Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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chetak
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by chetak »

Austin wrote:They are both under the guise of anti nuclear stance they want to restrain india becoming a major power in this part of the world , they just toe the west line and try to cover it up with its anti nuclear stance.
+1

They don't want bookha nanga Indians cutting their patta.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by g.sarkar »

John wrote:^ It has to do with Japan's anti nuclear stance nothing to do with curbing influence.
I know, Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. Japan was traumatized etc., etc. Even today Japanese are dying from cancer caused by these two explosions etc. What happened with this stance when US, Russia and China exploded zillions of Nuclear devices? There may have been some token demonstrations if at all. What about the nuclear programs of has been powers such as UK and France? Going by an anti-nuclear stance Japan should have stopped trade with all these countries. That never happened. The fact is Japan works for the US in being anti-nuclear and in return gets the nuclear umbrella. If Japan wants to collaborate with India, it has to reign in its anti-nuclear activists and accept India's role.
Gautam
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by arun »

Singha wrote:Image

:wink: That picture reminds of the rap number Baby Got Back by Sir Mix-A-Lot which has the lines :

I like big butts and I can not lie
You other brothers can't deny
That when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist
And a round thing in your face
You get sprung, want to pull up tough ………………..

For the You Tube Video of the song:

You Tube Clicky
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by nash »

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/1362502/

As reported by FE Online earlier, the Japanese side had shown interest to participate in the Indian Navy’s Project 75 (I) – building of six diesel-electric submarines. Two Japanese companies were among those had received the RfI from the Indian Navy: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, manufacturers of the ultra-quiet Soryu class submarine.

How true it is? Last I know they are not agreed to sell it.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by arvin »

iirc, japan and navantia didnt respond to the rfi. So we have only 4 contenders here.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Rakesh »

India, Russia Sign $950 Million Deal For 2 Guided-Missile Frigates
https://thediplomat.com/2018/10/india-r ... -frigates/
“Sources told [The Economic Times] that while final clearances for the long-pending project came before the summit earlier this month between President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi, the deal was signed last week after price negotiations,” The Economic Times reported on October 29. A follow-on contract for the construction of two additional Admiral Grigorovich-class frigates is expected to be signed in the near future. Notably, neither India nor Russia officially confirmed the signing of any agreement.
The frigates from Russia will be fitted with BrahMos Missiles for the Indian Navy
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... y/1365775/
After getting Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), New Delhi and Moscow have signed agreement to buy two stealth frigates for $ 950 mn -- Admiral Grigorovich-class (Project 11356) or advanced Talwar-class frigates.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Rakesh »

^^^^

Admiral Grigorovich Class frigate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_G ... ss_frigate
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by souravB »

Angad Singh: Twitter link

IAC-I and Vikramaditya at CSL. Bottom right of the image, DRDO TDV aka Ship 20 can also be seen

Image

DRDO TDV aka Ship 20

Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:India, Russia Sign $950 Million Deal For 2 Guided-Missile Frigates
https://thediplomat.com/2018/10/india-r ... -frigates/

The frigates from Russia will be fitted with BrahMos Missiles for the Indian Navy
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... y/1365775/
IMO i think its best deal thank goodness they decided to postpone the idea of building them locally at the insane $$. It also opens up for possibility of Barak-8 being fitted on the vessels, since these vessels have not been fitted yet.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Rakesh »

In the picture that sourav posted...the beam (203 feet) of the Vikrant looks really wide when compared to the beam (196 feet) of the Vikramaditya, despite their actually being a difference of only 7 feet. Perhaps it is has something to do with the Vikrant being significantly shorter in length (860 feet), than the Vikramaditya (930 feet).

After seeing the Vikrant, I am being reminded of this picture that Singha posted.... :mrgreen:

As a side note, can someone advise on the technical challenges - if any - in stretching the Vikrant design? So from the present 40,000 tonnes to a 60K or 65K tonne aircraft carrier.
Singha wrote:Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by souravB »

We missed the biggest news of the day.
source:
Ministry of Shipping: Twitter link
India's largest Drydock at CSL to
-Build 2nd Indigenous Aircraft Carrier for Indian Navy,
-Tap market potential of large specialized,technologically advanced ships, large dredgers with green technology
-Make Kochi a Major Maritime Hub
Image

It seems like IAC-2 could very well be 950+ ft in length and 210+ ft in width.
Projected finish date Aug 2019. There is a very nice flash video at the source. I am unable to post it here.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by chola »

Rakesh wrote:In the picture that sourav posted...the beam (203 feet) of the Vikrant looks really wide when compared to the beam (196 feet) of the Vikramaditya, despite their actually being a difference of only 7 feet. Perhaps it is has something to do with the Vikrant being significantly shorter in length (860 feet), than the Vikramaditya (930 feet).
The Vikramaditya is not only longer but it tapers to a much narrower arse than the modern Vikrant design. Not to mention the Vikrant doesn’t have a massive cruiser’s superstructure eating into the middle of the runway.

The Vikrant is a smaller QE in shape, IMHO. It’s beautiful
in form and function. It will be a far more forgiving ship to land on.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by tsarkar »

Rakesh wrote:There are six SSNs right now, in the planning phase. But the high cost involved of maintaining an all SSN fleet requires the Navy to have SSKs as well. The Soryu has many advantages over the Type 209, Kilo and the Scorpene.

And India does require SSKs to defend from enemies in their littorals. And a SSK is inherently more silent than a SSN. It does not have the reach of a SSN, but that is not required of the SSK. In numerous exercises with Los Angeles Class boats, our Kilos have gotten the better of them every time. That is not because the Los Angeles Class is a bad vessel, but rather that the Kilo is much more quieter.

They do not call a Kilo boat, the black hole for nothing.
Correct. To add, sharing a post I made 1-3-2016 here -

Diesel Electric submarines are very silent when operating in electric batteries. However, speed is very less with batteries. So is endurance. When in transit, or recharging batteries, they are noisier. A DE submarine is a sniper of the deeps. But like every sniper, they're good when nearly motionless. They lose effectiveness when in motion.

Now, nuclear submarines are more noisier because of pumps circulating coolant and steam turbines. All nuclear submarines are capable of high speeds, its the ability to keep noise low at high speed that is critical.

So, for a nuclear submarine to deal with a DE submarine, it has to use active sonar and make high speed interceptor slash & run attacks. If it lingers, it'll be vulnerable to the sniping DE submarine. It also needs the high speed to outrun torpedoes. Even though it'll be noisy at high speeds, the DE submarine wont be able to catch up or keep up with it.

Which is why IN was not euphoric when IN Type 877EKM tracked a US Nuclear Submarine in restricted area in recent Malabar exercises. Had the area not been restricted, the nuclear submarine could've used active sonar over long range and attacked and ran. The DE submarine would not have the speed or endurance under those circumstances.

It is similar to air combat between supersonic and subsonic fighters. In 1965, a Pakistani Starfighter attempted to dogfight with an Indian Mystere and the Starfighter went down. Because the supersonic fighter was less maneuverable than the subsonic fighter. Similarly, in 1971, an IAF MiG-21 attempted to dogfight with a Pakistani Sabre and the MiG-21 was shot down. The supersonic fighter in both cases should have made high speed interception passes instead of attempting to dogfight.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Manish_P »

The supersonic fighter in both cases should have made high speed interception passes instead of attempting to dogfight.
^ Tsarkar ji, small doubt re the above.

Was that method of interception forced or pilot error?

As in were the supersonic fighters forced to make the low speed dogfights (AAMs used up/not carried, last moment detection,...)

In the case of the Submarines there is no different close in weapon (like AAMs vs Canon), in that case what is the optimum way for a high speed fire and run intercept. Is it head on or is it first manuever into a tail chase position ?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by tsarkar »

Manish_P wrote:Was that method of interception forced or pilot error?
In both cases pilot error caused by instinct. The Starfighter and MiG-21 got the first shot. On missing, they instinctively tried to turn. A faster fighter has higher turning radius than a slower one and the faster fighter has to slow down during the turn. In both cases the Mystere and Sabre on the inner turning radius was able to get them in the gunsight and shoot them down.

Classic case of instinct proving horribly wrong. A better approach would have been to zoom out of range and re-engage at long range.
Manish_P wrote:In the case of the Submarines there is no different close in weapon (like AAMs vs Canon), in that case what is the optimum way for a high speed fire and run intercept. Is it head on or is it first manuever into a tail chase position ?
For a nuclear submarine, use its high speed to quickly approach, make a glancing torpedo attack using active sonar and zoom off before enemy torpedo can catch up. Similar to a horseman doing tent pegging. If missed, still zoom off at high speed. Maneuver must be avoided at all cost against a slower target since it requires one to slow down and the slower submarine will have the advantage.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by tsarkar »

INS Rana refitted with Revathi radar and C-Pearl ESM/EW system taken from Godavari class frigate
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpT1-GHWwAEw9ni.jpg

INS Sahyadri with Seaking Mk42B
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dpd7H7DXoAEBH8d.jpg

INS Shakti with Seaking Mk42C Commando
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dpd7HJKW0AIkBx0.jpg
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Manish_P »

tsarkar wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Was that method of interception forced or pilot error?
In both cases pilot error caused by instinct. The Starfighter and MiG-21 got the first shot. On missing, they instinctively tried to turn. A faster fighter has higher turning radius than a slower one and the faster fighter has to slow down during the turn. In both cases the Mystere and Sabre on the inner turning radius was able to get them in the gunsight and shoot them down.

Classic case of instinct proving horribly wrong. A better approach would have been to zoom out of range and re-engage at long range.
Thank you. I am clearer now about the gist of what you have said.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Indranil »

Details of AIP program and current state of development.

DRDO Newsletter Sept'18
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Manish_P »

tsarkar wrote:
Manish_P wrote:In the case of the Submarines there is no different close in weapon (like AAMs vs Canon), in that case what is the optimum way for a high speed fire and run intercept. Is it head on or is it first manuever into a tail chase position ?
For a nuclear submarine, use its high speed to quickly approach, make a glancing torpedo attack using active sonar and zoom off before enemy torpedo can catch up. Similar to a horseman doing tent pegging. If missed, still zoom off at high speed. Maneuver must be avoided at all cost against a slower target since it requires one to slow down and the slower submarine will have the advantage.
tsarkar Sir, one request. With your Navy background, can you pls. check this linked post and share your opinion of how accurate this guy's explanations are - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7235&p=2303208#p2303208

(i am not posting the videos here since it has strictly nothing to do with Indian Navy as such)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by JTull »

Indranil wrote:Details of AIP program and current state of development.

DRDO Newsletter Sept'18
Wow, excellent details.
After setting to work, the LBP was trialed by the user from September 2017 to January 2018. The performance of the LBP was found satisfactory... The plant was operated in presence of IN representatives who in turn operated part of the system and expressed satisfaction towards its operability and safety. The primary power train of integrated AIP was, therefore, successfully tested through the LBP.
In the year 2010 when serious activities on the project was started, the Technology Readiness Level (TRL) was just about 2 to 3. As the endurance trials in form and fit prototype get completed in January 2018, the TRL
has risen to 7.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by SaiK »

The new dock will have a length of 310 m, stepped dock with a width of 75 m at the wider part and 60 m at the narrower part. The depth will be 13 m and a drought of 9.5 m. Currently, CSL has two dry dock facilities. The construction is estimated to be completed in two years.

“With the new dry dock, CSL can build ships of 2,00,000 deadweight tonnes. CSL can manufacture aircraft carriers, LNG vessels, jack-up rigs, drill ships and dredgers.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Rakesh »

SaiK: where is the quote from?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Ankit Desai »

Rakesh wrote:SaiK: where is the quote from?
IDRW

-Ankit
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by jaysimha »

http://www.pib.nic.in/Pressreleaseshare ... ID=1551790

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
02 NOV 2018 9:11PM by PIB Delhi
Indian Navy’s Deep Submergence Rescue Vessel (DSRV) Capability

The Indian Navy has inducted a Submarine Rescue System with a Deep Submergence Rescue Vessel (DSRV) along with associated equipment. This System has a Side Scan Sonar for locating the position of the submarine in distress at sea, providing immediate relief by way of posting Emergency Life Support Containers with the help of Remotely Operated Vehicle (ROV) and thereafter rescuing the crew of the submarine using the DSRV itself. In a submarine accident, rapidity of response is most crucial to safety of life. To ensure early mobilisation, the System has been procured in a Flyaway configuration which permits rapid transportation of the Rescue System from the base to the exact location of the distressed submarine by transportation using air/land/sea vessels.

The Indian DSRV has the capability to rescue personnel from a distressed submarine (DISSUB) up to a depth of 650 m and it is the latest in terms of technology and capabilities. It has been designed and supplied to meet unique requirements of our submarines by M/s James Fishes Defence, UK. We have ordered two Systems which shall be based on the West and East Coast of India respectively to provide redundancy, high operational availability and early response to deal with a submarine contingency.

The Rescue System has recently undergone extensive Sea Trials wherein many records have been set. Our DSRV dived to over 666 m, the Remote Operations Vehicle (ROV) dived to 750m and the Side Scan Sonar dived to 650m. Live undersea matings with different types of submarines along with transfer of personnel from submarine to DSRV has also been achieved, thereby simulating the submarine rescue.

With this capability, India has joined a select league of nations which have this unique capability and we are now in a position to not only provide rescue cover to our own submarines but also to other friendly nations in the IOR and beyond. Our vision is to emerge as a centre of regional excellence for Submarine Rescue Services in line with the stature of our great nation.

The DSRV is likely to be inducted in the Indian Navy by end of this year.



DKS/AC
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by maz »

tsarkar wrote:INS Rana refitted with Revathi radar and C-Pearl ESM/EW system taken from Godavari class frigate
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpT1-GHWwAEw9ni.jpg
I do not think that the EW system aboard the Rana is the C-Pearl nor was it taken from a G-class. The G-class had the SEWS V5 (which may be another name for C-Pearl) but the Rana's EW system antenna elements are different from a SEWS V5.

See another picture of the Rana at Jeju, Korea

Image

The cylindrical antenna is an ESM element - most likely an omni directional antenna - and it is mounted atop another triangular? shaped ESM antenna that appears to be braod band DF antenna that looks a lot like in service DRDO products. I think this is a brand new EW system. It could be the Varuna ESM and/ or Shakti EW system since there are at least two jammers.

Where did the Revathi come from? The Leander trials ship?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by maz »

Nice pix collection of of IN destroyers
https://www.spansen.com/2018/04/Destroy ... -Pics.html
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by John »

tsarkar wrote:INS Rana refitted with Revathi radar and C-Pearl ESM/EW system taken from Godavari class frigate
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpT1-GHWwAEw9ni.jpg
Interesting that they have not been fitted with Barak-1 yet and I don't believe SR SAM is intended for any Rajput class either.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by tsarkar »

maz wrote:
tsarkar wrote:INS Rana refitted with Revathi radar and C-Pearl ESM/EW system taken from Godavari class frigate
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpT1-GHWwAEw9ni.jpg
I do not think that the EW system aboard the Rana is the C-Pearl nor was it taken from a G-class. The G-class had the SEWS V5 (which may be another name for C-Pearl) but the Rana's EW system antenna elements are different from a SEWS V5.

See another picture of the Rana at Jeju, Korea

Image

The cylindrical antenna is an ESM element - most likely an omni directional antenna - and it is mounted atop another triangular? shaped ESM antenna that appears to be braod band DF antenna that looks a lot like in service DRDO products. I think this is a brand new EW system. It could be the Varuna ESM and/ or Shakti EW system since there are at least two jammers.

Where did the Revathi come from? The Leander trials ship?
Hello Maz!

C-Pearl is the ESM while SEWS is the ECM jammer suite. Both were fitted to Godavaris, Brahmaputras and last two Ranvijay class ships.

It looks like the C-Pearl on the other ships but the element is shorter. The Ellora ESM is boxy as seen on Kolkata & other classes.

Only ESM is mounted on top. The Jammers are mounted lower down.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ercise.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... utra-1.jpg

Revati is replacing obsolete MR-310U Angara and RAWL is replacing obsolete MP-500 Kliver in earlier 3 ships. They are new built radars.

We had a veterans day and I'll post some photos shortly.

Manish - I'll go through the videos and post my comments after Diwali, if its OK with you :-)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Manish_P »

You are welcome to do so anytime, Sir, no hurry at all.

Wish you, and all at BRF, a very happy Deepavali!

The confirmation of the Nuclear triad has made it a very happy one already :D
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Rakesh »

tsarkar wrote: To add, sharing a post I made 1-3-2016 here.
Thank you for the reply and for the subsequent replies to Manish as well. Very informative!
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Rakesh »

I have moved all Arihant discussions, to the Arihant thread. Please continue there. Thank You.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by barath_s »

tsarkar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:There are six SSNs right now, in the planning phase. But the high cost involved of maintaining an all SSN fleet requires the Navy to have SSKs as well. The Soryu has many advantages over the Type 209, Kilo and the Scorpene.

And India does require SSKs to defend from enemies in their littorals. And a SSK is inherently more silent than a SSN. It does not have the reach of a SSN, but that is not required of the SSK. In numerous exercises with Los Angeles Class boats, our Kilos have gotten the better of them every time. That is not because the Los Angeles Class is a bad vessel, but rather that the Kilo is much more quieter.

They do not call a Kilo boat, the black hole for nothing.
Correct. To add, sharing a post I made 1-3-2016 here -

Diesel Electric submarines are very silent when operating in electric batteries. However, speed is very less with batteries. So is endurance. When in transit, or recharging batteries, they are noisier. A DE submarine is a sniper of the deeps. But like every sniper, they're good when nearly motionless. They lose effectiveness when in motion.

Now, nuclear submarines are more noisier because of pumps circulating coolant and steam turbines. All nuclear submarines are capable of high speeds, its the ability to keep noise low at high speed that is critical.

So, for a nuclear submarine to deal with a DE submarine, it has to use active sonar and make high speed interceptor slash & run attacks. If it lingers, it'll be vulnerable to the sniping DE submarine. It also needs the high speed to outrun torpedoes. Even though it'll be noisy at high speeds, the DE submarine wont be able to catch up or keep up with it.

Which is why IN was not euphoric when IN Type 877EKM tracked a US Nuclear Submarine in restricted area in recent Malabar exercises. Had the area not been restricted, the nuclear submarine could've used active sonar over long range and attacked and ran. The DE submarine would not have the speed or endurance under those circumstances.
Diesel Electric submarines are useful for littoral defence; a few are built for extended range. AIP gives DE boats slightly longer endurance/range while submersed. The snorkel can also be used, but only from periscope depth. it renders the sub susceptible to detection in multiple ways.

Nuclear submarine reactors for the last 3 or 4 decades come with passive cooling/natural circulation features. This means that noisy pumps are not needed below a certain speed; the coolant pathways are optimized and thermal gradient drives flow from heat source lower down (reactor) to heat sink higher.. See the S5G reactor, the S8G reactor used in Ohio class, the S9G etc. Of course, one cannot speak for the Arihant's reactor; it is after all a 1st gen Indian one(though with russian consulting) and details may be classified. Above a certain speed/power, the pumps kick in

Thus nuclear reactors have acquired a lot of the characteristics of diesel electric submarines. Earlier nuclear powered submarines also had potential challenges that if they went into a clayey bottom and went silent, the intakes and struts could get covered up/stuck. However this is true of most other submarines also.
it has to use active sonar and make high speed interceptor slash & run attacks
Loud noise and active sonar are like a man flashing a bright torchlight in a dark room. They make him an obvious target for the other man waiting in the dark. This is a good way to get killed.

A diesel electric submarine cannot use its speed underwater to widen the circle where it might be and thereby escape. It cannot stay underwater for very long without surfacing. It cannot easily use speed underwater to get to where it's mission demands it should be, unless the mission comes to it (hence more useful for defence in littoral waters and in restricted box of an exercise)

A nuclear submarine can simply wait it out, move at slow but continuous speed to move out of the area or come back from a different direction, find appropriate layers of sea that don' mix as well - and can help hide any submarine to some extent (eg temp differences,salinity differences - thermoclines, or hope that the underwater geography- eg mountains or sea floor can mask some of the echo - more rare). Once the diesel is forced to come up and charge batteries, it can detect that noise and attack (though it must remain in near sonar contact for it). Or just leave it to other ASW units to detect and finish it off. The nuke can also slip away to perform it's other missions.

Nuclear attack submarine may detect when a ballistic submarine has come to missile launch depth and is making preparations to do so; and then use high speed sprint to get there and hopefully kill the ballistic submarine before it ends civilization. (ie either before the first nuclear missile launch if lucky,or a later one if good)

Submarines can also use the intermittent sprint and then hide approach - eg sprint under cover of noise or to get out of the kill zone/widen search area and then creep/stay - only to pick up speed when your risk of detection is minimal again. Obviously nuke and de will have different constraints, and situation with surface and planes will also change the trade-offs/actions

Situational awareness is the key in sub vs sub.

If you have excellent quieting measures, design,manufacture, operational excellence, and maintain passive sonar listening techniques,a modern western sub can be so quiet that it may not know that another is there (see the collision of the british and french ssbn submarines)

But if your passive sonar is better, or you are able to make more effective use of your equipment and of the sea conditions, or if your quieting is better - you have an advantage.


Generally the western nations that build nukes also have significant electronics(see sonar) and technological advantages. (ie If you are investing that much ,why not splurge for good sonar etc) The russians are not far behind. The first generations of chinese nukes are noisy, but the latest generation is supposed to be good and be able to use towed array sonar etc...India - we won't know; we're hardly likely to get an unbiased/objective picture in open sources now.

You can try to use high speed and active sonar - eg if time is of the essence, but can you outrun a torpedo aimed at you ?

You don't get super excited about DE kills in exercises, because in exercises, the rules are known up front. There is a restricted area and thus you can get your kills in - in exercises everybody kills each other. Swedish,Australian,Soviet, and British boats have 'killed' US carriers.But equally, you don't know how often the sub hs been killed back]
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by tsarkar »

barath_s wrote:but can you outrun a torpedo aimed at you?
Yes
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by barath_s »

tsarkar wrote:
barath_s wrote:but can you outrun a torpedo aimed at you?
Yes
Maybe you an outrun the 35knot FC17 torpedo designed in 1971 and used on the Agosta class subs

How about the 80 knot royal navy spearfish torpedo, meant to take out the high speed Alfa submarines ?

Or >65 knot max Yu-6 chinese torpedo reverse engineered from the USMk 48. (itself > 55 knot )

You just have to dodge Russia's supercavitating 200 knot Shkval (not very maneouvrable,not very likely to be used against India)

But seeing as the fastest submarine was the 40-45 knot (in short bursts) Alfa; and more nuke subs are in the range of 0-35 knots....


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by John »

barath_s wrote:How about the 80 knot royal navy spearfish torpedo, meant to take out the high speed Alfa submarines ?
80 knot speed greatly reduces its range so this gets back to similar debate about the SAM range in tail chase mode. Sure the torpedo can catch up to the submarine but to do that the torpedo has to be fired at much closer range rather than max firing range. Not to mention it will also be more susceptible to decoy and easier to detect while traveling at a higher speed.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by barath_s »

Amusement factor aside, it would depend on the mission and other factors.

Torpedoes are indeed faster than submarines, but range matters and a nuke sub has unlimited range and energy while a torpedo does not.

If you know the range of your opponent's torpedoes you could use your speed to get into range, fire and move out, hopefully before you are targeted and that your weapon ranges are greater than or equal to theirs. Extreme range can reduce probability of kill in some situations (eg chase, maneuver, guidance cut, countermeasures). And unlike fighters, E-M theory doesn't work well the same way, you don't transfer all that much energy to your own torpedoes by.speeding.

The point being that if you are a nuke and adopt these tactics, you have abandoned your natural advantages of endurance for this risk.

You might do it if you are preventing a boomer from ending civilization. You might do it if you have to get rid of the DE sub because time is a factor - if the de sub is in the way of the fleet you are escorting or you have to make a rendezvous - eg for picking up special forces etc.

But this also begs the question - how did you know the de sub was there in the first place. Or Why not simply evade and continue on. Or how do you know there aren't two or different opponents....Or...

Each of which might be the right answer in a particular situation..

And mutual kill can also happen. Which tends to be a bad trade-off for the guy encashing his nuke for an opposing dE sub
Last edited by barath_s on 09 Nov 2018 15:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Singha »

The slash n run tactics cannot mimic that of a aircraft before high azimuth radar or rf datalink is not present to update the running torpedo

When do you cut the guidance wire and turn n burn in the ssn?

If not Immediately the target sub will detect your torp and fire back down same axis as we often see in films torps crossing each other in middle of a shootout

Its a tougher game underwater imo
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by barath_s »

Agree it's tougher underwater. In fact,there has only been 1 underwater sub-to-sub kill in history. radar is attenuated, as are lasers and other communication, energy-maneovrability theory doesn't apply as much...

Torpedoes differ, many have full capabilities such as active sonar,search modes etc of their own. But it's slightly easier to spoof a torpedo than a torpedo+its submarine with expert crew and additional systems. Multiple torpedoes may be slightly more challenging.

And actually if you have wire guidance, you might prefer using the torp's active sonar (and seeing what it sees) to using your own , if it comes to it.

Of course, the question is - does the mission warrant this kind of risk ?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Post by Katare »

You shouldn’t fire your torpedo until the target is within no escape zone of it. In this case a target can’t out run a torpedo.

If its fired in marginal zones of engagement a fast ship would have a shot at out ranging the torpedo.

Torpedoes have roughly twice the speed of ship’s top speed which is same as AAM and fighter aircrafts.

So largely same tactics and limitation would apply.
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