Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

jpremnath · Post by **jpremnath** » 21 Jul 2018 21:39

People who talk about pakis outnumbering Indian Navy is either ignorant or flame baiting here... If they want to float some 70 capital ships , they will be bankrupt and will be eating grass in a month when that happens...Even the massive fleet on the conveyor belt for the PLAAN is meant for the Pacific front...and even at that do people think the quality of staff training can be maintained to match the launches? Even then, at any point of time they won't be able to spare more than 20 capital ships in the Indian ocean...And this is our backyard we are talking here...

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Jul 2018 04:18

Philip wrote:Good.At the current apeed of desi construction by DPSU yards, we will steadily lose the advantage we currently have.I am not advocating buying from Russia- other than what the Navy wants, the 4 almost completed FFGs.Don't put words into my mouth.I said we need a new class of corvettes and the GOI should place orders in our pvt. yards to encourage pvt. shipbuilding.But it is the DPSUs who are sabotaging this as can be seen by the about face of the P-75I subs and now the sudden delay in L& T being awarded the amphib order.

Philip we were not born yesterday to not see through your great insights. Every argument of yours is structured the following way
1. we have a problem
2. we have a solution that doesnt fix hte problem entirely
3. cheen/paki will eat us for breakfast
4. please look around and yes buy russian because no other guy is willing to sell us

Am issuing a 1 week ban for you to reflect upon these thoughts of yours

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 22 Jul 2018 05:34

<off-topic post deleted>

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jul 2018 05:40

Cain Marko wrote:My last on this but here is mighty mo in Hollywood action style....

Cain-ji....did you see below?

nachiket wrote:Guys, this is the Indian Navy Thread.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2018 13:10

people cower and run from 155mm ... 6 inch guns...these were merely 2ndary arrays on BB
9-12 x 15" cannons will destroy anything. each shell if made soft skinned could deliver 500kg of HE .... thats like a squadron strike of fighters in a few salvos

and it can do it all day

and *this* is our cadet training ship ?

has the intimidation factor of this

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2018 13:20

apart from the usual plans for SSN and SSBN, I wonder if we should invest in SSGNs also using the oscar template of inclined tubes on the sides ... a kind of devastating submerged barge meant to kill carrier groups and also impress the natives in various moffusil ports on the IOR rim, plus make the aussies grow red eared with jealousy

what is the advantage of disadvantage of the oscar design vs the traditional SLBM design? perhaps oscar can carry upto Granit sized weapons in 50% less tonnage.

could also release a high number of mines into shipping lanes using the side tubes.

chola · Post by **chola** » 22 Jul 2018 17:02

Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:My last on this but here is mighty mo in Hollywood action style....
Cain-ji....did you see below?
nachiket wrote:Guys, this is the Indian Navy Thread.

We need a good Bollywood flick on our Navy beating up aliens or anyone else, Admiral!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jul 2018 22:11

Agreed, but chola saar this is not the thread for this. Nachiket has explained that above. Can we drop this now?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 23 Jul 2018 11:26

Fourth P-15B construction begins.

http://www.psuconnect.in/news/productio ... -mdl/16430

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 23 Jul 2018 14:27

Singha wrote:

If we remove the conning tower, we have a small aircraft carrier

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 24 Jul 2018 18:12

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... e-ops.html
Advanced Light Helicopter gives teeth to Navy's airborne ops | Videos...

Kochi: The Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) 'Dhruv' inducted into the Indian Navy in 2003 has steadily become one of the go-to platforms undertaking multi-role missions. Despite the initial hiccups the Indian Navy had with this naval variant, the ALH's enhanced capabilities have given teeth to Indian Navy's operations from 'INS Garuda', the Naval Air Station under the Southern Naval Command (SNC), here.

The Squadron commissioned as INAS 322 (Guardians) in 2013, operating the ALHs, is presently commanded by Cdr Hari Govind R. In the last five years the squadron has enhanced ALH roles including NVG (Night Vision Goggles) operations, special operations for commando tasks (MARCOS), SAR (search and rescue) by day and night, embarked missions on helicopter capable platforms, casualty evacuation, anti-piracy operations (armed) and logistics\communication duties among others.

<snip>

"From a flying machine with many issues, she has now matured by miles. The enormous potential of the platform has been harnessed after the fitment of new equipment was carried out. From the initial role of helicopter training of our pilots, the ALH has definitely progressed in the last five years," says an Indian Navy official.

New deliveries from 2019

The naval variants of ALHs are now stationed only at Kochi and Goa and the Indian Navy hopes the scheduled delivery of 16 more platforms from HAL would commence in 2020.

"The new deliveries would render a much-needed boost to the naval air arm. They would be redistributed across the various air bases. These new acquisitions would not only provide a robust SAR organisation for the nation but also provide more teeth to the coastal security," says the official.

<snip>

The Navy cleared the Guardians for undertaking night SAR missions after formulating a series of procedures and leaving no stone unturned. "After gaining the requisite skills and formulating procedures towards gaining this expertise, we began the process towards modernising the SAR equipment. After extensive evaluation of the formulated procedures, we were cleared for SAR by night on ALH. Must confess that no sooner had the approvals landed, the squadron was baptised by fire literally," says an official.

<snip>

The Guardians are univocal in their view that the wait for a helicopter capable of handling the punishing and difficult operating environment at sea is finally over with the coming of age of the ALH. "Like the saying goes, a ship is safe in harbour, but that is not what ships are for. The need of the hour is a helicopter capable of SAR in the harshest of conditions and ALH fits in perfectly now. Achieving a mission in such weather requires superior capability, both of the crew as well as of the aircraft," the official adds.

Most of the crew members of the Guardians share an emotional bonding with the machine and they played a silent and significant role in making the machine mighty. Their inputs were critical for HAL’s designers and engineers, who turned around the machine as demanded by the user. And, as always, now the numbers matter.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 24 Jul 2018 19:27

In the last five years the squadron has enhanced ALH roles including NVG (Night Vision Goggles) operations, special operations for commando tasks (MARCOS), SAR (search and rescue) by day and night, embarked missions on helicopter capable platforms, casualty evacuation, anti-piracy operations (armed) and logistics\communication duties among others

This is heartening story indeed!! I assume this means that the folding rotor issue which had caused some friction has been resolved fully or at least to the satisfaction of the IN.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 24 Jul 2018 19:32

It clearly says it is being deployed out of on shore bases not from ships(except for the helicopter enabled platforms part)

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 24 Jul 2018 19:35

suryag wrote:It clearly says it is being deployed out of on shore bases not from ships(except for the helicopter enabled platforms part)

Suryagji,

Embarked missions usually mean that the heli is organic to the ship for the duration of its sortie, hence my question.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 24 Jul 2018 20:19

Ohh okie sir one more thing I learned today

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 24 Jul 2018 22:45

Singha wrote:apart from the usual plans for SSN and SSBN, I wonder if we should invest in SSGNs also using the oscar template of inclined tubes on the sides ... a kind of devastating submerged barge meant to kill carrier groups and also impress the natives in various moffusil ports on the IOR rim, plus make the aussies grow red eared with jealousy

what is the advantage of disadvantage of the oscar design vs the traditional SLBM design? perhaps oscar can carry upto Granit sized weapons in 50% less tonnage.

could also release a high number of mines into shipping lanes using the side tubes.

Apart from the obvious priority issues and resource constraints, what are the specific threat or opportunities are you imagining. The PLAN threat should be taken care of through our planned subs (nuclear/conventional), ASW frigates and aerial ASW assets. If the PLAN ever manages overwhelming force that they can bring into the IOR then going nuclear with an asset such as an SSGN would be worth it. Very little value as a force display platform for rim states. The Oscar was designed for a very specific need to thwart US Carrier fleets through a nuclear arsenal. The Ohio is a repurposed platform post START. The ROI for a conventional-only sub delivery platform to project over water force, in an Indian context and priorities is difficult to see.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jul 2018 00:49

yeah you are right and all subs these days come with UVLS that can take anything from a IRBM to a ASM, the conventional shaped Yasen has some 32 Oniks and might accomodate a lesser number of the granits replacement, whatever that is.

oscar is not agile and multipurpose enough

the UK subs like astute have a taller cross section like a full length hump over the sub....this might permit deeper UVLS than a circular cross section like LA class.

very noticeable here

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 25 Jul 2018 05:33

Karthik S wrote:Fourth P-15B construction begins.

http://www.psuconnect.in/news/productio ... -mdl/16430

Good nus. For all its failings MDL keeps churning out Destroyers, Submarines. We should applaud where deserved. As it is we pull up PSUs all over the place.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jul 2018 06:09

GD, one request.
Please stick to posting IN related stuff in this thread...

Thanks.
ramana

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 25 Jul 2018 22:12

Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:My last on this but here is mighty mo in Hollywood action style....
Cain-ji....did you see below?
nachiket wrote:Guys, this is the Indian Navy Thread.

It's all singha garu fault

He just had to get innocent forumers into trouble by using psyops of fantasy ships. Ban him I say

kit · Post by **kit** » 26 Jul 2018 11:29

http://idrw.org/common-sense-dictates-6 ... ore-176547

I dont know what to call this guy .. its always a bit expensive to build in India .. initially but less so in the long run because the technical expertise and infrastructure stays put .. common sense to build in Russia than India ?

.. absolute mockery

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 26 Jul 2018 11:56

Was this posted before?
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 702980.cms

The Comptroller and Auditor General has come down hard on the Indian Navy for causing inordinate delay in construction of four anti-submarine warfare corvettes.

The CAG was severely critical of the Navy's Directorate of Naval Design (DND) for delay in finalising the design of the corvettes, saying approved designs were amended 24 times.

The Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Limited (GRSE), a defence public sector undertaking (DPSU), was issued letter of intent for the project in 2003 but major modifications in design of the ships continued till 2008

It seems the fault lies with the service sometimes and not just the DPSU!

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 26 Jul 2018 16:22

Our platforms are late and few but very state of the art.

US, UK, Russian & Chinese dont have an active homing LRSAM. All their long range SAMs are SARH. Only UK/France/Italy have comparable but expensive Aster.

Other than the Russians and possibly Chinese, none have supersonic land attack missile or anti ship missile. There are no reported Chinese tests of supersonic missiles.

No ship has both supersonic LAM & AShM and Active Homing LRSAM combination. So why this Dhoti Shivering?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 26 Jul 2018 16:53

Numbers sir. Ships and money.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Jul 2018 16:57

We are fast approaching a time when we can start pumping out ships by he dozen. When will we start reaching a stage the PRC was 10 years ago.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jul 2018 17:03

US, UK, ~~Russian~~ & Chinese dont have an active homing LRSAM

SM6 has 2nd stage active homer based on amraam.

the redut-poliment now going into kuznetsov and some smaller ships also has active radar homing 9m96
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... hield.html

UK has aster

china is not blind...I am sure they will put active radar homers for medium and short range role if they see a need.

SM6 ERAM looks a formidable weapon - able to strike anything from TBM , supersonic low level skimmers, subsonic slow flyers over ground clutter...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-174_Standard_ERAM
its entered full rate production and will be the sharp end of the stick

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jul 2018 17:08

>>There are no reported Chinese tests of supersonic missiles.
https://sputniknews.com/military/201611 ... a-pacific/

chola · Post by **chola** » 26 Jul 2018 17:19

Pratyush wrote:We are fast approaching a time when we can start pumping out ships by he dozen. When will we start reaching a stage the PRC was 10 years ago.

You need a government willing to order by the dozen and with the will to force a economically viable design across multiple shipyards.

The P17a is a start with four ordered at MDL and another three at GRSE.

But the thing is the size of a destroyer at nearly 7K tons and as expensive (as a destroyer?) to boot. Not sure how accurate this story was but 45000 crores in today’s exchange rate equates to $6.7B. So over $900M per ship barely less expensive than our P15B destroyers.
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/n ... ips/479132

You cannot build dozens of these at that price. If we want to build at PRC levels we need cheaper smaller designs like their 1.5k ton Type 056 corvette and their 4k ton Type 054a frigates.

But as Tsarkarji points out, we fit our ships with Baraks and Brahmos and those require expense and size. We may never produce at the chini level due to our strategy even when we do acquire the industrial capacity.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jul 2018 18:10

We should be churning out a upgunned saryu and kamortas pur own 056 and 054

With diesel engines

056 has found export success with bangladesh argentina nigeria ad buyers already , they take 4 yesrs from laid down to commisioning

chola · Post by **chola** » 26 Jul 2018 18:31

Singha wrote:US, UK, ~~Russian~~ & Chinese dont have an active homing LRSAM

SM6 has 2nd stage active homer based on amraam.

the redut-poliment now going into kuznetsov and some smaller ships also has active radar homing 9m96
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... hield.html

UK has aster

china is not blind...I am sure they will put active radar homers for medium and short range role if they see a need.

SM6 ERAM looks a formidable weapon - able to strike anything from TBM , supersonic low level skimmers, subsonic slow flyers over ground clutter...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-174_Standard_ERAM
its entered full rate production and will be the sharp end of the stick

I quick-googled chini naval SAMs, Singhaji. They offer export versions of LRSAM FD-2000, MRSAM LY-80B and SRSAM LY-60/DK-10 (based on SD-10 MRAAM) with ARH. So highly unlikely they are not using ARH terminal homing on their own missiles.

They also have the IR point defense fire and forget FL-3000N for export that we have no counterpart for.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jul 2018 18:38

We are preparing for war

Dragon is influencing and winning the uneasy peace with its endless inventory parade

Sun tzu tactic of finding other means than bullets to get their goals

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 26 Jul 2018 18:53

SJha was talking about followup of P-15B, from his tone, one can tell it will be considerably bigger than P-15B. Wish to see Ticonderoga class' loadout with 100+ missiles.

chola · Post by **chola** » 26 Jul 2018 19:08

Singha wrote:We are preparing for war

Dragon is influencing and winning the uneasy peace with its endless inventory parade

Sun tzu tactic of finding other means than bullets to get their goals

I’ve been saying this. The chinis have perfected the Short Rice Eaters strategy against the warrior TFTAs. Don’t fight them in wartime, fight them in peacetime with your MIC.

When we refused to go to war over Doklam when we have OVERWHELMING advantages in manpower, aircraft and geography then I knew for certain then and there that we too are cut from the same rice paddy cloth. The difference is the chinis know they are SREs and formulate a strategy to that reality while we are always preparing for that grand TFTA battle royale by arming ourselves with firangi gear.

Just build our goddam MIC! Even with local equipment we are more than able to step squarely on the Paki’s neck and put a boot on Cheen’s rump when it comes to a fight. But without the MIC the war would be lost before any shots are taken.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 26 Jul 2018 19:12

Singha wrote:the redut-poliment now going into kuznetsov and some smaller ships also has active radar homing 9m96
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... hield.html

Can you share any reports of firing trials of any of those systems from any of those ships similar to our trials here -
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 06000.html

Singha wrote:>>There are no reported Chinese tests of supersonic missiles.
https://sputniknews.com/military/201611 ... a-pacific/

Unveiling doesnt mean a fully tested missile is in service. And we all know here the amount of testing required to refine and make a combat ready missile.

Their Type 54A and others have HQ-16 old Russian 9K37 missile inferior to Buk arming Talwar class.

John · Post by **John** » 26 Jul 2018 20:32

tsarkar wrote:Our platforms are late and few but very state of the art.

US, UK, Russian & Chinese dont have an active homing LRSAM. All their long range SAMs are SARH. Only UK/France/Italy have comparable but expensive Aster.

Other than the Russians and possibly Chinese, none have supersonic land attack missile or anti ship missile. There are no reported Chinese tests of supersonic missiles.

No ship has both supersonic LAM & AShM and Active Homing LRSAM combination. So why this Dhoti Shivering?

Barak-8 was an attempt by Israel to develop its own Aster as Europe was hesitant to sell Aster-30 to Israel, originally they approached Singapore for JV and later on it was India.

Unlike Aster-30, Barak-8 is supposed to offer far lower minimum range which translates into better intercept probability against super sonic missiles.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jul 2018 21:17

russian and chinese trials are far more opaque and they show what they want to show only. open src had no idea of the new russian v-weapons or even a sarmat video before putin's grand release.

but even if not in full service , it shows they are also on the same route as khan. the problem has similar solutions from different countries.

its a matter of time and when that time comes hope 1 Talwar can face off against 5 054A because that is the ship ratio they will bring to our door.

nam · Post by **nam** » 26 Jul 2018 21:43

chola wrote: But as Tsarkarji points out, we fit our ships with Baraks and Brahmos and those require expense and size. We may never produce at the chini level due to our strategy even when we do acquire the industrial capacity.

We now have local AESA solution to replicate/replace MF-Star in the form of DRDO's Airbase defence radar which was approved recently.

I so wish, L&T can produce a 3000 ton version of P17A or P15B, with AESA from DRDO, Barak from BDL, a subsonic ASHM from somewhere, DRDO Sonar and build them like pan cakes.

With Chini build up, there are so many countries who would lap up a 3k AESA+ Barak ship.

It is a market asking to be taken.

chola · Post by **chola** » 26 Jul 2018 22:22

nam wrote:
chola wrote: But as Tsarkarji points out, we fit our ships with Baraks and Brahmos and those require expense and size. We may never produce at the chini level due to our strategy even when we do acquire the industrial capacity.
We now have local AESA solution to replicate/replace MF-Star in the form of DRDO's Airbase defence radar which was approved recently.

I so wish, L&T can produce a 3000 ton version of P17A or P15B, with AESA from DRDO, Barak from BDL, a subsonic ASHM from somewhere, DRDO Sonar and build them like pan cakes.

With Chini build up, there are so many countries who would lap up a 3k AESA+ Barak ship.

It is a market asking to be taken.

The Kamorta is our 3K ton hi-tech corvette but it was deemed too expensive and we are building only one more.

Let’s build more Saryus (I like this suggestion, Singhaji.) Our NOPV is up in the air with Reliance and the Pipavav yard in financial limbo anyways. Just build more Saryus. Well upgun them too. It has good size and spaciously designed inhouse by GSL. Delivered in good time by our standards.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Jul 2018 23:10

Other problem with Kamorta is that despite the expense it is a one trick pony - ASW only. Of course, that is the way it was designed but it means that its main offensive weapon is its ASW helicopter which as of now is the aging Sea King. The ship won't reach its full potential till we get the Seahawk/NH-90 or equivalent.

A Kamorta sized multi-role design with 4/8 Brahmos + 16/32 Barak - 8 is sorely needed. Won't have the endurance of P-17 or P-17A but should be possible if the get rid of the RBU-6000 and perhaps the helo hanger if needed. Or reduce size of the hanger to accommodate only a light SAR bird instead of a Sea King sized helo.

nam · Post by **nam** » 26 Jul 2018 23:15

For countries wanting 3k ships, range should not be a major concern. They would want it to protect their territorial waters.