Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

[Rakesh]

Old or new, inexpensive or pricy...Philip Sir is going to be very happy

[John]

Why buy old Russian Kilo rather than buying some new Kilo submarines? They crank these out pretty fast.

cost?

Vietnam Kilo purchased a new one for 300 million couple years even if you adjust it inflation we talking about 400 million max. With this deal we essentially paying 1.2 billion for 3 subs, as upgrade costs about 200 million each (it cost less last time but let’s assume the worst). So doesn’t seem like a huge bargain and we gave a newer submarine than what we are getting to Myanmar as well. Not sure why don’t we purchase the ones under construction in Russia.

Just smells like another Putin bailout.

[Pratyush]

Why not just order additional p75 boats??

It's not like the Russians can supply boats faster than new built boats form Indian yards.

[John]

Why not just order additional p75 boats??

It's not like the Russians can supply boats faster than new built boats form Indian yards.

No idea only thing I can think of like Grigorovich deal. Russia is desperate for $$$ to keep itself afloat in its oil war with KSA, purchasing used vessels directly goes to Putin’s coffers.

[Pratyush]

Then I hope that people remember the Gorshokov.

[Yagnasri]

One sub sonic missiles not able to kill a ship, as another guruji put it, hitting the target is the difficult task. Once you do it, the ship will be out of commission for many months which makes it out of battle and in todays short term wars, even out of war.

[Cain Marko]

Why not just order additional p75 boats??

It's not like the Russians can supply boats faster than new built boats form Indian yards.

No idea only thing I can think of like Grigorovich deal. Russia is desperate for $$$ to keep itself afloat in its oil war with KSA, purchasing used vessels directly goes to Putin’s coffers.

Right. So India just bails out Russia and father Putin out of the goodness of it's heart. Nothing in return at all. And then repeats this same " aa bail mujhey maar" ad nauseam.

[Cain Marko]

Why not just lease them. Probly cheaper as a short term purchase.

[kit]

Why not just lease them. Probly cheaper as a short term purchase.

buy three , lease another 3 "free"

[John]

No idea only thing I can think of like Grigorovich deal. Russia is desperate for $$$ to keep itself afloat in its oil war with KSA, purchasing used vessels directly goes to Putin’s coffers.

Right. So India just bails out Russia and father Putin out of the goodness of it's heart. Nothing in return at all. And then repeats this same " aa bail mujhey maar" ad nauseam.

It is not like we are giving the money away we are still getting vessels in return. In both cases we had better choices but IMO choose worst option to maintain our relationship with mother Russia.

[Kakkaji]

It sounds like the Gorshkov deal all over again.

The older hulls must come at a discount of at least 50% from the newer builds. Otherwise the deal is not even worth pursuing.

Even if you start with 50% discount, it will end up being 80% of the new sub cost after all the Russian shenanigans a la Gorshkov.

This, and the Turkish ship deal, both smell fishy to me.

[Manish_Sharma]

Narendra Modi's overenthusiastic "I am friends with all world leaders" is costing us big time ....

1 billion dollars for 6 apache INSTEAD OF LCH

3 billion for talwar instead of Shivaliks

Now rusted 2and hand kilos for friend putin

[maz]

The simplest way to have proceeded with the 5-ship FSS (fleet tanker/replenishment ship) deal was to have Fincantieri design a longer version of the Deepak class, suitably updated with current tech, and have 4 of them built in India and 1 in Italy to keep everyone happy.
Alternatively, a locally designed FSS could have been built using modular shipbuilding building knowledge gained from Fincantieri on the P17A program.

The same goes for P-75I. Why not build a longer version of the Scorpene with a missile module and AIP included? So simple yet so difficult!

[John]

3 billion for talwar instead of Shivaliks

What makes no sense is that we have Shivalik which is superior to Talwar and would have cost about the same as what is allocated for locally built 1135.6. Not sure why Goa SY could have continued to build Shivalik where as Talwar/1135.6 design has lot of challenges when it comes to adopting it for local build.

I would be highly surprised if this project doesn’t end up costing more P-17a and is built by 2030.

[Manish_Sharma]

^ It's a Criminal waste by 'Modi the overenthusiastic friend of all world leaders"
Ice cold calculating charlatan Putin is fleecing us right and left ...

[parshuram]

https://www.janes.com/article/95102/indian-mh-60r-helos-to-be-saudi-standard-plus-national-mods

[Manish_P]

It appears from Economic Times article that the factors leading to the decision could be HSL's insistence and legal and financial implications of cancelling the bid.

Haven't seen documents of any large defence deals, but have seen and signed with a few commercial deals/contracts with Indian & international partners. Almost all had Force Majeure built in. Could we not have invoked the China Virus emergency issue?

[Cain Marko]

Narendra Modi's overenthusiastic "I am friends with all world leaders" is costing us big time ....

1 billion dollars for 6 apache INSTEAD OF LCH

3 billion for talwar instead of Shivaliks

Now rusted 2and hand kilos for friend putin

If this boils the blood then what to say of this latest deal with turkey to build more ships. With a big boy like Roos, one may look the other way. But with those sanctimonious and rapacious Turks?

[shaun]

Indian Navy "Winged Stallion" sighted in Russia. Earlier, 06 was involved in an accident at Russia





source
https://twitter.com/scramble_nl/status/ ... 8449955840

[kit]

Whats the hat on top ? .. Satcom ? MAD maybe the baby below ? .. lol its ugly

[Manish_P]

ELINT system housed on top (in the box), Search Radar underneath (in the blister below the fuselage), MAD in the tail.

[Rsatchi]

^^What is it? What does it do??
Heard of 'Chapati'
Looking at its size is it a 'PHULKA'

[shaun]

More for you guys




Courtesy livefist: 60,000 face masks flown from Delhi to Goa today on an
@IndianNavy
Ilyushin Il-38. #Covid19

[Indranil]

Such a beautiful airframe! What China did and we did not is reverse engineer these airframes with modern engines. It is easy to imagine a modern version of IL-18 being our first RTA! Here, we are in 2020, still discussing an NCAD where we will reinvent the wheel for 5% more efficiency.

[John]

Such a beautiful airframe! What China did and we did not is reverse engineer these airframes with modern engines. It is easy to imagine a modern version of IL-18 being our first RTA! Here, we are in 2020, still discussing an NCAD where we will reinvent the wheel for 5% more efficiency.

We will never reverse engineer any Russian product because of fear angering them and Russia objects to even modifying any of their platform ( as long as they get a piece of $$).

We could have updated these ourselves with far better sensors and bought airframe from Russia but Russia objected and made us overpay for sea dragon and took long time to deliver them.

[mody]

With regards to the Kilo class subs, don't we use our own sonar and batteries for these subs, in place of Russian ones? Now even the torpedoes will be ours. Also, as we have upgraded or carried out the life extension of the subs at HSL (with Russian help offcourse), buying just the hulls and upgrading them could work. Offcourse the price would have to be really good and the timeline would be important, as the whole point of getting additional kilos, is to add numbers really quickly.
Don't know why additional scorpenes cannot be considered, unless the leak of the specs was very very serious.
In case of the Kilo, the Chinese have been operating them for a many years now, and have also come up with their own version of the same, in the Yuan class. They are going to sell the Yuan class to the pakis too and safe to assume, that the pakis have exercised with the Chinese kilos over the years.

[krishna_krishna]

AUW by L& T, navy should definitely order these ASAP :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zxNEW_ ... e=youtu.be

[tsarkar]

It appears from Economic Times article that the factors leading to the decision could be HSL's insistence and legal and financial implications of cancelling the bid.

Haven't seen documents of any large defence deals, but have seen and signed with a few commercial deals/contracts with Indian & international partners. Almost all had Force Majeure built in. Could we not have invoked the China Virus emergency issue?

More to do with kickstarting the economy and manufacturing. Plus ensuring HSL is kept occupied. Our DIPP process would have taken 3 years for any alternate option.

This is a super super bad deal. There needs to be a clause where nations unfriendly to India should be prohibited from bidding. The US and Europeans have banned Huawei for this reason from their communications infrastructure. Now all is left is the Chinese and Pakistanis to start bidding for our contracts

[tsarkar]

3 billion for talwar instead of Shivaliks

What makes no sense is that we have Shivalik which is superior to Talwar and would have cost about the same as what is allocated for locally built 1135.6. Not sure why Goa SY could have continued to build Shivalik where as Talwar/1135.6 design has lot of challenges when it comes to adopting it for local build.

I would be highly surprised if this project doesn’t end up costing more P-17a and is built by 2030.

The Ukrainians denied the Russians engines. The Russians wanted to sell the ships. The Pakistanis showed interest and wanted to buy more. Pakistan has great relationship with Ukraine with T-80UD tanks and Al-Khalid engines sourced from there. All their other tank engines also come from there. So we had to buy to keep them from Pakistani hands.

[Pratyush]

Like the PRC wont be building type 54 for the TSPN??

That India needed to buy ships from Russia to keep them out of TSP hands.

[John]

What makes no sense is that we have Shivalik which is superior to Talwar and would have cost about the same as what is allocated for locally built 1135.6. Not sure why Goa SY could have continued to build Shivalik where as Talwar/1135.6 design has lot of challenges when it comes to adopting it for local build.

I would be highly surprised if this project doesn’t end up costing more P-17a and is built by 2030.

The Ukrainians denied the Russians engines. The Russians wanted to sell the ships. The Pakistanis showed interest and wanted to buy more. Pakistan has great relationship with Ukraine with T-80UD tanks and Al-Khalid engines sourced from there. All their other tank engines also come from there. So we had to buy to keep them from Pakistani hands.

I doubt Pakistan could afford them and besides I have no problem buying the Russian Grigorivich but it is 2 more we are building locally that makes no sense.

[Philip]

Let's get some facts straight.The 4 extra improved Talwars is a good deal because all our yards are full of orders,badly behind in delays and huge cost escalation. The UKR,where almost all conventional powerplants for the Sov./ Ru. navy where made,after the spat with Ru,became unavailable. Russia is now beginning to manufacture warship powerplants all at home just like the manufacture of IL-476 aircraft,no longer assembled in Uzbekistan.
India has no problem with the UKR and will get its engines from there initially.

Two hulls are ready in Ru,plus with GSL building 2 more,with TOT, further vessels or even more advanced FFGs,etc. could be built in the future.The Shivalik and P-17As are also being built at GRSE,and MDL,but they are much larger,really DDG size while the Talwars pound for pound has a terrific package of firepower.BMos not only Klub,plus perhaps the LRSAM as on the Vizag class DDGs ,P-15A/Bs ( improved Delhis) .The IN decided upon this need several years ago as a speedy way to bolster its ASW/ multi- role capability against the PLAN/ PN. We know the accelerated beefing up of the Paki navy thanks to China,8 AIP subs plus DDGs and FFGs. These new vessels will carry some of the best of Chin missiles,both anti-ship and anti- air/missile. The IN which has an ambitious 200 ship navy is behind schedule mainly due to our DPSU yard delays.Take Scorpenf subs,5 yrs. delayed.One can go on about warshipx too but ,you get the picture.

Secondly,simply blaming Putin is specious,it's falling for western propaganda,particularly US which blames Russia and Putin for every global problem,except the CV bug which camf from China! There is not a shred of evidence that there are " deals" with this G-to- G deal,just as we've had the same with the US for manb ( expensive ) items. Such an allegation would also implicate our govt. too, which is most unlikely under the current regime.

I too am pissed off with Turkey about the attitude of its megalomaniac would- be sultan, but the vessel is urgently required and an advance has been paid. What we could do is shift the building of it to another yard like L&T if in the pvt. sectorand compensate HSL with another order! We previously got tankers from Italy, but the AW scandal
sanctioned the entire Leornado Group,a big mistake in my opinion.
Today all western nations have mega defence MNCs that have absorbed dozens of former independent cos. Imagine if there was a problem with a Lockheed subsidiary,would we ban every co. of it? This asinine policy saw the first Scorpene commissioned without torpedoes! I think that the issue still has not been rectified and our Kalvari subs are using older German fish as of now.

Coming back to the Talwars,they are the smallest sized multi-role FFGs capable of true blue-water ops on their own,capable of operating znywhere in the IOR and beyond in thd ICS,etc.. There is a yawning gap between the Talwars and the Kora class corvettes.
The P-28s,teally light frigates,is dedicated to ASW and to many analysts underarmed and very expensive too. The IN probably has in mind building a few more follow on Talwars at GSL after the 3rd. and 4th. are completed .There will be considerable cost-effectiveness,economy of scale etc. in having a large no. of the class.12 Talwars would be an excellent number for the IN packed as they are with top of the pops weaponry and sensors.

[nachiket]

I am confused. I thought the Grigorovich class uses the Saturn M90FR engines instead of the Zorya ones because Ukraine refused to sell them to the Russians. Do the ones being sold to us differ from the Russian ones in that they have the Zorya turbines instead?

[Parasu]

https://www.janes.com/article/95299/rus ... arine-deal

Official sources told Jane's on 2 April that as part of the same offer, which was first made in December 2019, USC also proposed conducting major refit and life-certification (MRLC) work on three of the IN's Sindhughosh Kilo (Project 877EKM)-class submarines to extend their operational life by 10 years.

The entire package - dubbed 'three plus three' - has reportedly been priced at USD1.8-2 billion, and was expected to have been formalised at a meeting of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military and Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-M&MTC) that was scheduled to take place in Goa in March but was called off due to the Covid-19 pandemic.

[John]

Let's get some facts straight.The 4 extra improved Talwars is a good deal because all our yards are full of orders,badly behind in delays and huge cost escalation. The UKR,where almost all conventional powerplants for the Sov./ Ru. navy where made,after the spat with Ru,became unavailable. Russia is now beginning to manufacture warship powerplants all at home just like the manufacture of IL-476 aircraft,no longer assembled in Uzbekistan.
India has no problem with the UKR and will get its engines from there initially.

Two hulls are ready in Ru,plus with GSL building 2 more,with TOT, further vessels or even more advanced FFGs,etc. could be built in the future.The Shivalik and P-17As are also being built at GRSE,and MDL,but they are much larger,really DDG size while the Talwars pound for pound has a terrific package of firepower.BMos not only Klub,plus perhaps the LRSAM as on the Vizag class DDGs ,P-15A/Bs ( improved Delhis) .The IN decided upon this need several years ago as a speedy way to bolster its ASW/ multi- role capability against the PLAN/ PN. We know the accelerated beefing up of the Paki navy thanks to China,8 AIP subs plus DDGs and FFGs. These new vessels will carry some of the best of Chin missiles,both anti-ship and anti- air/missile. The IN which has an ambitious 200 ship navy is behind schedule mainly due to our DPSU yard delays.Take Scorpenf subs,5 yrs. delayed.One can go on about warshipx too but ,you get the picture.

Talwar class have never been built outside of Russia and this greatly increases the risk building them in GSL because now you have source them from domestic suppliers and also make sure all components can be imported from Russia and assembled per specs (there is good reason Chinese dropped the idea of building sovremenny class DDG locally). China is far better at reverse engineering than we are and fact that they considered building Sovermenny locally not worth it shows the challenges

You actually contradicting yourself by saying we are doing it for speed this is best choice. If we want speed we would either ordered 2 more to be built in Russia or build P-17s in GSL or order more P-17A to be built in a private SY. Currently 2 Talwars won't get built by GSL by 2026 due to all risks and work involved and that is being overly overly optimistic. It seems everyone is trying to get a piece of this deal and at the same time bailing out Putin.

I am confused. I thought the Grigorovich class uses the Saturn M90FR engines instead of the Zorya ones because Ukraine refused to sell them to the Russians. Do the ones being sold to us differ from the Russian ones in that they have the Zorya turbines instead?

They did a preliminary work to move to use the M90FR for last 3 but looks like Ukraine will ship Zorya to Russia for them to complete 2 of them for us. The last Grigorvich class which we are not buying might use the M90FR?

[Pratyush]

The frigate purchase deal looks real bad, the more I look at it.

1) No MRSAM, or its phased array radar.
2) Engines of questionable reliability.
3) When compared with the build times of improved Shivalik, won't arrive any sooner.
4) Mid life upgrade of questionable value. As am quite sure the Russians will not allow MRSAM or its command setup to be fitted to the ship.
5) Will be inferior to the type 54 of the TSPN.

So why is it being purchased again.

Especially when domestic yard capacity has not been fully tapped into.

[John]

Mid life upgrade of questionable value. As am quite sure the Russians will not allow MRSAM or its command setup to be fitted to the ship.

Interestingly the 1135.6 model displayed by GSL recently showed Shtil-1 (arm launcher) and in front of it there looks to be 2 Barak-8 module (16 cells). It still has Fregat radar the lack of MF-STAR would diminish it's capability.

[tsarkar]

Like the PRC wont be building type 54 for the TSPN?? That India needed to buy ships from Russia to keep them out of TSP hands.

Chinese Type 54/A has older Kashmir missile instead of newer Shtil-1 on Type 1135.6 that we wanted to deny them.

We also wanted to deny Pakistan the Klub-S supersonic missiles and Club land attack missiles that came with those ships

[nachiket]

We also wanted to deny Pakistan the Klub-S supersonic missiles and Club land attack missiles that came with those ships

Will we be getting the Klub-S? That would make these ships somewhat better, not as good as the Shivaliks of course but I'm just trying to find a silver lining here.

[John]

We also wanted to deny Pakistan the Klub-S supersonic missiles and Club land attack missiles that came with those ships

Will we be getting the Klub-S? That would make these ships somewhat better, not as good as the Shivaliks of course but I'm just trying to find a silver lining here.

I believe the ones built locally will have L&T VLS which I believe can only fire Brahmos.