Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6992
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 01 Feb 2019 05:25

John wrote:I am not fan of Scorpene but at this point i would vote for just simply buying 4-6 more to keep production line active rather wait another decade for P-75I to see fruition. I would not mind buying a few Kilos' as well.

I agree. Just to arrest the falling numbers, I would like to see three additional Scorpenes. Hopefully by the commissioning of the ninth Scorpene, the first P-75I will be on her way. I don't know how we could afford additional Scorpenes + 6 P75I boats. Perhaps the money is there.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6992
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 01 Feb 2019 05:28

Euronaval 2016: Saab demos A26 design


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6992
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 01 Feb 2019 05:29

Explained: How Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) Works!
https://defencyclopedia.com/2016/07/06/ ... aip-works/

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 65246
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2019 08:20

japan did bid the soryu class to australia and lost.
this is their chance for a quiet deal which is theirs to lose.
but with even the US2 in MRCA deal mode, I am not too sure.

probably some kind of scorpene2 or HDW will win this.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6992
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 01 Feb 2019 12:00

Japan Goes Back To The Future With Lithium-Ion Battery Powered Submarines
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/77 ... submarines

Chinmay
BRFite
Posts: 179
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 07:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Chinmay » 01 Feb 2019 12:04

The Soryus might come, even if its not a part of Project 75I.

This was reported sometime back here ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7652&p=2301645&hilit=japan#p2301645

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7968
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 01 Feb 2019 13:46

Rakesh wrote:Russia will never agree to putting BrahMos VLS plug on a Soryu Class though.

I prefer to see a BrahMos VLS plug on the upcoming six SSNs. Patrolling the Malacca Straits and the South China Sea.

Every now and then, ping the PLAN that we are in the area :)



Why Russian approval is required for putting brahmos on any submarine?

Arnt we supposed to own the IP rights to the design and the design of the vls.

Another matter that the vendor's willingness to mate the plug with their submarine.

John
BRFite
Posts: 1998
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 01 Feb 2019 19:25

Pratyush wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Russia will never agree to putting BrahMos VLS plug on a Soryu Class though.

I prefer to see a BrahMos VLS plug on the upcoming six SSNs. Patrolling the Malacca Straits and the South China Sea.

Every now and then, ping the PLAN that we are in the area :)



Why Russian approval is required for putting brahmos on any submarine?

Arnt we supposed to own the IP rights to the design and the design of the vls.

Another matter that the vendor's willingness to mate the plug with their submarine.

I believe we signed agreement were Russia will be consulted before integrating russian products (joint venture or imported) with other platforms. Someone can correct me.

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5029
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SBajwa » 01 Feb 2019 20:25

Rakesh wrote:Explained: How Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) Works!
https://defencyclopedia.com/2016/07/06/ ... aip-works/


Since snorkeling AIP submarines will be emitting diesel exhaust won't it be very easy to find them by enemy forces?

John
BRFite
Posts: 1998
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 01 Feb 2019 20:57

SBajwa wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Explained: How Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) Works!
https://defencyclopedia.com/2016/07/06/ ... aip-works/


Since snorkeling AIP submarines will be emitting diesel exhaust won't it be very easy to find them by enemy forces?

The whole idea of AIP is you don't run the engines and don't need to snorkel which as you highlighted can greatly increase your chance of being detected by not just exhaust but the snorkel can be detected by radar. There is however closed cycle AIP systems as the link highlighted which uses stored oxygen and scrub/vents the exhaust unless you referring to that? Since they carry oxygen they don't need to snorkel.

IMO the future is unmanned underwater vehicles operating from larger manned SSNs, I really don't think SSKs will exist couple decades down the road.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 65246
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2019 21:07

hardly 10 nations in gods earth can afford to build nuclear subs.

SSKs will remain just as feature phones will never die. a sort of poorer seat at the table , but a seat.

John
BRFite
Posts: 1998
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 01 Feb 2019 21:13

Singha wrote:hardly 10 nations in gods earth can afford to build nuclear subs.

SSKs will remain just as feature phones will never die. a sort of poorer seat at the table , but a seat.

IMO they will move to unmanned underwater vehicles i suppose they can be SSKs but will be unmanned :D with only few nations operations larger SSN ships.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 65246
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2019 21:51

subs offer the chance of great VFM - a cheap $1 million torpedo could sink a $1 billion DDG and deny large areas of sea to anyone.
thats a 1:1000 ratio

no other weapon offers that level of stealth and potential VFM. and that 1 sub would tie down vast ASW resources. a lone terrorist can tie down a battalion of police on sentry and patrol duty.

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5029
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SBajwa » 01 Feb 2019 23:13

John wrote:
SBajwa wrote:
Since snorkeling AIP submarines will be emitting diesel exhaust won't it be very easy to find them by enemy forces?

The whole idea of AIP is you don't run the engines and don't need to snorkel which as you highlighted can greatly increase your chance of being detected by not just exhaust but the snorkel can be detected by radar. There is however closed cycle AIP systems as the link highlighted which uses stored oxygen and scrub/vents the exhaust unless you referring to that? Since they carry oxygen they don't need to snorkel.

IMO the future is unmanned underwater vehicles operating from larger manned SSNs, I really don't think SSKs will exist couple decades down the road.


OK! I can understand stored oxygen, but what happens to the carbon dioxide emitted by humans. An average human exhales 2.3 lbs of co2 in a day. So if there are 70 sailors and officers that is 161 lbs of co2 how is this disposed?

thanks
Sandeep

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 65246
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2019 23:16

its disposed off in a device called the "scrubber"
there is also a system to control the humidity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_scrubber

when these two head south you can see the sweaty, dank, moist mahaul in Das Boot film.

sometime in WW2 iirc the murican gato and balao class subs were the first to have AC. and being murican also the first to have ice cream machine in the wardroom. these two classes destroyed most of the IJN merchant fleet over course of few years, helped by lack of IJN attention to ASW.



https://www.historynet.com/americas-wolf-packs.htm

John
BRFite
Posts: 1998
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 03 Feb 2019 10:03

Singha wrote:subs offer the chance of great VFM - a cheap $1 million torpedo could sink a $1 billion DDG and deny large areas of sea to anyone.
thats a 1:1000 ratio

no other weapon offers that level of stealth and potential VFM. and that 1 sub would tie down vast ASW resources. a lone terrorist can tie down a battalion of police on sentry and patrol duty.

Thats like saying couple lgbs costing few thousand dollars stopped from 2 billion stealth bomber can wipe out hanger full of planes or ships docked in the harbor, you need to factor in the cost of platform not it's ammunition. The Scorpene cost more than any other platform except for carriers to date and that's why IMO unmanned submarine will be the future. They can do the same job a lot cheaper and lack of crew means they can be much smaller and have better submerged range.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 65246
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 03 Feb 2019 10:40

Again onlee 10 nations can afford to run unmanned subs
High end unmanned drones and ucavs are not cheaper or less conplex than manned

Scorpene high cost is related to infra buildup and licensing fees too... p75 willnot be cheaper unless we build 20

Still compared to a sea control sag subs are cheaper

Will
BRFite
Posts: 634
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 11:27

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Will » 03 Feb 2019 19:21

nam wrote:DAC approval means dilly squat.

They will approve the same thing every couple of years.


Dido.. The P75I should have been a priority. The RFP isn’t even out yet.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19801
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 03 Feb 2019 21:03

The RuN has gone beyond BMos with the 3000km range Kalibir missiles aboard its subs which ate fired from std. tubes which is why Russian Lada/ Amurs being built- and series construction has resumdd, aten't equipped with Yakhont but some of their surface vessels ar so equipped. We have yet to develop our own LRCM, Nirbhay has been delayed and doesn't have the range too.It isn't difficult putting in a VLS plug for BMos if we want it on the Amur.

Now one of the main reasons why the Lada/ Amur was not built in large numbef thus far wad because their AIP system was still in development, plus the higher priority of building nuclear subs asap.The USN want only N - subs because of their far greatef capability.The IN does not need the expensive Soryu class or conv.Barracuda which Oz is getting from DCNS/ Naval Group because we are wisely going to builc our own fleet of attack boats, at least 6 in a first series.

Russia has resumed Lada production because they're more capable of the legendary legacy Kilos, which even in their latest advanced avatar have a high crew number.
The Lada has about 16 to 20 less at least with greater automation. Late model Kilos being very cheap- arojnd only $300M fotr export at the rate of only two years to build have allowed the RuN to keep their numbers of subs healthy while spending hard moneh on their N -subs.The Kalibir missile is going to bd the std. lLRCM across the sub fleet.

John is quite right about UUVs.This is the future for the littorals and even mini-subs launched from N-subs to penetrate heavily defended ports and track enemy subs intruding into the IOR .

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3205
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 03 Feb 2019 21:22

Singha wrote:Again onlee 10 nations can afford to run unmanned subs
High end unmanned drones and ucavs are not cheaper or less conplex than manned

Scorpene high cost is related to infra buildup and licensing fees too... p75 willnot be cheaper unless we build 20

Still compared to a sea control sag subs are cheaper


GD, remember unmanned vehicles will do away with crew survival and safety mechanisms that make a submarine such a hard platform to manufacture. Me thinks, once they become mass produced (and they will because of the lower entry costs) then everyone will operate them.

A decade ago when the US held monopoly on the drone, who would have thought that Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Iran would be operating hunter-killer today.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6339
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nachiket » 05 Feb 2019 05:28

Philip wrote:It isn't difficult putting in a VLS plug for BMos if we want it on the Amur.

Yes, the Russians took 13 years to build one Lada class (with no VLS plug), but apparently adding a VLS plug on a 2000t submarine "isn't difficult". And this conclusion is based on the highly logical argument "But, but they showed a little model with a VLS plug once!" :rotfl:

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6992
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Feb 2019 03:02

Take special note of the second image. Rare shot of a Kh-35 missile being fired.

All pictures can be drag & dropped into a new browser window for full size view.

https://twitter.com/ArpanSantra6/status ... 9102028803 ---> 4th Kora Class Corvette of the Indian Navy - INS Karmuk. The "Pocket Destroyer" of the Indian Navy carries 16 Kh-35 AShMs. It's two times more missiles compared most of the frigates are currently active world wide.

Image

Image

Image

Image

suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3272
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby suryag » 06 Feb 2019 07:38

Sir who is that 71 behind ?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 65246
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2019 08:13

Singapore version of lafayette class with heracles radar
Named as formidable class

John
BRFite
Posts: 1998
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 06 Feb 2019 21:21

chola wrote:
Singha wrote:Again onlee 10 nations can afford to run unmanned subs
High end unmanned drones and ucavs are not cheaper or less conplex than manned

Scorpene high cost is related to infra buildup and licensing fees too... p75 willnot be cheaper unless we build 20

Still compared to a sea control sag subs are cheaper


GD, remember unmanned vehicles will do away with crew survival and safety mechanisms that make a submarine such a hard platform to manufacture. Me thinks, once they become mass produced (and they will because of the lower entry costs) then everyone will operate them.

A decade ago when the US held monopoly on the drone, who would have thought that Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Iran would be operating hunter-killer today.

Yea especially if some of usual suspects start adapting unmanned submersible drones to launching standoff missiles it will be a game changer, it will turn into cat and mouse game of developing drones that can hunt these down safely in enemy waters. I know we are couple decades away from this but need to start investing in this tech.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1431
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby sudeepj » 06 Feb 2019 23:54

Imagine a scenario of a drone/mine that stays below the surface and anchored to the ocean floor. It has a battery/AIP and also generates and stores energy harvesting it from surface wave motion. Using this energy, it runs a passive sonar and when the enemy ship is detected, launches a light torpedo at it. You can impose a semi-permanent blockade with minimal cost, danger to own personnel.

A submarine could deploy these before a conflict starts, enable them when the conflict starts using an underwater acoustic modem, disable them after the war is over.

Coming soon to a port near you. :-P

PS: India/DRDO has acoustic modems, light weight torpedoes, smart mine technology and unmanned submersibles.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 65246
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 07 Feb 2019 00:36

Your product already exists and is called captor mine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_60_CAPTOR

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1431
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby sudeepj » 07 Feb 2019 02:17

The only thing I would add is a surface wave energy harvester and a bit more intelligence to self deploy. :-D

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6992
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2019 03:20

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1093215010375880704 ---> Naval mines never went away. They are now becoming more lethal than ever with new tech. The Indian Navy needs those single skin, non-stiffened hull minesweepers ASAP.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23046
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Austin » 07 Feb 2019 13:32

IN Woes

Image

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2759
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 07 Feb 2019 18:35

Kalyani Group have completed the acquisition of a BAE Systems facility in Barrow-in-Furness, UK, which is a submarine and artillery plant. :shock: ???? really ?? DDM ?

https://twitter.com/ArpanSantra6

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/

Vips
BRFite
Posts: 1456
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 07 Feb 2019 19:23

Austin wrote:IN Woes

Image


Indian Military planners will i suppose now think of packing the Ashok Leyland trucks with explosives to target enemy tanks and build agricultural sprayers and train its pilots in Kamikaze tactics?

This is beyond pathetic and sickening considering our GDP is growing at 7.5% every year and we have a $2.8 trillion economy. Our defense spend this year will be just 1.5% of GDP and the budget for the next financial year has actually shrunk 5% compared to last year on a realistic basis (Inflation and other factors).

gaurav.p
BRFite
Posts: 140
Joined: 04 May 2018 23:02

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby gaurav.p » 07 Feb 2019 19:55

Vips-ji, %of GDP is a narrow way of looking at defence spending. In absolute terms it has increased. IMO our military planning is completely protracted, we want to give the forces the iPhones of warfare while we have the capability of micromax's. Let us also consider that the health spending of india is just 1.15-1.5% of GDP while that of massa is 18% of GDP, WHO says it should be atleast 2.5% of GDP. Priorities matter. Revenue component in defence spending is huge post OROP. With NFU et all, it will just crush the further modernization if any.

In terms of defence modernization, we make Embraer as a poster boy of defence manufacturing while forgetting that the IAF wouldn't even look at turboprops as fighting machines (tucanos) if at all HAL produced them during that time. It is time to start working with micromax's than running after iPhones post brochure-itis. The micromax post learning will eventually turn out to be iphone is the support is given.

Finally a mango question I would ask, was the S400 the need of the hour for force projection? when there is hardly any SSBNs, frigates are being built at their own speed. WhAP is lying in some corner, naval heli's are stored in some proposal, MMRCA2.0 just another evergreening of a promise, do we really need the co-axial kamov's when we are good enough in LUH and ALH. Just shows, we want a lot of hi-tech things but priorities are missing. (btw forgot to mention that we also have our own BMD project running).

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1431
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby sudeepj » 07 Feb 2019 21:57

The 'clip ONs' to FAC are actually a great and cost effective solution. The minesweepers are going to act under Indian Air cover, as long as the sensor suite is great, why is a specialist one-task-only hull needed? Pretty much every program of the armed forces has a cost tag of X0,000 crores, when the need could be satisfied much cheaper by innovative and tech intensive solutions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Nicob ... rol_vessel

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2489
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby JTull » 08 Feb 2019 01:22

kit wrote:Kalyani Group have completed the acquisition of a BAE Systems facility in Barrow-in-Furness, UK, which is a submarine and artillery plant. :shock: ???? really ?? DDM ?

https://twitter.com/ArpanSantra6

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/


It is where Astute class are built. This appears to be DDM.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 65246
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2019 03:48

They have acquired some artillery facility

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23046
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Austin » 09 Feb 2019 12:22

Some good technical discussion why it is difficult to deal with Supersonic or Hypersonic Missile , Folks can do the same calculation for Supersonic Brahmos or the Hypersonic one under work

http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2019/01 ... es-or.html

You need to add the fact that Hypersonic Missile would be travelling in a ball of Plasma surrounding it making it RF opaque and challanging to detect track and guide it not just by GBR but by SAM's own Radar

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 65246
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 09 Feb 2019 12:57

being very hot, will the plasma and exhaust of hypersonics show up loudly on IIR seekers and wide-FOV IRST?

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7106
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Prasad » 09 Feb 2019 13:02

Eo sats might detect them. Cheenis also have that capability now.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23046
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Austin » 09 Feb 2019 14:36

Singha wrote:being very hot, will the plasma and exhaust of hypersonics show up loudly on IIR seekers and wide-FOV IRST?


IR signature dont travel long distance in atmosphere so the detection range would be at short ranges , The primary sensor today for LR Tracking , Guidance etc is still Radar , IR or IIR is a good to have secondary capability or a capability good when you are within kill box of the sensor which is generally terminal stage.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brar_w, Dileep, Hari Nair, JayS, Kakarat, madhu, parshuram, Shakthi, uskumar, Vinod Ji, vivekmehta and 120 guests