Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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nishant.gupta
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nishant.gupta » 07 Sep 2020 12:11

bharathp wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/news/experts-join-efforts-salvage-burning-033407987.html


COLOMBO, Sri Lanka (AP) — A fire on a large oil tanker drifting off Sri Lanka's coast was extinguished on Sunday after burning for three days, as a team of experts moved to salvage the vessel, the country's navy said.

Four tugboats, three Sri Lankan navy ships and six Indian ships battled the fire on the MT New Diamond since Thursday. Five Sri Lankan coast guard ships and gunboats also took part in the effort.

anyone know which IN ships were involved? was it IN at all?


No IN. All CG ships. I dont think it would be wise to put IN assets into this with the other situations developing elsewhere.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/indian-coast-guard-sends-3-ships-aircraft-after-sri-lanka-seeks-help-in-fighting-fire-onboard-oil-tanker/2073910/ Since the article says 6 Indian ships, more could have been sent later.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kakarat » 07 Sep 2020 12:13

bharathp wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/news/experts-join-efforts-salvage-burning-033407987.html


COLOMBO, Sri Lanka (AP) — A fire on a large oil tanker drifting off Sri Lanka's coast was extinguished on Sunday after burning for three days, as a team of experts moved to salvage the vessel, the country's navy said.

Four tugboats, three Sri Lankan navy ships and six Indian ships battled the fire on the MT New Diamond since Thursday. Five Sri Lankan coast guard ships and gunboats also took part in the effort.

anyone know which IN ships were involved? was it IN at all?


https://twitter.com/IndiaCoastGuard/sta ... 9670364161
Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Sep 2020 13:37

This could have gone into the Coast Guard thread. Good to see the quick response from a large number of Coast Guard ships and the vast array of pollution control measures.

I see INS Sahyadri some distance away.

Good to see Coast Guard's ability for force projection in forward areas. I hope the Coast Guard ships get the Nag missile that will be ideal for their type of missions.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby bharathp » 07 Sep 2020 23:16

MT New Diamond catches fire again while being escorted by INS Sahyadri
MT New Diamond caught fire again while being escorted by the INS Sahyadri. The fully loaded supertanker that was ablaze just a few days ago off the coast of Sri Lanka, the Indian Navy said today. Meanwhile, efforts have been intensified to bring the fire under control.

other news on same topic:
The head of Sri Lanka’s Marine Environment Protection Authority, Darshani Lahandapur, had said the Indian Ocean island nation does not have the resources or capacity to combat such a massive disaster and appealed for help from regional countries. She said her organization plans to take legal action over the fire.

The tanker had 23 crew members — 18 Filipinos and five Greeks. Twenty-one crew members left the tanker uninjured as the fire burned.

The tanker was transporting crude oil from the port of Mina Al Ahmadi in Kuwait to the Indian port of Paradip, where the state-owned Indian Oil Corp. has a refinery.


"Regional cuntries" -> only one regional country? no china I hope
legal action -> the end customer was India - will the legal action be against the buyer or seller?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 08 Sep 2020 02:43

tsarkar wrote:.... I hope the Coast Guard ships get the Nag missile that will be ideal for their type of missions.


Interesting comment. Recently small missiles such as Martlet and Gremlin(?) have come up in foreign navies as a response to swarm attacks or asymmetric attacks such as boats. Do we face such a threat? Furthermore, nag is a specialised anti-tank missile and it appears similar to martlet only superficially.

ICG ships do have potential to up-arm themselves better through stabilized weapon stations. The recent purchase of Elbit RWS is step in right direction. More firepower can be added using more such systems and more small arms such as 84mm RLs;

https://twitter.com/Aditya_G_Social/sta ... 71554?s=20

2 ICG OPVs even have 2 CRN-91 30mm guns:

https://twitter.com/Aditya_G_Social/sta ... 46400?s=20

Lastly, an upgrade of assault rifles from current 5.56mm to 7.62mm could also add some firepower.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 09 Sep 2020 08:39

We have a 12.7mm remote MG on our Arjun tanks,as well as an Ru one on the Arjun. CG vessels have for some time used the 30mm cannon which was adapted from the BMP ICVs. Some navies have armed their fast craft with ATGMs too.

However,I would like to see the CG trained for more duties such as mine- countermeasures. CG ships could be fitted with clip- on MCM eqpt. to relieve the IN hov the task. Dedicated MCM vessels could also be acquired by the CG along with specialised UUVs for the same. Both the IN and CG operate OPVs,no reason why they cannot operate MCMVs too.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 09 Sep 2020 23:27

Philip wrote:....However,I would like to see the CG trained for more duties such as mine- countermeasures. CG ships could be fitted with clip- on MCM eqpt. to relieve the IN hov the task. Dedicated MCM vessels could also be acquired by the CG along with specialised UUVs for the same. Both the IN and CG operate OPVs,no reason why they cannot operate MCMVs too.


As is often the case in Indian defence matters, there is a lack of consensus as to what should be the role of the ICG in relation to the Navy. There is no provision in the CG act for wartime or military roles. Even for peacetime roles its the IN which is the lead agency (rightfully so imho) for coastal defence.

In current state, ICG is at best placed to offer following military roles:

- Combat Search and Rescue using water and air based platforms.
- Recce and surveillance of near shore areas
- Force protection in harbours and in coastal areas
- Support beach landings using hovercraft
- Defend against Pak Marines and SSGN in creek areas.
- Protect coastal targets (Trombay, offshore installations) against non-state actors
- VBSS against enemy shipping

Nowadays ASW and MCM are highly technical and specialised fields and requires year round training and practice. Clip on suites only give you flexibility of choosing platforms - so Navy can employ them on Water Jet FACs or any other vessel.

At best ICG could host a ASW or AEW chopper, assuming there are enough to go around.

Below is an excellent piece from US perspective:

https://chuckhillscgblog.net/2012/02/10 ... ard-roles/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kakarat » 10 Sep 2020 19:46

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1304053181773570049
Keel laid today for the @IndianNavy's 3rd Project 17A (new Nilgiri class) stealth frigate UDAYGIRI. Seven of these ships will be built -- 4 at Mazagon Docks, 3 at Garden Reach Shipbuilders. Lead ship expected to enter service mid-2022.


Image
Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 10 Sep 2020 19:50

The Nilgiri class is so beautiful. Still funny that they are frigates when they are bigger than the Delhi class destroyers.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nachiket » 10 Sep 2020 23:32

chola wrote:The Nilgiri class is so beautiful. Still funny that they are frigates when they are bigger than the Delhi class destroyers.

Delhi class is more heavily armed though. 16 Urans vs 8 Brahmos. 48 Shtil SAM's vs 32 Barak-8's. Nilgiri class goes for quality over quanitity.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 10 Sep 2020 23:38

An upgrade is being planned (not sure how far it is) for the Delhi Class.

The Urans are to be replaced by the BrahMos.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 11 Sep 2020 00:21

Rakesh wrote:An upgrade is being planned (not sure how far it is) for the Delhi Class.

The Urans are to be replaced by the BrahMos.


Brahmos as a system is relevant for decades to come thanks to speed and/or range. So not worried about the sacrifices we have to make to install it on our ships.

Nevertheless, we do need a smaller and cheaper system that can be deployed on smaller ships. An equivalent of Kh-35 or Harpoon if you will.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kakarat » 11 Sep 2020 00:23

In Indian Navy
16 ASM/SSM is Destroyer
8 ASM/SSM is Frigates
Size doesn't matter

But I have always felt that the No of SAMs is less that too without any point-defense missile, with only 32 Barak-8 taking the roll of both LR SAM and point-defense missile

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 11 Sep 2020 02:45

Kakarat wrote:In Indian Navy
16 ASM/SSM is Destroyer
8 ASM/SSM is Frigates
Size doesn't matter

But I have always felt that the No of SAMs is less that too without any point-defense missile, with only 32 Barak-8 taking the roll of both LR SAM and point-defense missile

It is size and role but P-17 have grown significantly in size. Brahmaputra class have 16 Uran, Delhi is supposed to be refitted with 8 Brahmos in inclined launchers and Talwar were originally supposed to have 16 Uran before russia redesigned it with 8 Klub.

P-15a and P-15b are supposed to have 24-32 SRSAM ( depending on what we go with: VL MICA, CAMM, DRDO SR SAM, improved Barak) if I recall correctly not sure what is happening with that procurement. I don’t believe P-17A have room to be fitted with it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby titash » 11 Sep 2020 03:25

John wrote:
Kakarat wrote:In Indian Navy
16 ASM/SSM is Destroyer
8 ASM/SSM is Frigates
Size doesn't matter

But I have always felt that the No of SAMs is less that too without any point-defense missile, with only 32 Barak-8 taking the roll of both LR SAM and point-defense missile

It is size and role but P-17 have grown significantly in size. Brahmaputra class have 16 Uran, Delhi is supposed to be refitted with 8 Brahmos in inclined launchers and Talwar were originally supposed to have 16 Uran before russia redesigned it with 8 Klub.

P-15a and P-15b are supposed to have 24-32 SRSAM ( depending on what we go with: VL MICA, CAMM, DRDO SR SAM, improved Barak) if I recall correctly not sure what is happening with that procurement. I don’t believe P-17A have room to be fitted with it.
John wrote:
Kakarat wrote:In Indian Navy
16 ASM/SSM is Destroyer
8 ASM/SSM is Frigates
Size doesn't matter

But I have always felt that the No of SAMs is less that too without any point-defense missile, with only 32 Barak-8 taking the roll of both LR SAM and point-defense missile

It is size and role but P-17 have grown significantly in size. Brahmaputra class have 16 Uran, Delhi is supposed to be refitted with 8 Brahmos in inclined launchers and Talwar were originally supposed to have 16 Uran before russia redesigned it with 8 Klub.

P-15a and P-15b are supposed to have 24-32 SRSAM ( depending on what we go with: VL MICA, CAMM, DRDO SR SAM, improved Barak) if I recall correctly not sure what is happening with that procurement. I don’t believe P-17A have room to be fitted with it.


Numbers don't convey the full story.
The Kh-35 Uran is approx. 600kg whereas the BrahMos is a 3000kg missile. The weight & volume penalties of 8 BrahMos missiles is larger than that for 16 Urans. The performance and use case scenarios are very different for the two. But a hi/lo mix is always desirable - why would you waste a BrahMos on a Pakis oil tanker or a Karachi oil farm?

Compared to the Delhi class and its derivatives, the Shivalik/Nilgiri are essentially a "western" platform just like the Tejas is for the IAF:
1) Propulsion: CODAG v/s all-gas-turbine --> benefits in reliability, fuel consumption, and maintenance OPEX, but at the cost of higher CAPEX
2) Hull Form: shorter, beamier --> lower speed, possibly better stability?
3) Stealth: lower underwater radiated noise, better stealth shaping of hull
4) Weapons: lower raw firepower (8 BrahMos, 32 SAMs, no SRSAM space, 1 helicopter -- a good decision)
5) Crew: lower; possibly higher automation and crew comfort

The IN appears to be hedging its bets for the next decade

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 11 Sep 2020 04:37

titash wrote:The Kh-35 Uran is approx. 600kg whereas the BrahMos is a 3000kg missile. The weight & volume penalties of 8 BrahMos missiles is larger than that for 16 Urans. The performance and use case scenarios are very different for the two. But a hi/lo mix is always desirable - why would you waste a BrahMos on a Pakis oil tanker or a Karachi oil farm?

A single Uran is not enough to knockout a tanker great example is tanker wars and Uran land attack capabilities are quite limited. Brahmos was originally conceived to be fitted on missile corvettes to destroyer and are actually supposed to be cheaper and easier maintain to than Uran because of its canesterization so longer there is savings (not confirmed but Imported Urans are supposed to be quite expensive). With no new orders of Uran it is likely going to be replaced as missiles hit NEOL.

That said smaller Ashm/land attack missile that we can carry multiple rounds in our existing platform will be of greater advantage , hopefully we can develop an NGARM like missile that can be quad packed into Brahmos UVLS cells.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nachiket » 11 Sep 2020 04:46

John wrote:P-15a and P-15b are supposed to have 24-32 SRSAM ( depending on what we go with: VL MICA, CAMM, DRDO SR SAM, improved Barak) if I recall correctly not sure what is happening with that procurement. I don’t believe P-17A have room to be fitted with it.

Where is the space on the P-15A/B for another VLS module? Also, if this was the idea, why not fit them with Barak-1 while waiting for a newer system during MLU.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 11 Sep 2020 05:21

nachiket wrote:
John wrote:P-15a and P-15b are supposed to have 24-32 SRSAM ( depending on what we go with: VL MICA, CAMM, DRDO SR SAM, improved Barak) if I recall correctly not sure what is happening with that procurement. I don’t believe P-17A have room to be fitted with it.

Where is the space on the P-15A/B for another VLS module? Also, if this was the idea, why not fit them with Barak-1 while waiting for a newer system during MLU.

I believe they will replace the second Ak-630 similar to Barak-1 arrangement in Delhi. As for why Barak-1 have not been fitted, they need to be purchased currently Kamorta are in similar limbo and are waiting for SRSAM. The plan is to purchase a stop gap to address that shortfall first.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nachiket » 11 Sep 2020 06:48

John wrote:
nachiket wrote:Where is the space on the P-15A/B for another VLS module? Also, if this was the idea, why not fit them with Barak-1 while waiting for a newer system during MLU.

I believe they will replace the second Ak-630 similar to Barak-1 arrangement in Delhi. As for why Barak-1 have not been fitted, they need to be purchased currently Kamorta are in similar limbo and are waiting for SRSAM. The plan is to purchase a stop gap to address that shortfall first.

Do you know why the Barak-1 wasn't included in the original design?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 11 Sep 2020 07:32

nachiket wrote:
John wrote:I believe they will replace the second Ak-630 similar to Barak-1 arrangement in Delhi. As for why Barak-1 have not been fitted, they need to be purchased currently Kamorta are in similar limbo and are waiting for SRSAM. The plan is to purchase a stop gap to address that shortfall first.

Do you know why the Barak-1 wasn't included in the original design?

I believe navy wanted ability to handle saturation attacks, IAI is offering an improved Barak-1 that uses a active guided seeker (I am guessing it is compatible with existing Barak-1 launcher) but puzzled why we didn’t purchase it immediately as short gap measure till DRDO SRSAM is ready. Now the short gap purchase has to go thru some tender and looks to be stuck in limbo as I have not heard any updates on it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 11 Sep 2020 23:53

Kamortas were supposed to have Maitri SAM.

The attractive proposition behind this was its compatibility with Revathi radar complex. I cannot say why Maitri did not proceed, but the kinetic element is essentially a MICA missile (expensive).

The only shortcut I can see in current circumstances is to upgrade the 76mm mount to STRALES which allows firing of programmable and guided missiles from the gun, which reduces the number of shots for missile defence

nachiket wrote:
John wrote:I believe they will replace the second Ak-630 similar to Barak-1 arrangement in Delhi. As for why Barak-1 have not been fitted, they need to be purchased currently Kamorta are in similar limbo and are waiting for SRSAM. The plan is to purchase a stop gap to address that shortfall first.

Do you know why the Barak-1 wasn't included in the original design?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nachiket » 12 Sep 2020 00:29

John wrote:
nachiket wrote:Do you know why the Barak-1 wasn't included in the original design?

I believe navy wanted ability to handle saturation attacks, IAI is offering an improved Barak-1 that uses a active guided seeker (I am guessing it is compatible with existing Barak-1 launcher) but puzzled why we didn’t purchase it immediately as short gap measure till DRDO SRSAM is ready. Now the short gap purchase has to go thru some tender and looks to be stuck in limbo as I have not heard any updates on it.

They could have at least included the provision for the additional VLS cells in the design. Then once the system was available, the refit could have been much faster.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nachiket » 12 Sep 2020 00:30

Aditya G wrote:Kamortas were supposed to have Maitri SAM.

The attractive proposition behind this was its compatibility with Revathi radar complex. I cannot say why Maitri did not proceed, but the kinetic element is essentially a MICA missile (expensive).


I was wondering about the P-15A/B classes. Neither uses the Revathi radar.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nachiket » 12 Sep 2020 00:35

Kakarat wrote:In Indian Navy
16 ASM/SSM is Destroyer
8 ASM/SSM is Frigates
Size doesn't matter

The 1300t Kora class corvettes carry 16 Urans.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 12 Sep 2020 06:58

Aditya G wrote:Kamortas were supposed to have Maitri SAM.

The attractive proposition behind this was its compatibility with Revathi radar complex. I cannot say why Maitri did not proceed, but the kinetic element is essentially a MICA missile (expensive).

The only shortcut I can see in current circumstances is to upgrade the 76mm mount to STRALES which allows firing of programmable and guided missiles from the gun, which reduces the number of shots for missile defence

Should not be too hard to integrate CAMM, improved Barak-1 for Revathi radar as well they are active guided missiles.

Using VL MICA for SR SAM role is pure insanity technically Barak-8
is capable of point defense and has far lower minimum range than VL MICA and kicker is Barak-8 is also lot cheaper. I don’t mind going with another SAM other than Barak-8 for SR SAM if it is cheaper.

I feel the Maitri was simply a way to appease France and with that dead, MBDA is offering the cheaper and superior CAMM missile for SR SAM tender.

nachiket wrote:I was wondering about the P-15A/B classes. Neither uses the Revathi radar.

Why do you need Revathi? MF-STAR can provide target guidance. It is multi function radar.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nishant.gupta » 18 Sep 2020 14:21

The longest serving warship INS Viraat will ..


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/ins-viraat-to-set-sail-on-final-trip-today-to-alang/articleshow/78178524.cms

INS Viraat sets sail for her final journey after becoming the longest serving warship ever. INS Viraat aka HMS Hermes, first commissioned in 1957 and served as the flagship in the Falkland wars.

I had the honor of having spent time (not posted but visited as part of an internal training program) on this amazing boat. We even played volleyball on board which stays as a memory with me forever.

For her, truly, life was a daring adventure.

Adios and Bon Voyage.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby wig » 18 Sep 2020 19:33

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 629214.ece

Indian Navy likely to set up submarine communication facility in Prakasam

extracts
The Indian Navy is likely to set up an advanced system for communicating with its fleet of submarines, including those propelled by nuclear reactors, at Donakonda in Prakasam district.

The Andhra Pradesh government offered about 2,600 acres for this high-security facility, for which soil testing is currently underway, according to Minister for Industries and Commerce Mekapati Goutham Reddy, who held parleys on it with top administrators in the Navy during his recent visit to New Delhi.

Mr. Reddy told The Hindu that it is an ultra low-frequency communication system which the Navy is looking at, and that the proposed defence cluster in Donakonda where the installation is coming up, has also been chosen by the Indian Air Force (IAF) for setting up a strategic air-base.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 19 Sep 2020 08:35

A great shame and tragedy about INS Viraat.We do not have a full-fledged maritime museum in the country unlike so many other nations,who also have saved do many warships as museums too. I have visited numerous ones and war museums too including the ones at Greenwich-lovely models of ships,Drassanes in Barcelona-fabulous,with a galley that took part at the battle of Lepanto too, the Arsenal at Venice, Royal Yacht Britannia at Edinburgh,the Cutty Sark,HMS Belfast, Les Invalides- Paris,etc. We have a tiny naval museum at Cochin,simply inadequate to display our glorious maritime heritage spanning millenia.

The Viraat/ Hermes is famous for having taken part in the Falklands War and served the IN with distinction.I remember a conversation between a former chief and the admiral tasked with bringing her to India ,just before she arrived, saying that she was in superb condition.. iI wish at least some of her artefacts are removed and preserved like a door I from INS Delhi/ HMS Achillies, installed at the bar of the Royal Bombay Yacht Club.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karan M » 19 Sep 2020 20:36

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1304053181773570049
Keel laid today for the @IndianNavy's 3rd Project 17A (new Nilgiri class) stealth frigate UDAYGIRI. Seven of these ships will be built -- 4 at Mazagon Docks, 3 at Garden Reach Shipbuilders. Lead ship expected to enter service mid-2022.


Image


Whats the rear radar? Looks like a new variant of a DRDO radar.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 19 Sep 2020 20:46

Karan M wrote:
Whats the rear radar? Looks like a new variant of a DRDO radar.

Few have said it is naval version of LTR-25 radar. Waiting for confirmation.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karan M » 19 Sep 2020 20:48

Thing is that the antenna looks completely different and is not the same.

Whereas:
https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/f ... ges/3d.png

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 19 Sep 2020 21:05

It more resembles SMART-L the design could simply be a place holder.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karan M » 19 Sep 2020 21:19

Did we order the Smart-L, though? From the rear yes, its Smart-L'esque. But this late, why would they go and add an inaccurate radar image though. Curious. All the rest seems on point.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 19 Sep 2020 22:21

If I recall it was supposed to be joint development for naval radar using LTR-25 not sure what end product will end up resembling.



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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 20 Sep 2020 04:40

No that radar doesn’t resemble it and is also too big to be even be large variant of El/M-2238. Plus MF-STAR already does S band why do we another one.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 20 Sep 2020 06:39

Indian ships have S-Band radar on the main mast and L Band radar in the rear.

For example the Kolkata class has S-Band Elta 2248 on foremast and L-Band RAWL in the rear.

In both Shivalik and Nilgiri classes, the rear radar is L Band.

The DRDO Revati and Elta 2238 are S Band radars. With a superior Elta 2248 installed in the main mast, older 2238 or redundant Revathi system wont be carried.

Two radars in the same band will also interfere with each other. So it definitely isnt Revati or Elta 2238.

It will be an L Band radar

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 20 Sep 2020 06:46

tsarkar, P-17s use El/m-2238 but Fregat main radar is E band IIRC.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 20 Sep 2020 18:59

The only other radar I can think of then is the RAWL-03 - a logical successor to the RAWL on Delhi and Kolkata classes.

https://saab.com/region/india/about-saa ... nce-radar/

No confirmed news of orders though.


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