Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

[hnair]

Philip, every post of yours mention Kalibr. Its design is that of a turbofan powered subsonic missile that worked well from GW1 till Syria, against militia-category enemies with basic air-defense. It has not yet been used in anger against a first-rate military's well-armed and defended ship. Only shore targets. With its speed, we cannot assume it will reach its target, even against short-legged point-defense missiles like RAM.

Same way, Brahmos is also past its prime, except against pakis, due to availability of long range anti-missile SAMs. But hypersonic programs are slowly and quietly being brushed up, which makes brahmos look like a Kalibr. IN needs to move on to the next gen ASAp and work on such systems that can be retrofitted to older hulls.

Also automation does not necessarily make ships smaller. it just makes them have lesser crew. Zumwalt is a good example of automation of a huge ship with huge magazine. What you are talking about is miniaturization, which does not work well with naval hulls, due to basic considerations like sea-keeping, damage absorption, range etc. The slightly smaller FFG(X) program that US is going for, is to get as many sensor-laden hulls as economically feasible, into becoming part of a vast network to deal with PLAN. But even those are pretty big ships that are as big as regular destroyers.

[Philip]

"Brahmos past its prime".Great analysis since the US has no equiv.I suppose you're peddling Harpoon, since the US won't part with Tomahawk.Most western navies do not have a supersonic anti-ship missile in their arsenal and Brahmos has unique land attack features too, and can be N-tipped if need be.Its range is being enhanced to 800km as well.Our Nirbhay is still a work in progress, hence the attractiveness of Kalibir which can be fitted onto even corvette- sized warships. Kalibir's range is the key factor,2500km now,out to 4000km in the works.Far more than 300km Klub.Kalibir in model form will be on display at Lucknow. IN warships and subs armed with it can attack PLAN forces in the ICS from the ANC/ IOR Only the RuN is about to induct hypersonic missiles supposedly within a year,supposedly across the board and will be keenly watched.

Regarding missile defence.Yes, SAM systems are getting better but Brahmos will be fired in salvoes,not singly to ensure a hit.It's kinetic power will increase damage several times more than a subsonic missile too. Warships also have limited SAM magazined. Land attack from the sea is an increasing trend.The US has for decades done so. A % of variants will dffinitely be tasked for land attack. One also assumes that within 5 years time we will see the first induction of Brahmos-H ,as Brahmos-NG which can be carried in greater number by aircraft is required sooner. We can fit a conv. warhead to Dhanush ,but the missile is cumbersome ,like a V-2, and is in the strategic dept. Once the SSBNs are sufficient in number,Dhanush will in all probability be pensioned off.

Last year the RuN officially recd.55 Onyx missiles.This is in addition to unknown figs for Kalibir and other types. I can't speculate on Indian BMos production,not prudent,but it is accelerating as it will replace older systems aboard the older warships. The conversions have been seen for some time now aboard the Rajput/ Kashin-3s for a start.

The IN in truth deserves to be rewarded with extra funds as the % of indigenistation is phenomenal when compared to the IA and IAF.I am not aware of any protocols ( Ru/ US) reqd. for the air-launched BMos- NG for launch from the P-8s increasing in number. If there is a problem ,then the IN needs to get asap the supersonic maritime strike aircraft.of which both Backfire and Blackjack are available.These couldalso double as strat. bombers in any crisis with China.

[hnair]

Philip, be nice - You are not married to a Brahmos, are you? Then why are you going on a personal attack mode? I have warned or banned people for protesting in a similar personal fashion against your own illogical rants against Tejas program. And you are pulling same approach here

[John]

Kalibir's range is the key factor,2500km now,out to 4000km in the works.Far more than 300km Klub.Kalibir in model form will be on display at Lucknow. IN warships and subs armed with it can attack PLAN forces in the ICS from the ANC/ IOR Only the RuN is about to induct hypersonic missiles supposedly within a year,supposedly across the board and will be keenly watched.

Please stop bringing up Kalibr currently none of surface vessels other than first two batches of Talwar or P-17 can carry Klub family of missiles and even that may change once they are refit with L&T UVLS to fire Brahmos. P-15A/B,P-17A, new batch of Talwar, Delhi after refit all will have L&T launched (vertical or inclined) which are designed for Brahmos.

[Manish_P]

Please stop bringing up Kalibr currently none of surface vessels other than first two batches of Talwar or P-17 can carry Klub family of missiles and even that may change once they are refit with L&T UVLS to fire Brahmos.

Some make take that fact as an opportunity to suggest that we should also buy ships which can carry the Kalibr

[Thakur_B]

Kalibir's range is the key factor,2500km now,out to 4000km in the works.Far more than 300km Klub.Kalibir in model form will be on display at Lucknow. IN warships and subs armed with it can attack PLAN forces in the ICS from the ANC/ IOR Only the RuN is about to induct hypersonic missiles supposedly within a year,supposedly across the board and will be keenly watched.

Please stop bringing up Kalibr currently none of surface vessels other than first two batches of Talwar or P-17 can carry Klub family of missiles and even that may change once they are refit with L&T UVLS to fire Brahmos. P-15A/B,P-17A, new batch of Talwar, Delhi after refit all will have L&T launched (vertical or inclined) which are designed for Brahmos.

I may be wrong but iirc, Klub and Brahmos utilise the same VLS and so will Nirbhay.

[John]

Please stop bringing up Kalibr currently none of surface vessels other than first two batches of Talwar or P-17 can carry Klub family of missiles and even that may change once they are refit with L&T UVLS to fire Brahmos. P-15A/B,P-17A, new batch of Talwar, Delhi after refit all will have L&T launched (vertical or inclined) which are designed for Brahmos.

I may be wrong but iirc, Klub and Brahmos utilise the same VLS and so will Nirbhay.

That is Russian UVLS which can fire both Klub and Brahmos it has only been fitted on 2nd batch of Talwar IIRC, i believe earlier Talwars and P-17 carry the Klub launchers i have heard conflicting reports on whether they can fire brahmos or they have Russian UVLS as well. The L&T VLS can only fire brahmos (Nirbhay can be adapted for that launcher).

[Rakesh]

Philip: No personal attacks. I have put a user warning on your profile. If you continue to violate this rule, a ban will be issued.

John: Please use the name of the poster - in the quote - when replying. Hard to follow discussions otherwise. Edited your post.

[Raveen]

"you're peddling"

Oh I remember only a handful of days ago you were crying foul when you were accused of peddling something too.
HNair saab is fair in his assessment, we need hypersonic missiles for anything other than Pakis - SAM systems are more than capable of knocking a supersonic missile out of the sky.

[Aditya G]

Nice pic of Kamorta class corvette;

INS Kiltan (P30)

In cash-starved times i wish a ship like this could be acquired in large numbers. I am talking at least a dozen.

Sadly these are quite expensive, and couple with GRSE's production rate ....

Navy had a rock solid plan to kick start warship production in private industry with the OPVs and cadet training ships. Thanks to reliance not delivering the OPVs, i can imagine rest of the surface navy has to take a lot of pressure chasing up chinese "fishing" vessels, somali pirates, contraband boats and what not.

[John]

Philip: No personal attacks. I have put a user warning on your profile. If you continue to violate this rule, a ban will be issued.

John: Please use the name of the poster - in the quote - when replying. Hard to follow discussions otherwise. Edited your post.

Was being lazy takes forever to fix quotes in mobile :p

[Rakesh]

You are telling me. I hate posting in BRF on a mobile phone. Annoying.

[hgupta]

"you're peddling"

Oh I remember only a handful of days ago you were crying foul when you were accused of peddling something too.

IIRC, Raveen, your posts went way beyond the words of "peddling" when attacking Philip

Why is everyone ganging up on Philip just because he happens to be a big fan of Russian weaponry? Russia was the only country willing to lease a nuke sub twice, stood by India during its darkest days during 1971 and Op Shakti tests and offered India the latest weapons it has on hand except the strategic weapons that it was prevented from offering due to various treaties signed by Russia prior. Even though USA has highly advanced weapons, it doesn't mean that we have to go gaga all over the US weaponry all the time. I disagree with Philip half of the time but I get where he is coming from.

HNair saab is fair in his assessment, we need hypersonic missiles for anything other than Pakis - SAM systems are more than capable of knocking a supersonic missile out of the sky.

Really? I have yet to see a reliable defense by SAMs against supersonic missiles. For starters, take a look at the recent missile attacks by Iran. Iran were able to land several missiles on a US base despite the presence of Patriot missiles. Or the various successful strikes by western powers against Russian SAMs in Libya and Syria even though the western powers do not have hypersonic missiles.

Sure we should start R&D into hypersonic missiles but by no standard do we have a reliable way of knocking out supersonic missiles out of the sky. That means Brahmos is still an effective weapon for the next 20 years.

And besides all this talk about hypersonic missiles is pretty useless unless we have the C4SI system that can extend more than 200 km to go along with that. Without the C4SI system, the hypersonic missile is nothing but a fancy toy and totally useless. It can't even reach hypersonic speed within the first 100 km and needs to slow down to practical speed to manuever to avoid SAMs etc. And to date, I do not see a C4SI system that can extend beyond 200 km on the high seas in Indian hands. Sure it has components such as the P-8i and satellites but nothing of the kind that can offer 24/7 constant monitoring while providing continuing mid flight updates in a holistic approach.

[nachiket]

Really? I have yet to see a reliable defense by SAMs against supersonic missiles. For starters, take a look at the recent missile attacks by Iran. Iran were able to land several missiles on a US base despite the presence of Patriot missiles. Or the various successful strikes by western powers against Russian SAMs in Libya and Syria even though the western powers do not have hypersonic missiles.

Iranian attacks were by ballistic missiles none of which can be launched from a ship or submarine, not cruise missiles like Brahmos or Klub/Kalibre. The hypersonic missiles hnair was talking about were hypersonic cruise missiles. Not that we are aclose to deploying any such missile at the moment. Brahmos will remain our main LACM and AShM for the foreseeable future.

[John]

Really? I have yet to see a reliable defense by SAMs against supersonic missiles. For starters, take a look at the recent missile attacks by Iran. Iran were able to land several missiles on a US base despite the presence of Patriot missiles. Or the various successful strikes by western powers against Russian SAMs in Libya and Syria even though the western powers do not have hypersonic missiles.

Iranian attacks were by ballistic missiles none of which can be launched from a ship or submarine, not cruise missiles like Brahmos or Klub/Kalibre. The hypersonic missiles hnair was talking about were hypersonic cruise missiles. Not that we are aclose to deploying any such missile at the moment. Brahmos will remain our main LACM and AShM for the foreseeable future.

OT but there were no patriot systems in Iraq.

[nachiket]

Even if there had been, any failure to intercept ballistic missiles cannot be used to gauge efficacy of SAM systems in general against Cruise Missiles, whether supersonic or not.

[brar_w]

Really? I have yet to see a reliable defense by SAMs against supersonic missiles. For starters, take a look at the recent missile attacks by Iran. Iran were able to land several missiles on a US base despite the presence of Patriot missiles. Or the various successful strikes by western powers against Russian SAMs in Libya and Syria even though the western powers do not have hypersonic missiles.

There were no Patriot batteries deployed in Iraq, leave aside a battalion sized AD force that guards other permanent US bases in the region. There is just one Patriot and/or Q-53 radar (just radars) located in Baghdad to provide early warning for the folks within the green zone. Even to this day there is no Patriot air defense system depoyed to Iraq though the status agreement with the Iraqis is going to be changed to allow for that posture. Keep in mind that the Iranians attacked an Iraqi airbase, a portion of which was being used by the US. This was not a permanent US establishment with all the bells and whistles of defensive systems that are deployed there. The forces deployed there were postured for a very different mission as one would expect. That may change now as long as the politics can be worked out.

This from 5 days ago - https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoin ... -iraq-yet/

I have yet to see a reliable defense by SAMs against supersonic missiles.

What sort of defense are you looking for? Every US Navy SAM is tested against a Mach 2-4 ranged cruise missile surrogates. Both during its development and operational test stage and as a routine to provide deploying carrier strike force elements valuable practice in case they encounter the real deal. Both types of threats - sea-skimming, fast with ability to manuever, and medium-high altitude fast with the ability to dive. Ditto for ballistic missiles in the short-medium (terminal endoatmospheric defense) and medium-intermediate (exoatmospheric defense) capability. In addition to USN interceptors (Standard Missile family for example) the French and the Japanase have also tested their interceptors against the threat. Israelis are also going to try it out this year.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2063115&hili ... e#p2063115

If you are talking about real world defense then I think the case can be made for both sides. How many well defended ships have supersonic sea skimmers sunk?

I think the point that he was trying to make, and one that is valid, is that the that threat has been existent for a long time. Mach 2-3 anti-ship missiles have existed for a long time allowing technology to be developed to defend against it. Both hard and soft kill technology. That doesn't mean it isn't a serious headache and can't ruin the day of any Navy no matter how strong. It just means that it is not something that is so capable that designing something to defeat it is technically beyond the reach of humans.

So the next chapter is going to be to push the limits of capability and performance which would mean lower signatures, higher agility, faster speed, and the ability to leverage non-traditional means to overcome some of the defenses that have been placed. The problem of defeating a mach 2-3 sea skimmer isn't about defeating the weapon itself but absorbing that defense as part of a larger system that must defend against an integrated threat. When threats become integrated then that stresses a ship or a strike group's defenses in a manner much different than just a linear change. It gets complicated very fast.

Having said that, against the Chinese defenses the Brahmos is going to be a viable system for decades. Systems like AEGIS have evolved over 50 years, and hundreds of live test shots and synthetic testing informed by decades of systems engineering and threat system development. The larger Chinese destroyers may try to emulate an AEGIS vessel but it is going to take them a long long time to develop the technology, establish systems and develop processes to effectively utilize whatever they have. They are pumping out ships at an alarming rate but those things take a long time to bed down institutionally. When the become mature and realize that there is no substitution to advanced development and ops testing and threat system investment they'll try to match what the USN invests in its systems and integrated testing. They have the budget for that but these things take a long time..and you can't really step on the gas and move things very fast.

It can't even reach hypersonic speed within the first 100 km and needs to slow down to practical speed to manuever to avoid SAMs etc.

Could you please elaborate.

[hnair]

Why is everyone ganging up on Philip just because he happens to be a big fan of Russian weaponry?

hgupta, you saying that itself is a ganging up with Philip and then again, no one is doing any co-ordinate attack on Philip, not now, not in the past. So you are creating a strawman. I went and looked up your past posts and saw you claim similar things on behalf of Philip on another occasion.

Stick to the topic of the thread. If you feel any issues with posters, report it. No more unpaid advocate role for Philip.

Any more comments on this, take to Forum Issues thread

[hnair]

brar_w, swarm attack by supersonic AShMs have been an area of focus for USN, since public first started hearing of Aegis in the early 80s, almost 40 years ago. So why would you infer that the PLAN need that many decades to get their act together? They seem to have all the building blocks a while ago.

[Cain Marko]

Same way, Brahmos is also past its prime, except against pakis, due to availability of long range anti-missile SAMs. But hypersonic programs are slowly and quietly being brushed up, which makes brahmos look like a Kalibr. IN needs to move on to the next gen ASAp and work on such systems that can be retrofitted to older hulls.
.

Well that's the nature of the game. Every weapon system gets old. But iirc the brahmos is part of a cip that allows it to remain rather relevant. From seekers to range to air launched variant, Lots of improvement on this missile since it's induction. And they do have a hypersonic program as well. Not to mention a lighter version.

This is a premier missile in it's category and far from extinction. To say that it's past it's prime is being facetious at the very least. Fact remains that as it currently stands, there is no equivalent, anywhere. And there are hardly any ship defences that can comfortably overcome such missiles. Perhaps only the USN could conjure up something.

[brar_w]

brar_w, swarm attack by supersonic AShMs have been an area of focus for USN, since public first started hearing of Aegis in the early 80s, almost 40 years ago. So why would you infer that the PLAN need that many decades to get their act together? They seem to have all the building blocks a while ago.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2411630#p2411630

[Nikhil T]

HSL delivers INS Sindhuvir refit four days ahead of schedule

Hindustan Shipyard Limited displayed its prowess in submarine repair by completing extensive repairs, upgrades, system integration and trials of INS Sindhuvir, a Sindhughosh-class diesel-electric submarine of the Indian Navy, ahead of schedule.

HSL delivered the refitted submarine on Wednesday, ahead of the contractual delivery date of February 9. This is the second such feat for the shipyard, which had earlier completed the refit of INS Astradharini 14 days ahead of schedule.

Rear Admiral L.V. Sarat Babu (retired), Chairman and Managing Director of HSL, said that the timely completion of the refit was possible due to active involvement of the Naval Dockyard, Visakhapatnam and the support of the Eastern Naval Command. Apart from this, the strong vendor base of about 70 MSMEs developed during the refit had cumulatively generated sizeable local revenue, employment and enhancement of skill, he stated.


The CMD said this puts HSL on a strong pedestal for undertaking future submarine projects like P75I construction, medium refit life certification of INS Sindhugosh and other submarine refits by harnessing the potential of Indian companies.

[Nikhil T]

Another good news for Navy's sub fleet:

Navy to get third Scorpene submarine in Dec 2020

The third Scorpene submarine, Karanj, will be delivered to the Indian Navy by December and all six submarine deliveries would be completed by 2022, Nicolas de La Villemarque, Vice President India, Asia and Pacific of Naval Group, said on Wednesday.

Mr. Villemarque said discussions were on to fit Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) modules on all Scorpenes beginning 2023. “The Scorpene submarine has the ability to be equipped with an AIP system. The first AIP will be equipped during the first refit of the first Scorpene,” he said in a conversation with The Hindu at Defexpo 2020, which began here on Wednesday.


Talks were underway with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) and the Navy. A design agreement was expected to be signed with the DRDO by the year end, he stated.

Karanj was launched into water in January 2018 and is currently in advanced stages of sea trials. The first Scorpene, Kulvari, was commissioned in 2018 and it would go for a normal refit after six years in 2023, during which time time the AIP would be installed. Second Scorpene Khanderi was inducted in September last.

An indigenous fuel cell-based AIP module is currently under development by the DRDO. The project reached a milestone in October 2019 with the successful operation of a land-based prototype engineered to the form-and-fit of a submarine. The DRDO has expressed confidence that the module will be ready in time for installation on Kulvari.

An AIP module gives stealth and extended endurance to diesel-electric submarines by allowing them to stay submerged longer.

Mr. Villemarque said they would do design simulations to “work out the technicalities of the project which involves Jumboisation, the process of cutting, joining and putting various blocks together.”

Project-75I
Naval Group is among the five Original Equipment Manufactures (OEM) shortlisted for the Navy’s project for advanced submarines under Project-75I being processed through the Strategic Partnership (SP) model of defence procurement. MDL and Larsen & Tourbo are the two Indian companies shortlisted under it and the Request For Proposal (RFP) would be issued to them.

Mr. Villemarque said they awaited a interest from the Indian companies to discuss potential tie-ups. “Our submarine is bespoked to the Indian Navy requirements. It was based in both Scorpene and Barracudda class platforms,” he added.

The Naval Group last month responded to the Navy’s long-pending tender for heavy weight torpedoes, which would equip the Scorpenes.

Delayed plan
Earlier, the Navy planned to install AIP modules on the last two of the six Scorpenes as they rolled out of the production line. However, it could not be realised due to developmental delays.

MDL is manufacturing the submarines with technology assistance from the Naval Group under a $3.75 bn deal signed in October 2005.

[Philip]

Plip needs no advocate pliz,can't pay lawyer's fees!

Reg. fancy missile defences,look how well Patriot has worked against Houthi/ Iranian strikes. Even the Israelis almost lost a corvette against the Hiz some time ago. If you look at the various missile attacks in past conflicts from the sinking of the Eilat,'71 war, the Falklands to the present day, missiles do get through defences no matter how highly touted they are. The real breakthrough may take place when laser defences are introduced,in the works,but they need high power sources,etc.Why US subs ,all nuclear ,are getting some kind of laser weaponry for the future.

The main issue here is the relevance of Brahmos.When the French are touting at Lucknow their subsonic Exocet, Brahmos is in a league by itself with the added bonus of specialised variants. The extreme haste with which the US is to field its own supersonic strike missiles taken from BM and SAM systems speaks for itself.
Right now it's the " top of the pops".Sure,rivals will arrive- the Chins slready have their own s'sonic missile, but BMos is the most mature of the lot.Once the NG and H versions arrive,it will catapult it even further ahead of its rivals.

[brar_w]

Reg. fancy missile defences,look how well Patriot has worked against Houthi/ Iranian strikes.

Even the Israelis almost lost a corvette against the Hiz some time ago.

The extreme haste with which the US is to field its own supersonic strike missiles taken from BM and SAM systems speaks for itself.

Replied to all three points below -

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2411630#p2411630

[John]

Philip wrote:
Even the Israelis almost lost a corvette against the Hiz some time ago.


Isreali Navy fields nothing like the AEGIS

Another OT INS Hanit radar was not operational when it was hit by C-802 Ashm and both Barak-1 and ECM were on standby

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%27ar ... s_corvette

To add to it Israel has tested Barak-8 to ironically defeat Yakhont in tests due to Russia supplying Syria with Yakhont and the threat it poses to offshore platforms.

[Prem Kumar]

If the Scorpenes will be refitted with AIP starting 2023, doesn't it beg the question: why not order 6 more AIP-fitted Scorpenes instead of the elaborate P-75I tender? We can just keep the line going with steady inductions.

[MeshaVishwas]

JFD supplies life-saving equipment to Indian Navy

https://www.naval-technology.com/news/j ... dian-navy/

[John]

Model of Talwar to be built by GSL in Defexpo shows single Shtil arm launcher not Vl-Shtil as speculated earlier. Might have provision for SR-SAM to be fitted later on next to Ak-630.

Vikrant looks to have 2 16 cell Barak-8 modules and 4? Ak-630 (looks like Oto-76 mm guns displayed in some earlier models were dropped)

[Philip]

The Scorpene design which we are building is long in the tooth and compromised with the data leaks. Secondly, its MESMA AIP system though safer, is supposedly inferior to fuell cell tech and purely in sale numbers, inferior to German AIP U-boats ( 212/214/216) based upon the 1980s 209 design which we've operated .These U-boats use fuel cell AIP systems, more dangerous , but give better performance than MESMA.Fuel cells are becoming even more capable with new Li battery tech. expanding in usage.

In fact there are calls in the Oz. media quoting experts that the new French AIP Barracuda sub programme costing $50B Oz. should be dumped as it has too many unpredictables from design,construction and cost escalation. In the sub world, latest news is that both Ru sub bureaus,Rubin and Malakit are designing new small AIP " commando" subs with a 1000+nm range,small crew with a large contingent of commandos. These are specialist designs. Most new subs being acquired are around 2000t to 3000t. The IN should resist the urge to increase the size of our planned AIP subs beyond this size ,attempting a pocket conventional AIP SSN ,which will also cost us a bomb. This will allow the IN to acquire more N-subs which will be the real force- multipliers in the maritime arena of the IOR and beyond.

PS: John, they may be using older models. unless the ships being built in Russia have aready been outfitted for the same.However,the Ru equiv.,the Grigorivich class FFGs,6 of them,all have VLS cells for the 9M317M SAMs, a total of 24. So it would be more likely to have the same missiles or B-8 if compatible.

[John]

PS: John, they may be using older models. unless the ships being built in Russia have aready been outfitted for the same.However,the Ru equiv.,the Grigorivich class FFGs,6 of them,all have VLS cells for the 9M317M SAMs, a total of 24. So it would be more likely to have the same missiles or B-8 if compatible.

No these are newer models they have Oto 76mm and VLS May also be L&T UVLS likely similar fit for the ones completed in Russia. The contract does state Russia will fit made in India equipment and sensor as part of deal.

Added: I didn’t notice on my initial look but looks like it will also have 16 Barak-8 (possible it is Sr-SAM instead) which is located in front of Shtil arm launcher.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/122 ... 09697?s=20 ----> Model of India's 1st Indigenous Floating Dock (FDN-2) at display @ Def Expo India by L&T. The ship is already operational with the navy, it was launched in 2018.

* Lifting capacity: Up to 8000 T
* Fully-automated Ballast Control System
* Constructed of military-grade steel.



https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/122 ... 05442?s=20 ---->

* Multiple docking capability warships and submarines
* Retractable cover for all-weather operations
* Fully-automated hauling-in system
* Services the needs of docked ships and ships berthed alongside
* Redundancy of critical systems

[ldev]

An early test of the primacy of the CDS?

Indian Navy will push ahead with plan for 3rd aircraft carrier despite CDS’ reservations

The Navy believes it should have two aircraft carriers available for deployment at all times, even if one is undergoing re-fits.
SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP 21 February, 2020 4:14 pm IST

New Delhi: The Indian Navy is firm on its plans to have a third aircraft carrier despite Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) Gen Bipin Rawat’s scepticism, and will approach the government for permission to initiate formal design consultancy, ThePrint has learnt.

“The third aircraft carrier is an operational necessity,” a source in the Navy said. “It is not that an aircraft carrier can be bought off the shelf. Even if all permissions are given today, it will take 15 years for the carrier to be inducted.”

A second source said the Navy was moving ahead with the design consultancy phase for the carrier, adding that formal permissions would be sought.

[kit]

An early test of the primacy of the CDS?

Indian Navy will push ahead with plan for 3rd aircraft carrier despite CDS’ reservations

Not really, CDS looks at the big picture over all 3/4 services, the Navy looks at what it has to deal with over the future (An AC group is very desired , so are the subs, its all relative) , the peninsula command is interesting , does it have jurisdiction over the littoral IOR?

[kit]

Plip needs no advocate pliz,can't pay lawyer's fees!

Reg. fancy missile defences,look how well Patriot has worked against Houthi/ Iranian strikes. Even the Israelis almost lost a corvette against the Hiz some time ago. If you look at the various missile attacks in past conflicts from the sinking of the Eilat,'71 war, the Falklands to the present day, missiles do get through defences no matter how highly touted they are. The real breakthrough may take place when laser defences are introduced,in the works,but they need high power sources,etc.Why US subs ,all nuclear ,are getting some kind of laser weaponry for the future.

The main issue here is the relevance of Brahmos.When the French are touting at Lucknow their subsonic Exocet, Brahmos is in a league by itself with the added bonus of specialised variants. The extreme haste with which the US is to field its own supersonic strike missiles taken from BM and SAM systems speaks for itself.
Right now it's the " top of the pops".Sure,rivals will arrive- the Chins slready have their own s'sonic missile, but BMos is the most mature of the lot.Once the NG and H versions arrive,it will catapult it even further ahead of its rivals.

Quite agree with this assessment, once the fully indian versions roll out these will be more capable and cheaper than any gold plated foreign stuff. Also remember the brahmos variants being fielded now and in future are no longer the vanilla brahmos., funny the DRDO hasnt introduced any new nomenclature for the new versions !!., it would seem as if it was the same missile that was fielded 5 years back when it is several blocks ahead , almost a generation ahead of the ones initially deployed.

[LakshmanPST]

An early test of the primacy of the CDS?

Indian Navy will push ahead with plan for 3rd aircraft carrier despite CDS’ reservations

Rawat-ji never said that 3rd Carrier will get cancelled... He only said that Submarines etc. are a priority for now...

The way this source-based article is written, it is trying to imply that Navy is openly defying CDS's decision to cancel the 3rd carrier altogether, which he never said...

I guess preliminary work for the 3rd carrier will go ahead...

[pankajs]

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/12 ... 4285652993

Manu Pubby @manupubby

India’s Rs 1.2 lakh crore nuclear attack submarine project moving on to the next step.

SSNs to go to detailed design and construction phase.

First boat could be ready in a decade.

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/12 ... quote]Manu Pubby @manupubby

Initial design phase has progressed successfully, more resources will now be deployed to move to the more complex detailed design and construction — to be undertaken by the Directorate of Naval Design (Submarine Design Group) with assistance from DRDO.[/quote]

[Rakesh]

Rawat-ji never said that 3rd Carrier will get cancelled... He only said that Submarines etc. are a priority for now...

The way this source-based article is written, it is trying to imply that Navy is openly defying CDS's decision to cancel the 3rd carrier altogether, which he never said...

I guess preliminary work for the 3rd carrier will go ahead...

The six SSNs will get approved first. See the post above and see this post from pankajs and this post from wig in the Indian Nuclear Submarines thread ----> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7110&p=2415475#p2415475

I am glad the chief put a timeline to the construction of IAC-2. Very good data point. So 15 years is the plan for a 65,000 ton, EMALS equipped aircraft carrier. Factor in the fact that this vessel will be built in an Indian shipyard, it will be 20+ years.

As per CDS, they will wait to see the performance of the Vikrant before ordering IAC-2. Since Vikrant is due to commission in 2022, it will take a couple of years after that for formal sanction. So around 2024/2025 for the keel laying and that is being optimistic. So from that date...a commissioning of 2040 by the Navy's estimates, but in reality it will be more in the mid 2040s.

What ever happened to the third carrier being an operational necessity? Perhaps China will wait for the next 20+ years for the IN to have its third carrier operational. The Chinese play fair after all.

[Rakesh]

The foundation of the 57 carrier borne fighter contest lies on acquring a third aircraft carrier. Good luck with that.

https://twitter.com/neeraj_rajput/statu ... 10369?s=20 ---> Priority for Indian Navy now is submarines & minesweepers, third aircraft carrier can wait till indigenous Vikrant is completed: CDS Gen Bipin Rawat.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 66689?s=20 ---> Navy was getting its priorities rapidly out of step with its actual capacities. They were planning for white elephants* like carriers and LHD when they don’t even have modern helicopters, minesweepers or enough subs. *White elephants when they don’t have requisite support.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 41120?s=20 ---> It’s good that CDS has come along and asked all services to think about immediate needs first and building foundations for the future. Seemed that some generals were living in la la land entirely ignoring ground realities.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 31136?s=20 ----> If IAC-2 is off the table then so is MRCBF. This actually gives ADA/HAL time to work on TEDBF for the Vikramaditya and Vikrant and maybe even IAC-2 (until NAMCA is ready).

[ArjunPandit]

^^based on the above, I think navy will be forced to look into NLCA too