Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 19 Aug 2018 17:49

The new engines are non-smokers! Pl. ck. your facts and these are now being manufactured at home.I would love to see internal exercise results putting the 29UGs against other IAF birds.If the 29s were so prone to tail-cracking, neither the German AF or the IAF would've considered operating them or in our context upgrading them too!

Moreover, new 29s are being built for the RuAF at just $29M each and for Egypt at just over $30M. Russia is also building more 29Ks for its own carrier . In my opinion, the MIG-29 is the fighter equiv. today of the Kilo sub.Still v.relevant with excellent performance, v.quick to build and comes at a real bargain pricewise.The Philippines are seriously considering 2 new Kilo 636.6s after Vietnam got delivery of her 6 similar Kilos for just $300M each, all delivered within 5 years.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 21 Aug 2018 23:50

Indian Navy – Flag Bearer For Making In India
http://www.businessworld.in/article/Ind ... 18-158259/

By Vice Admiral HCS Bisht (Retd) is an alumnus of Sainik School, Ghorakhal, Nainital, the National Defence Academy and the Naval Academy. He superannuated from the Indian Navy after almost 39 years of service on 31 October 2017. He had specialized in Gunnery and Missiles and is graduate of the 1992 batch of Royal Naval Staff College, Greenwich, London. He also attended the Naval Higher Command Course in 2001 and the NDC course in 2007. His important appointments have been Flag Officer Sea Training, Flag Officer Commanding Eastern Fleet, Director General Indian Coast Guard and Flag Officer Commanding in Chief Eastern Naval Command.

The Indian Navy has been a strong flag bearer of the Make in India campaign for decades. The result has been a very high level of indigenisation, which is really world class. Our indigenously built ships can be compared with the best in the world in their class.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 22 Aug 2018 05:41

Yes they are, but almost every programme is running late by years- the Scorpenes and IAC-1 prime examples and with huge cost escalation.Both the yards ( poor management and obsolete infrastructure) , IN ( for late decisions and frequent changes) and MOD ( for tardy release of funds and procurement decision delays) must share the responsibiliyy.The performance of pvt. yards vis-a-vis DPSU yards must be evaluated and rewarded if delivering on time and within budget.The better performing DPSU yards given more important projects than underperformers.The GOI has to take a call on modernisation and placing significant number of vessels per yard to ensure cost-effectiveness.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby dinesh_kimar » 22 Aug 2018 10:34

The Scorpene is a scam, with 50% cost overrun, 14 years late and 28% localization. If the NDA is looking for a UPA scam, this is it.

How is "Mazagaon Procured Items" imported from France ever equal to indigenous capability?

As of now, the Hull welding line is a French import, with steel also imported.

Welding consumables, pipes, tubes and hatch covers and CAD work are the localized component.

If they send Scorpene to France for mid life refit in 2022, after building it here, it would be confirmed that MDL was asleep at the wheel.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 22 Aug 2018 14:10

It's why I am against further Scorpenes , not to mention the disastrous OZ data leak critically compromising the sub's performance .If we want a western boat enter into a G-to-G deal with Germany for new U- Boats, since we have operated for 3 decades German U- boats.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Aug 2018 15:03

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/navy-may-pick-up-karakurt-corvettes-from-russia/article24593432.ece

The Navy is looking to acquire seven new-generation guided missile corvettes at a cost of $2 billion to replace its Russian 1241-RE missile boats. Several European and Russian shipyards have been eyeing the contract.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby yensoy » 22 Aug 2018 15:12

Aditya_V wrote:https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/navy-may-pick-up-karakurt-corvettes-from-russia/article24593432.ece

The Navy is looking to acquire seven new-generation guided missile corvettes at a cost of $2 billion to replace its Russian 1241-RE missile boats. Several European and Russian shipyards have been eyeing the contract.


Nowhere in the article does it imply that Navy will pick up these boats. "may" is highly overrated in the headline, no different from a headline saying "You may win the lottery today". Such articles should have "Ad" printed all over them.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 22 Aug 2018 19:02

I think the requirement is a serious one as the Tarantulas are coming to their end of lifespan.Russia in another report has offered Kalibir equipped missile corvettes Pricewise too they will also have a distinct advantage over European offers which are usually around 20% costlier than Ru milware and do not havd znything like Kalibir in their arsenal. What would be interesting is for our OPVs to be upgraded with extra weaponry, with with an ASW package plus the Nirbhay LRCM.This could complement any missile corvette design we acquire from abroad.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 22 Aug 2018 20:19

dinesh_kimar wrote:The Scorpene is a scam, with 50% cost overrun, 14 years late and 28% localization. If the NDA is looking for a UPA scam, this is it.

How is "Mazagaon Procured Items" imported from France ever equal to indigenous capability?

As of now, the Hull welding line is a French import, with steel also imported.

Welding consumables, pipes, tubes and hatch covers and CAD work are the localized component.

If they send Scorpene to France for mid life refit in 2022, after building it here, it would be confirmed that MDL was asleep at the wheel.

Keep in mind Scorpene itself is not a successful export design by any means it only managed to get export orders from Chile, Malaysia and Brazil (was offered nuclear SSN tech as a sweetner). I was highly critical of the deal in BR when it was signed and kept stating that U-209 construction should be restarted.

I believe the deal was heavily pushed by MDL which was looking at additional $$ that comes for retooling, knowledge transfer and SY upgrades that comes with this deal. Also MOD wanted a deal with France for political purpose for internationally and also to show that we have acquired something better than Agosta 90B (which itself stands as a disaster for PN),

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 22 Aug 2018 21:27

we should be able to design and build our own corvette's locally. they are lowest end of the food chain.

kalibr type weapons on corvettes make sense on corvettes when they can launch from sanitized areas .... for us, they would run out of fuel before crossing indonesia.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby abhik » 22 Aug 2018 22:02

Roosi Corvettes are armed with long-range cruise missiles as they cannot have land based ones due to treaty, our usecase is more like the US (or I at least I wish) with the main carriers being destroyers/crusiers which prowl the oceans half way round the world. Any thing in the immediate neighborhood can be better handled with land based launcher

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ShauryaT » 22 Aug 2018 22:40

abhik wrote:Roosi Corvettes are armed with long-range cruise missiles as they cannot have land based ones due to treaty, our usecase is more like the US (or I at least I wish) with the main carriers being destroyers/crusiers which prowl the oceans half way round the world. Any thing in the immediate neighborhood can be better handled with land based launcher
Which treaty limits Russian land-based cruise missile launchers?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 22 Aug 2018 22:57

ShauryaT wrote:
abhik wrote:Roosi Corvettes are armed with long-range cruise missiles as they cannot have land based ones due to treaty, our usecase is more like the US (or I at least I wish) with the main carriers being destroyers/crusiers which prowl the oceans half way round the world. Any thing in the immediate neighborhood can be better handled with land based launcher
Which treaty limits Russian land-based cruise missile launchers?

The INF treaty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermedi ... ces_Treaty

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ShauryaT » 23 Aug 2018 00:15

^Thanks. For some reason, I was associating INF with only BM and nuclear payloads.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Aug 2018 04:28

Singha wrote:we should be able to design and build our own corvette's locally. they are lowest end of the food chain.

kalibr type weapons on corvettes make sense on corvettes when they can launch from sanitized areas .... for us, they would run out of fuel before crossing indonesia.

I think the need behind such a deal would be speed of delivery more than anything else.. There are some in various stages of construction in Russia and IN might just scoop up a few of these like the latest frigate deal.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 23 Aug 2018 08:04

there is a canal connecting the black sea to caspian sea and another one to baltic sea iirc.
their buyan corvettes move around using this and launched their famous strike1 on syria from near the iranian coast.
technically they could park a buyan near moscow on some canal and launch from there and still keep the INF treaty :D

volga baltic waterway - it connects their most ancient and cultural core cities - volgograd(ex stalingrad), saratov, rostov, samarra, kazan, nizhny novgorod and st petersburg - it is the heartland of the bear's vast empire. the don river leads upto voronezh

Image

volga don canal) is a canal which connects the Volga River and the Don River at their closest points. Opened in 1952, the length of the waterway is 101 km (63 mi), 45 km (28 mi) through rivers and reservoirs.

The canal forms a part of the Unified Deep Water System of European Russia. Together with the lower Volga and the lower Don, the Volga–Don Canal provides the most direct navigable connection between the Caspian Sea and the Sea of Azov, the Black Sea, and thus the world's oceans.
Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ramana » 23 Aug 2018 20:13

GD,
While I like your enthusiasm please don't spam us with irrelevant maps and pictures.
At a stretch your maps belong to India Russia thread.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 24 Aug 2018 03:53

Tx. for the maps, etc.Excellent for the Ru td. as Ramana says.What is most interesting is the curved proper profile.It shows that if a canal is built from St.Petersburg through the two lakes, Onega and Ladoga, to Archangel'sk, Russia will have a passage from the Baltic to the Arctic Sea, a great strategic waterway.

This brings back in our context the vexing issue of the Ram-Sethu passage in the Palk Straits.A reconfigured route would be of great strategic value in allowing our naval assets to move freely between the Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal.Look what the US did a century ago with the Panama Canal and Lessops with the Suez Canal.
This must be executed asap.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Neela » 24 Aug 2018 11:07

http://www.pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePage.aspx?PRID=1543718#.W36ogs7DL54.twitter


Ministry of Defence
Indian Navy Seeks to Induct Newer and Advanced Technologies
Posted On: 23 AUG 2018 5:53PM by PIB Delhi
An exclusive interaction session was organized by the Indian Navy with Professor Emeritus Commodore Arogyaswami Joseph Paulraj (Retd) from Stanford University at Kota House on 22 August 2018.

Hosted by Vice Admiral GS Pabby, AVSM, VSM, Chief of Materiel and all the technical Flag Officers stationed at New Delhi, some of the retired officers who have held important assignments in the Navy and DRDO, and those involved with scientific and Defence R&D also attended this interaction.

Professor Paulraj is a global icon in wireless technology and inventor of MIMO, which is the heart of the current high speed WiFi and 4G mobile systems. He is a recipient of the Padma Bhushan in 2010 besides top global honours - the IEEE Alexander Graham Bell Medal in 2011, the prestigious 2014 Marconi Society Prize and has been inducted into the US Patent Trademark Office National Inventors Hall of Fame in 2018.

On the discussions to enhance self-reliance of Indian defence in critical advanced technologies, Commodore Paulraj brought out the need to invest much more in R&D sectors, including design and fabrication, artificial intelligence, block chain and quantum computing. He spoke of requirement of enhanced application-based research in IITs and need for more Indian wireless startups to channelize some of the available good human resource currently working for the global MNCs. A joint meeting is planned with IIT Heads to identify areas for future work by the Indian Navy. Capt Shekhar Dutt, SM, IAS (Retd) former Defence Secretary and Governor of Chhattisgarh, also participated in the interaction and concurred with the sentiments expressed by Paulraj.

Prof AJ Paulraj is currently Chairman of Department of Telecom Steering Committee to deliberate and finalise Vision, Mission, Goals and Roadmaps for 5G India - 2020. His advice is being sought at the highest levels of the Government of India’s Ministries of Communication, Electronics and Information Technology and Defence Production. He regularly interacts with the Boards of top Indian academic institutions and telecommunication corporations.

******

DKS/AC

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 24 Aug 2018 17:31

It's great that Prof.Paulraj is helping us again.He was the genius behind our sonar development in years gone by.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby VishalJ » 25 Aug 2018 15:20

India Clears Decks For 24 American MH-60 Romeo Helicopters For Navy

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/08 ... ppers.html

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 25 Aug 2018 16:54

Ibnlive

The DAC approved procurement of 111 utility helicopters for the Indian Navy at a cost of over Rs 21,000 crores," said a senior official.

The official said the DAC also granted approval to a few other procurement proposals amounting to approximately Rs 24,879 crore which included approval for acquisition of 150 indigenously designed and developed 155 mm advanced towed artillery gun systems for the Army at an approximate cost of Rs 3,364 crores.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 25 Aug 2018 16:58

Livefist

Likely contenders in the NUH fight include the Airbus Helicopters AS565 Panther, Bell 429, LockheedMartin-Sikorsky S-76D and, perhaps the AgustaWestland AW 109.

Er why not our own luh ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby yensoy » 25 Aug 2018 17:37

Singha wrote:Livefist

Likely contenders in the NUH fight include the Airbus Helicopters AS565 Panther, Bell 429, LockheedMartin-Sikorsky S-76D and, perhaps the AgustaWestland AW 109.

Er why not our own luh ?


All the proposed imports are twin engine; overall power/payload is between 1 and 1.5 of LUH. The Chetaks being replaced are single engine and subsumed in capabilities by LUH. How about the Ka-226 already ordered by IA/IAF which is closer in specs? Or a split order between LUH and Western imports.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 25 Aug 2018 17:49

Singha wrote:Livefist

Likely contenders in the NUH fight include the Airbus Helicopters AS565 Panther, Bell 429, LockheedMartin-Sikorsky S-76D and, perhaps the AgustaWestland AW 109.

Er why not our own luh ?


My god, 21000 crores for 111 Dhruv-sized helos like the Panther and S-76 and our product is not on the list.

Oh well, another $3B for someone else’s MIC.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Viv S » 25 Aug 2018 18:17

Singha wrote:Livefist

Likely contenders in the NUH fight include the Airbus Helicopters AS565 Panther, Bell 429, LockheedMartin-Sikorsky S-76D and, perhaps the AgustaWestland AW 109.

Er why not our own luh ?

Our own ALH I think you mean. GoD MoD works in mysterious ways.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 25 Aug 2018 20:07

VishalJ wrote:India Clears Decks For 24 American MH-60 Romeo Helicopters For Navy

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/08 ... ppers.html

Awesome news. Lockheed Martin’s MH-60R is a true beast and will be a welcome addition to the Indian Navy. The Sea Kings are long in the tooth and need replacement ASAP.

With the towed array sonar ordered as well, the IN can perform effective anti-submarine warfare.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 25 Aug 2018 21:17

Singha wrote:Livefist

Likely contenders in the NUH fight include the Airbus Helicopters AS565 Panther, Bell 429, LockheedMartin-Sikorsky S-76D and, perhaps the AgustaWestland AW 109.

Er why not our own luh ?


some of these bideshi worthies do not even have military versions it seems. i checked bell429 and S76D - no asw version exists, let alone carrying torpedoes . aw109 entered service in 1971 ...

a decade ago I heard the need for 127 sea king sized helis ..... NH90 was the buzzword those days .... later SH60 ..... but now with costs too much I think they have abandoned plans and want a low cost seakhawkski that can deliver one torpedoa and do basic work.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rishi_Tri » 25 Aug 2018 21:53

Tweeted to Def Minister on Utility Helos. I shall call it the dumbest and most short sighted decision of recent times. LUH is close to IOC. There are hundreds required for Army, Airforce, Navy and we propose contract with unknown foreign Helo! This would have been best chance of involving Private Industry for Bulk Order of Atleast 500 LUHs and thus build up capability. Oh Man!!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chetak » 25 Aug 2018 23:13

Philip wrote:It's great that Prof.Paulraj is helping us again.He was the genius behind our sonar development in years gone by.


he is in India fairly frequently.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby sanjaykumar » 26 Aug 2018 00:13

He has a sterling CV, according to Wiki. And still involved with Indian issues. Fabulous.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 26 Aug 2018 12:45

Ka-226 naval variant has been offered and in the running, touted as a cost-effective answer having been selected for the IA as well, to be made in India.The Q is how effective as a naval LUH with some ASW weaponry and sensors will it be against its competitors.Pricewise it should be v.competitive.

The need is v.v.urgent as sev.warships do not have ane helos at all and those requiring 2 helos are making do with just one.Trials and testing of the desi LUH will take time.One is sure that when it is fully developed orders will be made in large qty. for all 3 services.

The approval of naval helos is excellent news, but the SK replacements require many more numbers.All Kamovs are being upgraded and I think a few more AEW KA-31s are on the anvil , but the no of MH-60s could be increased to at least 36 to 40 as we need SK replacements for the 2 carriets too apart from DDGs and FFGs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 26 Aug 2018 13:47

^^^ Hell no. The Ka-226 is already an ill-conceived buy for the Army that cuts directly into orders for our LUH. No more and definitely not for the Navy.

The urgent argument is bull manure when even the army version of this gimmicky helo (sorry the whole interchangeable pallet thing feels PT Barnum) will not come onboard before the LUH is done testing and ready. This naval Ka-226 will be every bit as late and as unproven as the LUH so why bother.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby dinesh_kimar » 26 Aug 2018 23:14

John wrote:Keep in mind Scorpene itself is not a successful export design by any means it only managed to get export orders from Chile, Malaysia and Brazil (was offered nuclear SSN tech as a sweetner).


While you are indeed correct, the cause for procuring Scorpene is interesting.

All the above 4 nations mentioned already use Type 209. It was probably getting long in tooth, so choice made for capability up gradation in 2000-2015 timeline was either upgraded Type 209, Type 214 or Scorpene.

In above mentioned timeline, sales were as follows:

Type 209- 12 nos. Including Chango Bongo. (Lifetime 63 nos.)

Type 214- 15 nos. ( 23 including. Type 212).

Scorpene - 14 nos. ( 18 including Spanish S-80 under construction).

The overall impact/ satisfaction seems maximum on U- 209, with least negative feedback, and less adverse remarks from public accounting department of respective country. Full maintenance TOT, transfer of electronic mast, etc. Reported by S. American clients.

Scorpene seems worst in levels of satisfaction by clients, TOT levels, adverse feedback, etc. The capability seems better than 209, but high client dissatisfaction / bribery scandal reported.

Type 214 somewhere in between, mainly due to S. Korea reporting performance issues, since fixed. No issues seen with ToT.


The obvious choice was to make do with more 209s, and also order few Type 214.

The German yard is the busiest, yet have a reputation for quality and reliability dating back to WW1.

The French are more likely to blame customers for non delivery of contractual obligations, the same ones who report high satisfaction level with German shipyard.

Hence, better to avoid them in future.

Russian Kilo should have transferred full maintenance to India, after all 10 orders were placed.

If not forthcoming, no need future orders.

The most common sense solution was develop a 209 based solution. It's still good enough for S. Korea, Indonesia, S. Africa and Greece.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 27 Aug 2018 06:05

Ru OEM claims naval version of the KA-226 developed even for their uses, but one has not seen any deliveries as yet.It is twin-engined an advantage over SE LUHs in maritime ops.

U-boats must replace the Scorpene line in a G-2-G deal.The Scorpene data leak has compromised the sub and its Exocet sub-launched missiles are decidely knferior to our Klub variants on our Kilos.If we can do the same G-2-G deal for US helos why not for subs too? The U-boat deal need not interfere with the P-75I evaluation.It could be looked at as a follow on order of the former U-209 procurement.The Germans have developed the Dolfin design for the Israelis with two sizes of TTs.Whatever design we choose, their AIP system is a proven one.Mesma on the Scorpene is less popular than the fuel-cell system and our desi system is still not proven on any sub.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 27 Aug 2018 11:53

The NLUH decision is certainly stupid. For ships that can carry only 1 utility helo, the ALH itself would be good enough, in fact much better then all the other proposed helicopters. It will be heavier at 5.5 tons, as compare to all the rest, but can bring much better capabilities. Plus with so many of them built for the IA and IAF and more being made, plus a few being operated by the Navy itself, I am sure the cost would not be too high.

For the rest of the ships, a naval version of our LUH should have been chosen. The requirement for twin engines, has closed this option. However, it should certainly be re-examined. If not then choose the naval version of Ka-226 and scrape the IA/IAF requirement for the same. LUH for entire 400 no. requirement for IA/IAF.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Aug 2018 15:00

mody wrote:The NLUH decision is certainly stupid. For ships that can carry only 1 utility helo, the ALH itself would be good enough, in fact much better then all the other proposed helicopters. It will be heavier at 5.5 tons, as compare to all the rest, but can bring much better capabilities. Plus with so many of them built for the IA and IAF and more being made, plus a few being operated by the Navy itself, I am sure the cost would not be too high.

For the rest of the ships, a naval version of our LUH should have been chosen. The requirement for twin engines, has closed this option. However, it should certainly be re-examined. If not then choose the naval version of Ka-226 and scrape the IA/IAF requirement for the same. LUH for entire 400 no. requirement for IA/IAF.

Was there not something about folding the main rotor etc....
Manual fomding was demoed.
But lets revisit this....

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby souravB » 27 Aug 2018 16:44

Navy initially had 3 issues with ALH
Non-folding rotors
difficult to implement on the Hingeless design. The servos for automatic folding will add weight.
Solution provided was manual folding but still the overall diameter of folded blades was around 5m which is more than Navy's requirement of 3.5m
strengthening of undercarriage
difficult to do due to weight gain. HAL is working on it.
More Time on Task
Navy's requirement of more than 2 hrs with naval payload is difficult for even 10-14T helis.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 27 Aug 2018 17:37

Finally some succor. X-posting from Indian Military Helicopters dhaga.

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Government just cleared the purchase of 24 MH-60 to replace the ageing Sea Kings

India Clears Decks For 24 American MH-60 Romeo Helicopters For Navy

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 27 Aug 2018 19:57

Finally some good news for the IN.There multi-role helos carry several good features like glass cockpits, LW TTs, auto-folding rotors, sensors, etc.Unit cost arounx $45 + M.
The order should be increased keeping in mind the arrival of IAC-1 within a couple of years too apart from the DDG/ FFG requirements.

The Hindu reported that the DRDO has developed a new ASW rocket with a range of 8.5km.Current range of the RBU projectiles is just under 6km.The IN wanted an ER projectile.


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