Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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chola
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 24 Oct 2020 15:12

John wrote:
chola wrote:Beautiful! Modular building across two shipyards that is the P-17A.

Truthfully, I am glad the fourth and final Kamorta (though a fine-looking vessel) is over and done with. A corvette and we build only four?!

The modular Nilgiri is harbinger of the future.

P-28 ultimately proved to be too expensive with limited armament it can carry. So it is unlikely we will ever purchase variants of this design for other roles such as AShW.


Yes, that is why I am glad we're done with the class. It is a scion of the old methods -- expensive, under-armed and built in small batch.

Having less than a handful of corvettes destroys the rationale in having such a class. Corvettes are supposed to be built in numbers.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vidur » 24 Oct 2020 15:20

krishna_krishna wrote:
Vidur wrote:During the visit do remember that

North Block = Vrit Mantralaya
South Block = Raksha and Videsh Mantralaya

:)


Vidur Sir,two questions IN is really short on submarines with Scorpene leak fiasco and other submarines hard to come by why urgent buy of kilo submarine is not envisioned , what is your thought on getting the sub number up ?

Secondly we also lack anti-mine crafts, last contract with Korean company fell because they refuse TOT for fiber glass technology, why can't we reproduce existing aluminum hull ones (they are old designs) but better than having nothing at all. Will really appreciate your inputs.


1. There are severe budget constraints. Its simply not possible to defend the nation on current defence budget. We have over 7000 km of active/hostile land borders, huge coast line. Budgetary allocations are not in sync with LTIPP (Long Term Integrated Perspective Plans) and 5 year Defence plans. They fall prey to pushes and pulls of annual budget. Unless we reform this, we will not be able to do any systematic defence planning

2. Pulls and pushes of our PSU shipyards wanting their say + share of spoils, our procurement process timeframes, complexities of 'technology transfer' dealt a blow to the MCM acquisition. We cannot handle so much complexity - everybody will want to have their say, questions will be raised at every stage, no one will want to take a decision, no one in Minsitry is invested in navigating such complexity so it inevitably fails. Next steps as to what to do are in the domain of the service to decide on right way forward considering costs/benefits and progress another case. I am not an expert on the technicalities so cannot comment on your suggestion but it does raise one question - if you are doing this and spending 100, why not do it properly at 120, 130 ? Such questions will be asked by the environment so the service needs to be sure they can be answered.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby asbchakri » 25 Oct 2020 02:58

I understand not all the subs out there are participating in the requirement by the MoD, but which Sub do you guys think is the best bet for Indian Navy requirements to take on the Chinese and paki sub force. I do not want to start any argument or anything, just want to know :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby krishna_krishna » 25 Oct 2020 07:37

Vidur wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote:


Thank you sir for your sharing your thoughts.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 25 Oct 2020 13:55

asbchakri wrote:I understand not all the subs out there are participating in the requirement by the MoD, but which Sub do you guys think is the best bet for Indian Navy requirements to take on the Chinese and paki sub force. I do not want to start any argument or anything, just want to know :)


Taking on chini or paki subs with other subs is ludicrous. You go after subs with fast moving and numerous surface vessels and aircraft.

Sub-hunting requires saturating large areas of water with sensors. You are searching for a needle in a haystack. With a sub, you are searching that needle with a hood over your head.

The only thing a conventional sub is good for is going after surface ships in our littoral. There is NO phoren navy able to place surface ships in India's green water in face of the IN surface fleet and IAF. (Barring the US 6th or 7th Fleets.)

India needs SSNs to meet naval threats in blue water. SSKs are nice to have but unneccesary IMHO if it costs us an arm and leg for phoren manufacture or "ToT".

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 25 Oct 2020 17:52

This is why the JV Brahmos mantra is the way to get both tech. and toy into service in the fastest time possible.Going it alone is a lonely experience akin to searching in a dark tunnel for a black cat
that isn't there! We're doing the same with the MR/LR SAM system with Israel,B-8, sometimes called,a tad late but on track.

Corvettes.As said many a time,a new smaller GP corvette design around 1750/2000t is required, with a slant towards ASW warfare with modular missile silos, which can be built quickly and economically .China is rapidly concluding a corvette class numbering approx.50! Our 4 P-28s are even larger than the Nilgiri class frigates of yore.

Subs.Of western sub designs,the German U-boats are more popular than the French or Swedish designs. But for the HDW non- scandal brouhaha,we would've continued building our U-209/1500 design at MDL,and would've beenright on track both with numbers and capability. The only drficiency that western subs have is the lack of advanced sub- launched missile systems unlike Ru subs which have LR Klub/ Kalibir missiles for land,anti-ship and anti-sub attack variants. Shkvall rocket torpedoes another item. It is AIP where Ru lags for conv. boats,otherwise ,as the venerable Kilo has shown,they are as quiet as any other western conventional sub,perhaps even more so. They also cost,a Kilo that is,around $100+M cheaper ,and can be built in just 2 years.

Next comes the UW environment where the subs are operating. Shallower waters like the Baltics, plus deep oceans too. Here N-subs are the weapons of choice given unlimited range,speed,numbers of weaponry,ability to carry spl. forces modules,UUVs,etc. Nothing like an N-sub, arring the littorals where a much smaller conv./ AIP boat can checkmate it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 25 Oct 2020 20:25

Philip wrote:The only drficiency that western subs have is the lack of advanced sub- launched missile systems unlike Ru subs which have LR Klub/ Kalibir missiles for land,anti-ship and anti-sub attack variants.

Tube launched Nirbhay and Brahmos-M can be adapted to be fired in any submarine , high unlikely we will purchase Klub missiles going forward.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 25 Oct 2020 21:31

Thread of all ship borne drones in Indian Navy:

https://twitter.com/Aditya_G_Social/sta ... 55456?s=20

Let me know if I missed any

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 26 Oct 2020 19:05

John wrote:Tube launched Nirbhay and Brahmos-M can be adapted to be fired in any submarine , high unlikely we will purchase Klub missiles going forward.


Based on the interview by Shiv Aroor with Brahmos CEO, I got the impression that Brahmos is not going to develop a torpedo launch version anytime soon. He said that theirs is a VLS system and its upto the Navy to take it or not.

Also Brahmos-M seemed at least 2 - 3 years away.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Lisa » 26 Oct 2020 23:43

Philip wrote:The only drficiency that western subs have is the lack of advanced sub- launched missile systems unlike Ru subs which have LR Klub/ Kalibir missiles for land,anti-ship and anti-sub attack variants.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(missile)

Operational range
Block II TLAM-A – 1,350 nmi (1,550 mi; 2,500 km)
Block III TLAM-C, Block IV TLAM-E – 900 nmi (1,000 mi; 1,700 km)
Block III TLAM-D – 700 nmi (810 mi; 1,300 km)[3]

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nachiket » 26 Oct 2020 23:49

Lisa wrote:
Philip wrote:The only drficiency that western subs have is the lack of advanced sub- launched missile systems unlike Ru subs which have LR Klub/ Kalibir missiles for land,anti-ship and anti-sub attack variants.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(missile)

Operational range
Block II TLAM-A – 1,350 nmi (1,550 mi; 2,500 km)
Block III TLAM-C, Block IV TLAM-E – 900 nmi (1,000 mi; 1,700 km)
Block III TLAM-D – 700 nmi (810 mi; 1,300 km)[3]

He is talking about Diesel-electric subs. TLAM's are only launched from American nuclear subs like the Ohio class. The western subs we are looking at like the Scorpene and U-214 cannot launch those. They can launch Exocets from their torpedo tubes though.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Lisa » 27 Oct 2020 00:22

I understand but it appears that I am missing something. A Tomahawk is the same size as a heavyweight torpedo, so why can such a device not be deployed from a Diesel-electric sub. I think it's more to do with who wants to buy and deploy it and not if it can be done by the west. Please correct my line of thought.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 27 Oct 2020 02:51

Lisa wrote:I understand but it appears that I am missing something. A Tomahawk is the same size as a heavyweight torpedo, so why can such a device not be deployed from a Diesel-electric sub. I think it's more to do with who wants to buy and deploy it and not if it can be done by the west. Please correct my line of thought.

Yea you can fire LACM submarine from any platform Russian or Western SSK. If you plan to use Klub family of missiles you will be limited to Russian platform as Russia will not only them to integrated with other platforms hence it is highly unlikely we will buy any more Klub missiles.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 27 Oct 2020 04:07

A VLS plug is preferable as tube launched missile magazines are limited as the size of std. torpedo rooms is usually able to accommodate a max. of 18 weapons. A plug will give additional firepower,8 to 10 SSMs.
We could go the Israeli Dolphin way as ellm in having two sizes of tubes,the larger 650mm tubes supposedly for their strategic deterrent missiles.
Late model Akulas too have two sizes.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 27 Oct 2020 04:16

Philip wrote:A VLS plug is preferable as tube launched missile magazines are limited as the size of std. torpedo rooms is usually able to accommodate a max. of 18 weapons. A plug will give additional firepower,8 to 10 SSMs.
We could go the Israeli Dolphin way as ellm in having two sizes of tubes,the larger 650mm tubes supposedly for their strategic deterrent missiles.
Late model Akulas too have two sizes.

VLS plug is not preferable because it would greatly impact the characteristics of a submarine especially for a SSK. There is reason why there is no SSK with a VLS plug.

Dolphin has larger tubes because their Popeye sub launched missile cannot be fired from standard tubes.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 27 Oct 2020 05:34

Apologies for the late reply....

krishna_krishna wrote:I appreciate inputs from Rakesh Sir as well, however since the Scorpene data leaks I am not a big fan of current design not sure how confident a sub captain would be knowing that major data is out with the adversaries on what frequencies the sub collects intelligence etc.

There's No Reason for India to Lose Sleep Over the Scorpene Leak
https://thewire.in/security/does-the-sc ... eak-matter
By Rear Admiral Raja Menon (Retd), 05 Sept 2016

Please read the above article. Will address any concerns you have about the Scorpene data leaks.

krishna_krishna wrote:I know how the HDW scandal put behind IN's sub ambition but please note that not all was lost the majority of workers were diverted to Arihant and so call it good leadership and farsightedness we were able to preserve niche experience we had gained. The damage was to MDL's infrastructure the volume it has build in terms of man and machinery bulk was a waste.

The experience has been gained again with MDL building the Scorpene in India. A newer design than the HDW 209. But, what would be criminal is to let the Scorpene line die and wait in deep space for Project 75I to come to fruition. That will be a repeat of the loss of skilled labour in the HDW 209 saga.

Order another 2 - 3 boats and the line will continue and more boats will join the IN quicker than it will take for the first Project 75I to arrive. A fleet of 8 - 9 Scorpenes is any day better than a fleet of 6 Scorpenes. If the Navy does not want the Type 636.3, then fine. But do not let the Scorpene line die.

By the way, for all the arguments against the Type 636.3....this is the same Indian Navy that is right now examining a Russian proposal of three used Kilo Class boats which were built in the late 80s and are lying docked somewhere in Russia. Heaven only knows in what material state these boats are in. Used Kilo boats are being considered by the Navy, but new Kilo boats are a no-no. Amazing logic! :) To be fair, the Indian Navy has yet to make a decision on the used Kilo boats. Another three Kilo boats - presently in service with the Indian Navy - will also undergo a modernization. So much for the Kilo boat not having any relevance.

krishna_krishna wrote:Having said that once scorpene was signed it was going to take time to build the capability of the yard, it took more time due to Frenchies playing hard ball on transfer of the critical equipment only after PMO intervened in 2018 that the program went into overdrive. Once the equipment was in, the yard was rolling out the subs like hot cakes. Looks like the leak was deliberate from competitors but loss was of IN's. Unless they give us tech that helps compensates for the loss (if such a thing exists) and we can then back port it to five subs we have we should not invest on additional scorpenes. Instead MDL should be encouraged to use the ToT received to start remanufacture of 209 or a modified 209 that will be its own design and will help us. Now they have the capabilities.

As I mentioned earlier, the Scorpene design is newer. It would be better if MDL built an improved Scorpene boat, based off the design of the current Scorpene.

krishna_krishna wrote:There was some analysis done by IN (need to search the link) TKMS Type 218, the design of which is optimised for the shallow Baltic Sea – has similarities with the Arabian Sea, where the waters 40 kilometres off Karachi are just 40 metres deep. The Type 218 is also reputedly the most silent design is far better option but again idea should be two private yards with L&T getting Kilo's and MDL modified HDW and HSL with nuke subs we have three capable yards with order book full for next 10 years.

Again this is one man's opinion FWIW.

The Type 218SG is a great boat. It would be a good contender for Project 75I, assuming everything goes at lightning speed in the Project 75I acquisition. But knowing our archaic procurement process, that will not happen. Revival of the sub fleet is most urgent. The numbers need to be built up. Options are there (some of which I have mentioned), but action needs to take place. Approvals need to happen and files need to move.

Vidur-ji's reply to you is apt and spot on. This one line really hurts bad, but is so true ---> "Its simply not possible to defend the nation on current defence budget." As the saying goes, Truth Hurts! And the second point he raised in his post, is why Project 75I will take forever to come to fruition.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 27 Oct 2020 23:15

That article from Adm Raja Menon is for keepers. Thanks for sharing.

We had an option of 3 scorpenes - I cannot fathom the reason for not exercising it. Whether leak has a real impact or not, I read this as a vote of no-confidence by IN. In comparison P-8I option was exercised without delay.

Project-75I is the perfect storm from a procurement standpoint as it mixes multiple aims:

1. Create a second submarine line
2. Create a submarine line based on SP model.
3. Buy a submarine with AIP
4. Buy a submarine with VLS (assumed).

With Mazagaon completing the Scorpene order, what sense is there to create a second line?
With Mazagaon SP is ruled out.
AIP model but from which company?
VLS sounds good but if its so expensive why not make more Arihants?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby krishna_krishna » 30 Oct 2020 23:00

Rakesh wrote:Apologies for the late reply....

Please read the above article. Will address any concerns you have about the Scorpene data leaks.


Thank you so much for sharing such a valuable article, if you read through this he mentions one scenario will this impact , i.e for LRMP with PN operating P-3C Orion and now the new Embraerer based MPA in the works this will be a big issue.

In the light of sensitivity of the subject I will say this, finding a sub is like finding an object in a dark room with a torch, if you know where to focus or look it makes your task easier that is all I will say. If we are able to tweak the parameters than we should go for more scorpenes and back port it to other during refit.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Oct 2020 11:33

Rakesh wrote:Vidur-ji's reply to you is apt and spot on. This one line really hurts bad, but is so true ---> "Its simply not possible to defend the nation on current defence budget." As the saying goes, Truth Hurts!

Agreed saar, but only partly. A lack of funds is just one part of the picture, a lack of proper procurement processes and planning is the greater reason imvho. The MRCA would have been done and dusted had the deal been signed for the M2K way back in the early 2000s. Ditto with the hawk. Scorpene. C17. And the list goes on....The decision even after selection can take eons - which results in repricing at newer rates. The costs in chai-biskoot alone would cover for all budgetary shortfalls!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 31 Oct 2020 13:16

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Vidur-ji's reply to you is apt and spot on. This one line really hurts bad, but is so true ---> "Its simply not possible to defend the nation on current defence budget." As the saying goes, Truth Hurts!

Agreed saar, but only partly. A lack of funds is just one part of the picture, a lack of proper procurement processes and planning is the greater reason imvho.


Compounding detriments. The truth is India might lack in comparison to Unkil or Cheen onlee. Just look at the mil budgets globally. We rank third. Also, India spend billions supporting the phoren MICs of both East and West. We have so many suitors from the upper echelons of arms producers. Would they pursue India so hard with their F-21s, their F-18s, their Kamovs, etc. if she were poor? No. We are not poor by any means. Not too nations could have shelled out $9B for 36 fighters or even consider $30B for MMRCA.

The drawn out procurement process and, especially, the poor planning makes things far worse than they are with the budget.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby andy B » 31 Oct 2020 14:51

chola wrote:
Compounding detriments. The truth is India might lack in comparison to Unkil or Cheen onlee. Just look at the mil budgets globally. We rank third. Also, India spend billions supporting the phoren MICs of both East and West. We have so many suitors from the upper echelons of arms producers. Would they pursue India so hard with their F-21s, their F-18s, their Kamovs, etc. if she were poor? No. We are not poor by any means. Not too nations could have shelled out $9B for 36 fighters or even consider $30B for MMRCA.

The drawn out procurement process and, especially, the poor planning makes things far worse than they are with the budget.


Spot on Chola ji, on top of that we have a huge outlay on pensions and personnel outlay given the manpower heavy natute of current set up. Hopefully as the armed forces get more streamlined going forward. Albeit, do it the way it suits us best not following what mythical western forces do....dont want to drag this into OT lest the dreaded bredator strike :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cyrano » 31 Oct 2020 15:03

There's No Reason for India to Lose Sleep Over the Scorpene Leak
https://thewire.in/security/does-the-sc ... eak-matter
By Rear Admiral Raja Menon (Retd), 05 Sept 2016


Submarine detection is one aspect. But knowing a sub's design intimately allows the adversary to get a good insight into its design features and limitations which will help right-guess the operational capabilities and constraints, armament and launch envelopes etc. For instance, knowing the optimal depth for launching torpedos or missiles from silos and their kill envelope, weapons range etc will be vital info for counter measures n'est-ce pas? Idem for onboard systems, battery life, sonar capabilities, turn around/maintenance procedures & down time etc etc. And one could go on and on. All of which can be put to use for a whole bunch of enemy evasion and action including finding critical/weak links and sabotaging them on land.

For those who argue leaking of such info is harmless, the question is "won't Indian Navy be thrilled to get similar info on it's enemies subs?"

Any defence leak is damaging. Not sure what purpose the respected Admiral's whitewashing serves. :-?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 31 Oct 2020 18:15

Not saying that a leak is not damaging, but being a buyer, and not a manufacturer, there is very little that you can control anyway. For instance if the Pakis manage to get some funds from their fourfathers tomorrow and decide to hold a MRCA of their own one can bet the Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen et al will be there for demo trials and evaluations.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chetak » 31 Oct 2020 18:31

Cyrano wrote:Submarine detection is one aspect. But knowing a sub's design intimately allows the adversary to get a good insight into its design features and limitations which will help right-guess the operational capabilities and constraints, armament and launch envelopes etc. For instance, knowing the optimal depth for launching torpedos or missiles from silos and their kill envelope, weapons range etc will be vital info for counter measures n'est-ce pas? Idem for onboard systems, battery life, sonar capabilities, turn around/maintenance procedures & down time etc etc. And one could go on and on. All of which can be put to use for a whole bunch of enemy evasion and action including finding critical/weak links and sabotaging them on land.

For those who argue leaking of such info is harmless, the question is "won't Indian Navy be thrilled to get similar info on it's enemies subs?"

Any defence leak is damaging. Not sure what purpose the respected Admiral's whitewashing serves. :-?

don't take this ancient mariner raja menon guy seriously.

dinosaurs never know what's happening.

especially if the dinosaur is a long standing card carrying member of the lootyens gang and that too, writing for the wire.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya G » 09 Nov 2020 05:01

Indian Navy Acquisitions - Planned (Nov 2020).

These have not yet been contracted for, so the horizon is anywhere from 10 to 20 years, if not more.

01 IAC-II
06 Next Generation Destroyer (NGD)
05 Next Generation Frigate (NGF)
07 Next Generation Corvette (NGC)
06 Next Generation Missile Vessel (NGMV)
06 Next Generation OPV (NGOPV)
12 MCMV
------
43 Surface combatants
------

06 SSN
06 SSK Project-75I
-----
12 submarines
-----

06 High Speed Landing Craft (HSLC)
02 Submarine Tender
03 Cadet Training Ship (CTS)
05 Diving Support Craft
04 Multi Purpose Vessel (MPV)
05 Survey Ships
01 Survey Training Vessel (STV)
05 Floatsam Recovery Boat
----
31 Other types inclusive auxiliaries
----

Close to a 100 ships of various types. The surface warship and auxiliary ship pipeline is quite robust given how many units are already on order and above is the pipeline beyond that.

I haven't listed the LHD/LPD requirement since that was officially cancelled.

Personally I would really like to see movement on MCM and Project-75I.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Yagnasri » 10 Nov 2020 11:12

How many decades it will take for us to actually get them? As on today there is no support form MOD for a Second Carrier of the size as per the IN desire. Most of the other ships etc are either on drawing boards or not even there. The fault mainly lies with our PSU Ship yards and MoD baboons of course.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 10 Nov 2020 23:43

The first tweet below is dated 30 Oct 2020.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 05985?s=20 ---> The Indian Navy seems to have rectified issues with its troubled KH-35E “Uran” (NATO SS-N-25 ‘Switchblade’) AShM - successful tests in the Arabian Sea Oct 23 from INS Prabal and BoB today - INS Kora, accurately hit derelict warships. “After a long long time” as a veteran put it.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 84160?s=20 ----> The Uran entered service in 1997 as primary weapon of the 3 Delhi class DDGs (being replaced by Brahmos), Prabal and Kora class corvettes).

https://twitter.com/rv_srivatsa/status/ ... 98083?s=20 ---> The problem with Uran was a propulsion one post launch. It was undertaken by GTRE, and they sorted the issue out. Prior to this it was supposed to be tested by Godavari Class* frigates, not sure if that happened. Issue however, resolved a year ago or so.
* Brahmaputra Class frigates, the improved Godavari Class.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 10 Nov 2020 23:44

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 56416?s=20 ----> Another problem, unlikely to be resolved soon, are the complications from managing the world’s most staggeringly diverse AShM inventory. Eight major missile types (3 of them with two variants), only 1 - the Sea Eagle - to be phased out very soon, and only 1, the Brahmos, indigenous.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 25344?s=20 ---> All new combatants will have Brahmos. Will be retrofitted on 3 Delhi Class in medium refits. 3 of 4 Rajput Class have them.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 11 Nov 2020 00:01

Sea Eagle is been phased out with DRDO's SR anti-ship missile...! So it will still be 9 types. Once Nirbhay's anti-ship version comes, it will become 10?

We might replace Klubs with Nirbhay though.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Nov 2020 07:59

nam wrote:Sea Eagle is been phased out with DRDO's SR anti-ship missile...! So it will still be 9 types. Once Nirbhay's anti-ship version comes, it will become 10?

We might replace Klubs with Nirbhay though.

How does a long ranged subsonic like nirbhay work for anti ship duties? Target tracking would be a pita.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Chinmay » 11 Nov 2020 13:44

Cain Marko wrote:How does a long ranged subsonic like nirbhay work for anti ship duties? Target tracking would be a pita.


USN is already on that path. All Tomahawks will have a moving target capability, with some hardware (active radar seeker) and software upgrades (datalinks?). The LRASM already can do that, so it isnt a massive technical challenge

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 11 Nov 2020 13:46

Sandeep is usually very reliable but I do know successful Uran firings in Indian waters in the last decade. Having said that propulsion problems did exist in Uran and good that an indigenous solution was developed.

nam wrote:Sea Eagle is been phased out with DRDO's SR anti-ship missile...

NASM-SR is a helicopter launched anti ship missile for Dhruv helicopters and possibly Seaking but no test firings have taken place so far. Sea Eagle still serves with Seaking helicopters. On Jaguars its been replaced by Harpoons.

NASM-SR will be a great option for our large fleet of OPV's.

Rakesh wrote:Another problem, unlikely to be resolved soon, are the complications from managing the world’s most staggeringly diverse AShM inventory.

The diversity is necessary to induct latest technology. For example, Harpoon replaced Sea Eagle in Jaguars but for Seahawk Romeo we chose Norwegian NSM because of its highly advanced IIR seeker with no emissions.

Rakesh wrote:Eight major missile types (3 of them with two variants)

Actually 5 of them have two variants -

3M-54E Klub - Anti Ship - Surface launch (Talwar, Shivalik), Submarine launch (Kilo)

Brahmos - (8 variants) Ship Vertical Launch (Land Attack, Anti Ship) Ship Inclined Launch (Land Attack, Anti Ship) Land Vertical Launch (Land Attack, Anti Ship) Air Launch (Land Attack, Anti Ship)

Harpoon - Air Launch - P-8I, Jaguar, Submarine Launch (Type 209.1500)

Uran - Air Launch - MiG-29K, Il-38, Surface launch (Delhi, Brahmaputra, Kora, Prabal)
Image

P-20 - Surface Launch (Godavari, Rajput, Kukhri, Veer) Land launch
Image

The sixth one - 3M-54E1 - Anti Ship - Submarine launch (Kilo). Can be Surface launched (Talwar, Shivalik) but that version not inducted.

Every IN fighter, MPA & combat helicopter has anti ship missiles. Every submarine has Anti Ship missiles. Two IAF fighter types have Anti Ship missiles.

Given this diversity, imagine the countermeasures the Chinese will have to think of :D

Why do you think Shri Ram and Arjun and other Maharathi's of mythology had multiple types of arrows instead of standardizing only on one :wink:
Because each arrow has a different profile and it makes opponent's countermeasure's difficult.

We will never standardize even when fully indigenous and already have (or will shortly have) the following anti ship missiles BrahMos, K-15, Nirbhay, NASM-SR, STAR derivative, HSTDV derivative.

I count six here :D

Image
As mentioned earlier, this IN press release clearly says "hits target" and contradicts Sandeep. Had the press release said "launched successfully", then I would have believed the aircraft launched the missile but the missile malfunctioned thereafter. However this release clearly says "hits target".

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karan M » 11 Nov 2020 20:28

Land based P-20s are being replaced by Brahmos as I recall. Didnt IN issue a tender for the same?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby george » 11 Nov 2020 20:33

Chinmay wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:How does a long ranged subsonic like nirbhay work for anti ship duties? Target tracking would be a pita.


USN is already on that path. All Tomahawks will have a moving target capability, with some hardware (active radar seeker) and software upgrades (datalinks?). The LRASM already can do that, so it isnt a massive technical challenge


Subsonic ASHM in modern warfare seems suspect, irrespective of range and low profile path. The Kolkata mast can see at least 20 km out at sea level which is adequate to neutralize any subsonics. THE US is investing in the LRASM for real adversaries. TH can be used to take out pirate ships or merchant vessals maybe but wont stand a chance against a modern destroyer with decent air defense.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 11 Nov 2020 20:39

george wrote:Subsonic ASHM in modern warfare seems suspect, irrespective of range and low profile path


Subsonic missiles have a place. They allow for larger magazines, longer ranges allow for efficient and cost effective multi-role weapons (both anti-ship and land attack) and the size and cost allows for lobbing multiple weapons at a target and challenging the fire control loop. You still have to shoot these things down especially when they are part of a coordinated attack that is introducing multiple missiles flying different profiles and attacking from different vectors. They are not a be all end all of AShM missiles but are part of a portfolio. A part that none of the developers are willing to let go as they build up their AshM inventory and replace aeging prior gen missiles.

george wrote:THE US is investing in the LRASM for real adversaries.


The LRASM is a niche weapon designed specifically for long range targeting in littoral and ISR-degraded environments. It is not a substitute for the TLAM-MST or the half a dozen other AshM programs the US DOD is currently funding.

george wrote:TH can be used to take out pirate ships or merchant vessals maybe but wont stand a chance against a modern destroyer with decent air defense.


Yeah if only one MST went up against one ship. As an element in a coordinated multi pronged attack, all bets are off against the PLAN air defenses.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby george » 11 Nov 2020 20:43

AD saturation can be achieved through decoys. No need to fire a dozen TLAMS. But I get your point. Like I said, its suspect, you need faster missiles to get the job done is my opinion.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 11 Nov 2020 20:46

george wrote:AD saturation can be achieved through decoys.


Can you point me to 1000+ km ranged naval VLS compatible decoy? Why would you trade precious real estate for a 1000 km decoy when that same space can be occupied by a 1000+ km weapon that can strike land and sea targets?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby george » 11 Nov 2020 20:49

Because a 1000 km TLAM or a 1000 km anything can house a dozen decoys.

Can I point to them, sure let me get them classified files for you :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 11 Nov 2020 20:51

george wrote:Because a 1000 km TLAM or a 1000 km anything can house a dozen decoys.


Are you saying that you can squeeze a dozen decoys in the same VLS real estate occupied by a TLAM/Nirbhay type weapon? If so, could you show me what such a dozen decoy carrier looks like and how all of this will work?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby george » 11 Nov 2020 20:55

brar_w wrote:
george wrote:Because a 1000 km TLAM or a 1000 km anything can house a dozen decoys.


Are you saying that you can squeeze a dozen decoys in the same VLS real estate occupied by a TLAM/Nirbhay type weapon? If so, could you show me what such a dozen decoy carrier looks like and how all of this will work?


Did I say VLS?
Decoys to fool air defense is not something new. The delivery platforms can be anything.

My argument was that using TLAMs for anti ship roles does not make sense cause its slow. You countered that they will be used for saturation attacks. I countered that saying, it makes more sense to use missile decoys.

Coming to 'squeezing' 12 decoys. You do realize that radar footprint is a function of shape and not size right?


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