Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11005
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Postby Gagan » 27 Aug 2018 20:52

Where is HAL's medium lift helicopter hain ji?
HAL is on a pancch varshiya program to decide IF they'll ever get around to making them or what?
India is the only country in the world - THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, where even if there is a domestically built product, the MOD and Services will tweak the RFP to exclude the domestic product.
Their excuse will be either this is not built by a Sarkari Factory, or that it uses child labour or that not enough wimmens representation is there or some such holier than thou argument and try to discard the product.

GoI will NOT, repeat NOT let private industry develop on its own - the struggles of the Kalyani group is an example. They manufacture and supply complex parts to BMW and Mercedes in Germany, have built artillery guns decades ago, but harami defence ministers and their cronies in the MoD will scuttle any purchase.
TATAs can build body parts for the C-130 or multiple Americal Helos, but Netas and Babus want ghoos from defence agents and won't give the TATAs contracts directly.

HAL will build 2 LCAs in a year, and will have trouble with one of them, do a shoddy, sarkari style job of finishing it at that, and GoI will talk about exporting LCAs, but will NOT, repeat NOT set up a few lines with private industry. Why, so that 126 planes from videsh can be contracted for.

It is sad to see the Government itself killing domestic industry with one excuse or the other.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5973
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 31 Aug 2018 06:01

For what we have been arguing on BRF for the longest time now!!

Navy’s eagerness to buy $20 billion aircraft carrier cuts into funds for Army & Air Force
https://theprint.in/opinion/navys-eager ... ce/108323/

By Saurav Jha, 30 August 2018

Indeed, a case could be made for building a more modest INS Vishal, which would basically be an enlarged INS Vikrant and would host a group of indigenous LCA-Navy Mark 2 fighters that are currently under development. To be sure, this option might not easily find favour with the Navy, which obviously does not want the Vishal to be just a modest step-up from its current carriers.

Nonetheless, a more limited INS Vishal can be built relatively quickly and economically by CSL, which is currently setting up a new dry dock suitable for building super-carriers. For now, the Navy can consider setting up a ‘joint project body’ with the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on the lines of ‘Project Akanksha’, which oversees India’s nuclear submarine projects, to commence construction on a large nuclear-powered aircraft carrier in the late 2020s. By that time, New Delhi will likely be able to afford it.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2830
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 31 Aug 2018 09:20

Okay, I’ve given up hope of the 65K-ton carrier. Please, please, PLEASE decide on something so we can save the workforce and supply chain painstakingly developed through Vikrant.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby souravB » 31 Aug 2018 14:17

Maybe one or two smaller heli carriers can be of use in the meantime.
  • Keeps the workforce and supply chain intact
  • Can be used for ASW and force projection in the littoral waters
  • freeing up the lone A/C for blue-water deployment
We can make them in a way that, with a fitting those can house a very small number of aircrafts too if required. Just like Japan.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3977
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kartik » 31 Aug 2018 22:11

From AW&ST


Indian Navy Carrier Gets Hydraulic Upgrades


BENGALURU—India’s sole aircraft carrier, the INS Vikramaditya, is receiving upgraded marine hydraulic systems to help enhance aircraft operations of the ship.

Used for refueling, cleaning and pressurization of hydraulic systems aboard aircraft, the systems will be installed by Technodinamika, a subsidiary of Russia’s Rostec State Corp., with work due to be complete by May 2019. Technodinamika focuses on development, manufacturing and after-sale services of civil and military aircraft.

“Preparation is already underway,” Technodinamika chief executive Igor Nasenkov says. “Assembling is likely to commence in October that will be completed by May next year.”

Aboard the Vikramaditya—a refurbished Russian carrier—the GS-1MF hydraulic system will service helicopters, while the GS-3 system will service fixed-wing aircraft.

The upgrades and sea trials will be carried out in India, according to an official with the country’s state-run Defense and Research Organization.

INS Vikramaditya is 284 m (930 ft.) long and 60 m high. The vessel weighs 40,000 tons, making it the biggest and heaviest ship in the Indian navy. The carrier’s air wing consists of 30 MiG-29K fighters and six Kamov helicopters.

The aircraft carrier, worth about $2.3 billion, was commissioned into the Indian Navy in 2013 at the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk in northern Russia. Its home port is in Karwar in the south Indian state of Karnataka.

The Indian Navy has pushed for a carrier force of three ships—one each for the eastern and western seaboards, with one carrier as a standby to make up for the time taken for overhaul and repair.

India’s first domestically built aircraft carrier, the INS Vikrant, is under construction at the Cochin Shipyard Ltd. (CSL). It is expected to join the Indian Navy by 2020.

mody
BRFite
Posts: 405
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 01 Sep 2018 15:10

An ideal solution would be to have a 60K ton carrier, with EMALS and LCA MK2 as the plane. Having EMALS will allow the LCA MK2, to be launched with full internal fuel and also external fuel tanks. It will also allows the carrier to have E2D hawkeye type of aircrafts.

The cost of the EMAL would be the factor. Also, the power requirements for EMALS would have to be considered. Would nuclear power be required to sustain high tempo operations with EMALS, or conventional turbine and diesel engines would suffice.

The only drawback for the LCA-MK2 in this scenario would be that it is single engined. However, if the plane is going to use the GE F414 engine, then it is quite reliable. Also, IN has in the past used single engine planes from carriers and now with the F35, the US and UK along with maybe Japan will also be using a single engine plane from a carrier.

Prithwiraj
BRFite
Posts: 121
Joined: 21 Dec 2016 18:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Prithwiraj » 01 Sep 2018 15:38

Is INS Shivalik back in action after the fire beginning of this year?

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1576
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 01 Sep 2018 15:46

chola wrote:Okay, I’ve given up hope of the 65K-ton carrier. Please, please, PLEASE decide on something so we can save the workforce and supply chain painstakingly developed through Vikrant.


Built another Vikrant. 65k can start around 2026-27, when we are 6-7 trillion. Given that carriers are maintenance hogs. makes sense to have one more Vikrant. But then I don't know how much is IN interested in this idea.

Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kakarat » 01 Sep 2018 16:44

I think the best way forward is to build a INS Virrat before a INS Vishal based on the INS Vikrant modified in line with the french Aircraft Carrier Charles de Gaulle but non nuclear. Both INS Vikrant and Charles de Gaulle are similar in size. INS Virrat should be a CATOBAR-type carrier based on the INS Vikrant with LCA Navy MK-II, this way experience gained from INS Vikrant can be taken forward with lesser cost and the construction can be faster with lessons from INS Vikrant

Image

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2830
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 01 Sep 2018 17:11

I like the smaller-CATOBAR-based-on-the-Vikrant idea very much.

The De Guaulle at the same 40k tons can carry up to 40 aircraft including the Rafale and, most importantly, E-2 AEW aircraft too.

Image

Of course, we need to shave off the ramp and widen the lifts but I can imagine it being much cheaper than a clean sheet design for a 65k ton ship.

I salivate at the idea!

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1576
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 01 Sep 2018 20:32

Does anyone have an idea of the current status of OPVs been built at Reliance Shipyard?

They have made a mess of what would have opened up the private sector for large ship contracts.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63610
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 01 Sep 2018 21:16

Emals could perhaps he helped with a diesel electric locomotive type power plant. Compact proven and can run for days hauling mile trains in hostile weather. Cots. Big low rpm torque motors toofor deck edge lifts to bring up 2 fighters in one go

Maybe add tesla type power banks as armour belt

It can be done its the best idea to build a cdg nuova than break the bank on a supercarrier

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3247
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Sep 2018 21:43

Frankly, I'd just be grateful if they built a second d carrier in the same class. Maybe slightly larger. Or will land up waiting for another 15 years.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 01 Sep 2018 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3247
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Sep 2018 22:14

And btw, before all this fantasizing, good people need to consider the uncomfortable question... What if US sanctions India for pursuing an independent procurement policy, and in the process embargoes the engine on the LCA?

Eric Thompson
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 03 Sep 2011 04:48
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Eric Thompson » 01 Sep 2018 22:20

Cain Marko wrote:And btw, before all this fantasizing, good people need to consider the uncomfortable question... What if US sanctions India for pursuing an independent procurement policy, and in the process embargoes the engine on the LCA?


It is not a question of "If" but "when" would India would get sanctioned.

I expect India to get sanctioned the day UPA comes back to power. In the meantime Modi would ensure that India loses its strategic autonomy and independence to US by getting into agreements like LSA, BECA, CISMOA etc. while procuring more and more US equipment to increase the leverage of US to sanction a wider ranger of Indian equipment.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3247
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Sep 2018 22:36

I frankly don't think it is a modi vs upa thing here. The defence forces were not exactly kept in good shape during the 10 years of upa. Anyway this is beside the point. My concern is for the LCA....

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2830
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 02 Sep 2018 00:34

Cain Marko wrote:Frankly, I'd just be grateful if they built a second d carrier in the same class. Maybe slightly larger. Or will land up waiting for another 15 years.


I’m resigned to waiting a dozen years of building for any carrier.

I just don’t want to add another 5 or 10 years on top of that waiting for a goddam decision. All the while the skills and supply chain from Vikrant atrophy.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6977
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Prasad » 02 Sep 2018 12:43

EMALS, CATOBAR etc will need quite a few years just for design. I don't remember seeing any design work even beginning on such a 45-50K follow-on carrier. How long will that take to build compared to a carbon copy of the IAC-1?

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4259
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 02 Sep 2018 13:02

Our first priority should be to be get larger DDG and good number of SSNs. Aircraft carriers can come later.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6792
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 02 Sep 2018 19:55

John wrote:Back in 2008 P-8s procurement was under heavy scrutiny in US only well after India's order did P-8 get sufficient orders in the US so i would say it was risky if US had backtracked and decided to not go with P-8.


The US Navy by law could only place FIRM orders outside of single year budget after the program had reached a certain milestone. So there is absolutely no way to say that that the P-8 only got sufficient orders after a certain point. The SAR on it has been published each year starting with the year it entered EMD and that document states the exact amount of P-8's the US Navy told the DOD (which in turn told the US Congress) it wished to procure over the program life.

When the MMA (later designated the P-8) started its development, the US Navy put the procurement quantity at 115 aircraft. A few years later they adjusted this number down by 1 to 114 and then adjusted it up to 117 in 2010. The current number is around 109 I think primarily because of higher fleet availability compared to what they estimated when they came up with the initial estimate. The MMA was always expected to replace the legacy fleet and was always going to be procured in large quantities.

The plan was to develop the MMA (for which Boeing received a contract in 2004 for the Systems development phase which included 3 prototypes), then once the prototypes were being produced place a follow-on order for 4 aircraft (to be used OPEVAL) and then award the first Low Rate Initial Production contract (LRIP) around 2010 to begin buying aircraft for operational units. Only once it was sufficiently mature and developed did the USN obtain permission to enter into a Multi-Year procurement deal and award bulk contracts (I believe this started with Lot-3 or 4).

Below is an exhaustive milestone summary for the prorgam from its inception through the end of 2014:

February 29, 2000: The Broad Area Maritime and Littoral Armed Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance Mission Needs Statement was validated and approved by the JROC.

April 17, 2000: The P-8A Poseidon (formerly Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA)) program received Milestone 0 approval to enter Concept Exploration.

January 18, 2002: P-8A received approval to enter the Component Advanced Development (CAD) work effort on January 18, 2002. CAD included competitively awarded contracts to Lockheed Martin for the Orion 21 concept (P-3 derivative) and to Boeing for the military derivative of the 737 aircraft.

December 3, 2003: The MMA ORD/CDD was validated and approved by JROC.

May 28, 2004: The USD (AT&L) approved the program and entry into System Development and Demonstration (SDD) after completing a successful Milestone (MS) B DAB Review.

June 4, 2004: MS B ADM signed.

June 14, 2004: The SDD contract was awarded to BDS (formerly, McDonnell Douglas Corporation, a wholly-owned subsidiary of The Boeing Company) for the 737-800 ERX based system. The contracted effort included the design and development of Systems Integration Labs and the design, development, and build of ground and flight test articles.

June 11-15, 2007: The P-8A program conducted the Critical Design Review.

August 27, 2007: The P-8A program completed the Design Readiness Review.

December 2007: The P-8A program initiated the fabrication of its first flight test aircraft at Spirit AeroSystems in Wichita, Kansas.

April 2008: The P-8A program conducted the Integration Readiness Review. December 23, 2008: The Record of Decision was approved for basing 12 P-8A squadrons and 1 FRS at NAS Jacksonville, Florida, NAS Whidbey Island, Washington, and Marine Corps Base Hawaii at Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii.

April 2009: Australia joined as a cooperative partner of P-8A Inc 2. The Inc 2 Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) authorizes Australian participation in P-8A Inc 2 development.

April 13, 2009: The P-8A program completed the Interim Program Review and awarded the Advance Acquisition Contract (AAC) for LRIP Advance Procurement (AP).

May 2009: The P-8A program conducted Test Readiness Reviews for the first flight test aircraft and the first ground test aircraft for static test.
September 2009: The Operational Assessment was initiated utilizing the Weapon System Integration Lab.

August 27, 2010: The USD (AT&L) signed the MS C ADM granting authorization to: proceed with LRIP Lots I through III that included 6 aircraft in FY 2010, 7 aircraft in FY 2011, and 11 aircraft in FY 2012. In addition, the MS C ADM approved the request to obligate FY 2012 AP funding for FRP and authorized the Navy to proceed with Automatic Identification System, MAC, High Altitude ASW Weapon Capability, Rapid Capability Insertion, Acoustics Algorithms, and Tactical Operations Center updates
.
January 21, 2011: The LRIP Lot I contract was definitized for six aircraft. April 13, 2011: The USD (AT&L) documented in a Memorandum for the Record that the P-8A program satisfied the MS C ADM waived affordability and funding provisions of section 2366b of title 10, United States Code (U.S.C.). At MS C, the USD (AT&L) certified the program in accordance with section 2366b of Title 10, U.S.C., waiving two elements in that certification, namely 2366b(a)(l)(B) and 2366b(a)(1)(D), affordability and funding.

November 3, 2011: The LRIP Lot II contract was definitized for seven aircraft. March 2012: The Production, Sustainment, and Follow-on Development MOU authorizes Australian procurement of Inc 2 capable P-8 aircraft, participation in development of common sustainment strategies for the life of the aircraft, and participation in development of new platform capabilities.

September 21, 2012: The LRIP Lot III contract was definitized for 11 aircraft. February 2013: Live Fire Test and Evaluation was completed.
March 2013: The P-8A Poseidon successfully completed Initial Operational Test and Evaluation (IOT&E). July 2013: The IOT&E report released by Commander, Operational Test and Evaluation Force rated the P-8A as operationally effective, operationally suitable, and recommended Fleet introduction.

July 15, 2013: In order to maintain fleet transition rates, the USD (AT&L) approved a change to the P-8A Acquisition Strategy to add a fourth lot of 13 LRIP aircraft in FY 2013. July 30, 2013: The LRIP Lot IV contract was definitized for 13 aircraft.
September 2013: Integrated testing of deficiency corrections and the Harpoon Anti-Surface Warfare weapon integration were successfully completed.

December 2013: The P-8A achieved IOC and commenced first Fleet operational deployment.

January 3, 2014: The USD(AT&L) signed the FRP ADM approving the FRP decision.

February 2014: The Australian government announced its plan to purchase eight P-8A aircraft and supporting infrastructure. February 25, 2014: The FRP I (Lot V) contract was definitized for 16 aircraft.

August 14, 2014: USN awarded the P-8A FRP II (Lot VI) AAC for AP funding for 8 USN and 4 Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) aircraft. Contract value is $295.6M.


As you can see, around the time the Indian order was firmed up, the company (Boeing and its partners) and the US Government were likely in talks about Advanced Procurement for Full Rate production lots, while AP for first Low rate lots was already in place (for 2010 deliveries). Similarly, the US Government was engaged in talks with the OEM, and also a foreign partner (Australia) and was defining and paying for the next increment of the spiral development program.
Last edited by brar_w on 03 Sep 2018 18:43, edited 1 time in total.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19640
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 03 Sep 2018 17:59

A sister ship of the Vikrant-2 would be the simplest solution.Same class of aircraft operating from it in the MIG-29K/Rafale M mould, with larger lifts for any future type ( naval AMCA, etc.).Since we laready have all the plans available, a slight stretch may be possible power plant reqs. will havd to be enhanced.NLCAs when available could also operate from it.

A CDG design would mean a third type to support, a maintenance nightmare. Even the Chins are building clones of the Varyag first.Post 2025 depending upon the dhape of carrier warfare and aviation a call can be taken
for the next series of flat tops.Until then leveraging as said before with the amphibs as light/ aux multi-role " carriers" by the deck design and/ or building a Vikrant sister ship should suffice.Acquiring supersonic maritime strike Backfires operating from our unsinkable " INS India", along with enhanced land based LRMPs and fighters, would give us clear dominance of the IOR, our primary goal .This also requires enhancing the sub fleet hugely , a higher priority.

Eric Thompson
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 03 Sep 2011 04:48
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Eric Thompson » 04 Sep 2018 00:08

Reportedly Russia is offering deep ToT on Amur nuke subs along with Kalibr for Project-75I.

mody
BRFite
Posts: 405
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby mody » 04 Sep 2018 14:46

Eric Thompson wrote:Reportedly Russia is offering deep ToT on Amur nuke subs along with Kalibr for Project-75I.


The same amur class subs that the russians themselves have rejected?

Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 149
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kersi » 04 Sep 2018 14:52

Eric Thompson wrote:Reportedly Russia is offering deep ToT on Amur nuke subs along with Kalibr for Project-75I.


Russia offering ToT :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9296
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Yagnasri » 04 Sep 2018 17:09

Amur is not SSN. It is a SSK. Right?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19640
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 04 Sep 2018 17:17

Naughty boy K! Our Arihant class SSBNs owe a lot to the Rus.Amur prod. has restarted but the RuN are acquiring Kilos perhaps because they're better suited to Pacific ops
Yes, they're conv. boats, but Ru has offered a nrw custom designed SSN for the IN's 6 planned SSNs with full proprietary rights for a design fee , all to be built here.

Amur single-hulled, Kilos double-hulled.Amurs will most probably come with a BMos VLS plug.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2668
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 04 Sep 2018 17:49

Kersi wrote:
Eric Thompson wrote:Reportedly Russia is offering deep ToT on Amur nuke subs along with Kalibr for Project-75I.


Russia offering ToT :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Deep tot :roll:

Whatever that is !

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5973
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 04 Sep 2018 17:52

Yagnasri wrote:Amur is not SSN. It is a SSK. Right?

Yes

Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 149
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kersi » 04 Sep 2018 18:30

kit wrote:
Kersi wrote:
Russia offering ToT :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Deep tot :roll:

Whatever that is !


One meaning, you take the money the tell teh customer to %$#@ off

I too have never heard of a Russian deep ToT. (Apologies to Philip :) :) :) )

John
BRFite
Posts: 1854
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 04 Sep 2018 21:39

Rakesh wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:Amur is not SSN. It is a SSK. Right?

Yes

More or less failed design, Russian admiral openly went on media and criticized the domestic version-Lada. Forcing a redesign, as a result the new redesigned Lada is still stuck in development purgatory.


Amur single-hulled, Kilos double-hulled.Amurs will most probably come with a BMos VLS plug.

Philip please don't bring this flame bait we discussed over and over again there was no such as thing as Amur with Brahmos VLS plug, it was simply model put out to get IN to take Amur and 2000 Ton SSK cannot handle 8 Brahmos missiles unless you want to hook it upto to a tug and have it pull it around. Also IN doesn't want VLS launch Brahmos, the plan is to use Brahmos-M thru torpedo tubes.

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9296
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Yagnasri » 04 Sep 2018 22:10

We can bye some advance version of Kilos and done with it.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2668
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 04 Sep 2018 22:50

Kilos are dated designs , it works fine but we are talking about a decade from now., the design needs to be at least contemporary., The Swedes have good designs btw

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63610
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 04 Sep 2018 23:44

The redoubtable a26 yasen killer is pptx only
No funds to make even one

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19640
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 05 Sep 2018 13:12

A VLS plug gives you extra weaponry.If you use an snti-ship missile fired from tubes like Klub which we have, you
then have less torpedoes in a std.18 weapon loadout.A VLS plug for around 8 to 10 missiles would be extra, a definite advantage.VLS plugs for both Kilos and Amurs havd been designed but not built as the Ru AIP system has not been perfected/ installed as yet on a sub.The additional VLS plug would increase size and require a more powerful plant.

With our planned 6 SSNs , true blue water ops of 90 day patrols will allow conv.AIP subs with their endurance for 45 to 60 days max for std. patrols in the IOR.If we establish a sub base in the ANC, we can then operate even AIP subs in the ICS and ASEAN waters.Pak will possess 8 new AIP Chin subs plus its AIP Agosta 90B fleet.We will need double that no. to sanitise the Arabian Sea and dominate the IOR which will also have Chin subs operating in it on a regular basis out of Paki ports like the planned solely naval base at Jiwani.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11005
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Gagan » 05 Sep 2018 19:33

nam wrote:Does anyone have an idea of the current status of OPVs been built at Reliance Shipyard?

They have made a mess of what would have opened up the private sector for large ship contracts.

Pipavav Industries made a big mess, built 2 incomplete ships before going bust, stopping construction altogether.
Then Chota Bhai took over, renamed it Reliance Defence and Engineering LTD, renotiated the timelines with the Navy and was speedily contructing the ships.
The company has since been renamed Reliance Naval and Engineering LTD.

So many naamkarans have happened. Their website says the following:
RNAVAL (formerly Reliance Defence and Engineering Limited / Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering Company Limited) is in the process of design and construction of five Naval Offshore Patrol Vessels for the Ministry of Defence.

Production of first two vessels has commenced and pre-production activities for the other three ships are already in progress.
Image


In 2017 they delivered the initial two NOPVs to the IN - INS Shachi and INS Shruti - Project 21.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 788359.ece
Image
Image

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11005
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Gagan » 05 Sep 2018 20:20

The design was changed midway - from a 2000 ton 20 Kt boat to a 1500 ton 25 Kt boat, as talks with Severnoye Design Bereau broke down.There was a design partner change midway, then Pipavav went bankrupt and Reliance - chota bhai, acquired it.

These two ships are fitting out and are scheduled to be commissioned this year, rest by 2020.
The latest news is that Chota Bhai has resigned as the head of this company - so maybe another round of delays

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11005
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Gagan » 05 Sep 2018 20:26

Also Alcock Ashdown Gujarat Ltd, which was supposed to build 6 survey ships of the INS Makar Class, never built more than one.
Image
Image

The shipyard is located here: 21.803504, 72.155476
One can see 5 unfinished hulls rusting in the mud to this day. The first vessel was delivered in 2009, the last vessel was to be delivered by 2013.

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2982
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby arshyam » 05 Sep 2018 21:37

No wonder MoD is hesitant to give orders to the private sector. But L&T has been very reliable and needs to be brought up the value chain. Looking forward to the day I can drive past a few u/c destroyer hulls at Kattupalli. One can dream, right? :)

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2830
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 05 Sep 2018 23:04

AAGL was never fully privatized though they had divestment plans for years. In fact, the Gujurati gov just declared Ashcock defunct and is closing down the yard. This happened a few weeks ago, let me find a link. So not a private industry black mark.

I don’t understand how you can deliver one vessel out if six and then stop. I mean the lead ship is in the Navy and doing good work. How can a process that delivered suddenly grind to a halt?

The whole project was worth around $1b. Was the MOD not releasing funds to AAG? There is money on the table forcthese.

The whole affair worries me.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1576
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 05 Sep 2018 23:13

Gagan wrote:
These two ships are fitting out and are scheduled to be commissioned this year, rest by 2020.
The latest news is that Chota Bhai has resigned as the head of this company - so maybe another round of delays


Yeah, the last I read when the first two ships were floated, that the remaining ones would be floated this year.Also the first two were promised delivery by mid this year. Nothing happened.

The company has a large NPA as well. When they have orders they cannot deliver. Just L&T doing good does not help, as MoD will never get in to single vendor situation.

GoI should alteast share some of our ship designs with L&T, so that they can try for export orders. PSU shipyard should be asked to sub-contractor some parts from private shipyard.

The whole mess is killing our only hope of speeding up ship building.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brar_w, Nitesh, Parikshit, ravikr and 36 guests