Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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Rony
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rony » 07 Jun 2019 07:53

Arabs like UAE or Oman are 1000 times better than these ******** turks in their attitude and hatred towards Indians. Why did we even invited them in this contest ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Jun 2019 15:45

While Turkey had earlier supplied MKEK UBGL for Tavor rifles to India, they've become a fundamentalist nation under Recep Tayyip Erdoğan

They've built a 16,500 ton tanker for Pakistan https://quwa.org/2018/04/12/pakistan-na ... ian-ocean/
The IN Fincantieri class is 27,500 tons. The new ships are to be 45,000 tonnes supporting our aircraft carriers and their air wings

Ideally the Turkish proposal should have been disqualified on strategic grounds. This is too critical a requirement going to them. This is incredibly stupid of the team running the procurement.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Jun 2019 15:57

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 4629771264
The P8i aircraft has a very powerful Synthetic Aperture Radar which shall be utilised during the SAR sweeps to locate the missing @IAF_MCC #AN32


This was news to me. I thought the US had removed the land SAR capabilities of the extremely powerful radar before selling to India but the capability appears intact. Even Pakistan uses its P-3C SAR capabilities for land surveillance.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Jun 2019 16:03

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8RmB0GUEAA6XzH.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8RmB0RV4AARrSF.jpg

Very important step by Navy Chief in preventing sycophancy that was creeping into a professional organization.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Jun 2019 16:37

tsarkar wrote:While Turkey had earlier supplied MKEK UBGL for Tavor rifles to India, they've become a fundamentalist nation under Recep Tayyip Erdoğan

They've built a 16,500 ton tanker for Pakistan https://quwa.org/2018/04/12/pakistan-na ... ian-ocean/
The IN Fincantieri class is 27,500 tons. The new ships are to be 45,000 tonnes supporting our aircraft carriers and their air wings

Ideally the Turkish proposal should have been disqualified on strategic grounds. This is too critical a requirement going to them. This is incredibly stupid of the team running the procurement.


Partly, but with the Turkish Lira falling from 28 RS to 1 Lira to 11 RS for 1 Lira, I think the Turks are the only one to agree for the Terms of Make in India Contract, the others probably did not agree to such terms. So I guess it was the agreement terms and cost to build these ships in a local shipyard in India which has clinched the deal.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 07 Jun 2019 16:44

tsarkar wrote:While Turkey had earlier supplied MKEK UBGL for Tavor rifles to India, they've become a fundamentalist nation under Recep Tayyip Erdoğan

They've built a 16,500 ton tanker for Pakistan https://quwa.org/2018/04/12/pakistan-na ... ian-ocean/
The IN Fincantieri class is 27,500 tons. The new ships are to be 45,000 tonnes supporting our aircraft carriers and their air wings

Ideally the Turkish proposal should have been disqualified on strategic grounds. This is too critical a requirement going to them. This is incredibly stupid of the team running the procurement.


Yah, that is a massive contract too for almost $500m per ship. Technically a Fleet Support Ship should not be beyond our capability no? We are building a carrier of this size and it must be a far more challenging exercise.

The Turks' largest warship, the Fincantieri class Andalou, is smaller.

Why do we actually need them, Tsarkar ji?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 07 Jun 2019 16:55

Mind boggling stupidity. Turkey of all countries???

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Jun 2019 17:06

chola wrote:Why do we actually need them, Tsarkar ji?

The air wing of an aircraft carrier is a huge guzzler of fuel. Adding gas turbined escorts like destroyers and frigates and their ASW helicopters, the need for fuel is increased significantly. During my time (1996), INS Viraat + Air Wing + 3 escorts burnt Rs 1 Cr worth of fuel every day at sea.

For an amphibious group making a landing on enemy shores, its tanks, ICV & trucks will need fuel that needs to be supplied from sea.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 07 Jun 2019 17:13

tsarkar wrote:
chola wrote:Why do we actually need them, Tsarkar ji?

The air wing of an aircraft carrier is a huge guzzler of fuel. Adding gas turbined escorts like destroyers and frigates and their ASW helicopters, the need for fuel is increased significantly. During my time (1996), INS Viraat + Air Wing + 3 escorts burnt Rs 1 Cr worth of fuel every day at sea.

For an amphibious group making a landing on enemy shores, its tanks, ICV & trucks will need fuel that needs to be supplied from sea.


Oops, I should rephrase my question to be clearer, Tsarkar ji.

And thanks for the reply on the importance of the vessels themselves!

Why do you think we need the Turks to build us these ships when we are already building an aircraft carrier at that size and when the largest warship the Turks built was smaller?

Am I missing something here? Why do we need the Turks as partners? It seems to me this is something we can build on our own. I'd like to hear your opinion on this, Sir.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Khalsa » 07 Jun 2019 17:23

tsarkar wrote:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8RmB0GUEAA6XzH.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8RmB0RV4AARrSF.jpg

Very important step by Navy Chief in preventing sycophancy that was creeping into a professional organization.


something that has been missed. These 26 items are worth reading again and again.
I found the bloody flower pilots around the Mig-29s at air displays mind boggingly stupid. Thank god the age of flower pots on board destroyers is over.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SNaik » 07 Jun 2019 20:47

http://www.defencenews.in/article/Turke ... avy-585015

Navyrecognition has got wrong picture in their article, this is much better. These will be massive ships, almost the size of USN Supply or Chinese Type 904 .
I wonder who is going to be the actual designer - Navantia again as with Anadolou or perhaps Fincantieri :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ramana » 08 Jun 2019 00:44

tsarkar wrote:While Turkey had earlier supplied MKEK UBGL for Tavor rifles to India, they've become a fundamentalist nation under Recep Tayyip Erdoğan

They've built a 16,500 ton tanker for Pakistan https://quwa.org/2018/04/12/pakistan-na ... ian-ocean/
The IN Fincantieri class is 27,500 tons. The new ships are to be 45,000 tonnes supporting our aircraft carriers and their air wings

Ideally the Turkish proposal should have been disqualified on strategic grounds. This is too critical a requirement going to them. This is incredibly stupid of the team running the procurement.



Deciding competition solely on lowest bid leads to such decisions.

And its here that minister needs to make a political call.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 08 Jun 2019 08:08

Having sourced earlier support vessels from Italy, it may have been more prudent to have got Fincan. to design these larger vessels.After all some design help from them is supposedly in IAC-1, so the same could've been concluded.Perhaps one built in Italy and 3 in India.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 08 Jun 2019 09:38

seems to large like a proper container ship looking a usns big horn oiler...massa has 16 of this class. i hope that turk shipyard has a track record of delivering such ships - else soko, italy,spain looked better options to me.

Image


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Big_Horn_(T-AO-198)

200m, 20 knots. so its not as if they can sail in formation with a SAG in attack speed but may hang back in safe areas and move forward to refuel as needed. enemy submarines if they can locate and chase off or sink these oilers can cripple even a CVBG. a air wing with no fuel is no use. i have read a CVN needs to refuel its air wing every 3 days of high intensity ops

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby pandyan » 08 Jun 2019 10:17

Philippines showed middle finger to us after GRSE won the bid. May be something similar would happen in this case.

Philippines Navy
Under a modernization program, the Philippines Navy sought to purchase two light frigates, each displacing 2,000 tonnes (2,000 long tons; 2,200 short tons), spanning 109 m (358 ft) in length, capable of cruising at 25 kn (46 km/h; 29 mph) and be able to sail in sea state 7. In the bidding process, GRSE was selected as the lowest bidder among the contenders, Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering, Hyundai Heavy Industries and Navantia. The deal was said to cost more than ₹21.57 billion (US$312 million).[28][29] However, based on a post qualification assessment, GRSE was disqualified on the grounds of not meeting the financial capability requirements


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamorta-c ... tte#Export

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chetak » 08 Jun 2019 10:37

Khalsa wrote:
tsarkar wrote:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8RmB0GUEAA6XzH.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8RmB0RV4AARrSF.jpg

Very important step by Navy Chief in preventing sycophancy that was creeping into a professional organization.


something that has been missed. These 26 items are worth reading again and again.
I found the bloody flower pilots around the Mig-29s at air displays mind boggingly stupid. Thank god the age of flower pots on board destroyers is over.


these things have been going on since times immemorial and point to a limited imagination is all and a new broom always wants to sweep clean but rarely does.

focussing ire on flowerpots is a good way to miss the woods for the trees.

the more things change, the more they remain the same.

still, no harm in trying, no

good luck to kb singh

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 08 Jun 2019 13:28

In a centre page piece in the Deccan Chronicle on the PM starting off "with a bang" on foreign policy visiting the Maldives and Sri Lanka , former Sec. Extrrnal Affairs , K.C.Singh has this interesting analysis .
He concludes after outlining the regional challenges to India from China and the situ in both nations saying that the PM has a great opportuniyy to further our vital interests and that we " can overlap and diverge" with the US based upon our supreme interests .He adds that " the Andamans, Sri Lanka, the Maldives and Mauritius are India's first island chain", in a counter to the Chin arrogance that the entire Indo- China Sea belongs to them upto the Phillippines, ASEAN states ans Japn with Taiwan subsumed.

A bold statement and I would add the Seychelles to the list.In fact going back to Pannikar the entire IOR is critical for India's survival as a sovereign entity.Just as is happening with China, the IN and IAF in that order should be given the requisite extra funding for capital acquisitions on a war footing through G-to- G agreements cutting through years of MOD red tape and babu machinations.

The contests between various competing systems takes years to select and acquire.Surely in the national interest as was the case with ammo shortage not yoo long ago, vital acquisitions like MCM vessels and systems, subs, torpedoes and ASW and utility helos can be fast tracked.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Gyan » 09 Jun 2019 13:43

It it seems that HAL has bid for naval utility helicopter tender.
One of the requirements of the naval utility helicopter tender is folding rotor blades.
As far as I remember HAL has been able to provide folding mechanism for only three rotor blades and fourth rotor blade stuck out like an insolent middle finger forward of the helicopter ie N-ALH
Is anyone aware if HAL has been able to develop fully foldable rotors that is to say all 4 rotors can fold?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 09 Jun 2019 14:01

Did L&T bid for the order?

It is peculiar the Turkish shipbuilder bot the deal. or was it a PSU fronting for the turkish builder?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2019 21:18

The USN is now looking at small fast "corvette carriers",
which could even dock in their amphibs for littoral warfare ops.Armed with missiles,SSMs, they could hit targets on land or at sea and cost a fraction of the LCS warships which have been found wanting.

One reason for the sudden interest in missile corvettes is the striking performance of the Russian Buyan class missile corvettes which struck Syrian targets with Kalibir missiles fired from as far off as the Caspian Sea.There are some unconfirmed reports that Ru has offered us a corvette design with Kalibir SSMs.Even if inaccurate, the IN does need a new class of multi-role missile corvettes to augment and replace in future the K class corvettes which have travelled extensively in Asia- Pacific waters.
These would be half the size of our Talwar class FFGs, but smaller than the P-38s which appear insufficiently armed for their size and cost.

Apart from a new corvette class, other smaller surface combatants like our NOPVs should be upgraded with weaponry esp. for anti-sub warfare. CG OPVs could carry out similar duties and the CG trained for mine warfare.The US is investing v.heavily in UUVs in a goal of establishing an UW network of sensor platforms making it easier to detect and prosecute enemy subs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 09 Jun 2019 21:25

The USN is looking for new corvette's? Because Russians showed how great they are? Seriously man, please stick to facts. The USN has no corvette program beyond the LCS which they are done buying (all have been put into contract as the SSC program office transitions to buying the first Frigate next year). There Frigate program which is essentially creating a DDG-51 Flight II level of capability (GaN EAS Radar) with a smaller magazine - with a minimum of 32 (perhaps upgradable to 48) MK41 VLS capacity. There is a large destroyer program (DDG-51 Flight III), and there is a new cruiser program (LSC). There are a bunch of unmanned vessel programs in the small, medium and heavy category.

What there is not, is a new Corvette program.

Given the USN's deployed missions a highly armed corvette does not work...Nothing like the Buyan class works for the US. Launching a medium-long range cruise missile at targets 1000's of km's out is nothing new. The USN has been doing that for nearly three decades. The USN fights its fights very far away from home and replenishment and magazine depth is always a concern both offensively and defensively. The bulk of the USN's combat force would have to have at least 80-100 MK41 class cells or it doesn't make a lot of sense logistically. Even the FFG(X) frigates are slightly lacking in that department so would have to be deployed differently and their appeal is more on OPEX reduction on account of a smaller ship with smaller crew. When actual combat happens, very little works for the USN below a Flight II DDG-51.
Last edited by brar_w on 09 Jun 2019 21:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2019 21:32

Please read the latest USNI piece.


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2019 21:37

I said looking at not building.The LCS vessels cost a lot and have been found wanting in the littoral context. Read the article again.It appears you haven't.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 09 Jun 2019 21:48

Philip wrote:I said looking at not building.The LCS vessels cost a lot and have been found wanting in the littoral context. Read the article again.It appears you haven't.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2360472#p2360472

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 13 Jun 2019 10:41

chola wrote:Why do you think we need the Turks to build us these ships when we are already building an aircraft carrier at that size and when the largest warship the Turks built was smaller?

Am I missing something here? Why do we need the Turks as partners? It seems to me this is something we can build on our own. I'd like to hear your opinion on this, Sir.

GRSE built INS Aditya in the 90's, so no need to buy tankers outside. Fincantieri was chosen to build the next two tankers because PSU shipyards had full orderbooks and no space to work on the new tankers.

This order could be given to Indian Private Shipyards as this is well within their capabilities and would help them financially recover their investments as well.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Jun 2019 10:57

I thought the Turks are responsible for tying up with a local a.k.a Indian shipyard and produce the ships, something Anil Ambani's bankcrupt shipyard could be brought back in business.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby hnair » 13 Jun 2019 11:19

Fincantieri's Deepak class are marvelous looking vessels, about which one never heard any bad reps. Sad Fincantieri could not be made to upscale it due to the scam-taint and blackballing.

Hope the Turkish one is as good.

From the lines (based on the link provided by SNaik-saar), probably designed by a west european consultant
Image

As for geopolitics etc: the turks under erdogan might bark and howl a lot with islamists and is wrecking his own economy, but they are hungry for projects all over the world and seem to have their own way of raising money from their own markets. I heard they came by for a JV in developing TRV airport via TAV as part of bid that was won by Adani. The yehudi-birathers were the first to engage them successfully and still does. As does Putin-mama, despite them shooting down his plane or two.

If we can slowly wean a geo-politically motivated khan off the pakis slowly, we can wean these guys off pakis much faster. Erdogan seem a Putin-lite kind of leader, maybe more of the Nazarbayev mold (loves his palaces, trappings of high-culture etc) and not exactly the Iranian busy-browed ayatollah who are unreasonable.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 13 Jun 2019 11:51

istanbul has recently opened a gigantic airport. they do execute projects well. navantia allegedly their partner on the design and hand holding front.
erdogan is a owaisi kind of islamist - using islam for political power and managing his sheeple than being hung up on dogma. he uses a potent mix of nationalism, islam and anti-kurd sentiment to control the discourse.

>> Fincantieri could not be made to upscale it due to the scam-taint and blackballing.

with unerring regularity whoever can or does deliver good stuff here is targeted with scams, stings and exposes - the list is long starting with bofors.

GOI needs to pass a law letting the legal proceedings go on against individuals but business also proceed in parallel. SUDDENLY all such stings will vanish into thin air as mileage will decline to 0. the AAP sting experts comes from the same pack of "media" and "activists" used by the defence lobbies as the skills needed are similar - hidden cameras, stealing documents, bribing people, honeytrapping...

we need a couple of private shipyards tasked and funded with orders to take up the large numbers of fleet support vessels we will need even to secure the area between NZ and SA. oilers, supply ships, survey ships, submarine tenders, missile tracking ships (HSL made 1).... hyundai shipyards pohang churns out 90 ships annually and so do some of the japanese and chinese yards. their scale and pipeline is way beyond our SME efforts.

designed to shock and awe

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby abhik » 13 Jun 2019 12:55

BTW who is the indian partner, weird it not been reported yet.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 13 Jun 2019 13:11


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Jun 2019 13:45

If HSL is going to build these ships then it makes sense, but we should keep the Turks from viewing our N Subs. It seems talks were on with Hyundai who kept insisting on Make in Korea with best scredrivergiri In India. I think the Turks agreed for more make in India.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 13 Jun 2019 14:25

for hyundai it would be just routine work, among 1000s of pending orders in their main shipyard. unless we ordered 50 tankers they would not even open one eye.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby srin » 13 Jun 2019 19:13

Great news. However, they don't mention how many are ordered.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/companies/bharat-dynamics-bags-rs-1188-cr-contract-from-indian-navy/article27898461.ece
Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) has signed a contract worth of Rs 1,187.82 crore for supply of Heavy Weight Torpedoes - Varunastra - to the Indian Navy.


The execution of the contract will be over the next 42 months. The weapon will be manufactured at BDL Visakhapatnam Unit under collaboration with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The Heavy Weight Torpedo or the Varunastra is a ship launched, electrically propelled underwater weapon equipped with one of the most advanced automatic and remote controlled guidance systems.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 13 Jun 2019 21:10

Should be much more than the initial order of 73

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=146647

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 13 Jun 2019 21:13

Why is nobody interested in Kattupalli shipyard? L&T are as reliable a brand as any other. Can give them projects, they could we become our own ingalls.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 14 Jun 2019 11:23

Yes, the L& T yard at Kat. has been delivering orders on tkme and within budget to the IN and needs to be rewarded with orders.The funds shortagf and worries of state yards of fewer orders is preventing further orders to pvt. yards.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 14 Jun 2019 11:58

to break this gordian knot - GOI needs to commit more funds upfront for longer runs of production and up the order count from our usual 1-3 to 6-9.
that will nicely solve the forecasting problem and funds pipeline issue which is fickle right now with Govts/tantris and vested interest getting a invite to mess with settled things every few years.

GOI needs to plan beyond electoral cycles for a strategic area like naval buildup just as it did for nuclear sector, ISRO and the SSBN thing.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 14 Jun 2019 14:47

For the Varunastra torpedoes the news mentions that the Torpedo will be used from both ships and subs. Has the torpedo been tested for sub launch?
I hope they have two versions for sub launch, one for the Kilo class and the other for the Type U-209s and the Scorpene. Having two versions will also give flexibility in the future, while selecting/designing the torpedo tubes for future diesel and nuke subs.

I think the current order will mostly be for surface/ship based version and will replace the Russian heavy torpedoes being used or will equip all the new surface ships like the P28, P15A, P15B and P17 with the new torpedoes.

I hope the Shyen light torpedoes also enter service soon and are tested from ALH, Il-38s, Seaking and Ka-28 for air launch.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 14 Jun 2019 16:09

tsarkar wrote:
chola wrote:Why do you think we need the Turks to build us these ships when we are already building an aircraft carrier at that size and when the largest warship the Turks built was smaller?

Am I missing something here? Why do we need the Turks as partners? It seems to me this is something we can build on our own. I'd like to hear your opinion on this, Sir.

GRSE built INS Aditya in the 90's, so no need to buy tankers outside. Fincantieri was chosen to build the next two tankers because PSU shipyards had full orderbooks and no space to work on the new tankers.

This order could be given to Indian Private Shipyards as this is well within their capabilities and would help them financially recover their investments as well.


Tsarkar ji, thanks for the reply. I hoping there was a technical reason why we needed to go with the Turks. Why couldn't GRSE share experience/tech with HSL (or any other private sy) instead of us needing to pay firangs? It really bothers me that we are throwing money around outside India but at the same time have budget issues on everything inside India including IAC 2/Vishal which these tankers are supposed to supply.


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