval Shipborne Unmanned Aerial Systems for around ₹ 1,300 crores has been cleared by the government," government sources told ANI.

The Navy will acquire these drones through an open bid under the Buy Global category and then soon deploy them on its large size warships for surveillance and reconnaissance activities.

As per the plans of the Navy, the drones would be deployed on big size warships of the force and would help them in the detection of activities of the Chinese as well as other adversaries in and around Indian territorial waters, they said.

The Indian Navy is working separately on a project to acquire Sea Guardian drones from the United States for expanding its surveillance in the country's areas of interest from Madagascar to Malacca Straits and beyond.

The Navy is also getting its existing drones upgraded as part of an upgrade programme, which was recently taken up for discussion in the Defence Ministry.

Indian Navy has inducted two American Predator drones on lease from the US to carry out surveillance in the Indian Ocean region. Capable of carrying out surveillance for more than 30 hours, the drones are operating out of Indian Navy's INS Rajali airbase.

The two Predator drones arrived in India around mid-November and entered into an operational role in the third week of November. The Indian Navy has inducted these drones under a lease agreement with the American vendor, sources added. As part of the deal, the vendor has deployed a team to guide the personnel operating the Predator drones.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Jan 2021 10:11

If this news is true, its a very welcome move! Something many here have been asking for:

India, Japan and US devise SOSUS system to counter Chinese submarine threat

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Barath » 05 Jan 2021 14:40

Prem Kumar wrote:If this news is true, its a very welcome move! Something many here have been asking for:

India, Japan and US devise SOSUS system to counter Chinese submarine threat


It is true but a little old news.

https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/ ... ubmarines/
https://resonantnews.com/2020/07/03/ind ... -partners/
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... s?from=mdr

The US and japan among others had decided several years ago to renew and upgrade the SOSUS / IUSS sensors in the sectors depicted above.
https://thediplomat.com/2016/11/us-navy ... r-network/

Circa 2016, Japan offered to pay for the Andaman link https://amti.csis.org/indias-undersea-w ... ian-ocean/ A Japanese ship wound up laying elements including the fiber optic link from Chennai to Port Blair. http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2018/09/ ... -port.html. Signing of COMCASA was a major enabler of this co-operation.

Operationalization of the sensors have not been discussed much; the basic idea is that the US regional headquarters analyzes sounds received from the entire network (using their existing library, staffing and algorithms) and can notify and share information with allies such as India and Japan for further action.

Imagine a Chinese submarine trying to break out into the Indian Ocean, the US picks it up on sensors in the fish-hook or Andaman string, analyzes and notifies India; who assigns a P8i to further localize the submarine as it enter the Indian ocean or a Chakra/SSN t further tail it (and to be ready to attack if necessary)

It would be extremely helpful IMHO to further lay and extend similar networks and SOSUS devices not just in ports, but in various other locations in the Indian Ocean (eg Lakshwdeep, around Sri Lanka, Maldives...) and create the expertise and capability to do the processing on it's own

There was an initial SOSUS trial near Goa several years ago. I also believe that some ports in India have sound surveillance systems
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... -region/2/

Not sure (suspect) if the ones in the port are tied into the Coastal Surveillance Network ; the coastal surveillance network is for maritime security for the coast guard and includes 46 stations in Phase 1, more in phase 2 and others abroad along with v2 ehicle tracking management system nodes 16 local command and control centers and information fusion centers. The CSN leverages radar and electro optical tracking data nd primarily concerned with policing , including terrorism, but they are connected to National Command Control and Intelligence center as Part of IMAC gurugram
http://forceindia.net/feature-report/sea-to-shore/

Having the different CSN, US SoSUS, Indian Sosus (hopefully) networks (focused on different things) be able to talk to each other nd provide operational intelligence to Indian navy would be great.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 06 Jan 2021 16:53

Sad news of the passing away of V.Adm.M.R.Schunker PVSM,AVSM,( retd.) ,former VCNS,DG-CG ,in Goa at the ripe old age of 96. He must be the last sea salt of the IN who first joined the RN as a midshipman in WW2, later the RIN and IN at Independence. RIP admiral.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 06 Jan 2021 19:27

RIP Vice Admiral (Rtd) Melville Raymond Schunker, PVSM, AVSM.

Fair Winds and Following Seas

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chetak » 06 Jan 2021 19:49

US agrees to equip Indian Navy warships with heavy guns urgently



At a time when India and China are engaged in a border dispute, the American Navy has agreed to urgently equip Indian Navy warships with its own naval guns to help India be better prepared for a conflict in the earliest possible time frame.

The two sides are moving ahead with a plan to take three American Navy inventory medium caliber guns and put them on the Indian warships of large size to use them in both anti-ship and anti-aircraft roles, top government sources told India Today.

The 127 mm medium caliber guns are produced by the American BAE systems and the countries are discussing a $600 million deal to buy 11 such weapons systems. India has issued a Letter of Request to the US government for acquiring 11.127 mm medium caliber guns which are to be equipped on the large-size warships of the Indian Navy including the Visakhapatnam-class destroyers.

As per the new plan, the LoR issued to the American administration and the first three guns to be provided to the Indian Navy would be from the American Navy inventory so that the Indian warships are fully equipped at the earliest.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 07 Jan 2021 21:45

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 95712?s=20 ---> US Navy would be providing three 127mm medium caliber guns from its own inventory to urgently equip warships of the Indian Navy as part of a Rs 3,800 crore deal.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 07 Jan 2021 21:47

Indian Navy goes for ‘prioritisation of acquisitions' to make up for the budget constraints
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 42339.html
28 Dec 2020

The Navy has curtailed the numbers of platforms to be inducted amid the economic challenges brought about by the COVID-19 pandemic. “Navy will now induct 8 Minesweepers and two Landing Platform Docks (LPD). There is the assurance of getting them more when the economy is stronger and there is a requirement," he said. The Navy had initially planned to get 24 Mine Sweepers, which was decreased to 12 and now 8 in numbers. Similarly, four LPDs were to be inducted.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 07 Jan 2021 22:44

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/status/1346784082730995712?s=20 ---> US Navy would be providing three 127mm medium caliber guns from its own inventory to urgently equip warships of the Indian Navy as part of a Rs 3,800 crore deal.

I would much rather go for smaller caliber SRGM and use the $$ and space saved be used for another Barak-8 module.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby titash » 07 Jan 2021 23:06

John wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/status/1346784082730995712?s=20 ---> US Navy would be providing three 127mm medium caliber guns from its own inventory to urgently equip warships of the Indian Navy as part of a Rs 3,800 crore deal.

I would much rather go for smaller caliber SRGM and use the $$ and space saved be used for another Barak-8 module.


Perhaps ship-to-shore bombardment is emerging as a priority based on recent evacuation experiences in Yemen, etc.

Likewise ship-to-shore bombardment is a literal expression of gunboat diplomacy. A small escalation in tensions and subsequent threat of bombardment will convince regional satraps in Sri Lanka, Maldives, Burma, etc. as to where their interests lie w.r.t. string of pearls bases. These countries have no air forces worth mentioning and P-15A/P-17A can come in close to express themselves.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 08 Jan 2021 15:34

MCMs are critical for defence of our numerous ports and bases. Laying mines at the entrance of even non-mil. ports will be catastrophic for our merchant fleet. Therefore,given the func crunch,we must leverage all existing platforms to multi-task.I've said for years that suitable CG assets should be trained in mine warfare and ASW for coastal duties so that we have extra numbers in a crisis. The CG which in times of war comes under IN control, is a very valuable asset which must work beyond its general patrol and constabulary duties.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby titash » 09 Jan 2021 09:08

Interesting titbit from aeromag.in
https://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/9848624845.pdf

Ministry of Defence (MoD) has signed a contract with Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) for procurement of 10 Lynx U2 Fire Control systems for frontline warships of Indian Navy at a cost of Rs 1,355 crore under Buy (Indian) category in New Delhi. The Lynx system has been designed and developed indigenously that would further the ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’ vision of Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The LYNX U2 GFCS is a Naval Gun Fire Control System designed to acquire, track and engage targets amidst sea clutter. It is capable of accurately tracking air/surface targets, generating required target data for predicting weapon aiming points and engaging target. The target engagement is carried out with the medium/short range gun mounts like Russian AK176, A190 and AK630 and the SRGM available onboard ships. The Gun Fire Control System has been designed with an open and scalable architecture permitting simple and flexible implementation in many different configurations. The system has been developed and delivered to Indian Navy and has been in service for over two decades, satisfactorily meeting the tactical requirements of Indian Naval ships of various classes like destroyers, frigates, missile boats, corvettes, etc. The system has been upgraded continuously and indigenisation has been the major focus along with technology upgrades. The indigenous content of the system has been continuously increased, generation to generation to eliminate the dependency on foreign OEMs.

The system will be installed on the NOPV, Talwar and Teg class of ships. The system including the Tracking Radar, Servo and Weapon Control Modules has been completely designed and developed by BEL. The indigenous system will ensure maximum up-time of the system and guarantees excellent Product support throughout its life time. The system proposed in the contract is of the fourth generation and is a completely indigenised system, developed in the true spirit of ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’. These will be delivered by BEL, Bengaluru over the next five years.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby titash » 09 Jan 2021 09:16

titash wrote:Interesting titbit from aeromag.in
https://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/9848624845.pdf
The system will be installed on the NOPV, Talwar and Teg class of ships. The system including the Tracking Radar, Servo and Weapon Control Modules has been completely designed and developed by BEL. The indigenous system will ensure maximum up-time of the system and guarantees excellent Product support throughout its life time. The system proposed in the contract is of the fourth generation and is a completely indigenised system, developed in the true spirit of ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’. These will be delivered by BEL, Bengaluru over the next five years.


Looks like the 4 Saryu boats are going to get a significant CIWS upgrade. They only had EO control for the SRGM/AK-630 till now. Perhaps a decent early warning air search radar will also be added.

The Talwars will lose Russian fire control radars to Indian ones. The upgrade path is on the same lines as the Kashin class...progressive replacement of all radar electronics and non-SAM systems

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 09 Jan 2021 17:14

Out of the Box

Query to the knowledgeable BRFites., how rational is it to expand the mandate of the ICS to include the whole of India's SEZ and to up gun and missile up suitable ships in the fleet and to include antisub ops in this region so that IN can free up its assets and move on to full-blown blue water ops ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby jamwal » 09 Jan 2021 17:26

Why are these 127mm guns so expensive?
What about alternatives?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 09 Jan 2021 17:43

Vips wrote:Centre Approves Indian Navy Proposal To Buy 10 Shipborne Drones.

After leasing two predator drones from the US, the Indian Navy is now going to urgently acquire 10 shipborne drones for enhancing its surveillance capabilities in the Indian Ocean Region, for which it has received the government approval recently.

The Navy will acquire these drones through an open bid under the Buy Global category and then soon deploy them on its large size warships for surveillance and reconnaissance activities.


Can these drones operate off the IN carriers ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 09 Jan 2021 19:07

kit wrote:...Can these drones operate off the IN carriers ?


No.

Interestingly though the 2 last Nilgiri (Leander) class frigates were designated as UAV control ships. IN Herons would fly off from shore, and then control would pass on to the frigate. This is an awesome capability and perhaps negates need to launch the UAVs from ships assuming the mission is reasonably close to Indian shoreline.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 09 Jan 2021 19:14

kit wrote:Out of the Box

Query to the knowledgeable BRFites., how rational is it to expand the mandate of the ICS to include the whole of India's SEZ and to up gun and missile up suitable ships in the fleet and to include antisub ops in this region so that IN can free up its assets and move on to full-blown blue water ops ?


Assume you meant ICG and EEZ. ICG's mandate is indeed the whole EEZ and even beyond as far as SAR is concerned. However ICG's charter does not envisage it to undertake naval tasks such as ASW. Accordingly there is nil equipment or capability in the ICG today to undertake such tasks. In any case ASW is a core Navy task.

In my view MCM is also best left to Navy.

Self and Philip and posted on this subject in previous pages. Also this thread in twitter FYI
https://twitter.com/Aditya_G_Social/sta ... 11744?s=20

IN does not need to be 'freed' up for blue water tasks, though there is argument to increase capacity for same especially since 2017 when we undertake the Mission Based Deployments.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 09 Jan 2021 19:51

titash wrote:....
Looks like the 4 Saryu boats are going to get a significant CIWS upgrade. They only had EO control for the SRGM/AK-630 till now. Perhaps a decent early warning air search radar will also be added.

The Talwars will lose Russian fire control radars to Indian ones. The upgrade path is on the same lines as the Kashin class...progressive replacement of all radar electronics and non-SAM systems


Off late a lot of the indigenisation news is coming from the "FIGHT" category;

1. ASW mission suite is nearly all Indian;

- Hull mounted sonar
- Control complex
- LWT weapon and launchers
- HWT weapon and Launchers
- ASW rockets and launchers
- Decoys (Mareech)
- Helicopter based dunking sonar.

2. Air Defence - spotty at this moment.

- Volume search radar (Revathi, license mfg radars)
- LR-SAM (nominally Indian made)
- Decoys (Kavach)
- AK-630 (nominally Indian made)
- FCS (Lynx U2)
- control complex

Missing is QRSAM

3. Surface warfare:

- 76mm guns (CKD assembled)
- 30mm guns (CRN-91)
- Sights (EON-51)
- Brahmos SSMs

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 09 Jan 2021 21:00

Reg MCM.

Goa Shipyard has stated that they have the largest facility in South Asia for making FRP mulls for MCM vessels. What stops them then to propose a fully Indian MCM design? Where is the need for a foreign OEM beyond some consultancy?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 11 Jan 2021 00:08

titash wrote:
John wrote:I would much rather go for smaller caliber SRGM and use the $$ and space saved be used for another Barak-8 module.


Perhaps ship-to-shore bombardment is emerging as a priority based on recent evacuation experiences in Yemen, etc.

Likewise ship-to-shore bombardment is a literal expression of gunboat diplomacy. A small escalation in tensions and subsequent threat of bombardment will convince regional satraps in Sri Lanka, Maldives, Burma, etc. as to where their interests lie w.r.t. string of pearls bases. These countries have no air forces worth mentioning and P-15A/P-17A can come in close to express themselves.


The price is still bit hard to swallow for one off shore bombardment , if you dealing with adversary with no Ashw capability you can use even oto SR for bombardment (Israeli navy has utilized it ). This was discussed earlier we can also see if we can utilize K9 for this by parking them in landing ships and finding a way to stabilize them.

jamwal wrote:Why are these 127mm guns so expensive?
What about alternatives?

I believe Oto 127 mm gun are cheaper but we black listed them.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2021 22:27

India gets Ukrainian engines for its stealth frigates, sends them to shipbuilder in Russia
https://theprint.in/defence/india-gets- ... ia/587923/
19 Jan 2021

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 20 Jan 2021 04:34

titash wrote:I believe Oto 127 mm gun are cheaper but we black listed them.

Oto 127mm gun are cheaper so we black listed them :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby D.Mahesh » 20 Jan 2021 07:27

Philip wrote:Wishing all on BRF and the forces the very best for 2021!

Just read a projection of the PLAN's .....


About 100 nice juicy targets!
Milord, IN since the time of Adm.Chatterji has been pursuing the vision of dominating the seas by fighting above in the air and below the waters. Given the pathetic state of PLA personnel, training, equipment, tactics, this grandiose plan will keep yards in Chiniland busy trundling out junk for target practice.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 20 Jan 2021 19:22

Kit,strange indeed are the ways of babudom! A report on the " alphabet soup" acronyms in the MOD is hilarious.You need to be an expert cryptographer to understand what is being described in the file. Unless you have a decent knowledge of defence jargon,it will be a foreign lingo, Greek or Latin to the politicos!

The ban for the AW scam instead of only penalising the helo division,banned the entire Leonardo group. Out went torpedoes for Scorpene and Arihant class subs, guns for warships, naval auxiliaries, etc. This resulted in us choosing Paki bum- chum Turkey for fleet support ships (!) , subs still without torpedoes, several years on, lack of subs too, and inordinate delays in other reqs. I can't understand why the DM and the CCS cut the babu red-tape deciding in acquisitions as a matter of extreme urgency in the national interest and go infor G-2-G deals wherever possible,funds notwithstanding. MCM vessels,ASW and LUH naval helos are desperately reqd. Until these basic reqs. are ordered from desi or firang sources, all talk of CV-3,etc. should be shelved and the focus should be on filling the gaps in fighting capability right now as top priority.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby sudeepj » 20 Jan 2021 23:23

jamwal wrote:Why are these 127mm guns so expensive?
What about alternatives?


About ~$50 million per gun. Not that expensive. I suppose these were chosen for future longer range 'smart rounds' that would increase the effectiveness of the gun in the air defense role.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 21 Jan 2021 00:04

sudeepj wrote:
jamwal wrote:Why are these 127mm guns so expensive?
What about alternatives?


About ~$50 million per gun. Not that expensive. I suppose these were chosen for future longer range 'smart rounds' that would increase the effectiveness of the gun in the air defense role.

Thats quite a bit of $$ given that Barak-8 cost about 110 million

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 21 Jan 2021 10:33

The MOD must choose cost-effectively given the budgetary constraints. Had it been a larger calibre gun,155mm, even better. Having two or three types of the same,Eytie,Rus and Yanqui makes for v.poor sense from the support,maintenance angle.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 21 Jan 2021 15:29

The 127 mm gun purchase shows the stupidity of our ToT and license manufacture regime, since independence upto date.
We have been manufacturing the 76mm OTO Melara SRGM under license since years and yet all the Russian supplied ships came with Russian A-190, 100 mm guns and we never attempted to develop anything on our own. Now, for the 127mm, we have again gone for imports at a very high price and in future, might even enter into another agreement on ToT or license manufacture under make in India program.

The key should be design and make in India.

Also, don't understand why BHEL has been making the 76 mm SRGMs for all these years, instead of some other OFB like Kanpur or GCF etc.? Maybe in the good'ole days, everyone was given their piece of the pie and the gravy was equally distributed amongst the various PSUs and OFBs. Kind of also explains the existence of the Vehicle Factory Jabalpur, when a BEML already exists.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby srin » 21 Jan 2021 22:51

Honestly, IMO, the 76mm gun was good enough.

I don't foresee 2nd World War style shelling of land by the destroyers, to aid amphibious landings. To me, the aerial threat is much more critical and a large calibre, high rate of fire cannon that can engage aerial threats beyond the CIWS is critical. The 76mm Oto is ideal.

Not only are we spending a crazy amount for 127mm, it also has much slower firing rate.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby sohamn » 21 Jan 2021 23:58

srin wrote:Honestly, IMO, the 76mm gun was good enough.

I don't foresee 2nd World War-style shelling of land by the destroyers, to aid amphibious landings. To me, the aerial threat is much more critical and a large caliber, high rate of fire cannon that can engage aerial threats beyond the CIWS is critical. The 76mm Oto is ideal.

Not only are we spending a crazy amount for 127mm, it also has much slower firing rate.


On the contrary, I think a decent deck gun is extremely important if we ever have to do a sea-based invasion. Look at desert storm / Vietnam etc .... any modern war where US had to do a sea-based invasion and capture a beachhead - they used deck guns extensively. With modern ammo, deck-based guns can hit beyond 50 km which can be very handy for softning shoreline bunkers and targets. They are, however, certainly not important for ship vs ship battle.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 22 Jan 2021 03:45

The advent of piracy and terrorism at sea has brought back naval guns into focus, right from small arms calibres. With lasers and railguns naval artillery may actually eclipse missiles. In the immediate term sensors such Lynx U2 and EOFCS have improved the accuracy and usability of guns, and guided ammo has made them lethal for air and surface targets.

76mm is very versatile calibre Oto Melara is pretty much gold standard, so I think the Navy could have stuck to it instead of the costly imports.

IMHO the way forward is to increase the number of guns per ship. Some italian navy destroyers come with 3 x 76mm cannons. Surprisingly USN's latest frigate has opted for 57mm.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 22 Jan 2021 03:54

The US Navy is standardizing on 57mm + the ALAMO round for its small surface combatants (LCS's and Frigates) fleet. A future guided 57 mm round for cruise missile defense is also in the works. On the large surface combatants, the standardization is around the Mk 45 gun with a hypervelocity projectile being the guided projectile of choice (it's already been fired in exercises and guided versions are being developed). Laser turrets and modules are going to be common to both large and small surface combatants with power-scaling being the differentiator (some of the smaller classes may actually get more power than some of the larger classes).

sohamn wrote:With modern ammo, deck-based guns can hit beyond 50 km which can be very handy for softning shoreline bunkers and targets. They are, however, certainly not important for ship vs ship battle.


Depends upon the target and who your opponent is (and how capable and advanced) 50 km might not afford you that great of a stand off distance given some of the proliferation that has happened in drone technology, loitering munitions and other things that can be cued to a target. Ideally, you want to stand off till well outside the range of counterfire radars at the very least (assuming there is no other way for your enemy to find and fix you using airborne means). A Mk45 should give a few choices of much greater than 50km shore based fires if one wants that but then it gets fairly expensive to do this mission with some of these choices when one factors in 1) The cost of guided and unguided long range projectiles, and 2) The risk associated in putting a combatant that is potentially worth hundreds of millions $$ (if not a billion plus) inside 100 km of the targets you are striking.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 22 Jan 2021 04:39

Hiting land based targets with a ship is extremely dangerous as it allows coastal batteries to attack the ship and much harder to detect Ashm launched from land & you have shorter reaction time as well.

With advent of suicide drones that threat has only increased and heck even houthis and Hizb. have Ashm and drones (used both against ships) so I don’t know against which opponent we can use ships safely do land bombardment.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 22 Jan 2021 04:46

It is not practical for majority of the scenarios unless it is part of a larger force and you can stand off for at least 150-200 km. And even then you are assuming risk and require additional support.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 22 Jan 2021 17:27

A study by Cmde.Thomas of the MP IDSA think tank has advocated the IN going in for a fleet of gen. purpose nuclear attack subs which in total life-cycle cost are fare more potent than conventional subs. It would take a factor between " 2.2 -6.0" conv. subs to equal just one SSN. He says that no nation gives N-sub tech ,esp. the reactor tech,also quoting the lease not sald of the Chakra Akula-2 SSGN to the IN.

This is not quite accurate as the lease was a modus operandi to provide India with N-subs by-passing the NSG,etc. from the days of Chakra-1. The late Adm.R.L.Pereira said that he was offered an N-sub on a visit to Russia,shown the same, but felt that the IN should first " walk before it could run" and instead acquired and set up the U-209 manufacture at MDL with full TOT.Sadly the alleged scandal over the HDW subs by a VP Singh vendetta against Rajiv G, never proven ,later squashed, saw the production of just 2 U-boats subs in India and the junking of the entire line,manufacturing machinery,etc. This allowed Pak to leapfrog India with its AIP Agosta-90 manufacture. "The only true AIP system said a former VCNS is a nuclear powered sub" , which has a 90 to 100 day operational patrol endurance, limited only by human endurance an on-board supplies for the crew..The max. endurance of the best AIP subs is not more than 60 days,still requiring snorkelling with a 2+ week of UW endurance.Conv. subs also have a far smaller no. of weapons carried,about half that of an SSN.

The need however is still there for conv. AIP subs for the shallower waters in the littorals. They are also more difficult to detect. Cases in point arethat of an IN Kilo besting a USN LA class SSN and the very recent detection this month of an Ohio class SSBN converted into an SSGN by the Iranian navy in waters near the Persian Gulf.

We however with considerable help from Ru have started our own manufacture of the Arihant class of SSBNs and are quite rightly proceeding with our own SSN design,plus acquiring a second modified Akula SSGN from Ru which will be even more potent than the Chakra-2. The SSBN/SSGN/SSN acquisitions along with AIP boats should be given the highest priority of IN acquisitions ,precedence above CV-3 and new carrier fighters, which could be shelved until the sub crisis of both numbers and obsolescence is rectified. The PLAN will have between 80 to 100 newer subs in its inventory during this decade, including the infra to build 4 N-subs simultaneously. We need to have facilities able to build at least 2 N-subs simultaneously ( one SSBN plus one SSGN/SSN) and 4 conv. AIP boats in 2 yards,one a DPSU and one in the pvt. sector.


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