Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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chola
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 14 Jun 2019 16:43

Singha wrote:
we need a couple of private shipyards tasked and funded with orders to take up the large numbers of fleet support vessels we will need even to secure the area between NZ and SA. oilers, supply ships, survey ships, submarine tenders, missile tracking ships (HSL made 1).... hyundai shipyards pohang churns out 90 ships annually and so do some of the japanese and chinese yards. their scale and pipeline is way beyond our SME efforts.

designed to shock and awe


Those massive efficient conglomerates like Hyundai, Mitsubishi and Boeing are all civ/mil private/government supported entities. The civilian products and private ownership impart efficiency and discipline while the military contracts and government support supply stability and funding.

We can't seem to find the right balance in our private sector -- mainly, I think, because we are obligated to fund the PSUs first and foremost. Modi's MII focusing in the pvt sector is an attempt to break the mode. We need a desi Hyundai.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby yensoy » 14 Jun 2019 17:15

It's actually worse. We can't even keep a healthy order backlog for quasi-government companies like HAL, or pay their dues on time. I think before we get to the stage of government supported private companies, let's start with government supported government companies.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 15 Jun 2019 08:43

Our home designed fish must be tested along with the latest ones available from east and west to ascertain their comparative performance.One advantage our fish should have is that they would've been designed for our littoral waters esp. the west coast which has a shallower shelf and muddy waters closer to the coast affecting detection. What we also need is a hard- kill anti- torpedo weapon.Acoustic decoys will not be sufficient given the range and endurance of modern torpedoes which make repeated attacks if decoyed by acoutic countermeasures.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2019 09:17

>> What we also need is a hard- kill anti- torpedo weapon

isnt that the RBU6000 with its various models of rockets? IN makes sure to have them on every ship incl vikky.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 15 Jun 2019 10:01

chola wrote:
Singha wrote:
we need a couple of private shipyards tasked and funded with orders to take up the large numbers of fleet support vessels we will need even to secure the area between NZ and SA. oilers, supply ships, survey ships, submarine tenders, missile tracking ships (HSL made 1).... hyundai shipyards pohang churns out 90 ships annually and so do some of the japanese and chinese yards. their scale and pipeline is way beyond our SME efforts.

designed to shock and awe


Those massive efficient conglomerates like Hyundai, Mitsubishi and Boeing are all civ/mil private/government supported entities. The civilian products and private ownership impart efficiency and discipline while the military contracts and government support supply stability and funding.

We can't seem to find the right balance in our private sector -- mainly, I think, because we are obligated to fund the PSUs first and foremost. Modi's MII focusing in the pvt sector is an attempt to break the mode. We need a desi Hyundai.


True, GoI can support financially through low interest rates etc or give companies moratorium to repay loans etc. But need to control the PSU unions.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 15 Jun 2019 12:57

HSL has constructed ships upto 60,000 tons in the past. However, these were civilian ships. Don't know what is the expertise required for replenishment tankers? Aditya tanker was constructed at GRSE. Maybe if that design was dated, at most would could have asked for design consultancy.
The news though stated that Turks will share the design and provide the Know-How and the Know-Why for the design. The second part is most important. Over the years we have been fooled by the Technology-Transfer bullshit, that doesn't provide any technology whatsoever. Knowing the whys of the design is the most important part.
I remember for the Xfast attack crafts made with ToT from Israel, I was told by people from GRSE, that we are not even allowed to use the nut-bolts for the project from India. Everything comes from Israeal, or wherever they buy and provide it from, otherwise they do not stand by the warranty. Offcourse, beyond the 8 crafts that were built, we did not gain any Technology to make anymore ourselves. The crafts are ideally suited for shallow waters and we could export a few to the likes of Maldives, Seychelles, Mauritius, Sri Lanka etc.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Nikhil T » 15 Jun 2019 14:13

Navy finds 35 defects in Scorpene subs; program delayed by one more year

:shock:

With the navy reporting a host of problems in the second vessel, INS Khanderi, Project 75 has now slipped by at least one more year. The navy has refused to commission the Khanderi into service until all its defects and deficiencies are fully rectified.



The most worrying problem the navy discovered during the Khanderi’s sea trials was a killer defect for a submarine: Its engines and propellers were emitting an unduly high level of noise.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 15 Jun 2019 14:28

Cross posting from the chini mil thread:

chola wrote:Their shipbuilding techniques are simply superb. At times more interesting than the ships themselves.

This is a Dalian dry dock on May 9th with two Type 052Ds ready for launch near the mouth and a Type 055 and another Type 052D behind a retaining wall. Four destroyers in one dock. Mixed types too.
Image

This is the same dry dock in June. The retaining wall is gone and the Type 055 and Type 052D had been moved (floated?) to their new positions at the mouth and spaces opened up for new ships whose modules are being assembled next to the dock.
Image


For comparison, the entire Project 15B class is four ships. So basically one dock in Dalian. The Visaks are nearly the exact same size as the Type 052Ds too. They also began their construction runs at nearly the exact same time around 2012/2013.

Today, there are 20 Type 052Ds in the water with at least another four identified as being in construction. They might end up with over 30 when the production run ends. The last six or so are new longer variants called the 052DL (or 052DG.)

MDL has Visakhapatnam in persistent outfitting mode since 2015. Barring the extraordinary, the P15B run will stay at four.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby rkhanna » 15 Jun 2019 14:57

Is India The World's Best Bet To Counter China?

https://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry/ind ... n-homepage

""If India has the will and enough capabilities, the Indian Ocean will become India’s Ocean," said Japanese security analyst Satoru Nagao"

" Nagao believes that there are, as he says, three reasons why India is the power that could challenge China’s growing influence: ‘Firstly, India is located at the northern centre of the Indian Ocean. This means that India can access the Indian Ocean from all sides relatively easily. Secondly, India is the only country among the countries around the Indian Ocean to possess a strong navy. Thirdly, India has long respected the freedom of navigation in the SLOCs [Sea Lines of Communication] for all the countries which are near India, in the manner of a responsible maritime power. Thus, if India has the will and enough capabilities, the Indian Ocean will become India’s Ocean.’"

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2019 15:17

Now if only they were less constipated about joint defence ventures with us...talk is cheap. Either help us or get beaten up by the dragon eventually

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Avarachan » 15 Jun 2019 19:52

This is great news! This article from "Sputnik" is emphatic that this version of Varunastra will equip both ships *and* submarines. (Different Indian outlets reported different things.). The quote from the BDL spokesperson implicitly confirms this.

In 2016, only the ship-launched version was ready. Now, the submarine-launched version is ready, too. This is a big deal.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201906 ... torpedoes/
The development comes with India signing a $170 million contract for the supply of over 70 torpedoes for arming both warships and submarines. The supply of torpedoes named "Varunastra" has to be executed in the next 42 months ....

"We cannot reveal due to sensitivity of the matter", a BDL spokesperson replied when asked whether Varunastra could be fitted into the Scorpene-class submarines immediately.


As a comparison, it seems that South Korea's heavyweight torpedo will be produced around the same time as the Varunastra.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... rpedo.html

An interesting overview of South Korean naval weaponry:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... y_weaponry
Last edited by Avarachan on 15 Jun 2019 22:24, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 15 Jun 2019 20:56

Report in BS(?) says that the Khanderi has over 30 serious flaws and the IN has refused to accept the Scorpene.The most serious flaw is the high noise signature.The MOD supports the IN and the onus is now on MDL and its French principal to rectify the defects ehich could take another year.The programme is already 5 years behind time with huge cost overruns. No idea if the 3rd. Scorpene also undergoing trials has the same problems.

If accurate, this could spell the end of the Scorpene programme beyond the 6 contracted for and harm MDL's chances of building the P-75I too. The Scorpenes are also non-AIP inferior in UW endurance to Pak's Agosta 90-B French subs of an earlier design.Pak is also getting 8 Chin Yuan Stirling- engined AIP subs within a few years.The Scorpene's "sting" is sure to affect the chances of the French Naval Group in the on-going P-75I stakes.At this rate the IN would want another French boat like a dose of the cl*p!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SSridhar » 16 Jun 2019 08:28

Avarachan wrote:This is great news! . . .
https://sputniknews.com/military/201906 ... torpedoes/

No Indian media reported the number of HWTs ordered. Sputnik says 'over 70'.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 16 Jun 2019 13:37

Sea Guardians deal being finalised good news too.It will enhance our LR surveillance of thr IOR esprcially useful when based in the ANC.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 16 Jun 2019 13:51

the much vaunted U214 and Collins class had also suffered lot of manufacturing issues including noise. electric boat fixed it on collins I guess HDW on the u214.

In March 2008, it was reported in the media that the first Type 214 submarine of the Republic of Korea Navy suffered from defects related to excessive noise from the screw, according to anonymous sources.[16] Later ROKN denied the report.[17] There were no further reports of such noise problems in succeeding South Korean Type 214 submarines

http://pena-abad.blogspot.com/2010/01/k ... u-214.html

On the other hand, Korean newspapers have been reporting high noise levels in previous ships of class, due to propeller shaft problems. Time will tell if Batch 2 submarines manage to fix that issue.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 599258.ece

so problems like these on lead boats of a class are common and these are rectified by the OEM under contract.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby titash » 16 Jun 2019 20:12

Unfortunately not true. The article makes some common DDM mistakes in a few places.

The "70 odd torpedoes" was previously listed as 73 rounds when Parrikar ceremoniously "handed over" the Varunastra 2 years back to the Navy.

These are the surface ship fired weapons only for 533mm russian launchers on board Delhi/Kolkata/Talwar/Kamorta class ships.

These are not the submarine fired articles although some reports previously indicated that testing was due or in-progress. Either way, I think there will be complicated unmanned launchers + additional telemetry required for undersea launch tests at varying depths

Avarachan wrote:This is great news! This article from "Sputnik" is emphatic that this version of Varunastra will equip both ships *and* submarines. (Different Indian outlets reported different things.). The quote from the BDL spokesperson implicitly confirms this.

In 2016, only the ship-launched version was ready. Now, the submarine-launched version is ready, too. This is a big deal.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201906 ... torpedoes/
The development comes with India signing a $170 million contract for the supply of over 70 torpedoes for arming both warships and submarines. The supply of torpedoes named "Varunastra" has to be executed in the next 42 months ....

"We cannot reveal due to sensitivity of the matter", a BDL spokesperson replied when asked whether Varunastra could be fitted into the Scorpene-class submarines immediately.


As a comparison, it seems that South Korea's heavyweight torpedo will be produced around the same time as the Varunastra.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... rpedo.html

An interesting overview of South Korean naval weaponry:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... y_weaponry

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karan M » 16 Jun 2019 22:49

SSridhar wrote:
Avarachan wrote:This is great news! . . .
https://sputniknews.com/military/201906 ... torpedoes/

No Indian media reported the number of HWTs ordered. Sputnik says 'over 70'.


I suspect this is the same deal originally intended for Varunastra, at 73 units.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karan M » 16 Jun 2019 22:50

Titash, exactly. I too think the same thing. Its the original deal itself. Still, a big breakthrough. Alas, no such love yet for Astra from IAF. :roll:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby RKumar » 17 Jun 2019 01:51

^ Dont lose your hope, before end of this year we should see a medium size order for Astra.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2019 08:50

Thanks Karan & titash. I too thought it was no fresh order.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Avarachan » 17 Jun 2019 10:03

I don't think it's a new order, but I do think the submarine-launched version is now ready whereas in 2016, it wasn't. The timeline fits. At the 2017 Aero India, Dr. Christopher said that work on a submarine-launched version was proceeding.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/v ... 2017-02-15

The ship-launched anti-submarine torpedo called Varunastra has been accepted and will be going into production phase. SONAR development has been done in house. More ships have our own SONAR on them now. Development of submarine-launched torpedo/Varunastra on the Russian EKM class of submarines has also begun.


In any event, let's see. The real reason I posted about this was to encourage Indian journalists to look into this topic. Make no mistake: the development of an Indian sonar and an Indian heavyweight torpedo is as big a deal as the development of an Indian AESA radar and an Indian mid-range air-to-air missile.
Last edited by Avarachan on 17 Jun 2019 15:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby titash » 17 Jun 2019 10:31

Agree.

I suspect the Varunastra in its current form is an autonomous weapon i.e. not wire guided. The submarine launched article will probably need that extra technology development i.e. robust copper wire spooling, reliable signal transmission, endgame command guidance based on sonar feedback, etc.

I think tsarkar mentioned that the form factor was that of longer Russian torpedoes and this could only work on Russian origin platforms, i.e. not for Scorpenes.

Which unfortunately means the submarine launched articles will only last as long as the Kilo fleet lasts... another 10 years max.

But yes, it is a must have technology in house.

Avarachan wrote:I don't think it's a new order, but I do think the submarine-launched version is now ready whereas in 2016, it wasn't. The timeline fits. At the 2017 Aero India, Dr. Christopher said that work on a submarine-launched version was proceeding.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/v ... 2017-02-15

In any event, let's see. The real reason I posted about this was to encourage Indian journalists to look into this topic. Make no mistake: the development of an Indian sonar and an Indian heavyweight torpedo is as big a deal as the development of an Indian AESA radar and an Indian mid-range air-to-air missile.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Barath » 17 Jun 2019 11:06

Fire damages Kilo class submarine INS Sindhukesari at Mumbai yard in March, will delay release from refit to duty


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 819050.cms

After a Russian upgrade/life extension, the refit at mumbai was needed to fit an American L3 periscope mast and indian components onto the sub..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 17 Jun 2019 11:33

German U-boats being built today are mostly based upon the U-209 class and aren't much larger too.Therefore there should be little problem with the screw unless it has been manufactured under licence from the OEM.SoKo has a massive successful shipbuilding industry and should've mastered such tech. long ago. The noise factor may be related to other noise producing machinery in the sub and improper rafting of the engines, etc.SoKo has also built numerous subz of German design already without major problems.

The SK sub fire is regrettable .There seems to be far more accidents happening at our yards...remember the giant crane that toppled last year, an unhealthy state of affairs.The sub fleet is suffering from various ailments and the sooner a G-2-G deal is made with an OEM for a quick supply of the first batch built abroad,later numbers at home, we'll be slipping further behind China and Pak..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby wig » 20 Jun 2019 10:35

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 90230.html

INS Vikramaditya to get indigenous landing aids

excerpts
The flight deck of Navy’s sole aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya will \Ibe equipped with indigenous landing aids after the force has expressed dissatisfaction with the original Russian equipment.
Called the Optical Landing System (OLS), it has been developed by the Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO) here and is undergoing shore-based trials at a Naval airbase.
The OLS provides the glide slope information to the pilot through a system of lens and coloured lights so as to enable him to touchdown at the right spot on the carrier deck and snag the arrester cables that bring the aircraft to a halt. \IThe system is located at an angled position on the deck’s left side towards the rear.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby LakshmanPST » 20 Jun 2019 18:36

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/114 ... 54498?s=19

JUST IN: Indian MoD issues expression of interest (EoI) to shortlist Indian strategic partners (SP) for the ₹45,000 crore Project 75-India (P75I) submarine build program. EoI for OEMs to be issues in 2 weeks.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Prasad » 20 Jun 2019 20:03

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Prem » 21 Jun 2019 02:45

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Raghunathgb » 21 Jun 2019 07:38

Prasad wrote:...


This talks on dedicated line to build submarine and build private industry in submarine making. Since there is no private industry apart from L&T , would L&T finally get a chance ? Whoever the chosen foreign partner has to work with L&T or can they choose newbie as partner ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby agupta » 21 Jun 2019 08:11

Chaiwala inputs from a recent N Delhi trip is that the PSU lobbies have been moving heaven and earth to kill off ANY private sector "intrusion" into naval projects... various yards which used to vie with each other are collaborating to keep L&T etc. out; lots of "burnt hair" (translates poorly from Hindi/punjabi) because of L&T involvement and successful deliveries on the nuke program - that some were not even asked or informed is being seen as a big insult.

We underestimate the in-kind power to influence MoD in the hands of the PSU cartels; not a lot of "free cash" perhaps, but the right 2 week stint with family at a posh guest-house or a shipment of trucks of illicit teak from a forest someplace... amazing influence and patronage networks if you listen to the stories

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby yensoy » 21 Jun 2019 08:53

L&T unfortunately is a single source. IMHO it should be cloned into two entities L&T "east" and L&T "west" which should in the initial days not compete till they build up their strengths individually, be allowed to function as a cartel for 5-10 years before being made full competitors. We desperately need another L&T, maybe even 2 more. Full stack engineering giants capable of taking up insane challenges and delivering solutions. Sorry, the likes of Adani and Reliance don't cut it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 21 Jun 2019 12:54

Godrej has done it in aerospace and Tatas too, but judging the former footprint in TN I think they might get into ship building , better still privatise some public shipyards

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chetak » 21 Jun 2019 13:18

kit wrote:Godrej has done it in aerospace and Tatas too, but judging the former footprint in TN I think they might get into ship building , better still privatise some public shipyards



It may not be that easy.

what is not monetizable is the massive training costs that have been sunk in, say for the training and certification of specialist welders, for example. A shipyard may easily have many hundreds of them


the public shipyards are generally doing OK unlike PSUs like air India etc.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 21 Jun 2019 13:26

MDL's latest fore mishap with an upgraded Kilo won't help it apart from the 5 yr. Scorpene delay. HSL is already building our N-boats, fully engaged with that most important project of all. For strategic purposes the GOI mah want a yard farther south preferably on the east coast.L&Ts Kat yard near Madras/ Chennai would be ideal. Having a 3rd. yard capable of building sybs would enable us to build 3 classes of subs simultaneously, enabling a faster and higher rate of induction into the fleet.

In another Def. News report , the IN is to acquire 10 more P-8Is , detailz to be firmed up during Pompeo's bisit.Earlier reports hac the IN wanting around 4 more but the combined PN/ PLAN sub threat drastically increasing demands more robust ASW capability and increased LRMP assets. Alonv with the 5 IL-38SDs, this would give us a v.potent ASW LRMP force.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby darshhan » 21 Jun 2019 13:56

yensoy wrote:L&T unfortunately is a single source. IMHO it should be cloned into two entities L&T "east" and L&T "west" which should in the initial days not compete till they build up their strengths individually, be allowed to function as a cartel for 5-10 years before being made full competitors. We desperately need another L&T, maybe even 2 more. Full stack engineering giants capable of taking up insane challenges and delivering solutions. Sorry, the likes of Adani and Reliance don't cut it.


For naval purposes apart from L&T, no other company has the requisite expertise and scale to execute complex projects. This is unlike land domain where Tatas and Bharat forge type companies are present.

Anil ambani Reliance group is more or less bankrupt with the owner being more interested in pleasure seeking than running business.

Hence for the time being we have no choice but to be dependent on govt shipyards for competition. Anyways govt agencies/PSUs are better suited to cater to defence requirements of Bharat

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nits » 21 Jun 2019 14:34

Philip wrote:In another Def. News report , the IN is to acquire 10 more P-8Is , detailz to be firmed up during Pompeo's bisit.


wow 10 is a good number for us; what will it cost

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 21 Jun 2019 18:49

12 extrawere supposedly planned for, some later said 4, but 10 is a great buy.Unit cost around $125M. We don't need the establishment costs as the infra. is already thete unless a second base is planned other than ARK which may bd the case, possibly basing some at DAB. Say around $1,5 B with associated weaponry.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 21 Jun 2019 19:44

The USN P-8 program leader basically called out any potential future orders to begin planning as they will likely shut that program down around the 2025-2028 (so 2022-2025 likely upper limit by when last orders can be placed) time-frame so it is probably most economical to get final orders in much before that to avoid a production rate increase towards the end which will show up as a higher unit cost. It appears the IN wants to move faster than that to avoid a C-17 like situation down the road.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 21 Jun 2019 20:34

first pic i have seen of the wet chamber ahead of the TT. so far only read of it in books. its filled with seawater by opening the outside door. then old HWT used to be ejected with a blast of compressed air before going engine live, but later on the modern HWT quietly swims out on its own power at low setting.

the outer door has to remain open due to unreeling guidance wire until final phase or abort when the wire is cut by sub.

its complex ecosystem of hydraulic eqpt to move around HWT in the room, allow for repair and inspection of a few, slide them into tubes, the outer and inner doors, safety systems to detect water leaks or silently flooded tubes, pumps to clear out the outer chamber, and the electrical system that interfaces to the root end of the wire as the HWT leaves home unrolling the wire.

in the old days people used to have bunks on top of the HWT in the racks 8)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby VikramA » 21 Jun 2019 20:58

bad news coming in from about an epic level ****** up by defence shipyard. INS visakhapatnam is on fire


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