Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 12 Apr 2020 02:51

The Arihiant is supposed to cost some 500 billion dollars (about double the cost of Kilos). But most of the components are made in India and also it is in a different class when it comes to capability. Would it not be better to invest in such boats? Imagine the awesome threat a dozen or 2 would project. They can stay submerged for 3 months and are very difficult to detect.

John · Post by **John** » 12 Apr 2020 03:15

Rishirishi wrote:The Arihiant is supposed to cost some 500 billion dollars (about double the cost of Kilos). But most of the components are made in India and also it is in a different class when it comes to capability. Would it not be better to invest in such boats? Imagine the awesome threat a dozen or 2 would project. They can stay submerged for 3 months and are very difficult to detect.

You mean 500 million? There is no cost breakdown for Arihant but overall investment in ATV program is around 1.2 lakh crores and planned SSN is estimated to cost around 20,000 crores each. So it's far more than a Kilo.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 12 Apr 2020 03:25

The Lithium ion technology as an obvious choice for battery was considered by many nations / submarine builders but subsequently rejected.

All countries feel AIP Technology is the way forward.

Lithium ion technology has following disadvantages:

- It is sensitive to overcharging / undercharging, a very common operational mode on a submarine. Circuit protectors and very close control of current and voltages are apparently required.

- It ages very rapidly

- It can do limited no. of charge - discharge cycles, like 500 to 1000. (if a submarine completely discharges battery after 3 days, we are talking about a battery life of 4-5 years.)

- It is prone to shorting and is a fire hazard.

- I once heard from some gyanis that the factory required to build lithium batteries is very harmful to the environment.

Hence, even countries which build/use more lithium ion batteries than India (for consumer goods), such as China, Germany and France dont use it.

Japan is the odd man out.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 12 Apr 2020 07:06

Battery tech is increasing by leaps and bounds. Lots of R&D in this space. Addition of commercial solid state design by samsung and Imec is pretty huge.

Expect batteries to double in density and stability by 2X every 5 years. That is all we must plan for at the moment. Change it every 5 years. Design it in such a way that you don't have to cut open parts of the boat to replace things around.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... gy-density

https://www.electronicdesign.com/market ... -batteries

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Apr 2020 12:46

I am for the Kilo deal for the following if we can

1. We already use Exide Lead acid batteries in them, it will be great if we replace them with Indigenous Lithium ION Batteries
2. We use the Indigenous USHUS sonar, we can hopefully add DRDO ALTAS to these Hulls
3 Integrate Varunastra Torpedos in them.
4. Easier to intergrate Brahmos NG
4. See whether for 1 of these Boats at HSL or elsewhere add a section to integrate DRDO Fuel cell system like we are going to add to Scorpenes.

We should also look forward a few more Scorpenes to keep the MDL line running before we can move on produce the P-75 which will take at least 10 years from today to enter service. 6 Scorpenes + 4 HDW 209 + 6 Kilos(out of the 8 existing 10-1 sold to Mynammar and 1 lost to Mumbai port accident) existing or in pipeline plus a few more Scorpenes and a few more Kilos can keep our Diesel SSK/SSP fleet going.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Apr 2020 05:27

Manish_Sharma wrote:If navy decides to buy a set of submarines today it will be inducted my 2025 to 2030 and used upto 2055 to 2060, for that period kilos would be Stone age platform, we need something like this. To be relevant in 2055:

There are two requirements;

1) Urgent build up the sub fleet
2) Long term need with state of the art, next generation sub tech.

What the IN needs more importantly NOW is fulfilling Point 1 than fulfilling Point 2. Is three additional Scorpenes and three Type 636.3 or six Type 636.3 boats going to transform the IN's submarine fleet? More than likely, NO. It will however increase the number of boats available at any given point in time. Make no mistake, neither the Scorpene or the Type 636.3 are any slouches. Both are fairly potent platforms and that too very quiet. They are more than enough for the IN's short term needs i.e. the next 20 years.

No point in acquiring the first Project 75I boat in 2030, when the Indian Ocean will be littered with Pak and Chinese boats. At that point, likely none of the 8+1 Kilo boats or the Type 209 boats in service now will be worthwhile. They will be on their way out. By 2030, the oldest Kilo boat will be 44 years old and so will the oldest Type 209 vessel. Both were commissioned in 1986. The IN's first ever submarine - the Kalvari - was retired when she was 29 years old. The seven other vessels in the class (but not all) hit around a max age of 36 - 37 years before retiring.

Project 75I should fulfill the requirement of the second area. Lessons learnt from Scorpene building, next generation Lithium ION batteries, updated variants of Varunastra torpedoes, newer models of the USHUS sonar, BrahMos NG, etc can be incorporated.

Invest the (little) available money now in shoring up the numbers and then look towards the future. Later towards the end of this decade, invest the money into the P75I program. But shore up the numbers now, so the IN's only sub fleet is not just six Scorpene Class boats by 2030. And there will be one Akula boat as well in 2030. But that is it. The Arihant Class cannot be counted in that list, as she performs a different task. And not a single SSN (from the planned six SSN fleet) will be ready in 2030. 6+1 boats in 2030 is pathetic considering India's long coastline and her blue water aspirations.

When the Scorpene deal was signed in Oct 2005, who could have predicted that the first vessel would be commissioned only in 2017? Twelve years to commission a SSK? And with this track record in ship building, the Navy is expecting to commission the first P75I vessel before 2030? Like really?

I say again - sign a deal for 3 Scorpenes and 3 Type 636.3 boats this year and I can guarantee all six boats in service before the end of this decade. By 2030, you want the IN to operate 9 Scorpenes and 3 Type 636.3 boats (so 12 boats in all) or you want the IN to operate just six boats? And if the French play hardball on 3 additional Scorpenes, just go with the Russians for six new boats.

Same scenario for IAC 2 as well. As per the Navy's own admission, it will take 15 years for the vessel to arrive...if the sanction is given today. I will add another 5 years to that. So by 2040. Till then, the IN will have the Vikrant and the Vikramaditya. Good luck!

And yet again, the same scenario for the MMRCA deal as well. Waste of time and waste of FOREX these white elephant projects are. Add to the existing (but improved) capability versus adding a new type. That is what is most urgent now.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Apr 2020 05:47

There are six Type 636.3 boats under construction (in various stages) RIGHT NOW in Russia.

All six are destined for the Russian Navy. Seven boats were commissioned earlier (from a 13 build program) and are in service with the Russian Navy. The eighth vessel is due for commissioning in November 2020. That is like 7 months away. Time for PM Modi to call President Putin on speed dial. And if diplomacy does not work, then give an order for another six...on top of the six that is being built now for the Russian Navy. The Russian shipyard is churning them out (like pancakes at IHOP - name of Amreeki restaurant chain) at the rate of one boat every 2 - 3 years.

Substitute the Ka-226 deal for this and give the light helicopter contract to HAL for the Light Utility Helicopter. I can wish can't I?

Spend the (little) available money now on wise purchases, rather that entertain useless nonsenses like Ka-226 and three used Kilos.

And the best part ---> you will not even hear a peep from the opposition over this, unlike the so-called Rafale scam.

Shiny new platform = SCAM. Boosting numbers of an already inducted platform = no votes during election.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 13 Apr 2020 13:10

Rakesh, building program of 12, not 13. 7 are commissioned (6 in Black Sea, one in Far East), 3 are under construction and further 2 are contracted with keel laying in November 2020. But you are correct on construction speed, all three boats under construction will be commissioned in 2020-2021, with the fifth and sixth hull ready by the end of 2022.

mody · Post by **mody** » 13 Apr 2020 14:05

Aditya_V wrote:I am for the Kilo deal for the following if we can

1. We already use Exide Lead acid batteries in them, it will be great if we replace them with Indigenous Lithium ION Batteries
2. We use the Indigenous USHUS sonar, we can hopefully add DRDO ALTAS to these Hulls
3 Integrate Varunastra Torpedos in them.
4. Easier to intergrate Brahmos NG
4. See whether for 1 of these Boats at HSL or elsewhere add a section to integrate DRDO Fuel cell system like we are going to add to Scorpenes.

We should also look forward a few more Scorpenes to keep the MDL line running before we can move on produce the P-75 which will take at least 10 years from today to enter service. 6 Scorpenes + 4 HDW 209 + 6 Kilos(out of the 8 existing 10-1 sold to Mynammar and 1 lost to Mumbai port accident) existing or in pipeline plus a few more Scorpenes and a few more Kilos can keep our Diesel SSK/SSP fleet going.

That's exactly what I have been saying, but the only other considerations to be considered re the price and the delivery time. $1.8 Billion for three of these old hulls and reconditioning of our existing 3 old subs, sounds too much.

mody · Post by **mody** » 13 Apr 2020 14:31

Given the current economic scenario, it would be miracle if can go ahead with the P75I project and can start the induction of the subs by 2030.
What we need to do instead is to analyse where we stand as far as building our own SSKs is concerned. We have achieved reasonable expertise in number of areas. We should just try to get the missing pieces.
For a diesel-electric submarine, I would say our current status would allow for the below list:

1). We have the hull designs of the Scorpene and the drawings and design for the Shishukumar class. We have the expertise in fabricating the hulls of submarines, from the scorpene project and the Arihant class. We also have the required raw material available in house from DMRL. We can start off the construction of the first submarine, using the same raw material, as used for the Scorpene class. We are also trying to develop better high nitrogen steel, that can be used for future submarines.
2). For sonars, we have the choice between our own USHUS sonar as used on the Kilo class, the French sonar on the scorpene or the german sonar on the Shishukumar class. We can take our pick. If the performance of the French sonar is found to be better than the USHUS and justifies the extra cost, go with it. If not, we can stick with the USHUS and look to develop the same further. If the experience with the German sonar is good, we can also take a look at the latest offering from TKMS.
3). We now have the heavy weight torpedoes in house in the Varunastra and the L&T developed torpedo launch module of the sub. From the looks of the module, it seems to have been designed for a Kilo class type of sub, but maybe we can adapt it for use with any kind of hull design.
This means the entire forward section of the sub, comprising of the sonar section and the torpedo launch complex, can be built inhouse, without any external help. Maybe the sonar maybe imported, if required, as mentioned above.
4). We have our own batteries for the subs, that we use on the Kilo class or we can look to import the batteries. Multiple sources exists and maybe in the future, the battery technology with Lithium-ion or Lithium-polymer batteries, will make the need for AIP modules redundant.
5). We have the quietening technics from the Scorpene project. The internal quietening done for the scorpene is supposed to be fairly good.
6). The main machinery can be imported from TKMS or Naval Group. We can make our own propeller design from a combination of the Scorpene and Shishukumar designs or get the design for the propeller and the rudder from TKMS or Naval Group. This would mean that we would need foreign help for the entire aft section of the sub, comprising the main machinery and the propeller and rudder.
7). The DRDO developed AIP module is almost ready and the shore based prototype is ready. It should get ready to put on a sub, within 2-3 years time. It does not need to be the best in the world. If it can improve the endurance of the submarine, as compared to non-AIP subs, then it's a good enough to start with. We are planning to put it on the scorpene anyways. We can use the same for the first batch of upto 4 or 6 subs. Later we can evaluate further development of our AIP technology or newer battery technology in the form of Lithium-Ion or Lithium-Polymer batteries.
8]. Some torpedo counter measure systems, we already have.
9). The towed array sonar system is coming along as part of the DRDO ALTAS project. If it doesn't succeed, then we can look to import the same.
10). The rest of the electronics, the periscope and combat management systems etc. can be imported, for the 1st batch of 6 subs. The level of automation in the scorpene class is fairly good. We can look to develop our own for further subs, after the first batch of 6.
11). For the second batch, we can look to incorporate 8 VLS cells for the Brahmos-NG or Nirbhay missiles. Both of these missiles can also be launched from torpedo tubes, but would probably reduce the number of torpedoes that the sub can carry.

Getting different pieces from different sources might make the project complicated to begin with and the first 2 subs might take longer to build, but once it succeeds, we will be well on our way designing and building our own SSK subs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Apr 2020 18:22

SNaik wrote:Rakesh, building program of 12, not 13. 7 are commissioned (6 in Black Sea, one in Far East), 3 are under construction and further 2 are contracted with keel laying in November 2020. But you are correct on construction speed, all three boats under construction will be commissioned in 2020-2021, with the fifth and sixth hull ready by the end of 2022.

Dear Sir,

Wiki Chacha says a build program of 13 ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-clas ... 36.3_units

• Six are in the Black Sea Fleet ---> 1] Novorossiysk; 2] Rostov-on-Don; 3] Stary Oskol; 4] Krasnoda; 5] Velikiy Novgorod; and 6] Kolpino.

• Six will be in the Pacific Fleet ---> 7] Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky (in service); 8] Volkhov (in trials); 9] Magadan (in trials); 10] Ufa (under construction); 11] Mozhaysk (ordered); and 12] Un-Named Boat

A 13th vessel is reportedly ordered for the Black Sea Fleet. And wiki gets it from this article....

Russian Navy to Keep Building Kilo-Class Subs After ‘Pacific Series’
http://mil.today/2019/Industry9/
25 Nov 2019

Please confirm if the above info is wrong.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Apr 2020 23:39

mody wrote:That's exactly what I have been saying, but the only other considerations to be considered re the price and the delivery time. $1.8 Billion for three of these old hulls and reconditioning of our existing 3 old subs, sounds too much.

$1.8 Billion is what Vietnam paid for six brand new Type 636.1 hulls.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/vi ... ore-05396/

“According to the Vedomosti business daily, Moscow and Hanoi are close to sign deals on the purchase of six Kilo class diesel-electric submarines and 12 Su-30MK2 Flanker-C multirole fighters. The submarine contract, worth an estimated $1.8 billion, includes the construction of on-shore infrastructure and training of submarine crews and will be the second largest submarine contract concluded by Russia since the Soviet era after the 2002 deal on the delivery of eight subs to China.”

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Apr 2020 00:41

Those arguing for Li-ion batteries instead of AIP need to realize that both Japan and SoKo already have companies with access to cutting edge Li-ion battery design and manufacturing. We have none. What we do have is the DRDO designed fuel-cell AIP and while it may be arguably "inferior" to using Li-ion batteries instead which is the new in-thing, it is extremely important for us to spend time and money to integrate, productionize and operationalize it on our Scorpenes. We can't afford to give up on that as a technology demonstrator and lust after the newest tech on the block. A bird in hand etc. etc.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Apr 2020 03:48

Lockdown brings construction of Indigenous Aircraft Carrier to a halt in Kochi
https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities ... 23197.html
30 March 2020

According to sources in Cochin Shipyard, all the construction activities have been stopped due to the lockdown and precautions taken as part of Covid-19 outbreak. “As most of the workers and engineers come from outside, the construction activities, including that of IAC, have been put on hold temporarily. It would be a difficult task to meet the target of April to start sea trial. However, some of the essential services in the shipyard are still going on,” a source said.

However, another official said that the IAC project will not be delayed due to lockdown. “The current lockdown will have no impact on a long-term project like IAC. We can meet the deadline by arranging overtime work. With three-four hours of overtime work, the time loss can be covered easily. We expect to complete the work and conduct the sea trial in the next few months,” he said.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Apr 2020 08:34

Can you see the silver dots on the Kolpino's screw around the centre shaft? They are very valuable,made of solid silver meant to degrade over time, protecting other metallic material used in the whole assembly. The cruciform device on the shaft is meant to improve the wake of the screw.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Apr 2020 11:58

Regarding Lion or Fuel Cell, we should try to have both where fuel cell power, is it possible to fuel cell system to charge the Li-on's, giving us SSP's which are relatively compact with Huge range and ultra silent.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 14 Apr 2020 15:16

Rakesh wrote: Wiki Chacha says a build program of 13 ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-clas ... 36.3_units

• Six are in the Black Sea Fleet ---> 1] Novorossiysk; 2] Rostov-on-Don; 3] Stary Oskol; 4] Krasnoda; 5] Velikiy Novgorod; and 6] Kolpino.

• Six will be in the Pacific Fleet ---> 7] Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky (in service); 8] Volkhov (in trials); 9] Magadan (in trials); 10] Ufa (under construction); 11] Mozhaysk (ordered); and 12] Un-Named Boat

A 13th vessel is reportedly ordered for the Black Sea Fleet. And wiki gets it from this article....

Russian Navy to Keep Building Kilo-Class Subs After ‘Pacific Series’
http://mil.today/2019/Industry9/
25 Nov 2019

Please confirm if the above info is wrong.

Sir, there are 12 boats contracted so far. Will there be further contracts is to be seen, much depends on available finances. Admiral's wish list may be a long one. Black Sea has just got 6 brand new boats an definitely is not a priority right now.

Volhov is in yard trials, Magadan and Ufa are still in construction.

Wiki is a fine source for links, not for accuracy

but you can have it as a starting point.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Apr 2020 15:30

I checked the news report regarding the proposed offer of Kilo class boats from Russia and examining the report in detail the following facts emerge.

The proposal is a 3+3 offer. i.e 3 Indian boats that entered service in 1999 to 2002 will be upgraded with SLEP of 10 years and the Russians will add 3 boats of the Russian navy to at a proposed price of between 1.8 to 2 billion US dollars.

After MiG-29 jets, India mulling offer of refurbished submarines from Russia?

Excerpt form the article

"The entire package—dubbed 'three plus three'—has reportedly been priced at $1.8-2 billion," Jane's Defence Weekly reported. An agreement was expected to be formalised at a meeting of Russian and Indian officials in Goa in March, which was cancelled on account of the coronavirus outbreak. The submarines on offer from Russia are reportedly ships that are about 30-years-old.

Draw your own conclusions.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Apr 2020 17:58

SNaik wrote:Sir, there are 12 boats contracted so far. Will there be further contracts is to be seen, much depends on available finances. Admiral's wish list may be a long one. Black Sea has just got 6 brand new boats an definitely is not a priority right now.

Volhov is in yard trials, Magadan and Ufa are still in construction.

Wiki is a fine source for links, not for accuracy but you can have it as a starting point.

Thank you Sir for confirming the info. Greatly appreciated.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Apr 2020 18:44

Pratyush wrote:The proposal is a 3+3 offer. i.e 3 Indian boats that entered service in 1999 to 2002 will be upgraded with SLEP of 10 years and the Russians will add 3 boats of the Russian navy to at a proposed price of between 1.8 to 2 billion US dollars.

Only one Kilo entered service between the time period of 1999 - 2002. She is the Sindhurashtra and was commissioned in 2000.

All the other nine boats were commissioned between the time period from 1986 to 1997.

Reportedly the three Indian Kilos (that are to be modernized) are;

Indian solutions for ensuring rapid replenishment of existing underwater forces
https://portalstoczniowy.pl/wiadomosci/ ... odwodnych/

In addition, Russia offers the modernization of an additional three Kilo currently in use by India. Indian sources have reported that the modernized ships in Russia are to be the three youngest ships of this type: INS Sindhukirti (S61), INS Sindhuvijay (S62) and INS Sindhurashtra (S64). Interestingly, the first of them has already been modernized in India and the second in Russia, only the third youngest remains in its original version. Perhaps the contract, instead of S62, concerns INS Sindhudhvaj (S56) which has also never been modernized and such an option seems logical. In turn, the presence in the proposed three of the second previously modernized ship (S61) may be related to the handover of one of Kilo's owned Myanmar navy planned by the Indians . The ship is INS Sindhuvir (S58), which is being transferred to a new owner after modernization in India.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 14 Apr 2020 19:22

Pratyush wrote:I checked the news report regarding the proposed offer of Kilo class boats from Russia and examining the report in detail the following facts emerge.

The proposal is a 3+3 offer. i.e 3 Indian boats that entered service in 1999 to 2002 will be upgraded with SLEP of 10 years and the Russians will add 3 boats of the Russian navy to at a proposed price of between 1.8 to 2 billion US dollars.

After MiG-29 jets, India mulling offer of refurbished submarines from Russia?

Excerpt form the article

"The entire package—dubbed 'three plus three'—has reportedly been priced at $1.8-2 billion," Jane's Defence Weekly reported. An agreement was expected to be formalised at a meeting of Russian and Indian officials in Goa in March, which was cancelled on account of the coronavirus outbreak. The submarines on offer from Russia are reportedly ships that are about 30-years-old.
Draw your own conclusions.

There are only two Indian Kilo's which haven't received an upgrade already - S56 Sindhudhvaj and S65 Sindhurashstra. I wonder which one is going to be the third and what upgrades she will receive.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Apr 2020 18:55

Reg. AIP systems.There are sev. options going on at the moment.Lithium battery cells,reusing diesel fuel ( reformer) in Ru and our DRDO system.Mesma and Stirling are considered less effective than German fuel cell systems. Whichever system becomes or is evaluated as being the most practical for the IN could be adopted.Replacing our old U-209s with new German AIP U-boats to replace the Scorpenes ( middling tech now,not cutting edge now,plus data leak compromised, and non- AIP the lot).

The advantage with the Kilo upgrades will be Kalibir capability,not available on any of the western subs,plus existing Klub missiles with Mach 3+ terminal homing warheads that give v.little reaction time.In the future BMos- NG will be fitted as well. The Kilo double hulls are v.tough and have years of service left inthem.With over 70 built, Ru churning them out at a rate of one in just 2 years,logistics for spares,etc. will be v.easy as we already operate 9 subs at the moment,one going to Burma.

Ru hypersonic Tsirkon missiles are shortly to be tested from rhe Adm.Gorshkov FFG and a Yasen class SSGN. they will be unstoppable even to AEGIS which needs 8 seconds of time to start functioning.It will be touch and go for Mach 3.0 incomings like BMos which give a defender only between 10 to 15 seconds to react. Once BMos- H appears,the Kilos would carry even more devastating ordnance.

The points raised by many,Adm.Rakesh for one about our ability to build conv. subs at speed,is spot on. We may operate 2+ Akulas at least as the second one being upgraded will most likely have new VLS cells and other features being fitted to the latest Ru attack boats capable of carrying Kalibir,Tsirkon, Onix/ BMos, etc.
Our desi SSN will take around a decade to build,complete trials and enter service.We will need a few N-boats for the current decade and 3 to 4 upgraded Akulas are the ideal solution. They can serve us for at least 20+ years.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 17 Apr 2020 19:55

Philip wrote:Ru hypersonic Tsirkon missiles are shortly to be tested from rhe Adm.Gorshkov FFG and a Yasen class SSGN. they will be unstoppable even to AEGIS which needs 8 seconds of time to start functioning.It will be touch and go for Mach 3.0 incomings like BMos which give a defender only between 10 to 15 seconds to react. Once BMos- H appears,the Kilos would carry even more devastating ordnance.

Since it was off-topic for this thread, I've replied in the International naval thread -

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2428087#p2428087

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 18 Apr 2020 14:08

21 Indian Navy personnel test positive for Covid-19, several feared infected on INS Angre

No operational Ships or Submarines impacted according to sources.

Aggressive testing for COVID19 Underway. Affected sailors have been quarantined at INSH Ashwini.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/coronavirus-among-indian-navy-sailors-many-test-positive-1668259-2020-04-18

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2020 01:45

https://twitter.com/ThingNavy/status/12 ... 94530?s=20 ----> INS Karanj

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2020 01:48

https://twitter.com/ThingNavy/status/12 ... 44353?s=20 ---> RGB-60

John · Post by **John** » 28 Apr 2020 02:30

^ That is almost a decade old news? There was an extended version in development of RGB-60 .

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Ti ... 576638.ece

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 May 2020 10:50

If you look carefully at the pitiful few pics of the Arihant,you'll notice that the tiles on the sail look roughish,not smooth.Prhaps replicating the skin of a marine species,whale perhaps? The irregular texture to the tiles would possibly trap
Sonar waves reflected,allowing less to bounce back.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 08 May 2020 19:35

Perhaps this might not be strictly appropriate to this thread from a military POV per se, but still felt that it is definitely worth a mention

The Indian Navy helping the nation in fighting the war against the COVID19 chinese virus

Low-cost PPE made by Indian Navy clears tests for mass production

Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) designed and produced by Indian Navy has received certification for mass production and be used in clinical COVID-19 situations. The PPEs have been tested by INMAS (Institute of Nuclear Medicine and Allied Sciences) Delhi, a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) organisation tasked with the testing and certification of PPE.

The PPE is required to meet a set of criteria on testing and the benchmarks of the same are set by the Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) and the Ministry of Health and Family Welfare, Government of India.

The cost for this PPE is significantly lower than those commercially available.

A team formed by the Innovation Cell, Institute of Naval Medicine, Mumbai and the Naval Dockyard, Mumbai collaborated to design and produce PPE. The PPE passed with 6/6 Synthetic blood penetration resistance test pressure. Government mandates a minimum 3/6 and above level as per ISO 16603 standard. .

“The outstanding features of the PPE are its simple, innovative and cost-effective design; thus it can be made by basic gown manufacturing facilities. The PPE is noteworthy for the innovative choice of fabric used, which gives the PPE its 'breathability' and penetration resistance rendering it both comfortable and safe for the user,” as per a release.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 09 May 2020 04:53

So far we have PPE units developed by OFB Ambernath, Indian Navy and Indian Railways that i have read about. I am sure there are even more PSU's and defence units which are developing these kits. Can at least there be an effort of all these Units to standardize on a design to enable fast cheap and easy mass production?

dkhare · Post by **dkhare** » 11 May 2020 22:04

An excellent pictorial walk down memory lane for Indian Navy Harriers by Harpreet @CestMoiz in this twitter thread:
https://twitter.com/CestMoiz/status/1259847964471803905

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 May 2020 22:16

Excellent find! Wow...beautiful pictures. Thank You.

dkhare · Post by **dkhare** » 11 May 2020 23:05

No thanks necessary. A long time ago, BR Image Galleries used to be the go to source (if not the only source) for any images of Indian military equipment. I guess legalese, permissions and other issues prevents BR from hosting these images anymore.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 May 2020 23:15

You are correct.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 May 2020 16:27

https://twitter.com/ThingNavy/status/12 ... 51265?s=20 ---> Inside INS Kalvari

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 15 May 2020 16:51

looks very TFTA..are first and last images on a touchscreen?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 May 2020 19:04

KILLERS VERSION 2.0: CARRYING FORWARD THE ILLUSTRIOUS LEGACY

The Killers 2.0 were not only worthy successors to their illustrious predecessors, but have also kept the glorious legacy alive with their professional excellence, panache, resoluteness and a ‘can do’ spirit.

May 15, 2020
Cmde Srikant B Kesnur

KILLERS VERSION

When we were commissioned in the mid-eighties the Osa class Killer Boats were the stuff of legend. They would be nestling together, usually at the Barrack wharf or the Cruiser wharf, and one spoke reverentially about their hallowed past. We also admired their squadron culture which engendered a feeling of loyalty among all Killers and envied the fact that their in-living officers stayed in Command Mess, then the Mecca for all bachelors. However, even then, it was becoming clear that they were getting on in age and, while they were coping with it gracefully, the signs were visible. While the josh was high, obsolescence along with limited sea legs and suboptimal habitability meant that the Navy needed a newer generation of missile boats — one that carried the spirit of the pioneers but were more contemporary in design and warfighting abilities.

The Naval Headquarters paying heed to this need decided on the Soviet Tarantul class missile corvettes as the replacement. These came to be known as the 1241 RE after the project or the Veer class (for a while) in India after the first one to be so commissioned in March 1987. Nirbhik, Nipat, Nishank and Nirghat followed INS Veer in quick succession. It must be remembered that the period between 1985 and 1990 was a particularly important one with regard to our hardware and platforms as the Navy practically had a new inventory. The last two SNFs, the last two G class, the aircraft carrier Viraat, Khukri class, LST M, Magar, the EKM and SSKs, the TU 142s, the 1241 REs and PEs, almost all of them were inducted into the service in this half decade plus. So, it was an exciting time to be in the Navy and to be young in it was very heaven (with apologies to William Wordsworth). Thus, in early 1989, when we were doing our PCT for minesweepers in Kochi many of our course mates were selected as the Commissioning crew of Nishank and Nirghat and as the first change crew for the first three ships.

Suddenly, the “balance of power” had shifted and the REs were the new queens of the ramp. To be selected as their crew was prestigious and we were, understandably, envious. Of course, most of those selected were ‘hotshots’ and it seemed that the best talent was being earmarked for these ships. The earlier OSA class of the 25th Killer Squadron continued to serve with distinction — in fact the last of them were decommissioned in the first decade of this century — but it was clear that it was now the 22nd Killer Squadron or 22 KS where the action was. For officers of my and subsequent generations, it is the Killers 2.0 that have been more visible, more operational and occupying a bigger space in our mindscape. And now, as they too have begun to be retired from service, with few of them decommissioned already, it is perhaps right to doff our caps in tribute to them.

It may seem ironical coming from a man who has never served on the Veer class ships — my closest brush with the REs was when there were galley packets in Vizag of my being appointed as K 22 after my tenure as CO Jalashwa; they were just as quickly dismissed by the originator of the rumours on the grounds that as I had not served on them earlier I was not qualified to be the ‘Kay’. I felt that this Catch-22 situation was unfair and in any case no fault of mine but one has no way of dispelling such gossip or machinations where people on the field plan appointments and transfers blissfully unknown to the P branch. But, on balance, it may be just right that someone who is not a ‘Killer cowboy’ writes about these ships because it would seem impartial and without bias. In the 25 to 30 years that they have served the Navy and nation it would be fair to say that the 22nd Killer squadron ships have a rich catalogue of achievements. While the country has fortunately not seen a full-fledged war since 1971, our volatile neighbourhood has necessitated several war-ready deployments, most particularly during Op Vijay (Kargil) in 1999 and Op Parakram in 2002.

On both these occasions many of my contemporaries were in Command or XOs, so one got a feel of readiness and adrenaline flowing through these ships. I am also sure that on several other occasions in the early nineties when the security situation was fraught, later post-26/11, and more recently in the aftermath of terrorist attacks in Pathankot and Uri and our strikes in Balakot, as well as post abrogation of Article 370, when our western neighbour made threatening noises, the ships of this class would have been called to duty and first to respond. In fact, on account of their ideal mix of firepower, habitability, speed and flexibility these ships have been the first responders where maritime security imperatives have necessitated swift and commensurate deployment. One or two REs forward deployed in our areas of interest or ports to render both offensive punch and defensive assurance has provided force multiplier effect to our operational posture. In fact, it can well be said that these ships have played an invaluable part in sustaining peace and to keep the conflict possibilities below a certain threshold. While a latterday historian would undoubtedly ferret out the many and multisplendoured missions and activities of this squadron — there were 16 ships at their peak strength — it would be safe to surmise that they did much else besides providing terrific firepower and quick deployment options. I clearly remember that they were deployed to provide succour and relief in Gujarat after the massive earthquake in 2001 and did a stellar job. Despite their relatively limited sea legs they have also shown our flag at few places and they have been used in SAR/HADR missions too whenever such requirements arose. I vividly recollect the SAR for the Seaking that had crashed off Mumbai in 1990, my ship Alleppey was amongst the earliest at scene of action but one of the REs — either Nipat or Nirbhik — was already there and, in fact, the first one to locate the debris. One of the REs — Prahar — was also involved in the joint Navy-CG operation to capture the pirated ship Alondra Rainbow, in October 1999.

And this is simply a quick and random recollection. While this fact has not been given much credit, I also think that these ships did much for the Navy’s public diplomacy efforts. Since they gave us the options to deploy them at various small and minor ports, whether as part of our operational design or for testing OTR facilities or proving forward basing or for Navy week activities, they, naturally, were visited by government officials, port authorities, local media, citizens and the aam aadmi and thus developed a natural affinity with the ports visited and people there. This furthered awareness about Navy in these far-flung places. There were also several other things that these ships brought into the mix. I can think of three important ones. The first was that they incubated excellence and represented the very best of the Navy at the junior leadership level. To be selected as the CO of a 1241 RE as a Lt Cdr signified that you were the crème de la crème in your batch. Similarly, to be the XO or GO (fresh from Long G at Dronacharya as first appointment) or non-specialist NO or EO or LO on these ships meant you were ahead of the pack. This had a domino effect wherein anyone posted on these ships, even if not the topper variety now aspired and worked hard to get there.

Second, as a consequence of the above, these ships and officers always exhibited high levels of professionalism, derring-do and bonhomie. This peculiar alchemy of professional and personal attributes meant that these ships often punched above their weight be it in fleet exercises or sports fixtures. Despite the small size of their crew and minuscule number of officers, their versatility, josh and fierce sense of exceptionalism earned them many awards and kudos. This was particularly marked during exercises at sea with fleet ships when the station keeping or gunnery exercises or reactionex serials often found these little fellas besting their big bros. This was also seen in sharp focus when the FOCWEF and FOMA often were arranged on opposite sides of tactical exercises and the REs not only provided the latter with firepower but much frisson and chutzpah. Third, this also led to some valuable professional and operational inputs and advances. Most of the senior commissioning crew of the first few boats were those who had earlier done tenures on other Soviet ships. The REs added to their knowledge of the Ruski doctrines, tactics, SOPs.

This, in turn, contributed to the broad stream of understanding Russian Operational Art and consequently into integrating that with our own approach, largely derived from the British. While our tryst with the Russian hardware started in the late sixties, it could be argued that the integration of Russian, Western and Indian platforms, tactics, even traditions reached their peak in the late eighties and early nineties when we had adequate numbers in our inventory from all sources. The REs and their officers played a vital role in this, not least because the sixth ship (Vidyut) onwards were built in Indian shipyards on the Soviet design but with progressive improvements. The REs, thus, contributed a great deal to our Continuing Professional Education. They were also often the launch pads for innovation. The use of IGLA SAM to add to antiair capability is a case in instance and I am sure there are more that those who served on them will recollect. They also happened to be pioneers in network-centric operations in our Navy courtesy the tech innovations carried out by B.S. Ahluwalia, J.T. Mundekel and M.P. Anil Kumar — X officers all — which then worked as the template for the rest of our Navy.

A lot of this spirit and talent was also evident in the many Killer nights or in the fine annual journal ‘First Strike’ or in the conception of Light and Sound Show or in the maintenance of our heritage structures along the Caste Ramparts which was their den or the many in-house talks, seminars and workshops they used to conduct (now alas a fading tradition). And, above everything, the fierce Killer spirit that pervaded them all. It was as though they belonged to a separate breed. I know of at least one crew (Commissioning Crew INS Nirghat) that made it a point to get together every five years or so long after all of them had gone their separate ways. I guess the same spirit, in different manifestations, is present in every crew of every Killer boat from inception to the present. Thus, we can conclude that the Killers 2.0 were not only worthy successors to their illustrious predecessors but have kept the glorious legacy alive and vibrant with their professional excellence, panache, resoluteness and a ‘can do’ spirit that was the envy of their contemporaries in the service. Here is a loving toast, a salute and three cheers from an admiring outsider. And as the REs approach their sunset years, here is hoping that future generations and the next avatar of Killers maintain the brand equity of the Killers and leave behind even more lasting legacies.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 May 2020 21:33

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/126 ... 57381?s=20 ----> Chinese Navy Type-55: 112 VLS
Indian Navy Kolkata/Visakhapatnam Class: 48 (VLS+UVLM)
One thing I can't understand why Indian Navy ships carry less than Chinese counterpart. Meanwhile, the Arleigh Burke carries 96 VLS.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 99393?s=20 ----> Well, I have asked this question many times - and been told that they are absolutely sure about the capability of the MRSAM [Barak 8] and don't foresee a situation where they would expend the entire ordinance. As far as AShMs are concerned, 16 BrahMos is more than adequate.

https://twitter.com/AryaShreshtha1/stat ... 53376?s=20 ---> More than adequate for what sir?

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 56385?s=20 ----> The BrahMos? More than adequate in taking out any surface fleet or decimating a land based target. Its a Mach 2.8 missile with an S shaped terminal flight profile where it likely pulls well over 10-12G ... likely impossible to intercept.

Type 55 Destroyer (PLAN Navy)

Kolkata Class Destroyer

Arleigh Burke Class Destroyer

titash · Post by **titash** » 15 May 2020 23:12

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/126 ... 57381?s=20 ----> Chinese Navy Type-55: 112 VLS
Indian Navy Kolkata/Visakhapatnam Class: 48 (VLS+UVLM)
One thing I can't understand why Indian Navy ships carry less than Chinese counterpart. Meanwhile, the Arleigh Burke carries 96 VLS.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 99393?s=20 ----> Well, I have asked this question many times - and been told that they are absolutely sure about the capability of the MRSAM [Barak 8] and don't foresee a situation where they would expend the entire ordinance. As far as AShMs are concerned, 16 BrahMos is more than adequate.

https://twitter.com/AryaShreshtha1/stat ... 53376?s=20 ---> More than adequate for what sir?

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 56385?s=20 ----> The BrahMos? More than adequate in taking out any surface fleet or decimating a land based target. Its a Mach 2.8 missile with an S shaped terminal flight profile where it likely pulls well over 10-12G ... likely impossible to intercept.

Admiral-ji, a similar question was asked back in 1980 to the Royal Navy's Type 42 air defence destroyer. Batch-1 & 2 had one twin sea dart launcher on the forecastle with a magazine for 22 missiles. At this time, the USN's smaller destroyers carried a standard 40 round magazine for Tartar/SM-1-MR. The tongue in cheek response to "Why so few mijjiles?" was that it limits the size of the explosion when the magazine blows up after an AShM hits

The larger Batch-3 Type-42s however carried 37 missiles

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 15 May 2020 23:28

Strange that the same axiom doesn't carry over to the Air forces. Most fighter jocks would like their aircraft to carry as many AAMs as possible