Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 11 Jul 2020 21:14

nachiket wrote:
John wrote:Tarantul class can be fitted with 8 Brahmos in inclined launchers . Russia even displayed 12 in one of the missile corvette variants. IMO you can can replace a RBU-6000 in Kamorta and fit a 8 UVLS in its place and remove the torpedo tubes can easily come up with a 2000 Ton missile corvette. However I would much rather focus on 500 ton Tarantul class sized vessel that can be mass built and not worry about things like stealth, air search radar and SAM silos.

Sooner or later all decisions about up-arming lightly armed IN ships veer towards having to remove one or both RBU-6000's. But as Tsarkar and others explained to me a while back on the thread, that is not going to happen. The IN places a lot of importance on those RBU's as defensive armament.

Wasn’t advocating for rbu removal just pointing out if we want to modify P-28 into AshW vessels it can be done by removing Rbu and torpedo tubes and fitting in a 8 UVLS and resizing them to be smaller.

However problem is P-28 ended up costing around 300 million fitting in Brahmos and adj for inflation will push it closer to 400 million. So you better IMO building 500 ton missile corvettes.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 11 Jul 2020 22:23

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/status/1274998146758819841?s=20 ----> INS Rajput in Vizag port, four Brahmos inclined launchers are visible. The Rajput Class is the IN's smallest destroyers in service (~5000 tons at full load). The upcoming Nilgiri Class frigates are much larger than the Rajput Class destroyers.

Image



Whats that thing in front looking like Robocop terminator?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 11 Jul 2020 23:04

The Kamorta " corvette" is actually a light frigate. It's too large and too expensive a design,also underarmed. Small corvettes in recent time like Russian Buyans have launched 2000 km rangx Kalibirs from the Caspian Sea at Syrian ISIS targets. A stupendous feat for these 1000+ t corvettes. The 22800 Karakurt class of similar size also carries 8 silos for Kalibir/ Onix.Both these corvettes have the SSM silos amidships after the funnel. It is possible to design a 1500 - 1750-2000t missile corvette with a helideck hangar below deck accessed by a deck lift, a 76/100mm main gun, plus around 16 SAM missiles of B-1/ SRAAM type, 8 silos for BMos/ Kalibir/ Nirbhay,2 30mm gatlings ,an MBU plus Paket anti-torpedo/ sub system below deck or 2X2 ASW TTs. Nirbhay is still a work in progress and the IN wants the range extended beyond 1000km. Kalibir is being tweaked to extend it to a staggering 4000 km! Ru warships from corvette and frigate size will carry Oniks,Kalibir and Zircon missiles in combinations using universal silos.

If you look at our Kora class barely 1000t,there is a heli-deck but no ASW weaponry at all. With modifications,the design could be tweaked to have twin ASW TTs/ LW TTs could easily be fitted on either beam plus an MBU in " B" position flanked by two 4 box SSM launchers. The heli-deck at the rear could be extended over the cutdown to the stern providing enough space for a telescopic hangar,or in a new designas spelt out,in a below-deck hangar.This would give an additional small hangar space between gatlings where a normal heli-hangar would squat for a UAV.

Why the RBU,a rather simple vintage ASW system is still favoured is its ability to attack subs at various depths,torpedoes,and launch anti-missile decoys too.Extended range rounds reportedly have a min.10km range. Paket is a fine anti torpedo / sub system but has a much smaller range. It is housed below deck behind flush hull panels and could be istalled as well as heavy TTs which could can carry the RPK-7 ASW missile which after launch and hits water, takes off with a homing torpedo. Rang supposedly around 40km.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 11 Jul 2020 23:08

The Kamorta " corvette" is actually a light frigate. It's too large and too expensive a design,also underarmed. Small corvettes in recent time like Russian Buyans have launched 2000 km rangx Kalibirs from the Caspian Sea at Syrian ISIS targets. A stupendous feat for these 1000+ t corvettes. The 22800 Karakurt class of similar size also carries 8 silos for Kalibir/ Onix.Both these corvettes have the SSM silos amidships after the funnel. It is possible to design a 1500 - 1750-2000t missile corvette with a helideck hangar below deck accessed by a deck lift, a 76/100mm main gun, plus around 16 SAM missiles of B-1/ SRAAM type, 8 silos for BMos/ Kalibir/ Nirbhay,2 30mm gatlings ,an MBU plus Paket anti-torpedo/ sub system below deck or 2X2 ASW TTs. Nirbhay is still a work in progress and the IN wants the range extended beyond 1000km. Kalibir is being tweaked to extend it to a staggering 4000 km! Ru warships from corvette and frigate size will carry Oniks,Kalibir and even Tsircon hypersonic missiles in combinations using universal silos. Tsirkonhss already been tested from the Adm.Gorshkov 4500-5000t FFG.

If you look at our Kora class barely 1000t,there is a heli-deck,no hangar and no ASW weaponry at all. With modifications,the design could be tweaked to have twin ASW TTs/ LW TTs could easily be fitted on either beam plus an MBU in " B" position flanked by two 4 box SSM launchers. The heli-deck at the rear could be extended over the cutdown to the stern providing enough space for a telescopic hangar,or in a new designas spelt out,in a below-deck hangar.This would give an additional small hangar space between gatlings where a normal heli-hangar would squat for a UAV.

Why the RBU,a rather simple vintage ASW system is still favoured is its ability to attack subs at various depths,torpedoes,and launch anti-missile decoys too.Extended range rounds reportedly have a min.10km range. Paket is a fine anti torpedo / sub system but has a much smaller range. It is housed below deck behind flush hull panels and could be istalled as well as heavy TTs which could can carry the RPK-7 ASW missile which after launch and hits water, takes off with a homing torpedo. Range supposedly around 40km.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 12 Jul 2020 00:44

kit wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/status/1274998146758819841?s=20 ----> INS Rajput in Vizag port, four Brahmos inclined launchers are visible. The Rajput Class is the IN's smallest destroyers in service (~5000 tons at full load). The upcoming Nilgiri Class frigates are much larger than the Rajput Class destroyers.

Image



Whats that thing in front looking like Robocop terminator?


They are the launchers for Volna SAM system.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 12 Jul 2020 03:51

There was an interesting debate on a channnel reg. the ANC ,maritime infra to be accelerated in view of the Chnko threat.
Enviro issues were discussed,.Unfortunately none drew attention to how China had massively enlarged the atolls and islands in the ICS which it had illegally annexed through lanc reclamation. In Colombo,a massive " Port City" is already de facto Chink territory that dwarfs the erstwhile area of the old " Fort" district, its commercial hub. Singapore reclaimed a lot of land extending its footprint ,while India's best example is Bombay.

In the mid-60s if you lived in one of the old graceful flats that
studded Cuffe Parade,you could see across the Back Bay Malabar Hill,verdant and green.The concrete jungle that the city now a metro has become was nowhere in evidence. There was no Nariman Point ,no NCPA,Oberoi,etc. Rather than denude the tropical forests of the ANC,extending their footprint suitably is the answer to obtain more land for military installations.The 4 current airfields are all being upgraded,with lengthened runways to 10,000ft.,able to operate larger aircraft like P-8Is,etc.
We also need sub infra like sub pens where poss.,new breakwaters and jetties for larger warships like carriers. We would need at least one S-400 and other layered missile air defences .The ANC,our only tri-service command ,must be our forward offensive theatre command in the Bay of Bengal,from where LRMP aircraft ,heavy fighters and supersonic Backfires,both with tanker support ,can strike deeply into the ICS,taking the ball into China's court. UW sensors like SOSUS needed too and possible basing of subs/ mini-subs to monitor the chokepoints on a regular basis.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby MeshaVishwas » 21 Jul 2020 14:54

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 46720?s=19
Which is the missile taking off behind the AK-630?
Barak?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 21 Jul 2020 16:08

MeshaVishwas wrote:https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1285485970498846720?s=19
Which is the missile taking off behind the AK-630?
Barak?

Yes Barak-1

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SNaik » 25 Jul 2020 13:57

mody wrote:
chola wrote:
Very much too optimistic, Mody ji. The Kamorta at 3.3K tons can carry 4x533mm torpedoes onlee and the Brahmos is bigger. At 2K tons, a corvette would most likely have 4 mijjiles of Brahmos'/Nribhay's size. Definitely not 8 of each. For that many, you need a destroyer like Kolkata which hold 16 Brahmos.

The chinis have an interesting (and seemingly, very successful) corvette design in the Type 056. They have over 50 in the water and are supposedly building up to 70. That thing carries torpedos, AShM (4 harpoonskis), SRSAM and 76mm gun but no helo hangar only helo deck. The Kamorta has the helo hangar but is missing both AShMs and SAMs. At twice the tonnage, the Kamorta can definitely put on more weapons. At least give it a SAM system, even though it is an anti-sub system it should be able to defend itself with more than just the CIWS!


Chola, I have said Brahmos-NG and not Brahmos. I have also mentioned that both the Nirbhay and Brahmos-NG are currently under development.
The Brahmos-NG is expected to weigh around 1,200-1,300 Kgs. The Nirbhay will probably weigh around the same.
The Kora class at 1,350 ton currently are armed with 16 KH-35 Uran missiles. At 2,000 tons, we might be able to a load of 8 Brahmos-NG and 8 Nirbhay missiles in a new missile corvette design. The other armaments would be a 1-76 mm SRGM, 2 AK-630 CIWS, 16 SRSAMs and 1 Naval ALH.


Russian 20385 corvette/light frigate has a displacement of 2200-2500 tons and packs 8 ASM/AShM in VLS, Redut SAM with 16 cells and a 100mm main gun and a helicopter. It lacks a bit in speed due to forced change of main Diesels from German MTU to Russian Kolomna.

Russian missile corvette 20800 at 800-870 tons of displacement has the same 8 cell VLS as 20385 and a 76mm gun plus Pantsyr gun/missile mount but lacks any antisubmarine warfare.

Both have export versions and I guess Russians will be happy to sell them and adapt any powerplant and weapons of Indian preference like with 11356.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 25 Jul 2020 14:26

SNaik wrote:
mody wrote:
Chola, I have said Brahmos-NG and not Brahmos. I have also mentioned that both the Nirbhay and Brahmos-NG are currently under development.
The Brahmos-NG is expected to weigh around 1,200-1,300 Kgs. The Nirbhay will probably weigh around the same.
The Kora class at 1,350 ton currently are armed with 16 KH-35 Uran missiles. At 2,000 tons, we might be able to a load of 8 Brahmos-NG and 8 Nirbhay missiles in a new missile corvette design. The other armaments would be a 1-76 mm SRGM, 2 AK-630 CIWS, 16 SRSAMs and 1 Naval ALH.


Russian 20385 corvette/light frigate has a displacement of 2200-2500 tons and packs 8 ASM/AShM in VLS, Redut SAM with 16 cells and a 100mm main gun and a helicopter. It lacks a bit in speed due to forced change of main Diesels from German MTU to Russian Kolomna.

Russian missile corvette 20800 at 800-870 tons of displacement has the same 8 cell VLS as 20385 and a 76mm gun plus Pantsyr gun/missile mount but lacks any antisubmarine warfare.

Both have export versions and I guess Russians will be happy to sell them and adapt any powerplant and weapons of Indian preference like with 11356.


I think the tradeoff would be endurance and range. You would end up with less crew and provisioning for longer deployment which is why the IN has seemingly oversized vessels for the armaments they carry. The Indian Ocean is infinitely bigger than the restricted waterways around Russia. Those Russia corvettes are at best green water craft around India's littoral if they were deployed here. We don't want to fight enemy ships on India doorstep, we need to face them in blue waters. The pakis we can handle from the air with INS India. The Anti-Sub role is the only thing we need from green water vessels.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SNaik » 25 Jul 2020 14:56

Well, 20380 have been deployed from Baltic Sea to Med. 20800 is a different story, of course. But, last December an upgraded 20800 was presented with displacement around 1200 -1400 tons and definitely some ant-sub role.
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/38 ... iginal.jpg

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Mollick.R » 25 Jul 2020 15:03

India moves to buy 6 more Poseidons from US for $1.8bn
Rajat Pandit | TNN | Updated: Jul 25, 2020, 11:28 IST

NEW DELHI: India has formally kicked off the acquisition process for six more long-range Poseidon-8I aircraft from the US, while a plan is also underway for fast-track procurement of six Predator-B armed drones amidst the ongoing military confrontation with China.
.
.
Top defence sources on Friday said the “letter of request” for six more P-8Is for around $1.8 billionhas now been issued to the US for the government-to-government deal under Pentagon’s foreign military sales (FMS) programme. “The US, in turn, will soon send the ‘letter of acceptance’ after congressional approval. The contract should be inked by early next year,” said a source.

Full Article Here//Times of India Link
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-moves-to-buy-6-more-poseidons-from-us-for-1-8bn/articleshow/77160923.cms

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 25 Jul 2020 15:17

There are a few new Ru missile corvettes,one just 2000K t,with an ASW helo and hangar.V.useful load of missile launchers both fore and aft.Smaller designs are also available.It's called the Briz,by the Krylov design centre.
A-190 100mm main gun,24 UVLS silos for SSMs like Kalibir,Onix,etc., may also carry hyper Zircon ( yet to confirm),16 silos for LR SAMs,32 for SR SAMs, 324mm Paket anti- sub,anti-torpedo hard kill torpedo launchers, 1X KA-27 ASW helo with a hangar in the central superstructure, 3 sonars.Bow,hull and TAS.
CODAG propulsion,max speed,30kts.

Yes,posted the P-8I good news in the nav.av.td.v.welcome additions to the ASW capability.

PS: Reg. the planned acq. of SGs,a Nov.2019 Biz. Std. report said that alternatively we could acquire 24 USAF Global Hawks whose performance is spectacular,far superior to SGs.Details in the Nav.Av.td.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 25 Jul 2020 20:54

Philip wrote:There are a few new Ru missile corvettes,one just 2000K t,with an ASW helo and hangar.V.useful load of missile launchers both fore and aft.Smaller designs are also available.It's called the Briz,by the Krylov design centre.

Russian Gremyashchiy corvette will be never be considered as they are hampered by their configuration as they designed primarily for Russian navy operation. There CODAD configuration makes them slower and cannot operate with the fleet and we already have P-28 for ASW purpose. Project 20386 holds more promise but it almost in same class as Talwar/Grigorivich.

Karakurt class suffers from same issues not suitable for us for Ashw purpose compared to tarantul they are far slower. Considering Tarantul full fills our needs it is over kill to get an inferior and expensive vessel which is more designed for Russia. Much rather crank out modernized variant of Tarantul class cheap.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby rkirankr » 29 Jul 2020 17:13

any news on the Aircraft Carrier being Indigenously built?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 29 Jul 2020 17:34

What do you expect? It is of course delayed and the Covid excuse is very handy to push back final commissioning to 2022-23.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 29 Jul 2020 17:38

Navy keen on 3rd aircraft carrier to retain edge over China, even as the 2nd is delayed.

The commissioning of India’s second aircraft carrier has been delayed till September next year because of the Covid-19 pandemic. While
reconciling to this setback, the Navy remains all the more keen to push its case for a third aircraft carrier as well as two new ghter squadrons to counter China’s expanding footprint in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR).

As the US recently displayed in the South China Sea, much to China’s discomfort, nothing projects raw combat power like an aircraft carrier strike group (CSG) capable of moving over 500 nautical miles (900 km) in a single day.

But India, which has currently deployed the bulk of its warships and submarines in the IOR to send a clear signal to Beijing, is in danger of losing its decisive edge over China in the CSG arena.

Sources say the “basin trials” of the rst indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC-I) being built at the Cochin Shipyard, which would have checked the 40,000-tonne warships' propulsion, transmission and shafting systems, have been derailed by the pandemic.

The basin trials of IAC-I, rst sanctioned by the government way back in January 2003, are to be followed by extensive sea trials. It’s only after IAC-I gets commissioned in September 2021 now, and is christened INS Vikrant, that the “flight trials” will be launched to make the carrier fully operational by 2022-2023.

The continuing delay in IAC-I, being constructed for Rs 22,590 crore, comes when China already has two aircraft carriers, while two more are being frenetically constructed. With the eventual aim to have a 10-carrier Navy by 2050, China is expected to begin deploying a CSG in the IOR within the next few years to take care of its “Malacca Dilemma”.

India is currently making do with only the 44,500-tonne INS Vikramaditya, the refurbished Admiral Gorshkov inducted from Russia for $2.33 billion in November 2013. Another $2 billion was spent on procuring 45 MiG-29Ks to operate from its deck.

Sources said Navy will once again push for grant of “acceptance of necessity (AoN)” for a third carrier, the 65,000-tonne IAC-II (tentatively christened INS Vishal), which has been pending since May 2015.

Having earlier junked nuclear-propulsion for IAC-II to bring down the price, the Navy contends the projected Rs 45,000 crore construction cost will be spread over 10-14 years, with the bulk of it being ploughed back into the country’s economy, as was earlier reported by TOI. (one would have thought with exp of building a conventionally powered aircraft carrier under our belt we would now be able to shrink the time required to build the second but no it is already being estimated at 14 years!!!!)

The proposal may well sail through this time, with the government fast-tracking some long-pending defence projects due to the military confrontation with China.

Similarly, the Navy has also cut down its requirement of 57 multi-role fighters capable of operating from carriers to about 36 (two squadrons) now. With the indigenous twin-engine naval fighter likely to be ready only by 2032, the French Rafale, American F/A-18, Swedish Gripen and Russian MiG-29K would be the contenders for this mega deal.

Unlike China, India has mastered the intricate art of operating “at-tops” over six decades, commissioning as it did its first carrier INS Vikrant with its Sea Hawk jets way back in 1961. It must not lose that edge now.(We have already lost it)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby sum » 29 Jul 2020 19:35

Wow. 14 years in just the planning stage to build a non nuke Aircraft carrier ?

Cant imagine what the actual schedule will turn out then
20 years?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 29 Jul 2020 20:14

Vips wrote:Navy keen on 3rd aircraft carrier to retain edge over China, even as the 2nd is delayed.

Sources say the “basin trials” of the rst indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC-I) being built at the Cochin Shipyard, which would have checked the 40,000-tonne warships' propulsion, transmission and shafting systems, have been derailed by the pandemic.


The Vikrant is killing me slowly. My happiest day watching this program was launch day in 2013. Been anticipating the thing ever since. Never dreamed I would still being waiting 7 years after the thing made it to water.

Having earlier junked nuclear-propulsion for IAC-II to bring down the price, the Navy contends the projected Rs 45,000 crore construction cost will be spread over 10-14 years, with the bulk of it being ploughed back into the country’s economy, as was earlier reported by TOI. (one would have thought with exp of building a conventionally powered aircraft carrier under our belt we would now be able to shrink the time required to build the second but no it is already being estimated at 14 years!!!!)


Saar, it will be a CATOBAR. A totally different animal. Also much larger as well.

Unlike China, India has mastered the intricate art of operating “at-tops” over six decades, commissioning as it did its first carrier INS Vikrant with its Sea Hawk jets way back in 1961. It must not lose that edge now.(We have already lost it)


Not yet. The chinis are starting 50 years behind in experience. If we get the CATOBAR in the next decade or decade and a half we can still maintain major capability vis a vis a chini carrier arm that will still be learning.

We need to preserve the carrier arm. Our experience in this role is a major advantage of ours. Frankly, we don't have many others. The numbers discrepancy is even worse among surface ships and submarines. I would take our chances with 3 IN carriers vs 4 or 5 chini ones as long as one of ours is a CATOBAR.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jul 2020 20:48

sum wrote:Wow. 14 years in just the planning stage to build a non nuke Aircraft carrier ?

Cant imagine what the actual schedule will turn out then
20 years?

Yes Sir. Welcome to Indian shipbuilding. I have been following Indian Naval ship building since BR's initial days in 1997. Not a single vessel has arrived on time. Labour Unions, lethargy at the MoD, chalta-hai attitude among other reasons is all to blame. We SDREs are like this onlee!

And just because the Navy is keen, that does not mean that the MoD shares that same enthusiasm. Unfortunately, they control the purse strings. I have been hearing a number of Chiefs - including the present one - talk about how eager they are for another carrier. No file moves.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 29 Jul 2020 20:58

Rakesh wrote:
sum wrote:Wow. 14 years in just the planning stage to build a non nuke Aircraft carrier ?

Cant imagine what the actual schedule will turn out then
20 years?

Yes Sir. Welcome to Indian shipbuilding. I have been following Indian Naval ship building since BR's initial days in 1997. Not a single vessel has arrived on time. Labour Unions, lethargy at the MoD, chalta-hai attitude among other reasons is all to blame. We SDREs are like this onlee!


And our Navy proceeds with majorly Indian vessels in spite of all this. I do not want to pit one service against another but just suffice to look at Arjun and Tejas over the years.

The IN wants a 65K-ton INDIAN CATOBAR. I trust their judgement. Everyone knows these things take time. Please approve their vision. As the IN says, this investment is going back into Indian capacity not to some phoren MIC.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rsatchi » 29 Jul 2020 21:04

chola wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Yes Sir. Welcome to Indian shipbuilding. I have been following Indian Naval ship building since BR's initial days in 1997. Not a single vessel has arrived on time. Labour Unions, lethargy at the MoD, chalta-hai attitude among other reasons is all to blame. We SDREs are like this onlee!


And our Navy proceeds with majorly Indian vessels in spite of all this. I do not want to pit one service against another but just suffice to look at Arjun and Tejas over the years.

The IN wants a 65K-ton INDIAN CATOBAR. I trust their judgement. Everyone knows these things take time. Please approve their vision. As the IN says, this investment is going back into Indian capacity not to some phoren MIC.

Cholaji
This whole ecosystem of PSU for defence has been built up by the Congi-Left just for their vote banks
GSRE,MDL,KSY,HAL, Ordinance bureau
Has any of these ever faced any open tender competition: No
And will they ever agree for Private sectors to compete again NO
So what MIC capabilities are we going to strengthen!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jul 2020 21:14

In addition to what Rsatchi has said, the Navy does not need my approval. The Navy needs the MoD's approval. Good luck on getting that. And Arjun and Tejas are not apt examples to bring up against IAC-2.

IAC-2 is a white elephant project that will go nowhere until the economy and the MoD improves. Good luck on either happening anytime soon. As per the Navy's own admission, it is going to take 15 years for IAC-2 to be complete. I will tack on another five years to that. So by 2040, assuming approval comes by 31 Dec 2020.

Okay let me wake up from my fantasy that MoD has turned over a new leaf and actually *CARES* about national security. That was a nice dream!

Nice to put in annual MoD brochure that Indian shipbuilding is building six state-of-the-art Scorpene Class boats. Oh wait, they have no torpedoes! But that is a little detail that no one tells you. But what goes in the brochure? Picture of Scorpene. Instead of torpedoes, the IN will shoot rose petals at Chinese boats and they will shiver as a result.

Where is the contract for new torpedoes for Scorpene boats? File is sitting on some babu's desk under his hot tea and deep fried bondas. The only action that file is seeing is tea stains and grease stains. Till then, the Scorpene is making do with aging torpedoes from the Kilo or Type 209 boats. How long does it take to sanction funding for new torpedoes? If that torpedo explodes and sinks a brand new boat, you think that Babu is going to get blamed? Ha! :lol:

When Sindhurakshak was lost because of a torpedo accident, one young Naval officer said this, "Sir, we are sitting on ticking time bombs."

How many years did it take to sanction funding again to replace the aging Sea Kings? I seem to have lost track. Finally the IN is getting MH-60R.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 29 Jul 2020 21:37

So by the time the 3rd aircraft carrier is brought into service Vikramaditya would have long gone into the scarp yard. Navy would again have just 2 aircraft carriers.

Need to really start giving contracts to the Private players to overcome the shoddy delivery problem of the PSU's.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jul 2020 21:44

Satan does not cast out Satan.

Each time a private player wants to come in, the MoD will play spoil sport.

PSUs are there to stay unless there is a revolution.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 29 Jul 2020 21:53

Rsatchi wrote:Cholaji
This whole ecosystem of PSU for defence has been built up by the Congi-Left just for their vote banks
GSRE,MDL,KSY,HAL, Ordinance bureau
Has any of these ever faced any open tender competition: No
And will they ever agree for Private sectors to compete again NO
So what MIC capabilities are we going to strengthen!


Saar, our main MIC capacity is within the PSUs. There is no argument there. It is what we have now. So a project like Vishal is like the Apollo project for the US. Before SpaceX there was only NASA.

Satchi ji, I am like you, I have always favored competition from the private sector but we can't just tear down what we have. And we can't put off mighty projects like Vishal just because we do not have the ideal MIC.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 29 Jul 2020 21:58

chola wrote:

Saar, it will be a CATOBAR. A totally different animal. Also much larger as well.


Dont bet it will be a CATOBAR, just as the nuclear propulsion/EMALS option was dropped,CATOBAR may also be out. Even if not the 14-20 years time frame to build one is simply ludicrous.

chola wrote:Not yet. The chinis are starting 50 years behind in experience. If we get the CATOBAR in the next decade or decade and a half we can still maintain major capability vis a vis a chini carrier arm that will still be learning.

We need to preserve the carrier arm. Our experience in this role is a major advantage of ours. Frankly, we don't have many others. The numbers discrepancy is even worse among surface ships and submarines. I would take our chances with 3 IN carriers vs 4 or 5 chini ones as long as one of ours is a CATOBAR.


We are not going to have a 3 carrier Navy as the Vikramaditya which was floated in 1987 will be a rust bucket in the next 20-25 years. Even if we get the CATOBAR (a big if) on the new carrier the Chinese would have gone ahead of us as they are building their fourth carrier with EMALS. They are on track to have a 6-10 carrier fleet by 2050.
Last edited by Vips on 29 Jul 2020 22:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jul 2020 22:00

Vips, IAC-2 will not be a CATOBAR vessel. Good luck on that happening.

They can have another Vikrant Class vessel in 10 years, but the Navy does not want it.

Then wait for 20 years then.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 29 Jul 2020 22:21

Rakesh wrote:In addition to what Rsatchi has said, the Navy does not need my approval. The Navy needs the MoD's approval. Good luck on getting that. And Arjun and Tejas are not apt examples to bring up against IAC-2.

IAC-2 is a white elephant project that will go nowhere until the economy and the MoD improves. Good luck on either happening anytime soon. As per the Navy's own admission, it is going to take 15 years for IAC-2 to be complete. I will tack on another five years to that. So by 2040, assuming approval comes by 31 Dec 2020.


You're the Admiral. Your approval would be a good sign :)

So we can only begin an IAC-2 type project when the economy gets better? The lead time is over a decade, how do we time the economy? We begin the build now and things could improve over that time. Or we could begin in a good economic spurt and the economy could tank in the next decade and then do we cancel?

Trying to time the market on something like a carrier doesn't make a lot of sense. Too much can change over the period needed to build the product. You have to determine the need and then go with it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jul 2020 22:31

So your idea is to lay the keel and when the funds come we just continue the build? And when funds stop, we stop the build?

If that idea was going to work, then why did the IN make IAC-2 a non-nuclear powered vessel? Go with the bells-and-whistles carrier. Get nuclear power, get EMALS, get 65,000 ton, get 57 carrier borne fighters. Get it all. And if it takes 20+ years for delivery, heck we can always argue that we have 20 years of time.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 29 Jul 2020 22:44

Rakesh wrote:So your idea is to lay the keel and when the funds come we just continue the build? And when funds stop, we stop the build?


Saar, I am arguing exactly AGAINST that! You need to commit to funding with any great and worthwhile project. You can't time and wait for the perfect economic scenario. Assess the need and fund over the years. The economy can wax and wane over the life of the project.


If that idea was going to work, then why did the IN make IAC-2 a non-nuclear powered vessel? Go with the bells-and-whistles carrier. Get nuclear power, get EMALS, get 65,000 ton, get 57 carrier borne fighters. Get it all. And if it takes 20+ years for delivery, heck we can always argue that we have 20 years of time.


Please, no one is saying that the budget is unlimited. There is the reality of money. But anything worthwhile will cost money. The Navy had never been spendthrift. They are always last when getting their slice of the pie. And they eat mom's cooking mostly instead of making dad buy takeoff from the fancy phoren places. A CATOBAR will kick off many local capabilities. Many that we cannot think of now.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jul 2020 23:12

chola wrote:
Rakesh wrote:So your idea is to lay the keel and when the funds come we just continue the build? And when funds stop, we stop the build?

Saar, I am arguing exactly AGAINST that! You need to commit to funding with any great and worthwhile project. You can't time and wait for the perfect economic scenario. Assess the need and fund over the years. The economy can wax and wane over the life of the project.

Was that point not made clear to the Navy on multiple occasions?

In 2017, when they wanted the bells-and-whistles IAC-2...the MoD Babus got asthma attack at the cost, minus the 57 carrier borne fighters. They told the Navy, NO WAY! By the way, the 57 fighters were going to cost *MORE* than IAC-2.

In 2018, the Navy went in with a revised design (50,000 ton and CATOBAR). And that idea too got shot down.

The latest I heard is that they are sticking to the tonnage, but deleting the CATOBAR. Not confirmed yet. Perhaps this time, the MoD will laugh the Navy out of their office.

Dreams and desires are nice to have, but they have to be backed up by funding. Until the MoD approves, it will stay as a dream onlee.

Air Chief Marshal PV Naik (retd), once said, "The country's aspirations are going to increase. My main task is to be able to meet the country's aspirations. The country's zone of influence, zone of interest is going to increase. I should be able to meet the interests of the country. My mission is to protect the country from any attacks through the medium of air and space. I should have the capability to ensure this."

I can remove the word "space" and substitute the word "sea" in there, to give it a Naval twist. But everything else he said is SPOT ON. But is the MoD releasing the funds to ensure that the Navy can meet the country's aspirations? But wait...does the Babu even know what the country's aspirations are?

The only thing worthwhile to the Babu is which ministry he will be posted to next and will get his 4:30 pm snack? And obviously how many years of this drudgery does he have to go through, before he can retire.

Theory is nice i.e. assess the need and funds over the years. We are seeing the reality though over the years.

chola wrote:
Rakesh wrote:If that idea was going to work, then why did the IN make IAC-2 a non-nuclear powered vessel? Go with the bells-and-whistles carrier. Get nuclear power, get EMALS, get 65,000 ton, get 57 carrier borne fighters. Get it all. And if it takes 20+ years for delivery, heck we can always argue that we have 20 years of time.

Please, no one is saying that the budget is unlimited. There is the reality of money. But anything worthwhile will cost money. The Navy had never been spendthrift. They are always last when getting their slice of the pie. And they eat mom's cooking mostly instead of making dad buy takeoff from the fancy phoren places. A CATOBAR will kick off many local capabilities. Many that we cannot think of now.

From where are you going to get CATOBAR? The only countries that operate CATOBAR vessels are US and France. And the steam catapult on the Charles De Gualle is from the US. Their second vessel will have EMALS, which is also from the US. What local capabilities are you talking about? This will be another screwdrivergiri project onlee.

The PLAN is already knocking at our door. And the Indian Navy wants to wait for 20 years before IAC-2 comes to answer the knocking? Really?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 29 Jul 2020 23:56

^^^ Admiral, I appreciate you smacking me in the face with reality.

But I have a dream. And it appears the Navy still have theirs and I hope that goddam Babu understands the nation's aspiration:

https://eurasiantimes.com/indian-navy-seeks-third-aircraft-carrier-to-counter-china-in-the-indian-ocean-region/


Indian Navy Seeks Third Aircraft Carrier To Counter China In The Indian Ocean Region

Published 11 hours ago on July 29, 2020
By EurAsian Times Desk

The Indian Navy is seeking a third aircraft carrier and two new fighter squadrons to counter Chinese threat in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR). In recent months, Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean Region has increased and the Indian Navy believes that a third aircraft carrier will help India contain China.

...

The Navy is expected to push for a grant of ‘’acceptance of necessity’’(AoN) for the third carrier, the 65,000-tonne IAC-II (INS Vishal). Experts at EurAsian Times believe that the grant may actually pass this time since the government is fast-tracking pending defence projects amidst soaring tensions with neighbours.

To balance the cost of the third carrier, the Navy has also trimmed the number of fighter jets it requested to 36 (two squadrons) from 57.


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Sumeet » 30 Jul 2020 04:08

Without aircraft carriers we will be fighting China on our Southern tip. Let's get our carrier force build up going so that we can project our power deep into blue. The more power we have the more allies will find us beneficial to collaborate with. Plus we need a minmum of 3 carriers to handle TSP and Chinese coms.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rony » 30 Jul 2020 04:38

Rakesh wrote:From where are you going to get CATOBAR? The only countries that operate CATOBAR vessels are US and France. And the steam catapult on the Charles De Gualle is from the US. Their second vessel will have EMALS, which is also from the US. What local capabilities are you talking about? This will be another screwdrivergiri project onlee.


Noob question. If its just US and France who have them, then how are the Chinese coming up one for their type 003 ? Espionage ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2020 04:51

Espionage and Trial & Error.

Don’t believe everything the Chinese say. It will take a while before they master the system. The US has been doing this for decades.

As per the Chinese, the J-20 is stealth. If it was, how did a Su-30MKI detect it?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby VinodTK » 30 Jul 2020 06:52

Indian Navy need to develop the Andaman/Nicobar and Lakshadweep islands into fortress, to achieve this there should be a new joint/theater command called island theater command. Build runways, jettys and base IAF, naval assets there along with marines and heavy coast guard presence should be at the disposal of the theater command.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_Sharma » 30 Jul 2020 07:10

Jealousy and interservice competition is the cause of Navy desiring Vishal Aircraft Carrier.

Ministry of Defence has to look at the holistic picture of nation's security, and what priorities they see they've to find money for first:

Antony and manmohan singh approved 'Offensive Mountain Strike Corps' but GoI had no money to actually create it.

There was no money for 126 Rafale the genuine winner of MMRCA competition. So they had to buy only 36

There has to be money for 6 Nuclear SSN

There has to be money for P75I submarines

There has to be money for more P28s, P17s

Navy seems to just hate the Ocean, they'd rather be in Air. I never see a press report, any article written for the need of more Corvettes, Destroyers, Frigates. Just 57 Foreign Fighters and Jumbo sized Vishal Carrier. It seems they only want to buy it for the sake of Prestige.

Imagine a Vishal size carrier lying in Dock going for maintenance and upgrade while a 17 day war breaks out. It will sit out the whole war. What a wastage of precious defence-funds.

What will they do with such a huge carrier? I don't think they're going to sail it into south china sea and duke it out with chinese carriers. Nor chinese have the capacity and guts to sail in Hind Mahasagar with their carriers and fight us.

MoD would rather spend money where it is needed, Himalaya, Thar, Rajasthan, Punjab.

I think the carrier wing of navy dominates its decision making. Of course which suits Boeing fine for their F-18s so they fund news articles wailing for 'pressing need for 65,000 ton EMALS carrier with 57 fighters'

It will be utter wastage of money.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karan M » 30 Jul 2020 08:16

An aircraft carrier goes wherever it wants. The AC can be parked outside the A&N to lend its airpower or accompany an Indian flotilla towards the straits of Malacca. It is a potent tool. As to "hating the Ocean, rather be in the air", look up the battle of Midway or even Pearl Harbour. Both have salutary details around what happens to Navies which ignore the air.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Jul 2020 09:53

Well Navy is dreaming big but I'd rather it order a follow on vikrant. CSL, a PSU had promised one in 4-5 years if ordered soon iirc. Bird in hand and all. Much more likely to get it past the mandarins in the finmin too...


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